The Legend of the Galactic Heroes

[Commander 598]

Personally I like Mittermeyer's / Gale Wolf's ship the best.

I just saw Fortress vs Fortress. I hope the Empire takes Iserlohn back ...

EDIT: oh fuck you, Yang.

Well, it's Lohengramm's fault. He should've sent Mittermeyer.

Whatever could've happened at Iserlohn would be beneficial for Reinhard. It's a win for him no matter what.
Spoiler

Either it gets retaken and the Alliance loses control of the corridor, it gets destroyed and the Alliance loses control of the corridor, or the Alliance throws it's best Admiral and various resources out to save their control of the corridor and their ability to defend/monitor the other corridor becomes nearly nonexistent. Various Potential Bonuses: Extra fortress, Doesn't lose a loyal Admiral, Destruction/Capture/Fracturing of Team Yang

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Spoiler

I got the impression that much of Reinhard's willingness to go along with the Fortress vs Fortress plan was because of the good chance Geiersburg would be lost in the process. Note that his very first plan was to simply ram it into Iserlohn to destroy both. I think Geiersburg's very existence reminded him of Kircheis's loss and he took it something personal against the fortress itself.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I watched the first of the movies in this series earlier, "My Conquest is a Sea of Stars". It was both made and set slightly before the start of the series. I think it works very well as a starting point to the series, better than the first episode of the show at least. Aside from the absence of convenient name-tags for everyone as the show has, it's at least somewhat superior in every way. Anyone starting the show who hasn't yet should check out the movie first, in my eyes.

Along that regard, having now seen the entire series, I find it pretty amazing how much the show improves as it progresses. Where in the first couple of episodes scenes that are supposed to be tragic and dramatic end somewhat hilarious, by the end of the series the simple start of a piece of music can bring me to tears. Granted, much if not most of that is due to greater involvement with the characters and plots, but the show still shows strong improvements as time goes on. And since the show starts out as pretty good, that's saying something.

[Vympel]

I just saw the conclusion of the Battle of Vermillion. It was surprising to see things turned around like that and have
Spoiler

Reinhard appear to be on the verge of defeat, only to have Mariendorf save his life and secure his victory by convincing Mittermeyer and Reuental to take the FPA capital. It was brilliant how it gave both Yang Wenli and Reinhard von Lohengramm both a sort of inferiority complex - Yang Wenli won the tactical victory, Lohengramm the strategic.

It's pretty obvious that Spoiler

Reuental will try and rebel, of course. And fail.

[scythewielder]

@Grandmaster Jogurt:
Oh, I would certainly agree. Incidentally...have you seen the second movie?

It was made later, obviously, but also plays a similar role in terms of providing a better introduction to the show and actually re-animates the first couple of episodes while adding a fair amount of very interesting foreshadowing and a decent bit of fleshing out for a few characters that didn't really get to do much the first time around. You can find it easily enough by this point in time.

Spoiler

Reinhard appear to be on the verge of defeat, only to have Mariendorf save his life and secure his victory by convincing Mittermeyer and Reuental to take the FPA capital. It was brilliant how it gave both Yang Wenli and Reinhard von Lohengramm both a sort of inferiority complex - Yang Wenli won the tactical victory, Lohengramm the strategic.

That's probably one of my favorite moments in the entire series.

In addition to what it eventually does lead to, there's a sizable list of potential divergences stemming from any of the different outcomes.

It's pretty obvious that Spoiler

Reuental will try and rebel, of course. And fail.

Spoiler

Sure...but what makes the whole thing interesting is how that comes to pass. And it's definitely worthwhile if I may say so myself, even after originally doubting that the idea could ever work.

[Jusu]

Having been introduced to this series by a very good friend, I'd say that it holds a special place in my anime-loving heart. Right next to the first Macross, Crest/Banner of the Stars, and Gundam: 08th MS Team. Why? It is one of the most well-written and beautiful series I've seen. The moe-blob attack that has become the last few seasons have made me shy away from Anime, but I keep rewatching the series by various means.

