Andromeda Systems Commonwealth vs Galactic Empire

[Captain Kruger]

What was it that other ship they encountered in Andromeda (the gold one) used to destroy that planet in Andromeda, when they found the ship and that it had been sitting there for 300 years just like Dylan was at the black hole. It refused an order and destroyed the planet somehow.

It wasn't technically a weapon. The ship's AI overloaded her slipstream core and dumped it on the planet, blowing it to bits.

[His Divine Shadow]

The US is launching the next generation of space telescopes in 2005 that will not only detect Earth-like planets in other solar systems, but also tell what their atmospheres are composed of (oxygen is an indicator of life since it doesn't exist in its diatomic form since it's highly reactive without biological processes replenishing it) within a hundred light-years from Earth. So, we have proof that even light speed sensors can detect habitable planets from long distances away. CW ships don't have to travel to every star system in the galaxy for its scouting mission.

*chuckle*
No, they'll just get visual readings of the Old Republic about the same time as it was starting...

[His Divine Shadow]

It must tears you up inside for SW to lose its speed advantage. If the SW galaxy and CW galaxy is in the same universe, the paths will be there. Slipstream pilots have successfully traveled to star systems that they have never been before without being delayed to months/years in their journey.

No but they were quite delayed at any rate and it's hard to travel on virgin territory, the galaxy they went to was inhabited too and destroyed by the Magog's world ship, wich was slipstream powered, ergo, it was already ridden in.

Now this galaxy on the other hand has no slipstream usage whatsoever, they are going to have to start from the beginning again, like in the early days of slipstream travel.

Besides hyperdrive is superior at any rate for intra-galactic travel, requrires no organics and is reliable and therefore allows for more complex and timed strategies.

[Crossover_Maniac]

It must tears you up inside for SW to lose its speed advantage. If the SW galaxy and CW galaxy is in the same universe, the paths will be there. Slipstream pilots have successfully traveled to star systems that they have never been before without being delayed to months/years in their journey.

No but they were quite delayed at any rate and it's hard to travel on virgin territory, the galaxy they went to was inhabited too and destroyed by the Magog's world ship, wich was slipstream powered, ergo, it was already ridden in.

Now this galaxy on the other hand has no slipstream usage whatsoever, they are going to have to start from the beginning again, like in the early days of slipstream travel.

And just where did you get travel times of months/years in virgin slipstreams across a galaxy. Slipstream drives depend on the pilot, and the High Guard will only put their best pilots in the driver seat. But even those that are unlucky can travel between galaxies within a period of weeks or months, while good pilots can make the time in minutes. I would like to know where you get the idea that travel time for slipstream goes from minutes to hours of distances in the 1E6-1E7 light year range to years in 1E5 light years. That's the sort of performance you get from pilots in garbage scows in the Andromeda Universe. Even if slipstream pilot performance was only 1% of what it is in SW galaxy. That's still covering distances of 1E4-1E5 light years in minutes to hours, still faster than any hyperdrive the Empire has.

Besides hyperdrive is superior at any rate for intra-galactic travel, requrires no organics and is reliable and therefore allows for more complex and timed strategies.

Travel time means 'the time it takes to get from A to B' even if you go to Y, T, and L before getting there. And slipstream pilots will get to their destination eventually and quicker than the Imperial in their hyperdrive. Of course, Imperial ships don't need organic to pilot their ships, which is why they lost a fleet of 200 dreadnoughts in Dark Force Rising when the crew died and the ships' slave circuit kicked in their hyperdrive engines. And if they CW really did need to launch crafts without organics, all they have to do is graft brain cells onto an AI like a race of AI's did in the episode The Sum of Its Parts. and to top the ISD hyperdrive, the Slipstream engines, when overloaded and ejected from its ship, can destroy a planet just like the Death Star. Can the Executioner or even the Eclipse come even close to that?

[His Divine Shadow]

And just where did you get travel times of months/years in virgin slipstreams across a galaxy.

Nowhere, thats your invention.

Slipstream drives depend on the pilot,

Hence why they are not very usefull for strategies depending on accurate timing.

I would like to know where you get the idea that travel time for slipstream goes from minutes to hours of distances in the 1E6-1E7 light year range to years in 1E5 light years.

Thats something you mentioned, I've never even said anything about travel time whatsoever(except that it would be slower).

Even if slipstream pilot performance was only 1% of what it is in SW galaxy. That's still covering distances of 1E4-1E5 light years in minutes to hours, still faster than any hyperdrive the Empire has.

Proof? Calculations? Anything? The latest hyperdrives can travel from the core to the edge of the galaxy in hours and thats travelling outside known hyperlanes.

