Doctor Who "Flesh and Stone" (Spoilers)

[xerex]

Interestingly, someone just pointed out to me that when the Doctor returns in the forest to tell Amy to remember, he's wearing his jacket, which he had just lost to the Angels, implying a time travelling jumpy thing or a continuity gaffe. Curiouser and curiouser.

He's also wearing a different shirt and has his sleeves rolled up. Also, look at the way the scene is set up: The Doctor has a somewhat nervous conversation with Amy, tells everyone that he's leaving and appears to head off, comes back wearing different clothes to give Amy a cryptic message, then runs off again without explaining himself. My guess is that the Doctor who told Amy to remember what she was told when she was seven is actually from the future, and that "our" Doctor really did head off when he said he did..

I think youre right. Looking at the scene again. the "new" Doctor is acting very nervous and watchful. and he seems more emotionally involved with Amy (kissing her head) than before or after.

my guess. Amy is killed ,trapped or amnesiac because of her lack of trust and the Dr ( limited by the crack) goes back to this point to try and get her to "remember".

[Manus Celer Dei]

And did the Angels closing the Crack remove everything they did? I.e. was the Bishop no longer dead?

Cos if it did remove everything those Angels did, the ship would never have crashed adn the Clerics, River and the Doctor would never have gone there

It's pretty fucking obvious it didn't, then.

[2000AD]

I never noticed the change of clothing and stuff when the Doctor came back to Amy, I just figoured he was being kind. Could be some interesting stuff and nice foreshadowing.

1) its hinted that River "killed" the Doctor, and I suspect the Doctor knew by the way he looked at her. I bet you it will turn out to be a faked death with River taking the fall for some reason. Given that he knows his future self will meet River just before she takes on her last mission its a safe bet she didn't really kill him.

Except there's the whole time travel never meeting in the same order thing, she could have killed him earlier in her perspective.
My long shot guess:
The first time The Doctor met River (from his perspective) she died. That's going to be mirrored in that the first time River meets The Doctor (from her perspective) he'll die, maybe his final death after he's used all his regenerations (standard one and bonus ones if they come in). That's how she knows his true name, in the Library eps he says there's only one time he'd tell someone his name but IIRC it's not actually stated what that time is. My bet is that when he's finally dieing he'll tell someone his name, so when they first meet River does something that kills him and while he's dieing he tells her his name, saying something like she'll be needing it and that they'll be meeting again, confusing the hell out of her but setting her up to be interested when he does pop up again.
They're relationship will be a kind of Benjamin Button style thing. From both they're perspectives their first few meetings are going to be complicated, there's someone that knows a lot about them, that hints they're going to connected and the only thing they know for certain is how the other is going to die. There's going to be a lot of initial mistrust, but as they both head towards the middle then they get that trust and have a glorious period of adventuring together.

[Lost Soal]

I never noticed the change of clothing and stuff when the Doctor came back to Amy, I just figoured he was being kind. Could be some interesting stuff and nice foreshadowing.

1) its hinted that River "killed" the Doctor, and I suspect the Doctor knew by the way he looked at her. I bet you it will turn out to be a faked death with River taking the fall for some reason. Given that he knows his future self will meet River just before she takes on her last mission its a safe bet she didn't really kill him.

Except there's the whole time travel never meeting in the same order thing, she could have killed him earlier in her perspective.
My long shot guess:
The first time The Doctor met River (from his perspective) she died. That's going to be mirrored in that the first time River meets The Doctor (from her perspective) he'll die, maybe his final death after he's used all his regenerations (standard one and bonus ones if they come in). That's how she knows his true name, in the Library eps he says there's only one time he'd tell someone his name but IIRC it's not actually stated what that time is. My bet is that when he's finally dieing he'll tell someone his name, so when they first meet River does something that kills him and while he's dieing he tells her his name, saying something like she'll be needing it and that they'll be meeting again, confusing the hell out of her but setting her up to be interested when he does pop up again.
They're relationship will be a kind of Benjamin Button style thing. From both they're perspectives their first few meetings are going to be complicated, there's someone that knows a lot about them, that hints they're going to connected and the only thing they know for certain is how the other is going to die. There's going to be a lot of initial mistrust, but as they both head towards the middle then they get that trust and have a glorious period of adventuring together.

She says they will meet again very soon where he will find out who she kills.
That means this incarnation, probably this series, which means Moffat's gone on a huge hunt to find a new Doctor only to kill him off straight away.
I don't think so.

[PREDATOR490]

I'm half expecting River Song to be revealed as the Rani. They brought back everyone else and it might make for an interesting twist to their relationship.

Other than that, I can easily see the relationship being delayed so they can avoid naming the Doctor or following through on having the Doctor actually have one. Once again, not good for their romantic angles they like to play with their companions or keeping them good looking to appeal to the fans.

[Crazedwraith]

By the way, Pred, Both Matt Smith and Karen Gillan are confirmed to be signed on for two series.

Click Me

[Themightytom]

I think youre right. Looking at the scene again. the "new" Doctor is acting very nervous and watchful. and he seems more emotionally involved with Amy (kissing her head) than before or after.

my guess. Amy is killed ,trapped or amnesiac because of her lack of trust and the Dr ( limited by the crack) goes back to this point to try and get her to "remember".

I had a similar thought when Amy saw herself telling herself to get the doctor off the Starship UK. The message seemed a little bit out of sync somehow with the episode. I bet Moffat is going for B5- eque foreshadowing. I hope to god he has more luck keeping his actors straight for the payoff.

My question is thus: If we are getting beat over the ehad with implications that time is rewriting itself and the Dalek's and the Giant Cyberman in london never happened, why is it in the first episode with the new doctor, he establishes his street cred and lineage with the menacing aliens, with scenes of a giant cyberman, and Dalek's attacking Earth.