As for the characters, I've always been a fan of the redshirts. Marines and ODST in Halo, Rebel/Imperial Stormtroopers/Clone Troopers in the Star Wars franchise, the standard Feddie soldier in Gundam. So when the show gave shoutouts to the regular soldier, I was beside myself in joy. Then they brought on characters that were easy to be loved and hated, and how the war was less showing one side being good or bad, but exposing the good and bad of both sides. (Minus the Terra Cult, they're plain jackasses).

As for the ships? I like the designs of the standard, non-hero Battlships. Spoiler

And it was amusing to see one, the Ulysses (913-D) turn into a hero ship when Jullian took command. Gotta love lucky ships eh? Took a hit to the deck with the toilets.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

@Grandmaster Jogurt:
Oh, I would certainly agree. Incidentally...have you seen the second movie?

It was made later, obviously, but also plays a similar role in terms of providing a better introduction to the show and actually re-animates the first couple of episodes while adding a fair amount of very interesting foreshadowing and a decent bit of fleshing out for a few characters that didn't really get to do much the first time around. You can find it easily enough by this point in time.

I have. I didn't realise it was a remake of that material at first; when I was watching it and it got to the point just before the first episode, I was thinking that was a short 90min. But then I looked and it was only halfway through the movie! It portrays those events much better than the first two episodes and the setup in the first half of the movie improves it even more.

At this point anyone I'm recommending the show to I tell to watch My Conquest is a Sea of Stars, then Overture to a New War, then to start the show from episode 3. You miss a few things from episodes 1 and 2 that way, but aside from the fact that Iserlohn has a giant laser, it's nothing big. Plus, if you watch the movies, you already get more screen time for the two gunners on the Brünhild and the two pilots, whose scenes are cut from the second movie.

[Vympel]

Where can you get them from? I've had no success finding anything else but the show and some other things which I don't know what they are off the top of my head. Gaiden something.

Why would you skip two episodes though? Episode 1 has the Astate encounter.

[Jusu]

Eh, I believe by skipping, they mean to say there are a net upgrade in terms of plot and whatnot. I did feel the series was somethign where you hit the ground running and only slowed to a jog or a fast paced walk at times. But I agree, I wouldn't skip the first few episodes, if the producers feel that the series should start off form there, they will. I'm guessing it was to help gain an audience.

[Uraniun235]

Why would you skip two episodes though? Episode 1 has the Astate encounter.

Overture to a New War covers the same material as episodes 1 and 2, including Astate; it emphasizes some of the material more (like the romance between Jean and Jessica) and some of it less.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

The very beginning of LotGH starts off pretty rough compared to the rest of the stuff. Of myself and two people I've introduced the series to, I ended up laughing at a lot of parts the show was intending the opposite effect for, one friend spent the first while complaining about the art quality before finally deciding the show was okay, and the other friend stopped watching entirely after the first episode due to how he felt the strategy was handled (I think that was just something he threw out as a reason, but he obviously didn't like it at the time). Since the two movies are of better quality than the first two episodes, I feel it's a better way to give a good first impression of the show.

[Commander 598]

and the other friend stopped watching entirely after the first episode due to how he felt the strategy was handled (I think that was just something he threw out as a reason, but he obviously didn't like it at the time)

People just seem to hate that for some reason. Armchair Admiralty I guess.

[Vympel]

People just seem to hate that for some reason. Armchair Admiralty I guess.

Weird. How would they like the strategy to be handled?

I have problems with the series, for example fighters can destroy capital ships with ridiculous ease, but they're very minor and really have nothing to do with why its so damn good.

[Commander 598]

Well, it's really early and all the technology and politics haven't really been explained so maybe that has something to do with it. The Alliance went in overconfident (Even despite facing the same enemy commander that sent them running at Legmiza) and burdened with the logistics of being far from a supply base and only having three competent tacticians that would actually voice their opinion amongst the lot of them, but, IIRC, this isn't all that apparent unless you see Overture and to a lesser extent Spiral Labyrinth...or continue watching.

I have problems with the series, for example fighters can destroy capital ships with ridiculous ease, but they're very minor and really have nothing to do with why its so damn good.