Travel time means 'the time it takes to get from A to B' even if you go to Y, T, and L before getting there. And slipstream pilots will get to their destination eventually and quicker than the Imperial in their hyperdrive.

Ofcourse that will be hard to know anyway because the slipstream system depends so much on luck.
Anyhow the Empire has enough ships to be able to bring a sufficient force to almost any system in moments.

Of course, Imperial ships don't need organic to pilot their ships, which is why they lost a fleet of 200 dreadnoughts in Dark Force Rising when the crew died and the ships' slave circuit kicked in their hyperdrive engines.

The crew went insane and hijacked the fleet, the hyperdrive didn't go off by itself, that was the crews work, before they died.

And if they CW really did need to launch crafts without organics, all they have to do is graft brain cells onto an AI like a race of AI's did in the episode The Sum of Its Parts.

And this technology is accesible to the CW how exactly?

and to top the ISD hyperdrive, the Slipstream engines, when overloaded and ejected from its ship, can destroy a planet just like the Death Star. Can the Executioner or even the Eclipse come even close to that?

Can the ship even survive long enough to get that close to a planet is a better question.

[Crossover_Maniac]

And just where did you get travel times of months/years in virgin slipstreams across a galaxy.

Nowhere, thats your invention.

Actually, that was started by Grand Admiral Thrawn and repeated you you.

Grand Admiral Thrawn:

FTL.

CW takes it. However isn't SlipStream harder in less traveled routes? That could be a problem.

You

A) For fast slipstream travel you need not just a good pilot, but also need a path thats been "ridden in", going through "virgin" territory with the slipstream will quickly remove it's plus points.

Slipstream drives depend on the pilot,

Hence why they are not very usefull for strategies depending on accurate timing.

And yet, they managed to run an intergalactic (not interstellar) civilization and fight an intergalactic intergalactic war using slipstream. Also, a pilot for one ship can guide a convoy of ships through slipstream and all come out at the same place. The nature of slipstream is once a choice is made, the choice is usually right, depending on the pilot.

I would like to know where you get the idea that travel time for slipstream goes from minutes to hours of distances in the 1E6-1E7 light year range to years in 1E5 light years.

Thats something you mentioned, I've never even said anything about travel time whatsoever.

No, but Dead on Arrival did:

There are no such 'paths' in the SW galaxy, and all Slipstream travel will be signifantly slower than normal...with speeds comparable to SW Hyperdrive.

Travel time means 'the time it takes to get from A to B' even if you go to Y, T, and L before getting there. And slipstream pilots will get to their destination eventually and quicker than the Imperial in their hyperdrive.

Ofcourse that will be hard to know anyway because the slipstream system depends so much on luck.
Anyhow the Empire has enough ships to be able to bring a sufficient force to almost any system in moments.

And in the event sufficient force does come (remember, Dylan stated there are 100,000 ships in the High Guard, so the Imperials can be outnumbered), the High Guard can slipstream to easier targets.

Of course, Imperial ships don't need organic to pilot their ships, which is why they lost a fleet of 200 dreadnoughts in Dark Force Rising when the crew died and the ships' slave circuit kicked in their hyperdrive engines.

The crew went insane and hijacked the fleet, the hyperdrive didn't go off by itself, that was the crews work, before they died.

Oops! Sorry.

And if they CW really did need to launch crafts without organics, all they have to do is graft brain cells onto an AI like a race of AI's did in the episode The Sum of Its Parts.

And this technology is accesible to the CW how exactly?

Harper's brain is hard-wired for linking up with computers and AI's, not to mention modern technology can graft nerve cells to silicon chips. The ability to do so is there, but considering it was never done, it's safe to say the CW wants their ships manned.

and to top the ISD hyperdrive, the Slipstream engines, when overloaded and ejected from its ship, can destroy a planet just like the Death Star. Can the Executioner or even the Eclipse come even close to that?

Can the ship even survive long enough to get that close to a planet is a better question.

Then the ship will just Nova Bomb the system and clear out.

[His Divine Shadow]

Actually, that was started by Grand Admiral Thrawn and repeated you.

I only said that it would slow slipstream travel down, according to allsystems.org that is true and apparently, little used paths can even be unsafe sometimes.

And yet, they managed to run an intergalactic (not interstellar) civilization and fight an intergalactic war using slipstream.

Against a foe that had the exact same drawbacks though, what I am saying is that the imps have it easier since hyperspace is more predictable and easier to travel along.

Also, a pilot for one ship can guide a convoy of ships through slipstream and all come out at the same place. The nature of slipstream is once a choice is made, the choice is usually right, depending on the pilot.

I know.

And in the event sufficient force does come (remember, Dylan stated there are 100,000 ships in the High Guard, so the Imperials can be outnumbered), the High Guard can slipstream to easier targets.

