The Old Republic: World of Star Wars?

[Thanas]

The bodies are a little too perfect and cartoonish, yes. But then the whole game looks rather cartoonish, and the men's bodies aren't exactly the epitome of realism either.

Indeed. I see the same kind of effect as in any movie or TV show here.

[Eleas]

Eh...you are basing your arguments on screenshots from previews? That is not really that good of an argument. That said, the body type is well in evidence when looking at earlier SW pictures, heck even looking at the movies. You might just as well argue that Secura looked like a pornstar, or that Carrie Fisher's clothing in RotJ made her look like one.

No, I was basing one small part of my main arguments on it. Furthermore, I point toward the far greater diversity of male body types shown versus the uniform appearance of a somewhat younger and far bustier type of female body than that of Carrie Fisher and the rest. Aayla Secura I will give you. The point is not that this is a phenomenon that on its own tells us all we want. The point is that it's one thing that points toward conformity in this game. As you say, Bastila too had this shape. If KotOR had shown the same (what I interpret to be) disregard for Canon, and had rehashed the Sith Lord Walks Into Jedi Temple motif we saw just months before on the big screen, I would have griped about that too.

Honestly, I do not get what your problem is. You seem to have latched on this one game when the entire SW EU and the movies themselves are far more "sexist".

If you interpret the full extent of my argument as that, then I'm not making myself clear at all.

And I find this especially puzzling since the game is not even out yet and there is no way of knowing how much freedom you'd have. Heck, the first KOTOR had almost no freedom in body type for men and women alike.

Yeah. See above. Hopefully I'm making my point clearer there.

[Eleas]

The bodies are a little too perfect and cartoonish, yes. But then the whole game looks rather cartoonish, and the men's bodies aren't exactly the epitome of realism either.

Indeed. I see the same kind of effect as in any movie or TV show here.

Um...

Other games also have this problem in spades, you may say, and yeah, you'd be absolutely right. That's not the problem I was addressing. The problem is that this is one generic issue among many, and indicative of the overall trend of blandness we see in the game.

I specifically wrote that in order to counter this type of argument. The sexism is not the issue. The conformity of body shape, plus the conformity of everything else, made up my argument.

[Gramzamber]

Maybe you can make big, hulking bald women and they're just not showing it in the previews, because again the general perception is people will see a big, hulking bald man as a badass and a big, hulking bald woman as just ugly.
Hey that's advertising.
And I hold BioWare's marketing department in a special low regard for shoving Monkey McGorilla in our faces as the Mass Effect posterboy, totally ignoring the customisable male and female Shepards.

[Thanas]

Eh...you are basing your arguments on screenshots from previews? That is not really that good of an argument. That said, the body type is well in evidence when looking at earlier SW pictures, heck even looking at the movies. You might just as well argue that Secura looked like a pornstar, or that Carrie Fisher's clothing in RotJ made her look like one.

No, I was basing one small part of my main arguments on it. Furthermore, I point toward the far greater diversity of male body types shown versus the uniform appearance of a somewhat younger and far bustier type of female body than that of Carrie Fisher and the rest.

The game is in development. They might not have finished the models. Besides, Bioware is one of the least offenders in the female body types and character work categories. Heck, in BG1 and 2, the female characters had arguably more work put into them than the male ones.

Aayla Secura I will give you. The point is not that this is a phenomenon that on its own tells us all we want. The point is that it's one thing that points toward conformity in this game. As you say, Bastila too had this shape. If KotOR had shown the same (what I interpret to be) disregard for Canon, and had rehashed the Sith Lord Walks Into Jedi Temple motif we saw just months before on the big screen, I would have griped about that too.

I think you are blowing major smoke over a little thing that is not even clear does exist so far. So far all we have is that there is one attractive female model in the game. Nowhere does it say it is the only one.

If you interpret the full extent of my argument as that, then I'm not making myself clear at all.

Well, you claimed the game was sexist by implying the girls look all like pornstars. What other way is there to interpret that statement?

If all you wanted to complain about is the lack of variety, maybe that could have been phrased a different way and all this idiotic shouting at each other could have been avoided.

I specifically wrote that in order to counter this type of argument. The sexism is not the issue. The conformity of body shape, plus the conformity of everything else, made up my argument.