Either this is a writing F up, or Amy is a lot younger than we thought, and might have been somehow spawned by the crack itself.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, the aliens were the keepers of Prisoner Zero and came FROM that crack too, right? So who knows, they ARE also giant EYES, so they could see more things than the average bear. Giant eyes, "seeing", geddit.

But yeah, there were giant eyeballs on the other side of the crack. Who the fuck knows what the Atraxi are, in relation to the rest of this stuff.

[Ryushikaze]

The Atraxi are a time capable entity, so they'd be immune to the amnesiac effects of the cracks.

Which brings up an interesting factoid- while the crack 'erases' people, it doesn't seem to erase what they've done, just any memory of it happening.
Case in point- when the angels got erased, the folks they killed didn't come back to life, as all the events leading up to their erasure still happened.

[NecronLord]

Case in point- when the angels got erased, the folks they killed didn't come back to life, as all the events leading up to their erasure still happened.

Are we sure? I thought Bob and co were meant to be in the background when River beamed up. Though I suppose it could have been more clerics.

[Gemini-Preserver]

I'm half expecting River Song to be revealed as the Rani.

Oh gosh yet another Rani theory. So far this sereies thats Amy and now River put forward as candidates.

[Gramzamber]

Well, the aliens were the keepers of Prisoner Zero and came FROM that crack too, right? So who knows, they ARE also giant EYES, so they could see more things than the average bear. Giant eyes, "seeing", geddit.

But yeah, there were giant eyeballs on the other side of the crack. Who the fuck knows what the Atraxi are, in relation to the rest of this stuff.

They didn't come from the crack, in that case the crack acted like a portal to another area of space (specifically connecting Amy's house to Prisoner Zero's cell).
So basically the cracks do whatever the hell they like, portals sometimes, history-eraser vacuum cleaners other times.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, they also did track the Doctor down through space and time - which was the reason why they were so late in coming to get Prisoner Zero. *shrug*

EDIT:

On the question of the Clerics... well, their dead bodies would've fallen into the crack too.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Argh, rewriting history selectivly just gives me a bloody headache

[Ryushikaze]

Case in point- when the angels got erased, the folks they killed didn't come back to life, as all the events leading up to their erasure still happened.

Are we sure? I thought Bob and co were meant to be in the background when River beamed up. Though I suppose it could have been more clerics.

I'll double check, but I'm fairly certain that they were different Clerics.

Also, as for 'River- The Rani?' I had some suspicions of that in her first appearance, but I won't be holding my breath.
However, I think the 'Aren't we all' line in reference to 'That's a fairy tale' is some rather sledgehammer foreshadowing even if she's not the Rani.

On checking both episodes again- It's definitely a different group at the end, probably from the people who stayed behind at the camp when the Doctor and co. went into the caves.

Oh, and Gramzamber- the cracks are always a portal, just sometimes they're a portal to the time erasure.

[Gramzamber]

River can't be the Rani, she died and didn't regenerate.... unless she did it off screen.. damn conspiracy theories.

Oh and the cracks aren't the actual time... erasing.. thing, but another symptom? Didn't catch that.

[PREDATOR490]

She said the 'pandoraca' will open or some stupid 'foreshadowy' shit.

I'm guessing Pandora's Box or some equivelent will be appearing next. Seems right up her street due to her 'profession'. As for being the Rani, meh. If time is being unwritten or can be rewritten and Daleks can be brought back... I wouldnt right off the Rani reappearing. Then again, maybe her lessons to fly the TARDIS were from the Rani... that would be funny and make for an interesting 'first encounter'.

[Shroom Man 777]

Isn't that the same thing the transdimensional eel-woman said in The Eleventh Hour? The Pandorica and so on?

[DarkSilver]

"The Doctor and the TARDIS doesn't know, The Doctor Doesn't Know...the doctor doesn't know..."

"The Pandorica will open, and Silence will fall"

So yeah, Prisoner Zero mentioned the Pandorica also

[Lost Soal]

Has it occurred to anyone that her statement regarding her driving lessons can be taken literally without ruling out the Doctor as being the one to teach her.

Just think about the nature of their relationship.

[Gramzamber]

What exactly did she say?
Regardless I choose to believe there are other Time Lords (his daughter notwithstanding.. are they EVER going to follow up on that?) as this "I'm the last Time Lord" business is depressing.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think what Lost Soul meant was that the Doctor DID teach her, but not the current incarnation, given that they meeting in opposite orders to each other

[PREDATOR490]

I think what Lost Soul meant was that the Doctor DID teach her, but not the current incarnation, given that they meeting in opposite orders to each other

That means River Song is going to be around for at least 2 -3 seasons since we have Matt Smith for 2. Unless its the human Tennant that taught her she cant exactly be taught by anyone else currently. Short of bringing back another Timelord, Master, Rani or Romana being possible candidates there is noone else who should have the ability to teach her how to fly the TARDIS.
On the one hand fair enough but I doubt Doctor Who is willing to go with a proper longterm relationship between the Doctor and River Song. The character and premise of her story is such that its going to quickly become stupid if she is doing stuff like this everytime we see her. Its bad enough with the current trend of doing 'epic foreshadow' plot points without having River Song blundering about giving snippits of the 'epic relationship' she has with the Doctor or the suspense in finding out all the suspense about who she is.

[Themightytom]

has River actually been confirmed human? I mean are we sure she isn't a Time lady herself somehow? or a descendant of the Doctor's daughter or something?

[Crazedwraith]

The Doctor claims that he knows if there are other Time Lords in existence, presumably through some Time Lord telepathy. He does so in the second episode of Eccleston's series, when Rose asks him if there could be any other survivors. (Or was it in Dalek?)

Which is why The Master was written as being a human when he first re-appeared.