The imperials are outnumbered if you go soley by the imperial navy and it's ISD's(25.000, and the navy seems to be a separate part of the starfleet itself), but there is much more going on ofcourse than just the ISD's.

Also, local defense millitas for the outer rim planets come into play too(but they got nothing much more than a few converted freighters and old fighters anyway), the DS1 took the resources of 20 sectors, out of over 1000 sectors in the empire.
By the way, thats 480 ISDs, 32.000 combat ships, and 16.000 support ships in 20 sectors.

Now if the Empire has 1000 sectors(it has more actually) then it's total fleet is around 480.000 ISD's, 32.000.000 combatships(varying from corvettes to cruisers) and 16.000.000 support ships.
Total fleet size 32.4 million ships and 16 million support ships.

Thats the probable fleet size, it still leaves 8-9 million worlds without ships or protection barring their local defense fleets, but patrolling of ships to such worlds a couple of times a week will keep the secure.

Ofcourse if we wish to assume that the 25.000 number actually applies to the entire starfleet over the whole galaxy(for purposes of low-end figures) and use it to calculate an alternate fleetsize well then we get 16.24.000 combat ships and 800.000 support ships.

Either way, the empire seems to outnumber the CW.

Then the ship will just Nova Bomb the system and clear out.

What I wonder is how they can even come that far when they are quite likely to be detected upon entry?

Nearly systems have atleast a Frigate class ship(or cruisers) visiting once a day or one that is within <1 hours travel time away.
Plus even the most run down systems in the galaxy have their own planetary defense forces, probably only corvettes or freighters with guns, but they have the edge in suprise attacks and could help in stalling the attack, even so I expect the first few attacks to be successfull, but after that, every system and ship will be on full alert.

[Renewed_Valour1]

and this was mentioned when? Size?

It was mentioned in several episodes and All Systems. The Nietzschean attack fleet itself was only a small portion of the available Home Guard forces. We've seen the self-defense fleets of former Commonwealth members like the Castalians tend to consist of about 20 cutters with various numbers of fighters and patrol craft. Considering these worlds were heavily beat up during the rebellion their Home Guard though badly beaten up probably became the basis for their fleets. So when you figure all the members of the Commonwealth you have a lot of cutters and a ton of fighters for the Home Guard.

And all the Nietzshean and CW worlds were nova bombed in the Fall. Oh wait, they weren't.

The Nietzscheans didn't have any nova bombs their standard planet killer was a maxim charge. The High Guard was so devastated in the initial steps of their plan that they never really became enough of a threat until the started to recover toward the Battle of Witchhead to really threaten the Nietzscheans. Furthermore in "The Mathematics of Tears" none of the present crew were surprised when the Pax told them that the Nietzscheans blew up the planet so they may very well have blown up some planets.

The Commonwealth on the other hand had very few planets that they could strike at. Most of the planets the Nietzscheans took control of were largely made up of loyal Commonwealth citizens under Nietzschean occupation. The Nietzscheans were largely a minority on most planets. Even then the entire point of the Battle of Witchhead was for the High Guard to organize to launch a strike to take out Fountainhead the Nietzschean capitol. Even then despite the loss of the battle Witchhead was destroyed.

Yet the Andromeda was able to navigate Slipstream without one.

If you want to call what she did navigating. She randomly jumped in and out of slipstream for six months. Eventually she happened to jump into one of the 6 galaxies of the Commonwealth. The Empire isn't going to be winning much of a war if their accuracy in slipstream is a span of six galaxies and it takes them 6 months to find one of them.

A) For fast slipstream travel you need not just a good pilot, but also need a path thats been "ridden in", going through "virgin" territory with the slipstream will quickly remove it's plus points.

Beka made a jump from Castalia Orion Arm of the Milyway to Tera Zed in the Triangulum galaxy. She described the route as a hardly ever used rabbit hole rather than a slipstream route. The planet they were going to preferred an isolationist policy and maintained a tight lid on anyone knowing they existed. Very few vessels slipstreamed in or out of the system and the slip path looked like an undeveloped one. It took her about 2 or 3 minutes of piloting time to make that jump. A skilled pilot can still blaxe through virgin territory faster than a hyperdrive equipped vessel can.

C) Entire star systems can be cut off somehow from Slipstream.

By tesseracting it into an entirely separate shadow dimension which the Vedrans and the SoA can only achieve. It also cuts it off from real space and any other means to reach it or detect it. Meaning hyperspace wouldn't get you to it either. Though you gave me an idea with a little preparation time the Vedrans could simply tesseract a good portion of the systems of the Commonwealth into shadow dimensions. They could tesseract their vessels so those 200 GT turbolasers would simply pass right through one side of them and out the other while they can still return fire. If they wanted to someone could tesseract anywhere in the Empire they wanted to do and do whatever damage they wanted to.