Yeah, conformity. The same kind of conformity men are forced into in action games. Or when was the last time you saw a Jedi Knight in KOTOR that had a big, drooping beer belly? No, all of them have the kind of "action hero" body. Heck, arguably, the female shapes in KOTOR so far had more variety, since at least you had for example teenagers or cat people on board.

[Eleas]

The game is in development. They might not have finished the models. Besides, Bioware is one of the least offenders in the female body types and character work categories. Heck, in BG1 and 2, the female characters had arguably more work put into them than the male ones.

"Other people are doing it as well" does not a valid point make, IMHO - not when I characterized this as a problem. I'm saying that these things, in excess, will only produce a game pandering (to use a cliché phrase) to the lowest common denominator. Unrealistic bodies or portrayals will not do it by themselves.

I think you are blowing major smoke over a little thing that is not even clear does exist so far. So far all we have is that there is one attractive female model in the game. Nowhere does it say it is the only one.

The fact that they have skinned the equipment and clothing for all classes we've seen to fit that one female model is important, IMO. It's not conclusive. But we can look at what they choose to show us and see what these things are.

Well, you claimed the game was sexist by implying the girls look all like pornstars. What other way is there to interpret that statement?

Another interpretation is that I claimed the game promoted one single model, a model that yes, was sexist, but chiefly was chosen because to a lazy dev, it's easy to equate "woman" with "slender large-breasted sylph". I was using it - perhaps badly - as an attempt to point out that this is an example of standard dev laziness.

If all you wanted to complain about is the lack of variety, maybe that could have been phrased a different way and all this idiotic shouting at each other could have been avoided.

Granted. I do think it is patently sexist, but I never claimed the pictures above somehow takes it to the next level. I should have phrased it better, and with less indiscriminate vitriol.

Yeah, conformity. The same kind of conformity men are forced into in action games. Or when was the last time you saw a Jedi Knight in KOTOR that had a big, drooping beer belly? No, all of them have the kind of "action hero" body. Heck, arguably, the female shapes in KOTOR so far had more variety, since at least you had for example teenagers or cat people on board.

I speak of not just player characters, but the character design in general. Also, I must once again point out that my original argument wasn't bashing KotOR, but the trailer footage of TOR.

[Dalton]

This will be my last word on the subject, since Schatten seems to have left the thread.

Insults are fine, as I'm sure you're well aware, but since that seemed to be the focus of your counterargument, you should have backed it up. If that was not what you meant to say, perhaps you should have worded your response differently.

Again, I dismissed him because he refused to post evidence.

From what I can see, so did you. What was that picture supposed to prove?

So let me get this straight: you're not insulting me for doing my job, but you ARE accusing me of playing games with the rules (i.e. abusing my power), while also telling me to "get the fuck out of here". I just want to be clear here.

The 'get the fuck out of here' is in the phrased sense IE You're talking bullshit. Yes, I am, if he's your friend then you should recuse yourself from the discussion as there's a blatant conflict of interest. As we can see here. Oh and trying to apply DR6 violation to a fucking insult when I'm dismissing him because he refuses to post valid evidence.

A couple of things here:

1. Do not presume to tell me what to do, and then try to use the actions of other moderators as if it was a precedent to try to get me to do so. You do not get to boss around an Administrator.
2. I am not involved in this thread. I am moderating this thread.
3. Eleas is my friend, yes. But as you can see, I've already noted his appeal to authority, and I will not ignore his part in this just because of that friendship. My presence here is purely impartial, and claims to the contrary amount to accusations of abuse of power.
4. The chain of events, as I see it:
   1. Eleas made a subjective claim about the appearance of the women in the game ("cartoonified pornstars"), one sentence in an entire post.
   2. You then nitpicked that one sentence and posted a bunch of pictures along with a subjective claim that the women in TOR look nothing like these other games.
   3. Eleas responds with another subjective comparison ("DDD cups to DD cups") along with calling the whole argument a red herring.
   4. You follow up by calling him a permavirgin, saying he has no idea what such would look like, and post a picture of an anonymous person without qualification.
   5. Eleas replies on the contrary, citing his significant other who has considerable expertise on the matter, though does not provide tangible evidence.
   6. You ignore his post, call him a liar without any evidence and repeat that there is no comparison.
   7. Hence, you did not back up your argument, and Eleas appealed to authority. Eleas had the good grace to recognize his shortcomings. You did not. Eleas acquiesced to Thanas' rebuke and substantiated his argument. You left the thread.

