The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Darth Wong]

I can certainly understand "quantuming" away the second and third issues; they're conceivably possible with sufficiently advanced technology. The first issue, though, is simply a matter of Newton's laws being violated. If a 70 ton tank lurches to one direction, *something* is going to experience a huge impulse in the other.

There are a couple of possible mitigating circumstances:

1) The angel might be enormously strong, and well-anchored to something (the ground, a heavy structure, etc).

2) The angel might be launching some sort of pseudo-magic projectile which creates an explosive effect at the point of contact, so that the reaction forces are exerted on the air around the burst, rather than the originating angel.

[CaptainChewbacca]

All other professionals at DIMO(N) were offered healthy compensation, yes? That stage seems to have been skipped for Chestnut. So they saving money argument doesn't really hold water. Nor does the 'and use force if needed' part, since he *was* willing to work if they paid him a salary appropiet to the uniqueness of his skill. There are thousands of executives in America with 6 figure incomes. His requests were extravigent, but not completely unreasonable since (once again) the US government effectively pays the baulk of those salaries already to the Boeing and LockMart CEOs.

Chestnut was offered fair rates as a civilian contractor for DIMO(N), he tried to play hard ball by (I believe) slamming a portal shut dangerously close to human beings and putting critical operations in hell at risk. He was drafted (and yes, you can draft specific people) to expedite his contribution to the war efforts.

Sparky, well, during general draft times it can be unlawful for men of age without a good excuse to NOT be in the military, so he would have been snatched up.

Except that the specifics of her charge was that she was 'talking to an inhabitant of heaven' an act more usually referred to as prayer; and considered by many a vital part of Christianity. So in effect she was arrested for being a practicing Christian in a time when the 'christian' god was an enemy of the state. Now turning to the law books, we have part of the constitution saying you can't talk to god (because of treason), and another part of the constitution stating that we specifically cannot legally stop you talking to your god (because of the 1st amendment). That appears to be a conflict/loophole, one that is present because no one has ever considered god as a potential enemy of the state. Also, if what you said about precedence is true, then the 1st amendment overrides the whole constitution when it comes to religion, including the part about treason. So that would make her not a traitor.

That's bull freaking crap and you know it. She wasn't asking God to take care of her mommy and daddy and make the monsters go away and help her tummyache, she was giving specific, detailed information of a military nature to an agent of a foreign power. Your first ammendment rights do NOT supercede laws against treason. Moreover, constitutional rights can be suspended during times of national crisis (Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus), and you are taking VERY liberal use of the phrase 'talking to god', and any judge worth his salt would have you disbarred for making such a ludicrous argument:

Your honor, treason is protected under my client's right to religious freedom.

Pedophiles, rapists, and drug users have all tried that defense at one time or another, and we like them BETTER than traitors. At best she's an enemy spy if she considers herself a citizen of heaven, but we have laws against espionage, too. If you think you can get away with EITHER of those crimes on a technicality while Detroit and New York are still smouldering, you need a boot to the head.

Are you sure Branch helped with attacks on Earth? Has Michael actually used any information she's passed on? Did she pass on any information beyond DEMO(N)'s location? Given that he doesn't seem to have noticed her capture, she can't have been passing him information that regularly.

Given it was her information allowed heaven to correctly target the attack of the second beast on a critical military installation, I don't think anyone is doubting her complicity in the attack.

But the image of some DEMO(N) officials that springs to mind isn't a Dirty Harry style cop, but rather a giggling child. "HeHeHe! I got to hurt someone I don't like and got away with it! Aren't I clever! HeHeHe!" It is poor logic to use the excuse that there are worse people out there as an excuse for acts which are at best morally questionable.

I think you've got some 'morally questionable' issues of your own. First off, DIMO(N) had fuckall to do with Sparky, that was Pentagon regular. Second, the forced conscription of Chestnut (which was legal) was vital to the war effort. It wasn't a question of like or dislike, it was necessity, and most of the corrections doled out to him were on behalf of his superiors in the Marines, who are also not a part of DIMO(N).

Then we come back to Branch. The traitor. The woman who has confessed to giving classified military knowledge to the enemy. The greatest, most dangerous enemy our nation (or any nation) has ever faced, in a time when major cities with populations in the millions are getting levelled at a rate of roughly one a month. To get critical information out of her, we allowed her to be terrified to the core of her very soul. She wasn't harmed during her interrogation, and the information she gave saved lives.