Before you even ask. The Vedrans didn't do it to the Nietzscheans because one of the first surprise attacks the Nietzscheans launched was to take out the fleet bases at Trarn Vedra and the leadership of the Commonwealth. They hit fast enough that the Vedrans barely had enough time to seal off Tarn Vedra and spend the next 300 years rebuilding. The Empire with a slower FTL drive and without the inside information on the Commonwealth will have a hard time catching the Vedrans flat hoofed.

And I am not sure how it would work with a planetary shield.

It's caused by the massive gravitational attraction of the slipstream portal. Even assuming the planetary shields are up they won't affect a gravity-based attack like this since gravity still works through the shield. Unless someone wants to claim entire planets shoot off into space whenever they raise their shields.

The fact is that without FTL sensor the CW would have a difficult time mapping out the empire.. While the minute a imperial vessel reaches another galaxy it can use Imperial Probe droids to check out thousands of systems and transmit the information to a central command ship. .

The Commonwealth has infantile FTL sensors. They were able to detect tachyons in "The Fair Unknown" and in "D Minus Zero" at several points the Andromeda appeared to be tracking her attacker in near real time despite it being several light minutes away. The Vedrans also have tesseracting technology, which the Magog and SoA adapted to use as a FTL sensor/transportation system.

What was it that other ship they encountered in Andromeda (the gold one) used to destroy that planet in Andromeda, when they found the ship and that it had been sitting there for 300 years just like Dylan was at the black hole. It refused an order and destroyed the planet somehow.

She ejected her slipstream core at it and then opened a portal.

What are the heavy ground weapons of the Lancers? .

We haven't really seen them yet or any real need to use them. They most likely have mortars since other major powers have them and the f-lance is designed to intercept them. They most likely had some sort of cruise grenade launcher like the one Tyr had in first two episodes. They also had grenades or at least Hunt used grenades in "Una Salus Victus".

And what about ground vehicles? All I remember is a mech. It's weapons were purely anti-personnel, at its accuracy not great.

Ung Tae Hover tanks are the only one we know of besides the OE-bots. They have an entry on All Systems pertaining to it. The mechs are called OE-Bots or Planetary Warfare Bots. Their weapons are not purely anti-personnel you must be thinking of "The Prince". In that episode the Lads were rigged with 3 gatling guns which appear to be for anti-personnel use. In "The Widening Gyre" they mounted one large gauss gatling gun on each arm with rocket pods on their shoulders. That appeared to be their anti-armor loadout considering they were shredding starships.


Actually if you want to play the steal technology game and reverse engineer it the Commonwealth can play the same game. Either by capturing Imperial vessels or capturing key personnel. Especially when you consider the advantage that tesseracting gives the Vedrans. They could simply tesseract someone into the proper facility with the information they needed on say shielding systems or turbolasers and then tesseract them back out.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Of course if we wish to assume that the 25.000 number actually applies to the entire starfleet over the whole galaxy (for purposes of low-end figures) and use it to calculate an alternate fleetsize well then we get 16.24.000 combat ships and 800.000 support ships.

The Nietzscheans consisted of 8% of the human population in the Systems Commonwealth. Yet their fleet, which raised no undue alarm within the Commonwealth, consisted of over one large attack force of 100,000 capital ships with other smaller strike fleets being dispersed throughout the Commonwealth to attack 500 other targets. Even figuring the human Home Guards they may have had 980,000 capital ships and this fails to consider that human worlds were only a small portion of the Commonwealth.

Or if you care to go by the 20 cutter number that seems to be the standard for post Commonwealth worlds to have as their defense fleets. Then say the Commonwealth was made up of a million worlds when the number is in fact slightly larger. You have a figure of 20,000,000 million cutters in the Home Guard along with fighters and other capital ships.

[His Divine Shadow]

The Nietzscheans consisted of 8% of the human population in the Systems Commonwealth. Yet their fleet, which raised no undue alarm within the Commonwealth, consisted of over one large attack force of 100,000 capital ships with other smaller strike fleets being dispersed throughout the Commonwealth to attack 500 other targets. Even figuring the human Home Guards they may have had 980,000 capital ships and this fails to consider that human worlds were only a small portion of the Commonwealth.

It's irrelevant what portion of the CW that humans made up, and it's not a reliable way to try and measure, fleet numbers either.

All that really mattered in that war where the CW's fleet, any other was purely irrelevant it seemed, threat wise.

We know the nietzscheans has 100.000 ships and were quite a danger to the commonwealth, so it's generous to assume the CW has 980.000 capital ships total.