That being said...

I wanted to note that I don't think Dalton a bad mod, though I do think he has made some bad judgements (the time where he worded his return insult in such a way to sound like a threat to myself being one that comes to mind)

Man, you sure didn't do that when you told me to "get the fuck out of here".

and I do think he's in the wrong trying to apply a DR6 rule violation on an insult when Eleas refused to provide any evidence other than an appeal to his could or could not be girlfriend and for Dalton to involve himself in this thread when he has a personal relationship with him. I'm not advocating he be fired or sanctioned or any such bullshit, I'm just saying he acted like an ass in this incident and needs to recuse himself from it.

Gee whiz, I sure dodged a bullet there! What would I have done without General Schatten showing me such compassion and waiving any punitive measures that may have been levied against me! Golly, I sure am lucky that he was around to put me in my place!

[Eleas]

On one point Schatten was correct. I shouldn't have consulted a family member or SO. The possibility of bias is too strong when you basically go "hey, give me your opinion on this one", because you'll be there to comment on everything and explain your side of the argument.

Something for me to keep in mind, I guess.

[Lagmonster]

I've split out the non-game discussion of Sith mythology to the Pure Star Wars forum. Look for it there.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Two new updates Advanced Classes and World Crafting:

Advanced Classes are specialized careers that your characters can choose in Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. As your character becomes more seasoned through adventure, you will be given the opportunity to undertake one of two Advanced Classes. This decision is equally as important as when you originally created your character. This is because your choice will not only make your character more distinct and powerful, but it will also help further define the role you wish to play in The Old Republic.

In addition to your Class-specific Skills and Abilities, your chosen Advanced Class will grant you access to role-defining Abilities that represent additional areas of expertise and some may even grant new weapon and armor types. Additionally, each Advanced Class will also have three sets of Skills available to further customize your character.

The chart above is not representative of any of the current Advanced Class Skill Sets, nor does it show exactly how many Skills you may potentially access. It is included to provide an example of how a character, in this case a Sith Warrior, may look as he progresses through one Advanced Class (note that the other Advanced Class Skill Sets are disabled and cannot be trained).

As mentioned above, each Advanced Class opens up three Skill Sets with a variety of Skills in each. Unlike selecting an Advanced Class, these Skill Sets are less restrictive and your character can obtain Skills from any set or from all of them!

Shared Skill Set:

While the first two Skill Sets include Skills entirely unique to the chosen Advanced Classes, the third Skill Set consists of a shared set of Skills which expand upon the core Skills of the Class itself.

One thing to note is that you use the same pool of points when training your Advanced Classes Skills, so spend your points wisely!

The main goal of the Advanced Class System is to allow you to customize your characters according to your play style. For example, some Sith Warrior players will want to charge into the fight and take the full heat of the enemies’ aggression. Others will want to execute their maneuvers more strategically, focused on channeling all their rage to destroy their enemies as quickly as possible. The Advanced Class System gives you these kinds of choices and more.

Not a whole lot but what we did get is confirmation of specs, less paths than WoW but each one is further divided into two. We also got confirmation that the specs you can choose for Sith Warrior are a DPS/Tank Hybrid or pure DPS dual-wielder.

"They're a meditative people. They're communal, not individualistic, and they’d create symbolic art--pattern-based and preferably monochromatic to contrast with their amazingly colorful skin."

“For skin colors and patterns, poison dart frogs as a starting point. Something that jumps against the background of the planet. These people don’t blend or quite belong on their world.”

"The Gormak are running down a tech path unseen in the galaxy. It's important that we see the ship that they're creating and it jumps out as foreign, wrong for Star Wars™. Anything we see that is Gormak should be slick, impressive and create a sense of wrongness in Players."

"The Voss must at all times feel isolated. Voss-Ka is high above the rest of the planet but it's an island in a sea of Gormak. Every other outpost is overrun or threatened. The Republic and Empire see the Voss as standing on the roof of their last building in a losing war but the Voss never reach out for help. They are not looking to be rescued."

