Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

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mr friendly guy
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by mr friendly guy »

Big Orange wrote:@mr friendly guy - So the Time Lords were pricks before in the EU, right? That time with no excuse of staring down several massive gun barrels (ie. the Daleks, Lord President 007, and the myriad awful super-weapons, creatures, and memes resulting from the War).
Well the TL have "a billion years" of history, although if you go by the statement in Genesis of the Daleks that they mastered such intercept transmat technology when the universe was half its present size one would think that gave them billions of years of history. In any event, them being pricks was around the time of Rassilon and slightly after (so his successors might have been less evil, or maybe they just didn't like him so they deposed him if the legend is to be believed). By the time of the classical series they had become relatively benign, although by the end corrupt elements were again acting like pricks. Not surprising since some countries seem to change a lot with different people in power, so its quite conceivable over millions and billions of years TL behaviour would fluctuate depending on culture and who was in power. As to whether it will fluctuate in less time... well there is the time war and president Bond.

As to whether those creatures were really a threat to the TL, the Doctor doesn't think so from pieces of lore that remains.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Johonebesus »

I have a questions for the Brits. Was the season premier longer than a normal episode? Last week this episode ran for about seventy-five minutes, including commercials, but this week it was repeated with a normal hour's length. I could accept minor edits, a frame here or there to get an extra minute or two, but I do wonder if sometimes we miss out on potentially important dialogue so BBCA can get an extra five minutes of commercials. The scene in The Doctor's Daughter where she was shot seemed weird, as if there was something missing.

Also, why are they showing STTNG? If they want to run an old science fiction series, why not classic Doctor Who, or Red Dwarf, Blake 7, UFO, or even the Thunderbirds? TNG is already shown on a half dozen cable channels.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Patrick Degan »

Johonebesus wrote:I have a questions for the Brits. Was the season premier longer than a normal episode? Last week this episode ran for about seventy-five minutes, including commercials, but this week it was repeated with a normal hour's length. I could accept minor edits, a frame here or there to get an extra minute or two, but I do wonder if sometimes we miss out on potentially important dialogue so BBCA can get an extra five minutes of commercials. The scene in The Doctor's Daughter where she was shot seemed weird, as if there was something missing.
To show the full-length episode without commercial cuts, they extend the airtime.
Also, why are they showing STTNG? If they want to run an old science fiction series, why not classic Doctor Who, or Red Dwarf, Blake 7, UFO, or even the Thunderbirds? TNG is already shown on a half dozen cable channels.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Johonebesus »

Patrick Degan wrote:
Johonebesus wrote:I have a questions for the Brits. Was the season premier longer than a normal episode? Last week this episode ran for about seventy-five minutes, including commercials, but this week it was repeated with a normal hour's length. I could accept minor edits, a frame here or there to get an extra minute or two, but I do wonder if sometimes we miss out on potentially important dialogue so BBCA can get an extra five minutes of commercials. The scene in The Doctor's Daughter where she was shot seemed weird, as if there was something missing.
To show the full-length episode without commercial cuts, they extend the airtime.
I know that, and that doesn't answer my question. I was asking if this one episode was in fact a few minutes longer than normal, because if it wasn't, then evidently we always get to miss about five minutes, just like most showings of Star Trek nowadays.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Crazedwraith »

Yes, Eleventh Hour was a longer than normal episode.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Big Orange »

mr friendly guy wrote:By the time of the classical series they had become relatively benign, although by the end corrupt elements were again acting like pricks. Not surprising since some countries seem to change a lot with different people in power, so its quite conceivable over millions and billions of years TL behaviour would fluctuate depending on culture and who was in power. As to whether it will fluctuate in less time... well there is the time war and president Bond.
I think there has always been a lot of ambiguity surrounding the Time Lords, even in "The End of Time" where they were full on antagonists, corrupted/battle hardened by the Time War and the iron rule of Bondsillion. Though they were not really worse than the Daleks, since their so-called Final Sanction sounds more like the Krillitanes' plan from "School Reunion" rather than that ridiculous Reality Bomb built by Davros' Daleks in "Journey's End" - Lord President 007 wanted to reboot the Universe rather than erase it, with his species becoming the rebooted Universes' new gods, with the inescapable Time War nullified (along with everything else). Though the Daleks wanted to nullify the Universe altogether and not just their Universe but also the rest of the Multiverse, in relation at least the Time Lords wanted to recreate the Universe (narcissistically in their own image like they always tried to do in eons past, but still).

