Podcast on SWvsST

[aronkerkhof]

Hey guys. Long time no post. I couldn't believe that a) my account was still active, and b) I actually remembered my old password. Good to see a surprising amount of old friends still around, fighting the good fight and having fun!

The reason I've darkened the doorway after having been gone for so long is this; some friends and I have started a podcast for laughs. That's right friends, I've come back to link-whore! Knowing my history back in the day, my co-hosts engaged me in a very lightweight SWvsST debate on the air. I went in with zero prep, and listening to it, made a few cringe worthy errors in not being able to think on my feet and summon the old energies after having them lie dormant for so long. A few editing quirks are there too; at one point Jim's Audacity chainsawmanship makes it seem like I claim Dr. Saxton is responsible for Mike's website here.

But, having said all that I think it is entertaining in a sophmoric kind of way and it did motivate me to get back on here and see if any progress has been made in the debate in the past five years or so; if any of the fresh meat Lucas or Abrams had thrown on the table has made a dent. To that end I'm going to lurk around and check out anything having to do with the new material, red matter, etc, etc. We'll probably revisit the topic in the future, I won't take it so easy on my hosts next time.

If it sounds like an enjoyable way to while away 40 odd minutes, then have at it... If you do take a listen, I'd love feedback. There are a variety of other casts which appeal to a pretty broad spectrum of the geek pallette. Those of you who knew Kynes from way back when might also be interested in the PAX series, in which I tell a few good stories about Mr. Samuel, Esq, who accompanied us on the trip. I will tell you this; you can do a goddamn sight worse than having Kynes at your side for a good pub crawl.

Direct link to the SWvST cast: http://baldmove.com/podcasts/21

[Rama]

The Federation don't need planets to continue the war? Say whaaaaaat?

[Srelex]

Can we have a basic transcript of arguments and counter-arguments?

[Rama]

List of arguments put forth:

1) "The Federation have a weapon that the Empire cannot beat - transporters."

Shields. That's pretty much the counter-argument, although it has been put forth here many times and rebutted for numerous reasons.

2) "The Federation can beam out the gunner crews of Star Destroyers."

Shields, again.

3) "The Federation can beam entire starships into the sun."

Star Destroyers are shielded and are a mile long, previously the largest object they ever transported was a few Whales.

4) "The Rebels beat the Empire, therefore the Rebels could team up with the Federation to provide assistance."

5) "It takes weeks for a Federation vessel to cross their own minuscule territory, whilst the GE can cross the Galaxy in the space of a day."

6) "The GE have the advantage of speed (see above), the economy of an entire Galaxy (Death Stars, Star Destroyers) whilst the Federation fleet is a few hundred capital ships at most."

7) "Any planet of value has a planetary shield."

8A) "Shout out to Mike Wong and Saxton. Mentions the 1e38J Alderaan figure."

9) "The Ewoks beat the Empire with guerrilla war, so the Federation could if they fought a guerrilla war."

10) "Luke did not use the force to land the torpedo down the shaft, just his Womp Rat shooting experience."

11) "What if the Federation outfitted the Rebel ships with cloaks, transporters, red matter and every other device of the week?"

12) "The Federation can beam off the crew of the Death Star and toss them into the sun."

13) "The first Death Star was not shielded."

Not true, the novel Death Star makes numerous references to the Death Star having a planetary grade shield.

14) "The second Death Star was incapable of being shielded without the nearby planetary shield generator - they couldn't afford it."

15) "If you are the Federation and your only concern is destroying the Empire, what do you need planets for?"

-When the idea that planets are essential for the war effort is put forth-

"Why? Starships are essentially bases within themselves."

Bolded for emphasis.

16) "How do you stop a cloaked ship?"

17) "The Federation should amass a huge fleet of cloaked starships and surround the second Death Star and then beam away the entire crew at once."

18) "Beam red matter down the exhaust port of the first Death Star."

19) "Why didn't the Empire blow up planets to stop the Rebels much in the same way that the destruction of the Federation is proposed?"

20) "The Federation can get through the shields of a Star Destroyer - much in the same way Han accomplished - and beam the crew off the Star Destroyer."

21) "Star Destroyers have to vent their garbage, giving the Federation a chance to beam the crew off the Star Destroyer."

22) "Does the Empire have cloaking technology?"

[aronkerkhof]

Wow, thanks Rama. That was a lot of work!

