MTG vs Harry Potter universe

[ect562]

This isn't the usual forum introduction i'm accustomed to, but i guess i gotta start somewhere. somehow, i didn't think my first post on the "stardestroyer.net" forum would be in the fantasy section...

but i digress.

Anyway, this is a fairly esoteric (and particularly nerdy) discussion, so my apologies if you have no idea what mtg stands for, and you clicked on this thread and still have no idea what i'm talking about.

but for those of you who recognize my avatar, flock to my banner! this is a crossover i've always thought would be epic. though admittedly, i have never read any of the harry potter books, so i am no position to debate. just wanted to hear some thoughts from some comrades that wanted to raze hogwarts with an alien magic and end the atrocious muggle/wizard apartheid on earth

[Crazedwraith]

Dear godness, learn to use the shift key. Please

Also, am I to assume MTG means 'Magic: The Gathering'? The card game?

[ray245]

This isn't the usual forum introduction i'm accustomed to, but i guess i gotta start somewhere. somehow, i didn't think my first post on the "stardestroyer.net" forum would be in the fantasy section...

but i digress.

Anyway, this is a fairly esoteric (and particularly nerdy) discussion, so my apologies if you have no idea what mtg stands for, and you clicked on this thread and still have no idea what i'm talking about.

but for those of you who recognize my avatar, flock to my banner! this is a crossover i've always thought would be epic. though admittedly, i have never read any of the harry potter books, so i am no position to debate. just wanted to hear some thoughts from some comrades that wanted to raze hogwarts with an alien magic and end the atrocious muggle/wizard apartheid on earth

You have no bloody clue what is Harry Potter even about, and you want us to create a scenario for you?

[Formless]

Anyway, this is a fairly esoteric (and particularly nerdy) discussion, so my apologies if you have no idea what mtg stands for, and you clicked on this thread and still have no idea what i'm talking about.

Protip: Magic: the Gathering isn't that obscure, let alone esoteric. And even if it was, then you should give a quick description of it for those who do not know.

Also, it goes without saying, but if you want to propose a crossover/VS scenario please for the love of fuck don't do it with material you are unfamiliar with. If you intended for this to be a Harry Potter bashing fest you're in for a shock. Turns out a lot of folks like Harry Potter. Not that it would change the outcome of whatever scenario you propose, but you're going about things the wrong way regardless.

[Serafina]

Well, it is customary to actually SAY something about the scenario your are proposing.

But anyway, assuming that MTG brings it's planewalkers to bear (you know, what you actually play in the game, with the summoning and whatnot) they simply curb-stomp the HP-verse.
Really, it's like a comparision of "a single character from universe A against all the gods of universe B" - quite literary, since the planewalkers ARE gods.

Of course, they have absolutely no reason to stomp the HP-verse - it's much more likely that they would just use them as summons.
While that would make for a much more interesting szenario (HP-verse vs, say Mirrodin or Phyrexia), the HP-verse still lacks any large-scale combat capabilities and thus would be at a massive disadvantage.

[ect562]

Also, it goes without saying, but if you want to propose a crossover/VS scenario please for the love of fuck don't do it with material you are unfamiliar with. If you intended for this to be a Harry Potter bashing fest you're in for a shock. Turns out a lot of folks like Harry Potter. Not that it would change the outcome of whatever scenario you propose, but you're going about things the wrong way regardless.

My apologies, I wasn't asking for a bash fest. I started this thread with the intention of find the people that would know what they were talking about - originally this had been an idea for a fanfic that a few friends (two who had actually read the HP series) and I were going to write, but I have long since fallen out of touch with those friends. Obviously I couldn't do it without them. I haven't seen anyone propose this crossover before. I was looking more for an idea room than a flame war.

But what would be the MTG in-universe perspective on HP magic? Colorless magic augmented with artifice?

[Mayabird]

I am watching this thread. Stop sucking or I will be punting.
[line 2]

[Formless]

Really, it's like a comparision of "a single character from universe A against all the gods of universe B" - quite literary, since the planewalkers ARE gods.

They used to be, anyway-- after the Time Spiral block they had their immortality and a few other perks taken away. They are still quite powerful, though, but the comparison is more like an epic level wizard from DnD with the "planeswalk at will" ability and five color M:tG style spellcasting * .

So the question is, are we talking pre-Time Spiral era or post-Time Spiral era? If its pre-Time Spiral, there is little question that a dedicated planswalker could absolutely fuck up the plane we call Earth where Harry Potter resides due simply to their longevity. Urza for example dedicated his life to a millennia long cold war with Phyrexia, taking his sweet time to develop his technological, magical, and political prowess in preparation for a planet wide assault. I don't want to even think about what he or another planswalker could do to earth if given the chance to study Muggle technology, let alone the little secret society of magicians living in Britain and (presumably) other places scattered across the world.

Post-Time Spiral I can't comment on due to not really keeping up with things, but it would more depend on what faction decided to mess around with earth. In that case, I would imagine that the planswalkers would matter only as agents of a larger faction, selling their ability to travel the planes as a service (Jace Beleren, for example, works for the planer government of Ravinca).