Or if you care to go by the 20 cutter number that seems to be the standard for post Commonwealth worlds to have as their defense fleets. Then say the Commonwealth was made up of a million worlds when the number is in fact slightly larger. You have a figure of 20,000,000 million cutters in the Home Guard along with fighters and other capital ships.

And just what is a cutter and what can it do?
No mention of a cutter at allsystems.

I don't think they had those in the CW anyway, that would only apply to post-CW universe and thats a bunch of crappy ships then I guess, relative to the kind of ships the CW used.

The most logical reason they have them in the post-CW universe is because the commonwealth is gone, their fleet used to provide the protection, no more, now they have to fend for themselves.

[His Divine Shadow]

I believe that the High-guard was stated to have 300.000 ships total and it was the most powerfull faction in the Commonwealth correct?

Well there we have the fleet numbers then?

[Mr Bean]

It would be fun if the world worked like that HDS but in five mins somones going to come along and say you have to count Jantors or High Guard Bathrom attendents and there 9 Km Long super battleships never mentioned in the Series

[Renewed_Valour1]

I believe that the High-guard was stated to have 300.000 ships total and it was the most powerful faction in the Commonwealth correct?

Well there we have the fleet numbers then?

I don't ever recall it ever being said whether the High Guard or Home Guard was the most powerful. The Home Guard if you want to compare to now would be akin to the National Guard. Most likely in higher numbers but using lower quality and older equipment than the regular forces like the High Guard Argosy and Lancers. The High Guard Argosy and High Guard are described in several parts of All Systems as elite forces and in the Andromeda site it mentions most High Guard officers are drawn from the ranks of the Home Guards.

It would be akin to saying the Galactic Empire is limited to just it's Imperial Navy and the Starfleet must also be the Imperial Navy.

We know the nietzscheans has 100.000 ships and were quite a danger to the commonwealth, so it's generous to assume the CW has 980.000 capital ships total.

Only because they were a Commonwealth member launching a surprise attack and knew the exact weaknesses of the Commonwealth. Their fleet was such a danger because they managed to destroy half the Argosy in a first strike before they had any real chance to fight back.

Excerpt from the "Nietzschean Betrayal" from All Systems:
"Similarly, the Home Guard units on Nietzschean worlds were beefed up with new personnel and equipment, and even in the elite High Guard Argosy and Lancer Corps, Nietzschean officers and crew made plans to betray their ships and units and turn them over to the enemy. In secret, a vast armada of 10,000 vessels was assembled in the Hephaistos system, with smaller strike groups positioned throughout Commonwealth space, ready to pounce on unsuspecting High Guard bases and Commonwealth seats of power when the signal to strike was given.

At Hephaistos System, a convenient rogue black hole allowed the insurrectionists to send distress signals to a large number of High Guard starships, summoning them into a trap where they could be picked off one by one. Over 200 top of the line vessels were destroyed in this fashion, until the captain and crew of the heavy cruiser Andromeda Ascendant managed to draw off the fleet's fire long enough for much of the crew to escape and reach Slipstream. Their veil of secrecy about to be rended, the Nietzscheans struck, and struck hard.

In the opening days of the war, the attackers inflicted devastating losses on the High Guard fleet and ground forces. Despite the Commonwealth's overwhelming superiority in ships and personnel (Nietzscheans comprised less than 2 percent of the population of the Systems Commonwealth), defeat appeared swift and certain, with the Nietzscheans already planning to establish a post-Commonwealth Nietzschean Empire."

Excerpt from the Long Night Timeline on All Systems:
"CY 9784 After years of planning, a coalition of Nietzschean-led forces launch a sneak attack on the High Guard, their intent to overthrow the Systems Commonwealth and replace it with a Nietzschean-dominated empire. High Guard and Home Guard facilities on over 500 worlds are simultaneously attacked, resulting in the destruction in homeport of nearly half the Argosy fleet. Empress Sucharitkul XII is assassinated when her royal barge is ambushed by a Nietzschean strike force, Earth is bombarded from orbit, and an attempt to seize San-Ska-Re is repulsed by Than-led Home Guard units, with heavy casualties on both sides."

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't ever recall it ever being said whether the High Guard or Home Guard was the most powerful. The Home Guard if you want to compare to now would be akin to the National Guard. Most likely in higher numbers but using lower quality and older equipment than the regular forces like the High Guard Argosy and Lancers. The High Guard Argosy and High Guard are described in several parts of All Systems as elite forces and in the Andromeda site it mentions most High Guard officers are drawn from the ranks of the Home Guards.

What kind of ships would the homeguard have then?
Cutters?