You can climb up on a horse and say 'One act of cruelty is one too many' but if it were me in that room with her and I was the only one who could do it, I'd burn her with a hot iron if I thought it would save a thousand lives. If you can't say the same, well, that's why the government has people who do this job. DIMON isn't petty children satisfying grudges, it is a collection of intelligent people making impossible decisions several times a day, knowing full well that no matter what they choose some people will die. Its just like with Tel Aviv; sometimes there is no good choice or right answer, so you take your acceptable losses and move on.

[Gogyra]

There are a couple of possible mitigating circumstances:<snip>

Ok, magic it is, then. I don't mind the suspension of disbelief; I was just hoping someone had already come up with an interesting explanation.

[R011]

Two things:

Drafting "Sparky" is based on "Rule of Funny". Lighten up Francis.

Secondly, the person on whom "Sparky" is based is a former US Army Reserve First Lieutenant and apparently a qualified parachutist. He was serving at least as late as the mid-1990's. He's probably under forty and in reasonably good shape. If he isn't, then recall that this is a work of fiction and the character "Sparky" doesn't have to have the same draft catageory as the real one. He was likely reactivated rather than actually drafted - not that people always use terms like that exactly correctly. I dare say that with the war emergency, they have more than enough power to bring him back.

[xthetenth]

Draft =/= grabbing people off the street and beating them until they say, "Yes sir." That's more usually called 'press ganging'.

If you would kindly note that the people doing the "drafting" (less that and denying an exemption due to him being very unreliable and demanding extortionate sums, which I'd be willing to bet he'd add to if anything, and once he isn't employed by the government as a portaller, he's suddenly available for the draft again) are not the same people? I can't believe how dense you're being on this point.

Well here's the difference of opinion. I think if you deliberately throw someone into a pit full of angry bears then you are responsible for the injuries they get. I also think anyone who disagrees with that definition of responsibility is an idiot, and anyone who claims, "Oh but I didn't know that would happen," is a liar and/or a moral coward. Ethics aside, putting Branch in the general population might also be questionable for military reasons. Spies are potential intelligence assets as double agents. I do not believe it is sensible to risk their lives so casually.

If you can tell me where throwing someone into a pit full of angry bears is the proscribed response to drafting someone or imprisoning them, I'll tell you somewhere I'm never going in my life. Levity aside, in Chestnut's case, he was provided with two soldiers to take him to his new posting, which is relatively normal, it's his own fault the soldiers dislike him so much, and beating him up is their issue. In the case of Miss Branch, this comparison fails so utterly it beggars belief. Not only is imprisoning her the standard response (she wasn't cooperating in the least so why should she be treated as a valuable intelligence asset? Especially when the first death is immaterial to said value and would probably break her faster, making the truly coldblooded analysis lean towards killing her), but taking guards to provide a special watch over her would strain the (likely reduced due to the draft) guards, which would put the other prisoners in danger from their enemies. In both cases the decisions which led to what you're complaining about are the standard response to the situation, and in the second case, harms other people in order to provide special protection to a traitor.

[Stuart]

I can certainly understand "quantuming" away the second and third issues; they're conceivably possible with sufficiently advanced technology. The first issue, though, is simply a matter of Newton's laws being violated. If a 70 ton tank lurches to one direction, *something* is going to experience a huge impulse in the other.

The way the trumpeting works is to emit a scanning note that find the correct frequency to provide positive feed back with the natural harmonic of the structure under attack. Once that correct frequency is discovered, the angel shifts to that note in an absolutely pure form in which all the energy of the note is concentrated into a single spot frequency. This sets up sympathetic vibrations in the target and shakes it to pieces. As was shown on Mythbusters not so long ago

Remember also, the laws of physics are slightly different in Hell. Actually, to be more accurate, the laws relating to a given phenomena in Hell and Earth are both special cases of a higher general law that covers both. Humans are investigating that now (in the TSWverse anyway).

The actual thing is I wanted to give the Angels at least something they could figt with and the Bible etc is full of talk about trumpeting so . . . .. .. . . . .

[JBG]

Thanks. I was wondering about how trumpeting works.

However, it seems more powerful than what deamons had. How did they attempt a siege of the Eternal City if they were outnumbered and had inferior weapons?

[open_sketchbook]

I know large scale airborne operations are pretty much obsolete, but it would be damn cool to have troops parachuting into Heaven at some point.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Thanks. I was wondering about how trumpeting works.