I thought it was funny that without previous debating experience, everyone pretty much goes back to the hoary old chestnuts. I lay out a vision where the GE enjoys huge, insurmountable advantages in strategic and tactical speed, firepower, and manufacturing capacity, and the response is: Red Matter, transporters, and cloaking devices. Yeah, that's not getting it done.

In Jim's defense, I believe his crazier statements along the lines of the Federation doesn't need planets, and that Luke didn't need the Force to destroy the first Death Star, are his little way of conceding defeat. If you listen to him tell stories about his father in the gaming ethics podcast, that behavior is put into better context.

It is hard to debate two opponents at once (by the end I think Peter was gunning for Wars because of the guerrilla angle) without shouting them down or being a dick. Suddenly, cable news shows make so much more sense. A lot of the problem is there was so much basic information that was wrong it was hard to correct everything AND counter the general thrust of their argument. Like, Death Star has no shields. I thought I refuted that early on, but it kept coming back. And the fact that every scenario was either one lone Imperial ship sitting in dead space being harassed by a massive fleet of super cloaked red matter wielding uber-fed ships, or same scenario with a single wily Federation vessel being sneaky. The reality that they'd be dealing with coordinated fleets of massive Destroyers, who'd be moving thousands of times faster than them in a coordinated invasion effort, does not register.

So in other words, it basically went down like any other place the debate happens before it matures.

Thanks for listening! If we do it again, we'd have to have some sort of framework in place where it was a more formal give and take. But I'm not sure how entertaining that would be. I think I'll just attempt to engage Jim in the forums where things are a bit more organized.

[Ryushikaze]

While not a SW v ST specific feedback, the Podcast had quite a lot of echo in it.
Also, as a pet peeve, is there a way to organize episodes by overall date? I get the grouping by category, but I also like to be able to see a timeline of all the episodes for both casts.

One thing you should point out is that the ubertechniques that they propose against SW are never used for ST v ST battles. No mass beamout of crew in Trek.

And ST joining the Rebellion is conceding that the Feds can't win on their own. That's still the Rebellion winning verse the Empire, just with Picard and co helping.

Also, SW has demonstrated Cloaking tech in their ships, though they're rarely used in mass deployment to the scarcity of the raw materials they use, their power supply issues, and/or double blind issue on some models
However, ST ships are hardly perfectly cloaked, even by other ST ships. Cloaks are not a magical button of 'You can't see me'

And yes, the first Death Star had shields. the ANH novel mentions slipping between them.
The DS2 wasn't even finished yet- which was the point- so the harping about it only having shields while on Endor's moon is kind of kvtching about nothing.

If they want Red Matter and the one hit wonders, why not bring up Sun Crushers, World Devastators, Galaxy Guns, and Centerpoint station? At least most of those are reusable and theoretically retrievable.

[Azron_Stoma]

As for the Red Matter and the entire thread we had on how impractical it is as a weapon, aren't Interdictor Gravity Well generators capable of collapsing/dispersing/deactivating/canceling small black holes?

DS1 shields were rather rudimentary because even it couldn't power the weapons, Hyperdrive and shielding all at once without some kind of trade off. Instead their defense relied on heavy ECM, turbolasers, railguns, ion cannons, ACP Blasters, proton torpedo banks, fighters, "and a host of other protective devices, no naval ship of any size would be even a remote threat. A fleet of Imperial-class Star Destroyers—even a fleet of Super-class Star Destroyers, should such a thing ever exist—would offer no real danger to the battle station once it was fully operational." - Death Star novel page 22.

And without the Force or something as torpedo guidance, the Exhaust port won't be terribly exploitable either, due to said heavy ECM.

[aronkerkhof]

Hey, Ryushikaze, thanks for listening.

RE: Echo. Yes, this was actually the second podcast we ever recorded, we just didn't release it until just now. It took us several tries to nail down the process. I was amazed at how even where I sit in the house affected the quality of the audio, and we tried different headsets, software, etc, and I think it sounds good moving forward. We usually record 3-4 podcasts at a time, to ensure we don't miss our weekly delivery, which is why we had this one floating around.

Could you elaborate a little on organized by overall date? The casts are actually organized by the date they are released, in other words they are listed in chronological order. I think we'll have a better, more searchable interface in the near future, but for now the RSS feed is probably the best way to just kind of "browse" the available content. I'm interested in hearing about people's listening habits and how they like to organize things, so we can incorporate that in our plans since we're very much at the "ground floor" in terms of our show.