Well, capital ships get destroyed with ridiculous ease by just about everything and those fighters are actually pretty big. :p
Spoiler

They actually maneuver themselves under the ship's shield coverage or that they deliver more than sufficient power to overwhelm them at literally point blank range since aside from about one single incident they've only been useful at extreme ranges, are useless against non-energy based weapons, and they don't uniformly cover the hull.

[Uraniun235]

I think there are a couple of instances where we see ships at practically point-blank range bouncing shots off each other's shields, with the front shield arcs flaring up. Additionally we've seen one instance of a pair of fleet flagships passing each other, exchanging broadside fire as they pass, and them zooming away with minimal damage inflicted; note that these were pretty much the opening shots of the battle.

I'm inclined to suspect that the scenes where frontal fire completely shreds the enemy ship comes down to one of three events:

- the defeated ship is smaller than the victorious ship (those little destroyers and cruisers are small compared to the fleet flagships)

- the defeated ship has already sustained numerous hits and what we're seeing is effectively the killing blow

- the victorious ship got lucky (maybe for every hit there's a 1 in 10 change that the shields just completely fail to deflect or absorb it?)


Alternately, it seems like the shields mostly deflect beams rather than absorb or cancel them completely, so maybe what's happening on a shield failure is the beam is coming in too straight for the shield to deflect away from the ship.


The characters or narration never explain the shields - in fact, I don't think anyone even ever mentions shields at all. Which is fine by me.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Fighters that destroy capital ships fire at point blank range, against the weaker sides of ships, and, I'm pretty sure, usually targeting cruisers and smaller. All the kills against carriers and battleships that I can remember target weak spots like fueled-up fighters and missiles. Actually, I think even the kill via missile was against a cruiser. Have we seen any battleships killed by fighters?

The only time I remember point-blank fire doing minimal damage was in the opening of My Conquest is the Sea of Stars. In there, not only was it two heavily-armoured flagships firing, but it was in the atmosphere, and it's noted that the atmosphere is soaking up a lot of the energy from their weapons fire. There also weren't any shields, but that was the first battle animated in the series so it could just be a stylistic inconsistency.

And yeah, I also have some issues, like how their interstellar travel seems to shift back and forth between "just cruising like normal, but faster" and "teleportation", but they're nothing of note really when it comes to sizing up the show.

[Jusu]

Fighters that destroy capital ships fire at point blank range, against the weaker sides of ships, and, I'm pretty sure, usually targeting cruisers and smaller. All the kills against carriers and battleships that I can remember target weak spots like fueled-up fighters and missiles. Actually, I think even the kill via missile was against a cruiser. Have we seen any battleships killed by fighters?

The only time I remember point-blank fire doing minimal damage was in the opening of My Conquest is the Sea of Stars. In there, not only was it two heavily-armoured flagships firing, but it was in the atmosphere, and it's noted that the atmosphere is soaking up a lot of the energy from their weapons fire. There also weren't any shields, but that was the first battle animated in the series so it could just be a stylistic inconsistency.

And yeah, I also have some issues, like how their interstellar travel seems to shift back and forth between "just cruising like normal, but faster" and "teleportation", but they're nothing of note really when it comes to sizing up the show.

1) Yeah, they tend to go after fueled up fighters, smaller destoyers, and the like. The only actual time I could remember off the top of my head that an actual cruiser was killed by a fighter was:
Spoiler

Julian's first battle where he stuck like, 'I can touch your hull' close to an Imperial Cruiser, avoided being detected, and shot at two missiles that popped up and were being prepped to fire.

Otherwise, it takes capital ships to kill capital ships. Althoguh I'm not gonna discount battleships being killed by fighters. They can be disabled, and then groups can swarm em, especially standard battleships like the Ulysses types.

2) In terms of shielding, you see it here and there. The mod group that made the mod for Sins did include it, and in chance examples you would see it. I believe they're employed mainly by anything heavier than a cruiser and are only used to deflect/absorb glancing shots from far away. I'm pretty sure the Hyperion and Brunhild had one. Relying on memory, there might be a split second when the Hyperion moves back away from the front ranks in the Battle of Vermilion and you see a glancing shot get deflected. As well as when the:
Spoiler

Brunhild encounters AA fire from Uruvasi during actions that started Reuenthal's supposed rebellion. You see that none of the red effects showing AAA/AAG/AAL not even getting past a bubble-like 'shield' around the ship as it heads towards a lake to rescue Lohengramm. I don't know, I'm not willing to look through the vids now.