However, it seems more powerful than what deamons had. How did they attempt a siege of the Eternal City if they were outnumbered and had inferior weapons?

You're assuming the war was a quick thing. It lasted for milennia, and in that time the demons were breeding like crazy. They had superior numbers. Also, keep in mind a trumpet-blast seems to be only capable of single targeting, so no matter how powerful it is you can only kill one demon at a time with it.

[Stuart]

Thanks. I was wondering about how trumpeting works. However, it seems more powerful than what deamons had. How did they attempt a siege of the Eternal City if they were outnumbered and had inferior weapons?

They hit first, hot hard and were fully mobilized so they caught the Angelic Host unprepared. You know, it might be fun to write a history of the Great Celestial War one day. Assuming TSW doesn't get me whacked.

[xthetenth]

Thanks. I was wondering about how trumpeting works.

However, it seems more powerful than what deamons had. How did they attempt a siege of the Eternal City if they were outnumbered and had inferior weapons?

You're assuming the war was a quick thing. It lasted for milennia, and in that time the demons were breeding like crazy. They had superior numbers. Also, keep in mind a trumpet-blast seems to be only capable of single targeting, so no matter how powerful it is you can only kill one demon at a time with it.

Additionally, something working on resonance is going to hit a more regular shape like a tank a lot harder than an organic being, with all the various irregularities, they'd be lucky to get resonance going in a single bone, let alone hitting more than one demon, and although shattering bones is nasty, lightning upside the face is probably the more instantly harmful.

Thanks. I was wondering about how trumpeting works. However, it seems more powerful than what deamons had. How did they attempt a siege of the Eternal City if they were outnumbered and had inferior weapons?

They hit first, hot hard and were fully mobilized so they caught the Angelic Host unprepared. You know, it might be fun to write a history of the Great Celestial War one day. Assuming TSW doesn't get me whacked.

Sounds awesome, and I'd really appreciate it if you didn't get whacked. By the way, do you have a link to where you explain your feelings for McNamara? I'd really like to see why you feel so strongly about him.

[JN1]

AFAIK after you are drafted/conscripted the army can post you wherever it wants. You are their property. Btw press-ganging was a form of conscription and perfectly legal.
I believe the Army Act still allows for the reintroduction of conscription without any further legislation from Parliament and the Selective Service Administration exists in the US to, well, as its name suggests administer the draft, were one introduced.

If a government chooses to draft/conscript a recalcitrant individual to help the war effort then it has the power to do that. Remember that the British government threatened the BAE Systems management with being conscripted and the company nationalised if it mucked around with defence contracts.

[nobody_really]

Stuart, Thank you, thank you, thank you for the update. I wasn't expecting one for a few weeks. Anyway, I only have a question about Ohiel-Lan-Epidan. He was described as both a Cherubim and an Ishim. Are they the same, or was this just a typo?

Belial's Camp, Heaven.

"Most Blessed Lord, the human army is approaching. Already their war machines are near our walls." Ohiel-Lan-Epidan wasn't quite sure how to address Belial. A Grand Duke in Hell was, or had been, the equivalent of a Chayot Ha Kodesh but to give one of the Fallen the same titles seemed wrong on too many levels. Yet Belial was doubtless in charge here and was favored by The Almighty Father Of All. Had not He Who Is Above All himself placed this Grand Duke in charge of this place of punishment? And had not Belial chosen him, a lowly Cherubim as one of the guards here. Ohiel-Lan-Epidan had taken to his work very quickly, with the authority granted to him he had been able to take down the arrogant Seraphim and Hashmallim who had once lorded their superiority over the lower ranks of Angels. Now they whimpered in the mud while he, Ohiel, a mere Ishim, had his foot on their necks.

(Emphasis added)

[Nematocyst]

Stuart, Thank you, thank you, thank you for the update. I wasn't expecting one for a few weeks. Anyway, I only have a question about Ohiel-Lan-Epidan. He was described as both a Cherubim and an Ishim. Are they the same, or was this just a typo?

Cherubim is a species (an apparently human sized Angel). Ishim is a rank.
So Ohiel can perfectly be a Cherubim and an Ishim.