It would be akin to saying the Galactic Empire is limited to just it's Imperial Navy and the Starfleet must also be the Imperial Navy.

So, does that mean you agree with my higher estimate or lower?

Also SW does have it's version of the homeguard too, local planets usually have their own small fleets, wich are mostly used to stall for reinforcements though.

[Mr Bean]

Told ya HDS

[Renewed_Valour1]

[quote="His Divine Shadow]What kind of ships would the homeguard have then?
Cutters?.[/quote]

Well that's a good question. The Home Guard is a wild card because not too much of it has been seen. Other than the fact that the High Guard was the elite force which drew personnel from the Home Guards. The Home Guard forces might be akin to the Local Defenses Militias that you mentioned in your previous post. Most of their forces were probably fighters and patrol craft of varying sizes.

Brilliant Carapace patrol craft are mentioned on All Systems as one of the major components of the Than Home Guard with 5,000 constructed. The Garuda class patrol craft is mentioned as another popular export to the Home Guard. Both of these patrol craft are roughly equal in firepower and both are about a match in single combat for a High Endurance Research Cruiser as we saw in "The Banks of the Lethe".

The rest of their vessels were probably a mix of capital ships. A lot of the Nietzschean attack fleets were their Home Guard forces. I would have to say their most common capital ships would have been cutters though I don't have too much to back that up other than the composition of post fall worlds defense fleets. A cutter falls somewhere between a heavy patrol craft and a frigate in firepower and size. I think a Star Wars corvette might be a fair analogy. They can't come close to threatening a GHC unless they attack in a fairly large group. The rest would have been a mix of freighters that were equipped to double as warships if they were needed, and frigates. Maybe a few cruisers and some former High Guard hand me downs.

[quote="His Divine Shadow]So, does that mean you agree with my higher estimate or lower?[/quote]

I would have to say something that falls in between the two. I tend to interpret 25,000 ISDs as the total number of ISDs that exist. I'd like to see more quotes that indicate exactly what ships might make up the parts of the Starfleet that isn't the Imperial Navy. From what I know and interpret the Starfleet is largely a defensive force whereas the Imperial Navy is the offensive fist. Much like the Home Guard is the defensive force for the Commonwealth while the High Guard though smaller has the offensive assets.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Against a foe that had the exact same drawbacks though, what I am saying is that the imps have it easier since hyperspace is more predictable and easier to travel along.

When I said it was good enough, I mean large number of ships from different parts of the CW galaxies all wanting to get to point A from their various points in the galaxies will do so dispite the inherit unpredictability (depending on your pilot, of course) of the slipstream will do so in a shorter span of time than ships given the same distance trying to meet at the same spot using hyperdrive. And remember, anyone who takes weeks just to go interstellar distances are pilots for garbage scows.

And in the event sufficient force does come (remember, Dylan stated there are 100,000 ships in the High Guard, so the Imperials can be outnumbered), the High Guard can slipstream to easier targets.

The imperials are outnumbered if you go soley by the imperial navy and it's ISD's(25.000, and the navy seems to be a separate part of the starfleet itself), but there is much more going on ofcourse than just the ISD's.

Also, local defense millitas for the outer rim planets come into play too(but they got nothing much more than a few converted freighters and old fighters anyway), the DS1 took the resources of 20 sectors, out of over 1000 sectors in the empire.
By the way, thats 480 ISDs, 32.000 combat ships, and 16.000 support ships in 20 sectors.

Now if the Empire has 1000 sectors(it has more actually) then it's total fleet is around 480.000 ISD's, 32.000.000 combatships(varying from corvettes to cruisers) and 16.000.000 support ships.
Total fleet size 32.4 million ships and 16 million support ships.[/quote]

That's assuming resources and military importance are the same for each sector. And where did you come up with these figures. The Star Wars Technical Manual states there are 25,000 ISD's, no more, no less. As for the construction of the DS (at least DSII), the Empire used the Black Sun to take care of shipping raw material for refinement and construction on site at Endor. All of this is new to me. Could you tell me where you got these figures from?

Then the ship will just Nova Bomb the system and clear out.

What I wonder is how they can even come that far when they are quite likely to be detected upon entry?

From the script of The Empire Strikes Back

VADER
What is it, General?

VEERS
My lord, the fleet has moves out
of light-speed. Com-Scan has
detected an energy field protecting
an area around the sixth planet of
the Hoth system. The field is
strong enough to deflect any
bombardment.

VADER
(angrily)
The Rebels are alerted to our
presence. Admiral Ozzel came out
of light-speed too close to the
system.

VEERS
He felt surprise was wiser...

VADER
He is as clumsy as he is stupid.
General, prepare your troops for a
surface attack.