Welcome to the amazing job of creating worlds. Above are some of the notes I made before discussing Voss with our gifted concept artists and our ambitious world designers. These talented folks enable us to communicate in ideas, themes and feelings as much as in size, directions and numbers. This is the secret of creating real worlds instead of simply play spaces. Most Players will never notice, for instance, that on Korriban statues of non-Sith are always in supplication, literally supporting the Empire on their worn backs. Few people will stop and trace the path of Jedi resettlement of the wilderness on Tython, try to understand exactly where which war stopped in Balmorra or make sense of the twisted politics that have left some parts of Coruscant abandoned and in misery while others bounced back shortly after the invasion. They will, however, hopefully feel the layers of planning and vision that went into the worlds and because of that, subconsciously believe in the reality of the galaxy they are travelling through.

But we're ahead of ourselves. Handing over a world to concept and world design is obviously one of the later steps the writing department has in the birthing process. Let's start at the beginning, using Voss as a touchstone for the general path all worlds must take. Time travel is a big no-no in The Old Republic but just this once, I’ll allow it. Let’s go back and see the first moments of Voss and the galaxy.

Interestingly, the Mystics have been around as long at the Old Republic has--though the culture and people who would become the Voss came much later. In the first days we wanted to bring something completely new to our class offerings and a group who looked at the Force in a fundamentally different way was intriguing. The Mystics would be grey and dangerous to the eyes of the Jedi, able to see through the lies of the Sith and beholden and interested in neither. They would enable us to explore themes of religion (every culture sees gods but interprets them differently), culture (believing themselves to be the chosen people) and politics (due to the infallibility of their visions, they are happily totalitarian). We had numerous different ideas for how they would look, be thought of by the greater galaxy and behave. For a while we had a running joke of Mystic converts standing in spaceports asking weary travelers, “Have you been to Voss?”

Two problems quickly made themselves apparent. First and foremost, a BioWare story doesn’t work if you don’t understand the shoes you’re standing in. Roleplaying games are about exploration and discovery but you have to have a basic place to work from. Something as alien as the Mystic culture (its express purpose is to be strange to the Star Wars galaxy) is the exact opposite of where we’d want to start a Player. “Never introduce the exception before you teach the rule” is one of the fundamental tenants of strong RPG writing and obviously the rule was the Jedi, the Republic, the Sith, the Empire. There was more than enough content we’d have to catch Players up on without introducing some completely alien idea. Secondly, we realized we had far more Jedi and Sith fantasies than were going to fit into two classes both for story and gameplay. When it became apparent we were going to have four fundamental Force-using classes the chances of a fifth was immediately taken off the table. The Imperial Agent would be our chance to explore new territory while still introducing Players to a core part of the galaxy.

So the Mystics were set aside but we were all fairly sure they’d be coming back for the big show. The stories we’d already begun to invent in our heads were too interesting and them being removed as class candidates enabled us to make them far more alien.

When we first sat down to figure out planets we had four distinct classifications we wanted to fill: Iconic movie worlds, IP favorite worlds, Star Wars™: Knights of the Old Republic™ worlds and brand new additions to the lore. Iconic movie worlds are fairly self explanatory. Was it awesome in the movies? Do you always dream about running around and adventuring there? Does it lend itself easily to MMO gameplay? Let’s do it and let’s make it look more amazing and detailed than anyone has ever dreamed. IP favorite worlds are places like Alderaan and Ord Mantell. We feel like we know these worlds even though we’ve barely seen them and they never showed up (with a tragic cameo exception) in the movies. We have an impression of them, they have a place in our mythos and in the extended universe books, comics, etc. Worlds from the original two Knights of the Old Republic were important for continuity, to answer questions and make sure the game was firmly established as the same timeline.

Finally there were brand new additions to the lore and that’s where the Mystics came back to the top of the list. Now to be clear, the first thing we do when we decide to add a “new” world to the vast Star Wars mythology is to do our research and see if there is a world that already exists and will fit our needs. Is it the right type of climate? The right place in the galaxy? Does it have next to nothing written about it? Awesome, it’s ours. Over the years hundreds of writers have tossed out names of worlds with a sentence or less to describe them. Why create more clutter when we can add to the depth of what’s there?

Looking at the holocron (Lucasarts’ extensive guide to all things canon and beyond) we find Voss. It says three thousand years after our timeline a starship pilot will hail from Voss and apparently several mothers throughout history named their kids after the planet. Okay, we can live with that. People name their kids “Dakota” and “Paris” right? Otherwise, it’s ours. Open for creativity. Let’s create a planet for our mystics.