I know I'm just a snot-nosed, two-post newbie, but what did you think of my loudspeaker-wielding, heavy-metal-spewing tank idea, Stuart? I was hoping the breaking into Belial's camp would be made by the sound of distorted guitars... :p

Sounds good, but I see two problems with that:

1_: The military has a tendency to give things that work a higher priority than things that are awesome. That's why you don't see them building mechs and huge tanks with many turrets (the Nazis totally should've built that P-1000!)
2_: Chant apparently empowers Angels. They just were forced to believe only singing about how much they like kissing Yahweh's ass has this effect, but Michael knows this is not the case. Blasting Sabaton during our conquest of Heaven sounds awesome, but we don't need to fight a more powerful enemy if we can help it. Also, we're past psychological warfare.

Our only chant, our only song, will be the sound of fire from our weapons.

[Scorpion]

Sounds good, but I see two problems with that:

1_: The military has a tendency to give things that work a higher priority than things that are awesome. That's why you don't see them building mechs and huge tanks with many turrets (the Nazis totally should've built that P-1000!)

All we need is a Lance Corporal with some initiative, good musical taste and a nicked(?) PA set! I wasn't sugesting it would be something official, just a jury-rigged thing...

2_: Chant apparently empowers Angels. They just were forced to believe only singing about how much they like kissing Yahweh's ass has this effect, but Michael knows this is not the case. Blasting Sabaton during our conquest of Heaven sounds awesome, but we don't need to fight a more powerful enemy if we can help it. Also, we're past psychological warfare.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believed that, while chanting is the angel's basic "charge up", chanting is more effective when the singer likes what he's singing. That's why Mikey (which I hope ends up in the hands of very capable 2nd life NKVD officers) rescued all those jazz legends for his choir at the monmartre club, isn't it?

If that's correct, the inverse may be true: if the music is something that is alien or unpleasent to the angel, his charging ability may be affected. I can imagine a host of angels, who have heard nothing but church music since Jesus sold us on the biggest scam EVAR, being scared shitless when those funny square things with tubes on 'em starts spewing out sounds as loud as the fury of GOD and a growling gutural voice screaming "DEATH IN THE SHAPE OF A PANZER BATTALION!!!".

Imagine your greatgrandpa listening to Slayer for the first time x10 000.

Our only chant, our only song, will be the sound of fire from our weapons.

Can't argue with that.

Can I has some 203 mm howitzer M1931 (B-4)?

[xthetenth]

2_: Chant apparently empowers Angels. They just were forced to believe only singing about how much they like kissing Yahweh's ass has this effect, but Michael knows this is not the case. Blasting Sabaton during our conquest of Heaven sounds awesome, but we don't need to fight a more powerful enemy if we can help it. Also, we're past psychological warfare.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believed that, while chanting is the angel's basic "charge up", chanting is more effective when the singer likes what he's singing. That's why Mikey (which I hope ends up in the hands of very capable 2nd life NKVD officers) rescued all those jazz legends for his choir at the monmartre club, isn't it?

If that's correct, the inverse may be true: if the music is something that is alien or unpleasent to the angel, his charging ability may be affected. I can imagine a host of angels, who have heard nothing but church music since Jesus sold us on the biggest scam EVAR, being scared shitless when those funny square things with tubes on 'em starts spewing out sounds as loud as the fury of GOD and a growling gutural voice screaming "DEATH IN THE SHAPE OF A PANZER BATTALION!!!".

Why not skip the middleman and crank the gain on static? Functionally random with no structure whatsoever, the angels would hate that.

[Scorpion]

Why not skip the middleman and crank the gain on static? Functionally random with no structure whatsoever, the angels would hate that.

I hereby invoke the Rule Of Cool.

[Bayonet]

Drafting Private Chestnut was because they could since there was a draft on

Draft =/= grabbing people off the street and beating them until they say, "Yes sir." That's more usually called 'press ganging'. The SSS documents that I have been able to find says he merely has to have 'an occupation' (portal aerial) not 'a job'. And indeed a person can have an occupation (career) even if they are currently without a job. I think that the portal equipment counts as a vital war industry. Consider if your interpretation was true.

Do not underestimate what can and will be done in a popular, existential war. There are no rules, other than to get the job done.

Then in times of war the US government could save huge amounts of money (which is always a problem in times of war) by drafting the entire population of Boeing and Lockheed and insist that $50k+ professionals and executives suddenly have to make do with $1000 a month - minus deductions.

Because they aren't stupid. Professionals are worth their salt. So are skilled workers. They work best when treated decently. PITAs are expendable. If some NCO can't beat Chestnut into shape, no loss. He can mop floors. Or die. Don't piss off The System. You will lose.

it's a lottery, with rules ... If it was done personaly and only for Chestnut, simply because he was unpleasent, then we do appear to come back to the abuse of power issue.