I don't why, but an armada of ISD's can remain undetected from Rebel sensors by leaving hyperspace far away from the system. Now, considering that there was the possibility of the armada of ISD's sneaking up on the rebels and getting close enough to attack before they get up their planetary shields, then what chance does the Imperials have of sensing a little slipstream fighter coming out of slipstream far enough from the system to evade sensors and fragging the system with a nova bomb?

[Bryan]

I doubt Commonwealth ships can even destroy SW ships of ISD class and above, I mean the CW are going to be on the offensive, almost every SW planet has sensors that reach several light years,

I've ehard of this before, but neer really seen any proof of this. Do you hae any books with page numbers dealing with this?

they'd know of them at once and have plenty of time to get reinforcements and other ambush tactics,

A good pilot with a fleet rigged into his steering controls (we saw this with Becket when the Commonwealth was fighting the Jaguars I believe) would be out of slipstream within seconds of detection, if you could detect a ship while in slipstream that is.

heck TL's have been shown to have ranges in the light hours in the newest NJO books,

Really? Which book? I've read upto Rebel Dream and I don't recall any of this. What I found itneresting was that in Rebel Dream it took quite a while, 4 minutes for the TL's to destroy the forrest around the biotics facility.

they could drop a few lightseconds away and fire a couple of salvos, by the time the enemy knows what hit 'em they are quite dead.

Well, going by the ranges that most SW ships engage at near point blank that may not happen. Fighters rely on direct line of sight to be able to fire their weapons...

And DOA is right that the Empire could capture ships and dedicate entire worlds to picking them apart.
Though I think the CW has an huge STL acceleration advantage.

According to allsystems.org warships move between .3-.5c and fighters .4-.75c with missiles moving at .85-.95c

[Bryan]

One question that has yet to be answered, or even speculated on, is how Stormtroopers and Imperial Army forces would stack up against Lancers.

Now I think that heavy ECM jamming will negate the semi homing feature of smart bullets on major battlefields,

That if heay jamming is een used during a ground battle, which I cant recall from any of the books it eer being used. Perhaps you could cite an example? They neer said anything in ESB when the Empir eattacked Hoth about ECM. As for it interferring with smart bullets, that's an unsupported claim.

I am also not sure as to how good they are at piercing stormie armor, looking at them impacting on humans I am not sure of their efficency...

Just like how blaster only leae a scorch mark on their victims, yet can punch through Stormmie armor? Their efficency would be ample, IMO, to punch through that white armor a Stormtrooper wears. If a civilians blaster can do it, one that just leae a black burn mark, I'm pretty positie a force lance could do it.

[Renewed_Valour1]

I doubt I mean the CW are going to be on the offensive, almost every SW planet has sensors that reach several light years,

Which will be no help since Commonwealth vessels will be arriving via slipstream. Unless you have some proof that the Empire can scan a FTL medium that they don't even know exists. Even the Commonwealth has enough issues scanning slipstream while they are in it. At best the Empire will get a warning when a fleet drops out of slipstream in the system.

Now I think that heavy ECM jamming will negate the semi homing feature of smart bullets on major battlefields, I am also not sure as to how good they are at piercing stormie armor, looking at them impacting on humans I am not sure of their efficency...

When has the Empire ever used ECM on a ground battlefield? Much less where are they going to pull ECM out of that's portable enough to be of any real use. As for piercing Stormtrooper armor it shouldn't be that big of an issue. We've seen that even the non-explosive effectors have an effect on bulkheads and other objects similar to what a blaster would have. The explosive variant of effectors that we've seen in "The Fair Unknown" and "Devil takes Hindmost" seem to be slightly less powerful than a RPG.

[His Divine Shadow]

I've ehard of this before, but neer really seen any proof of this. Do you hae any books with page numbers dealing with this?

ROTJ, the rebel fleet was detected in hyperspace, atleast 18 LY's away from Endor.

A good pilot with a fleet rigged into his steering controls (we saw this with Becket when the Commonwealth was fighting the Jaguars I believe) would be out of slipstream within seconds of detection, if you could detect a ship while in slipstream that is.

I never said it could, I said they would be detected when they dropped out.

Really? Which book? I've read upto Rebel Dream and I don't recall any of this. What I found itneresting was that in Rebel Dream it took quite a while, 4 minutes for the TL's to destroy the forrest around the biotics facility.

Why do you think that it had anything todo with propagation speed? The propagation speed is said to be C, and they had to be carefull not to vaporize the base they wanted to protect.
Rebel Stand shows that the laser attack coming from beyond the Coruscant system is just an ordinary capital ship firing in a timed fashion with the pipe-fighters.

Well, going by the ranges that most SW ships engage at near point blank that may not happen. Fighters rely on direct line of sight to be able to fire their weapons...