First of all we’ve got a group of people who are, on the surface, extremely powerful. They can see the future. That’s big. So we need to temper that. There cannot be very many of them and these visions cannot come at will. One man with perfect clarity of the future’s events would be a powerhouse, a whole culture would be unstoppable. So all of a sudden I can see the Voss a bit more clearly. They are not all Mystics. So what is it like to live in a culture where there are people who can see the future but cannot control when they do so? Okay, it makes sense these visions are going to be seen as important. Clearly if they only happen occasionally, they must be for a reason, right? Now these visions are always right, what’s that like? To have infallible leaders? Well now we have a totalitarian people but a happy totalitarian people. A Mystic’s vision is always right so arguments around it are meaningless. Okay, that’s even more interesting. So what happens if a Mystic’s vision tells the Voss to do something terrible to outsiders? What about something terrible to themselves? Great, we’ve got story hooks coming out the Voss-Ka.

So now we want to sell independent (they have the answers), chosen (they are the only ones with visions) but small and isolated (they're rare in our setting, unlike Jedi and Sith). We also want to see their power. They need an enemy. That enemy must be an overwhelming threat to show the Voss resilience and power and must contrast sharply with the Voss. What is the flip side of mysticism and faith? Technology and progress without soul-searching. Enter the Gormak--tech geniuses with a very basic tribal cultural system, a love of warfare and competition and an utter hatred for the Voss who they will never understand. So let’s see, occasionally seeing the future is good for outflanking your enemies but isn’t going to defend against a hundred million blaster cannons. We’ll need to give the Voss some amazingly well placed defenses. Okay, up the mountain they go. And in come the Voss Commandos. After all, if there aren’t very many Voss then every warm body who isn’t off having or interpreting visions is going to learn to shoot back.

But of course the Voss didn’t start up that mountain so we need to trace the history of the people and their development. Voss ruins overrun by Gormak, destroyed wilderness mined and stripped bare by the Gormak war machine, ancient spaces where other cultures may have visited the planet thousands of years in the past. Ruins of both Sith and Jedi varieties in the far flung corners of the world. That will raise some questions. Oh, and the Nightmare Lands. Forbidden space even Gormak don’t dare to tread. The less said about that scary place the better.

This is, of course, a very high-level flyby look at the development process. Writer Jessica Ilko had to put together a three page document that covered nothing but how the Voss speak and how it contrasts with the Gormak. Then there are documents that are explorations of Voss art (monochromatic and symbolic), marriage practices (don’t physically sexually develop until their marriage rituals are performed), funereal rites (usually a Voss speaks as little as possible but they are extremely publicly emotional and wail at funerals and other times of hardship) and all of the other details that makes a people real and enables a writer to see them in a way necessary to write stories that feel true.

It is only after all this work is done that we take a distilled version of all of this information (only the writers are forced to read the thousand plus page fiction guide for TOR or nobody would ever get their jobs done) and pass it to our aforementioned amazing concept artists. They get together with the world designers and then the magic really starts to happen. Of course that's just one planet. Then we move onto the next.

Daniel Erickson
Principal Lead Writer

So far I'm pretty happy with the planet selection, as players we don't get a lot of time to see Coruscant in video games and it's nice to actually see more of Alderaan than a space shot and a couple scenes of one palace on the planet. Ord Mantel, Nal Hutta, and Balmoora are often mentioned but never explored. Tython, Dromuund Kas, and Belsaavius are rather obscure planets and Taris is nice to see after what Malak did to it. Every KoTOR has had Korriban and it's typically my favorite place to explore. They've 'arguably' added a new planet, since according to the article in the entirety of Lucasfilm's Holocron there's only one throwaway mention. The only really upsetting part about the planets is the inclusion of Tatooine, I can only think of three planetside adventure or FPS games that don't include it and it's worn out it's welcome.

[Stofsk]

I agree with you re: Tattooine. I wish they'd tell us how far along they are. Probably a release date sometime next year?

[Ritterin Sophia]

I agree with you re: Tattooine.

I understand it's actually a rather prevalent position around here, but in regards to this game you can justify those other locales that show up a lot as we either never get to play around in them, have never actually seen them beyond a name, or they're pretty much iconic to The Old Republic.