Very good points. Goddamn, I'm rusty! I think Peter touched on the fact that you really never see transporters used as a front line offensive weapon. Occasionally they get tricky with it or beam the Weapon of Doom of the day onto a ship, but from the series standpoint it is impractical. I tried to make the point that the Feds just throwing in with the Rebels would basically mean SW vs SW, with Trek as vassals perhaps supplying boots and primitive manufacturing. Not exactly the scenario we usually think of when we are arguing these things.

We did mention the fact that cloaks are not unheard of in the SW galaxy, just that their uses are specialized. I expressed doubt that Trek level cloaks would phase the Empire in the least. Like wearing camoflague against an enemy that can detect your body heat.

Indeed, if we do another cast, I'm only going to allow him a certain amount of time to propose new tactics before I present the superweapons of the Empire and ask how he is going to deal with those.

Azron_Stoma, wow, do you recall where Interdictors are shown having that capacity? Red Matter is clearly fucked up, for several reasons we discuss on the show -- why do you have to put it in a planet core? Why not drop it in the system's sun? It seems to work okay against a starship, so again, why go to all the trouble to drill a planet? And against a shielded planet, which nearly all important worlds are, it would be useless.

Also, the elephant in the room is, exactly how are the ships going to use Red Matter against Imperial worlds? They can't move fast enough to get more than one or two in some surprise assault, which isn't really their style. They wouldn't destroy their own worlds in some sort of scorched (imploded!) earth strategy, would they? Maybe they would, since they don't really need planets. Hahaha.

[Gramzamber]

You know that's basically a list of almost every retarded Trekkie argument that was long since pounded into the dust long ago.
Seems like someone missed the "golden age" of ST vs SW and wants to start all over again.

[Srelex]

You know that's basically a list of almost every retarded Trekkie argument that was long since pounded into the dust long ago.
Seems like someone missed the "golden age" of ST vs SW and wants to start all over again.

On that thought, did they go as far as to bring up 'no lasers?'

[Batman]

The moment they bring up Red Matter the entirety of Trek other than the new movie is out, because that movie painfully obviously happens in a completely different continuity (parallel universe, different timeline, whatever way you want to put it) so the Trek side does NOT get to keep the traditional Trek canon on top of the obviously decidedly different nuTrek canon. They want Red Matter they get the new movie and THAT'S IT.

[Eframepilot]

The moment they bring up Red Matter the entirety of Trek other than the new movie is out, because that movie painfully obviously happens in a completely different continuity (parallel universe, different timeline, whatever way you want to put it) so the Trek side does NOT get to keep the traditional Trek canon on top of the obviously decidedly different nuTrek canon. They want Red Matter they get the new movie and THAT'S IT.

Ah, but Red Matter was supposedly invented in the 24th century of the original timeline, wasn't it? (Though personally I prefer the theory that even the original timeline of the new movie was a separate universe from the ENT-TOS-TNG-etc. main continuity.)

[Batman]

The moment they bring up Red Matter the entirety of Trek other than the new movie is out, because that movie painfully obviously happens in a completely different continuity (parallel universe, different timeline, whatever way you want to put it) so the Trek side does NOT get to keep the traditional Trek canon on top of the obviously decidedly different nuTrek canon. They want Red Matter they get the new movie and THAT'S IT.

Ah, but Red Matter was supposedly invented in the 24th century of the original timeline, wasn't it? (Though personally I prefer the theory that even the original timeline of the new movie was a separate universe from the ENT-TOS-TNG-etc. main continuity.)

As evidenced by what exactly? I can't recall any mention of Red Matter in oldTrek and while Trek is notorious for forgetting about technologies that would be really nifty to keep about but would require the writers to actually deal with the consequences of said technology being around so let's-NOT keep them around, there nevertheless never WAS no mention of Red Matter in it.
NuTrek has to stand on its own.

[Argosh]

I listened to a couple of podcasts on that page, besides the SWvsST one the most fun was the badasses podcast.

[aronkerkhof]

Ha, no, not quite to lasers-can't-penetrate-our-navigation-deflector levels of retardation, but close. I directed Jim to SD.Net and he has since been enlightened, but claims to still have some good arguments left. We'll see.

I forgot that if they bring Red Matter to the fight, they're literally throwing out the rest of Trek cannon. Hahaha...