3) Yeah, that kinda is a problem, although one could imagine, if we took the various times we see star maps of the galaxy, those white lanes are not only fastest trade lanes between planets in Alliance territory, but also 'safe' warp lanes. Or that they cannot warp within a system, etc.. I could ask a friend if he's read the novels themselves, and maybe that would clear it up. Or not. FTL speed if not specified tend to run in the speed of plot.

[Uraniun235]

I can't remember if it was Overture to a New War or the second episode, but there's a scene where the Alliance fleet flagship Patroklos destroys one Imperial line battleship outright, then trades fire with another as it passes by at close range, and you can see the shields flare up on both ships as they volley before passing.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I just checked and it's in OtaNW.

They trade fire at point-blank with both ships deflecting. Then as they pass they scrape with no shields visible.

Considering the Patroklos just destroyed another battleship at similar range in its first volley, I'd say this might be because they didn't have time to recharge the guns enough. As to the Patroklos's survival, it's a flagship of one of the fleets, so it's probably better-defended than a normal battleship? It's also not being hit by many shots at a time, which might be a factor.

That being said, considering the scale of the battles in this show, I don't see any issue with all the one-shot-kills we see just being the director going "here's a final killing blow to set the scene". With tens of thousands of ships fighting in battles that can last days, there's certainly not a lack of opportunities for any kind of shot.

[Uraniun235]

Well, and it's also fairly consistent - in every battle we're seeing ships just get completely iced, so we know that fleet battles in this universe are brutal and bloody.

[Jusu]

Well, and it's also fairly consistent - in every battle we're seeing ships just get completely iced, so we know that fleet battles in this universe are brutal and bloody.

Brutal and bloody is the order of the day. The show loves to put emphasis on the normal soldier being shafted when their ship gets hit by fire.

Also, maybe the shields only deflect lasers? I don't exactly have the expertise to imagine the force excreted by thousands upon thousands of tons of ship being pushed by an engine that can have it escape the atmosphere of a gas giant (Alliance) or Earth-like planet (Imperial). But if you think of it that way. Going nose to nose and ramming each other with barely a significant dent/scraped armor goes to show you how strong those lasers gotta be to punch through that armor.

I dunno, I'm just speculating, anyone can see where I'm going with this?

[Ford Prefect]

I was under the impression that beam weapons, from their hand-held guns up to the starship cannons, were some kind of particle weapon. Though Thor's Hammer is is noted to be hard X-rays.

[Commander 598]

I was under the impression that beam weapons, from their hand-held guns up to the starship cannons, were some kind of particle weapon. Though Thor's Hammer is is noted to be hard X-rays.

It's never been outright stated but the few instances of actually giving names to things seems to have them as particle beams like here in the side stories:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b329/ ... 190754.jpg

[Jusu]

I've always been interested in their infantry combat. I understand the series places more emphasis on the human element of the space war, but in a way, one of the best indicators of that would be the numerous infantry battles. I noticed that when their common anime <nameofohgodwecan'tdostuff> particle is used, in this cased, Zephyr Particles, in infantry battles, they resort to battle axes and crossbows. But their laser weapons, including pistols and rifles, apparently use the same battery packs.

Going with the rule of cool, and feel free to shoot me down, what about rail weaponry? If they're able to make pistol-sized lasers, couldn't they had used rail weaponry instead of, apparently high-tensile crossbows when fighting in an area filled with Zephyr particles? Again, this is if we do role of cool and allow that in.

[Simon_Jester]

Man-portable laser weapons and electromagnetic coil/rail guns use different technology.

The most realistic ways for us to get laser handguns involve high density energy storage and solid state laser emitters, because big tanks of chemicals or high-density electron beams are too big to fit in a handgun. For railguns we need... dunno, probably superconducting magnets and, again, high density energy storage.

The energy storage capacity overlaps, but nothing else does. So it's quite possible that they have hand lasers but not hand railguns.

Now, why they don't use chemical firearms is beyond me, of course. But I haven't actually watched the series.