And what about that Time Lady who tried to talk the Gallifrey emergency council out of initiating the ruthless Final Sanction? She got instantly murdered by 007 by having grave moral misgivings, while that other mysterious Time Lady (implied of being the Doctor's relative/friend/lover) was being more cunning about steering the Time Lords away from the Final Sanction by manipulating Wilfred.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Gramzamber »

Gotta love Lord President Bond's method of ruling.
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Yeah well Rassilon (if it was actually him) was an odd nutter. And if it was just another Lord President wackjob, he can hardly be much worse in his style of leadership than the last appearance of Borusa, who framed the Castellan for possesing the "Black Scrolls of Rassilon" then had him murdered while "escaping"
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by NecronLord »

Big Orange wrote:I think there has always been a lot of ambiguity surrounding the Time Lords, even in "The End of Time" where they were full on antagonists, corrupted/battle hardened by the Time War and the iron rule of Bondsillion. Though they were not really worse than the Daleks, since their so-called Final Sanction sounds more like the Krillitanes' plan from "School Reunion" rather than that ridiculous Reality Bomb built by Davros' Daleks in "Journey's End" - Lord President 007 wanted to reboot the Universe rather than erase it,
No he didn't. He was loudly shouting END OF TIME. Not END OF TIME AND THEN A RESET. Burden of proof's on you to show he meant other than what he said.
with his species becoming the rebooted Universes' new gods, with the inescapable Time War nullified (along with everything else). Though the Daleks wanted to nullify the Universe altogether and not just their Universe but also the rest of the Multiverse, in relation at least the Time Lords wanted to recreate the Universe (narcissistically in their own image like they always tried to do in eons past, but still).

And what about that Time Lady who tried to talk the Gallifrey emergency council out of initiating the ruthless Final Sanction? She got instantly murdered by 007 by having grave moral misgivings, while that other mysterious Time Lady (implied of being the Doctor's relative/friend/lover) was being more cunning about steering the Time Lords away from the Final Sanction by manipulating Wilfred.
I don't think anyone's denying that there's good Time Lords.

And honestly, the Final Sanction, in the situation they're in, is preferable. Seriously. Next time the daleks build a Reality Bomb, which the fuckers would, what's to say the Doctor wouldn't just get shot on full power and killed, the end even if he found it in time?

At least with the Final Sanction, someone not-dalek would survive.

Assuming I had reasonably full knowledge of the topic, and the Doc's character shields are discounted, were I on the High Council, I would say: Fuck it, the universe is boned anyway. I'm going to ascend. *Votes for the Final Sanction*
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Very true. The Final Sanction, whilst sounding just a bit similar to the Final Solution, is defintely prefereable to Daleks blowing up the entire multiverse with their wankality bomb
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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Gemini-Preserver »

Just re-watching it for the 12th time now. Couple more points that spring to mind.
When the coma paitents start calling out. There calling for the Doctor. Though how do they know the Doctor? Im guessing it's always had a mental link through Amy and becasue Amy is dateing Roary she may have visited the paitents?
As for channelling previous incarnations, how about when he asks Amy where he is (before the frankly wounderful post office line) He is very much walking in the style of Eccelstone in my eyes.

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Re: Doctor Who: "The Eleventh Hour" [spoilers]

Post by Big Orange »

NecronLord wrote: No he didn't. He was loudly shouting END OF TIME. Not END OF TIME AND THEN A RESET. Burden of proof's on you to show he meant other than what he said.
OK, ok, Lord President never specifically said anything about recreating the Universe, but at least the Final Sanction would leave a dimensional realm with the ascended Time Lords floating about in it.
I don't think anyone's denying that there's good Time Lords.

And honestly, the Final Sanction, in the situation they're in, is preferable. Seriously. Next time the daleks build a Reality Bomb, which the fuckers would, what's to say the Doctor wouldn't just get shot on full power and killed, the end even if he found it in time?

At least with the Final Sanction, someone not-dalek would survive.

Assuming I had reasonably full knowledge of the topic, and the Doc's character shields are discounted, were I on the High Council, I would say: Fuck it, the universe is boned anyway. I'm going to ascend. *Votes for the Final Sanction*
I agree with that, their "fuck everything" plan was not quite as nihilistic and destructive as the Dalek's equivalent. The Time Lords seemingly being cartoonishly evil is mostly down to the actions of Lord President 007, with most of the other Time Lord underlings acting like meek rabbits in the headlights; it didn't help it that Timothy Dalton was turning in a moustache twirling perfomance, though he still exuded more nobility and ambiguity than the Daleks and Davros (Dalton was not a bad choice, but other actors for the role that would've been just as OK as Rassilon could've been Sean Pertwee, David Warner, and Brian Blessed).
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