Thats not the ranges most SW ships engage at, thats ROTJ your thinking of.
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Pg. 153: "I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage the Star Destroyers at point blank range - that way the Death Star won't be albe to fire at us without knocking out its own ships!"

"But no one's ever gone nose to nose at that range, between supervessels like their Destroyers and our Cruisers!" Ackbar fumed at the unthinkable - but their options were running out.

"Great!" yelled Lando, skimming over the surface of the Destroyer. "Then we're inventing a new kind of combat!"

"We know nothing about the tactics of such a confrontation!" Ackbar protested.

"We know as much as they do!" Lando hollered. "And they'll think we know more!"

[continued on page 154]

Bluffing was always dangerous in the last hand: but sometimes when all your money was in the pot, it was the only way to win - and Lando never played to lose.

"At that close-range, we won't last long against Star Destroyers." Ackbar was already feeling giddy with resignation.

"We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star and we might just take a few of them with us.!" Lando whooped. With a jolt, one of his forward guns was blown away. He put the Falcon into a controlled spin, and careened around the belly of the Imperial leviathan.

With little else to lose, Ackbar decided to try Calrissian's strategy. In the next minutes, dozens of rebel Cruisers moved in astronomically close to the Imeprial Star Destroyers - and the colossal antagonists began bl asting away at each other, like tanks at twenty paces, while hundreds of
tiny fighters raced across their surfaces, zipping between laser bolts as they chased around the massive hulls.
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-Star Wars VI: Return of the Jedi Novellization

According to allsystems.org warships move between .3-.5c and fighters .4-.75c with missiles moving at .85-.95c

Thats speed, not acceleration, SW ships can travel at near light speeds too.

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't why, but an armada of ISD's can remain undetected from Rebel sensors by leaving hyperspace far away from the system. Now, considering that there was the possibility of the armada of ISD's sneaking up on the rebels and getting close enough to attack before they get up their planetary shields, then what chance does the Imperials have of sensing a little slipstream fighter coming out of slipstream far enough from the system to evade sensors and fragging the system with a nova bomb?

So your saying what really here?
As I see it, the ship thats going to nova bomb a system must jump out very close to the sun in order to have the time to fire the bomb.

[His Divine Shadow]

Which will be no help since Commonwealth vessels will be arriving via slipstream. Unless you have some proof that the Empire can scan a FTL medium that they don't even know exists. Even the Commonwealth has enough issues scanning slipstream while they are in it. At best the Empire will get a warning when a fleet drops out of slipstream in the system.

I'm not, it's just that when they jump out, the imps are going to have minutes or hours of sensor advantage over the CW ships.

When has the Empire ever used ECM on a ground battlefield? Much less where are they going to pull ECM out of that's portable enough to be of any real use. As for piercing Stormtrooper armor it shouldn't be that big of an issue. We've seen that even the non-explosive effectors have an effect on bulkheads and other objects similar to what a blaster would have. The explosive variant of effectors that we've seen in "The Fair Unknown" and "Devil takes Hindmost" seem to be slightly less powerful than a RPG.

Can you prove that the bulkheads would be of similar strenght? Has effectors ever had enough KE to throw a man backwards?
I've seen them impact humans, hardly different from the bullet weapons of today.

And ships jam entire planets when they invade, if there are ships in orbit they will jam everything.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Just like how blaster only leae a scorch mark on their victims, yet can punch through Stormmie armor? Their efficency would be ample, IMO, to punch through that white armor a Stormtrooper wears. If a civilians blaster can do it, one that just leae a black burn mark, I'm pretty positie a force lance could do it.

Gee, maybe because of multiple power settings? Blasters blew chunks out of walls in ANH, yet only scorched Leia in ROTJ. Tell me, is a human arm stronger then a wall? You need high powered blasts to kill a Stormie. That civilian blaster took all its power to punch through.

[His Divine Shadow]

Just like how blaster only leae a scorch mark on their victims, yet can punch through Stormmie armor? Their efficency would be ample, IMO, to punch through that white armor a Stormtrooper wears. If a civilians blaster can do it, one that just leae a black burn mark, I'm pretty positie a force lance could do it.

The wording variable firepower means nothing to you right?

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Pg. 6: The side-mounted powerpack supplies enough energy for 100 shots. The E-11 can be set for a variety of power levels, from stun to full blast.
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-The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

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Pg. 378: "Wonderful," the crewer grunted, checking the power level on his blaster.
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-Dark Force Rising

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"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."

"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness." ...

"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."
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-Lightsabres

Here, more examples of blaster firepower:


And a video ofcourse:
http://hisshadow.123hostnow.com/misc/me ... escape.avi