* the upshot of this is we got a cool webcomic we can take apart to get a better feel for the magic of Magic at work.

[Formless]

But what would be the MTG in-universe perspective on HP magic? Colorless magic augmented with artifice?

Not necessarily-- in M:tG magic can be done by anyone with the right mindset, as accessing mana is a simple manner of meditating on one's memories of the land and then psychically manipulating it (rather Bhuddist-like, actually). In Harry Potter, on the other hand, magic appears to be an innate, genetically inheritable ability and wands are tools used to harness and focus that ability. From an M:tG standpoint, they would probably be seen as some kind of spellshapers with several local specialties.

[Coalition]

What I'd see is the HP crew suddenly shifted to another area, and they have to fight a series of critters. At random times, they find an artifact that boosts their abilities, and a senior wizard remaks that certain items are legendary, while others haven't been seen since the last Ice Age.

They pass through several adventures, trying to fight critters, and eventually realize that certain critters are being sent after them. They finally arrive at the citadel of the planeswalker, and kill him.

It then shifts to a pair of kids looking at each other, and one saying, "My wizard mercenaries killed you," while the other kid is sad due to being killed by a 1/1 card.

An alternate ending is where the HP crew realize that the planeswalker that made their lives a living hell is only one of many, and the others are starting to get interested in them.

Or, you could put together a HP deck using cards from here:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Searc ... e=+[wizard]

[ect562]

Okay, so obviously the two universes (or different parts of the multiverse?) have a pretty apparent disparity in strategic advantages, so let's level the playing field a bit. Let's throw a typical pyromancer (red ftw), not exceptional in any way, but still competent, in an arena with an equally typical HP wizard/witch. Who emerges as the victor?

[Serafina]

The "typical HP-wizard" (i am assuming adult here, not student) has some decent combat skills, but he lacks both determination to use and lethality of his tools. Most of the usefull spells in such a situation are usefull parlor tricks.
In fact, the one lethal spell we see was forbidden just for that reason and still less dangerous than a gun.

The pyromancer on the other hand should have access to lots and lots of lethal spells.
Right now i lack sufficient data on how fast he can cast them, their range, lethality etc. - but i think it is reasonable to assume that they would overwhelm most HP-wizards.

[ect562]

I would have to agree - but could we also assume that the Mtg-style mage needs time to "play his lands", so to speak? Could the HP wizard get him on the quick draw?

[mr friendly guy]

While the MTG wizards in the game needs to play the lands, the novels (Pre time spiral) they didn't seem to have such limitation except in Arena. Perhaps unlike the structured combat in areana, in other MTG battles the wizard has "prep time" and has his other lands already out to to speak.

I haven't read Harry Potter, however I have seen bits and pieces from the movies, and I can't imagine they would be able to do much against an MTG planewalker. I mean Voldy's killing curse. Counterspelled. Lets see how well HP characters do against an inferno or Wrath of God.

[Xon]

Wrt to M:TG, HP-wizards would make utterly crap offensive cards but awesome utility/buff cards.

You would have things like Time-turner artifacts which allow you to replay your turn provided you didn't change any items in play (ie attacking or blocking), enhantments which prevent a number of permanents form being the target of spells(because you need to know they exist to target them). Something like the Killing Curse would destroy any target creature unless you sacrifice a permanent, the Cruciatus Curse would be a massive stats debuff and Imperius Curse would allow taking over any creature.

Sure, counterspell could harm them but it would be easily enough to work them into M:TG. They just need some meatshields, and some hitters.

[Lord Relvenous]

While the MTG wizards in the game needs to play the lands, the novels (Pre time spiral) they didn't seem to have such limitation except in Arena. Perhaps unlike the structured combat in areana, in other MTG battles the wizard has "prep time" and has his other lands already out to to speak.

I haven't read Harry Potter, however I have seen bits and pieces from the movies, and I can't imagine they would be able to do much against an MTG planewalker. I mean Voldy's killing curse. Counterspelled. Lets see how well HP characters do against an inferno or Wrath of God.

There is no counterspell for the Killing Curse. That's why it's so bad. There are other spells that can kill, but they can be blocked. Avada Kedavra can't. Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

[Captain Seafort]

There is no counterspell for the Killing Curse. That's why it's so bad. There are other spells that can kill, but they can be blocked. Avada Kedavra can't. Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

First and third times, fair enough, but Goblet of Fire showed that the AK can be blocked. It simply takes the Potterverse equivalent of Star Trek's frequency trickery. The question is one of how easy that is to duplicate.

Of course, there's always the brute force solution, such as Dalek shields.

[Lord Relvenous]

There is no counterspell for the Killing Curse. That's why it's so bad. There are other spells that can kill, but they can be blocked. Avada Kedavra can't. Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

First and third times, fair enough, but Goblet of Fire showed that the AK can be blocked. It simply takes the Potterverse equivalent of Star Trek's frequency trickery. The question is one of how easy that is to duplicate.