I wish they'd tell us how far along they are. Probably a release date sometime next year?

Yeah, I believe the most recent inconclusive estimate was last year when they pushed it back from the final quarter of this year to the first one of next, IIRC. But I haven't been paying attention, my philosophy is don't worry until you see the pre-order commercials on TV.

[Stofsk]

I saw a video and Daniel Erickson says they're hoping for a Spring 2011 release. Here's the video.

The video doesn't really have anything new or interesting to say though. Just another fluff vid.

[Sinewmire]

I agree with you re: Tattooine.

I understand it's actually a rather prevalent position around here, but in regards to this game you can justify those other locales that show up a lot as we either never get to play around in them, have never actually seen them beyond a name, or they're pretty much iconic to The Old Republic.

In the words of Tag and Bink, "Let's go to Tatooine, nothing ever happens there." "Into obscurity we go!"

[Ritterin Sophia]

Okay I've got some cool news and some really shitty news. So I'll put them in spoilers, so that you can read them in the order you find preferable.
Spoiler

Our newest planet is ColdthHoth

A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away…

Thirty years ago to the day, Star Wars™: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back™ opened in movie theaters, forever changing the cinematic landscape. Bursting with action-packed battles, fast paced dialogue, and characters faced with complex choices, the echoes of this landmark film are still felt today. From toys, to fashion, to punk rock, its influence is everywhere. The Empire Strikes Back has not only changed how we relate to our favorite movies, but has made a lasting contribution to our very culture.

To commemorate this monumental continuation of the Star Wars™ story, we are proud to reveal the ice world of Hoth – the latest explorable planet in Star Wars™: The Old Republic™.

Access the HoloNet to learn more about the pivotal battles in the history of Hoth – and to understand why both the Galactic Republic and Sith Empire are interested in the planet. Check out this video to see Hoth’s brutal blizzards and unique wildlife. Don’t forget to visit the Media Section for never-before-seen screenshots, wallpaper, and concept art showing this barren, desolate landscape.

Spoiler

As most of you may not know, SWTOR has had two webcomics explaining some of the backstory. In this weeks comic we get to see the Sith Emperor, prepare to be disappointed...

[charlemagne]

Well... I think that Sith emperor may be a bit boring, but it's still better than "Generic disfigured Vader knock-off #93846".

[Sinewmire]

Aang, is that you? My you've grown.

[Stofsk]

The Sith Emperor looks like a bald, asian, metrosexual.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Okay, I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but maybe he drains people's life force to stay alive and this reduces his physical age? So one year he could go from looking like Cao Cao to a buddhist monk? Or maybe he pulls a Palpatine a jumps from body to body using specially selected vessels to 'reincarnate' into like some kind of evil Dhalai Lhama?

Well... I think that Sith emperor may be a bit boring, but it's still better than "Generic disfigured Vader knock-off #93846".

According the the backstory of TOR this guy is supposed to have been the Sith Emperor since the Great Hyperspace War, he's supposed to be somewhere in the range of 1400 years old by the Galactic Cold War, at least if he'd had a life support suit we'd know why. Right now I can only take shots into the dark as to why he looks somewhere in the range of late teens to mid twenties.

[Kuja]

Fuck's sake. So when are they adding Endor and Bespin?

And that Emperor looks like Ridic went on a crash diet and lost thirty pounds.

[Aaron]

So Hoth, where the only things to do would be ride a space lizard, get hunted by a space bear/ape and freeze to death?

[Samuel]

So Hoth, where the only things to do would be ride a space lizard, get hunted by a space bear/ape and freeze to death?

Shouldn't they add more settled worlds? Wasteless balls of dirt don't work so well for getting large numbers of players together- there isn't any reason to go there.

[Artemas]

Myabe thousands of years ago it was a settled world, and a major ice age had just started at the start of TOR. Society is crumbling under the strain of refugees and elimination of resources, as civil unrest and outright infighting occurs planetwide. Small portions are still unfrozen, but the bulk is the Hoth we know and love, with abandoned, or much reduced settlements dotting the landscape, and with glaciers and snowstorms wiping away any trace of some cities.

[Aaron]

And what do you suppose the chances of that are?

[Artemas]

Forethought in the game industry?

It's their kryptonite.