I'm glad you enjoyed the BadAssCast, Argosh. I never would have guessed by your avatar. I think you might also enjoy the Zombie Survival Draft that goes live tomorrow. The format is, conduct a fantasy football style draft, where the talent pool consists of any fictional or real life person. The goal is to build yourself a 10 person team to help you survive a global zombie apocalypse. The rules: no villains, cyborgs, robots, androids, aliens, or super powers. The villain rule is fairly obvious, the other rules were there just to make things interesting beyond "I select Superman, and win", etc. You can also can't double dip on characters ("I want the Keaton, Kilmer, Cooney, and Bale Batmans as my first four picks..."), or actors ("I want Dutch from Predator AND John Matrix from Commando".) It ended up being a really fun show.

[Gramzamber]

Red Matter is a terrible weapon anyway. Aside from the fact that it's fucking magic, you evidentally have to sit there in your ship drilling a hole to the core to make it any kind of dangerous planet-killing weapon.
That may be fine for NuTrek (well, sort of) but you'd never get away with that in Star Wars! They might as well rally behind the Xindi planet killer, at least it has some practicality as a weapon.

[Argosh]

Zombie Survival Draft? Sounds like fun, looking forward to it

[Kamakazie Sith]

As evidenced by what exactly? I can't recall any mention of Red Matter in oldTrek and while Trek is notorious for forgetting about technologies that would be really nifty to keep about but would require the writers to actually deal with the consequences of said technology being around so let's-NOT keep them around, there nevertheless never WAS no mention of Red Matter in it.
NuTrek has to stand on its own.

No, it doesn't have to stand on its own. Old Spock and Red Matter clearly came from the original timeline. Besides, Red Matter sucks as a weapon even when you compare it against the conventional forces of the Galactic Empire.

[Batman]

No, it doesn't have to stand on its own. Old Spock and Red Matter clearly came from the original timeline.

As evidenced by what, exactly? Old Spock being played by Nimoy? Because that's the ONLY think connecting classic Trek to the new movie.

[adam_grif]

Until the timewarp, can we not assume it was the original cannon that the time-travelers were coming from? If not, why not?

[Darth Paxis]

Well there is the part where Kirk and Spock board the Jellyfish and the ship computer lists the stardate as 2387 instead of the 5-digit number used in TNG and beyond.

[Batman]

Until the timewarp, can we not assume it was the original cannon that the time-travelers were coming from? If not, why not?

You can ASSUME that all you want. There's simply no actual EVIDENCE for it. OTHER than old Spock being played by Nimoy and it being a Star Trek movie there's NOTHING connecting that movie to Trek as we knew it.

[adam_grif]

And where's the evidence that the bits before the timetraveling isn't star trek? Do we automatically assume every new entry in a franchise takes place in it's own timeline until we get some kind of official confirmation otherwise? We know most of the content of the movie takes place in a new alternate timeline, but there isn't any good reason to think that aside from this, it's somehow a different cannon.

Well there is the part where Kirk and Spock board the Jellyfish and the ship computer lists the stardate as 2387 instead of the 5-digit number used in TNG and beyond.

If it was used TNG and beyond, and this is set a considerable time before TNG, I would think that this is something of a non-issue? What were the dates used in ToS?

[Kamakazie Sith]

No, it doesn't have to stand on its own. Old Spock and Red Matter clearly came from the original timeline.

As evidenced by what, exactly? Old Spock being played by Nimoy? Because that's the ONLY think connecting classic Trek to the new movie.

You're the one implying (claiming) that he is from a different universe. Using your basis I could imply that the prequels are from a different universe because R2-D2 never had rockets, the actor for Darth Vader changes, and several other inconsistencies.

Though if you want some evidence it is briefly touched on in the movie that Spock was working with the Romulan government which is something he did in TNG. Therefore, it is consistent with what we know from the original TNG timeline.

[Darth Paxis]

If it was used TNG and beyond, and this is set a considerable time before TNG, I would think that this is something of a non-issue? What were the dates used in ToS?

The issue comes from the fact that the Jellyfish's own computer lists its manufacturing date as stardate 2387, meaning that the "Prime" timeline uses the same stardate system as the Trek XI timeline, a system which is different from the system in TNG era Trek, which would indicate that the "Prime" timeline is different from the original continuity.

As for TOS stardates, AFAIK they would just pick a number that sounded good, with no real structure or consistency.