Of course, there's always the brute force solution, such as Dalek shields.

I'm not expecting any of the MTG wizards to have the same core materials in their non-existent wands as the HP Wizards. Are you? Not to say that the HPverse would win this one, just thought I'd correct a misconception.

Also, IIRC, that wand thing is old magic. Or something.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm not expecting any of the MTG wizards to have the same core materials in their non-existent wands as the HP Wizards. Are you? Not to say that the HPverse would win this one, just thought I'd correct a misconception.

Also, IIRC, that wand thing is old magic. Or something.

I don't know nearly enough about MTG to argue one way or the other - I'm simply pointing out the GoF incident as it has a much better chance of being repeatable by your average mook than loving mothers or unique weapons.

[mr friendly guy]

While the MTG wizards in the game needs to play the lands, the novels (Pre time spiral) they didn't seem to have such limitation except in Arena. Perhaps unlike the structured combat in areana, in other MTG battles the wizard has "prep time" and has his other lands already out to to speak.

I haven't read Harry Potter, however I have seen bits and pieces from the movies, and I can't imagine they would be able to do much against an MTG planewalker. I mean Voldy's killing curse. Counterspelled. Lets see how well HP characters do against an inferno or Wrath of God.

There is no counterspell for the Killing Curse. That's why it's so bad. There are other spells that can kill, but they can be blocked. Avada Kedavra can't. Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

If you go down that route we end up arguing with a "no limits fallacy." Now the rules of magic are a bit strange, but if you are going to try and do analysis in fantasy, generally if a spell is more powerful (ie does more damage) and be countered, then it would seem that whatever brute force spell you use to counter it would also work on a weaker spell. So if an MTG infinite combo spell which hurts multiple targets can be countered, then a spell which only kills one person would seem to be susceptible to counterspell as well.

In any event didn't Dumbledore survive the killing curse by having his phoenix take the hit for him? And didn't his phoenix resurrect itself after. Just use one of the many redirect damage to a creature you control spell. Then inferno your HP wizards. Then just for kicks resurrect the destroyed creature with the multitude of resurrect spells in MTG.

[Captain Seafort]

In any event didn't Dumbledore survive the killing curse by having his phoenix take the hit for him? And didn't his phoenix resurrect itself after.

Good point. I think he also blocked a few shots by TK'ing various lumps of rock in front of him. The conclusion seems to be that it's only unblockable my readily available magic - solid objects (animate or inanimate) are an effective shield.

[Crazedwraith]

Technically he animated a bunch of statues to take the shots for him. It's possible they counted as 'Alive' for the purposes of AK.

[JLTucker]

Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

Harry reproduced the old magic at the end of Deathly Hallows.

“You won’t be killing anyone else tonight,” said Harry as they circled, and stared into each other’s eyes, green into red. “You won’t be able to kill any of them ever again. Don’t you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people—”

“But you did not!”

“—I meant to, and that’s what it did. I’ve done what my mother did. They’re protected from you. Haven’t you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can’t torture them. You can’t touch them. You don’t learn from your mistakes, Riddle, do you?”

[LadyTevar]

Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

Harry reproduced the old magic at the end of Deathly Hallows.

“You won’t be killing anyone else tonight,” said Harry as they circled, and stared into each other’s eyes, green into red. “You won’t be able to kill any of them ever again. Don’t you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people—”

“But you did not!”

“—I meant to, and that’s what it did. I’ve done what my mother did. They’re protected from you. Haven’t you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can’t torture them. You can’t touch them. You don’t learn from your mistakes, Riddle, do you?”

Sacrificing your own life (or being willing too) is one of the oldest Magics in the book. See Yahyah's request for Abraham to sacrifice his son to prove his worth. Is it surprising that a sacrifice for a loved one would work that way?

Even MTG knows this. Why else would you have so many cards that state "Sacrifice (this card) to do (x)"?

[Norade]

Harry survived it multiple times due to unreproducible wank writer's fiat old magic.

Harry reproduced the old magic at the end of Deathly Hallows.

“You won’t be killing anyone else tonight,” said Harry as they circled, and stared into each other’s eyes, green into red. “You won’t be able to kill any of them ever again. Don’t you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people—”

“But you did not!”

“—I meant to, and that’s what it did. I’ve done what my mother did. They’re protected from you. Haven’t you noticed how none of the spells you put on them are binding? You can’t torture them. You can’t touch them. You don’t learn from your mistakes, Riddle, do you?”

Sacrificing your own life (or being willing too) is one of the oldest Magics in the book. See Yahyah's request for Abraham to sacrifice his son to prove his worth. Is it surprising that a sacrifice for a loved one would work that way?

Even MTG knows this. Why else would you have so many cards that state "Sacrifice (this card) to do (x)"?

Out of universe, to balance abilities and to create combinations with other cards.

In universe there could be many reasons, theme of the card, to use their life force as power, because the creature goes jihad style and explodes in the enemies face.