The System makes the rules. Remember, this war is considered existential. Get in the way, and you will be crushed like a bug. We'll sort out the small stuff, later. Power is to be used to achieve the objective. Nothing else, and no one else matters. If there is a certain amount of wastage in the system, well, it's not perfect. You don't have to like it. You do have to do your job.

Again, she was arrested for treason, not Christianity.

Except that the specifics of her charge was that she was 'talking to an inhabitant of heaven' an act more usually referred to as prayer; and considered by many a vital part of Christianity.

The Treason part trumps the First Amendment. Remember the existentiality of the situation. Even in today's world, Treason will trump the 1st, every time. There is no Constitutionally protected right to commit crime.

the 1st amendment overrides the whole constitution when it comes to religion, including the part about treason. So that would make her not a traitor.

The other way around, I'm afraid. I'm pretty sure there is even case law, probably dating back to the 18C on this point.

My problem is with the law. I don't doubt what she did.

In extremis, the law would be ignored. We'll sort the small stuff out, later.

Are you sure Branch helped with attacks on Earth? Has Michael actually used any information she's passed on? Did she pass on any information beyond DEMO(N)'s location?

That would have been a Matter of Fact for the jury to decide. Since she was convicted, I think it is safe to assume that Twelve Good Folk and True decided that she had, in fact, done whatever she had been charged with.

"HeHeHe! I got to hurt someone I don't like and got away with it! Aren't I clever! HeHeHe!" It is poor logic to use the excuse that there are worse people out there as an excuse for acts which are at best morally questionable.

That would be tolerated under the circumstances. People might shake their heads over what they did and what they tolerated, later. Maybe even during. The best part of war is ugly beyond belief.

Fear not. It will get worse.

[Bayonet]

Once martial law is declared, the government gets wide latitude to do all kinds of things, do they not? Or has martial law not been declared? I was under the impression that it was. Entire cities have been destroyed, after all.

Probably only locally, and for short periods. Normal law works well enough, particularly if you aren't too careful about the details that upset you.

[Bayonet]

any judge worth his salt would have you disbarred for making such a ludicrous argument

Meh. That's probably not even high uyp on the list of ludicrous arguments lawyers make in court.

'd burn her with a hot iron if I thought it would save a thousand lives.

<Uploading beer>

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder if the 'slavery sans punishment (provided your Angel isn't an asshole)' afterlife is worth spending this life auditioning for that one.

If you're a medieval peasant, damn straight it is.

Basically, you get to go from being a medieval peasant to being a medieval peasant... who is immune to disease, never gets old, heals from any accidental injuries, and can't suffer a famine, in the best climate you can imagine. And your overlord probably isn't any more of a dick than whatever random warlord ruled you back in your first life, either. That is a sweet deal, by utilitarian standards.

Now, from my point of view, I don't really want to be a medieval peasant in the afterlife. But that's because I have a different starting point for comparison; I'm not a medieval peasant now, so naturally becoming one in the future holds little appeal for me. I don't consider the position of second lifers in Heaven to be enviable. But it's definitely a major upgrade from what they got in their first life.

[nightwyrm]

I wonder if the 'slavery sans punishment (provided your Angel isn't an asshole)' afterlife is worth spending this life auditioning for that one.

If you're a medieval peasant, damn straight it is.

Basically, you get to go from being a medieval peasant to being a medieval peasant... who is immune to disease, never gets old, heals from any accidental injuries, and can't suffer a famine, in the best climate you can imagine. And your overlord probably isn't any more of a dick than whatever random warlord ruled you back in your first life, either. That is a sweet deal, by utilitarian standards.

Now, from my point of view, I don't really want to be a medieval peasant in the afterlife. But that's because I have a different starting point for comparison; I'm not a medieval peasant now, so naturally becoming one in the future holds little appeal for me. I don't consider the position of second lifers in Heaven to be enviable. But it's definitely a major upgrade from what they got in their first life.

Forget medieval peasants, heaven's gates already slammed shut by then. What got into heaven were piss poor dudes from the dark age, iron age and bronze age. Living in a place where you're not suddenly going to get your plague-ridden ass killed by random bandits, dangerous wildlife, barbarian hordes or conscripted into your king's army is going to seem like a paradise.

By ancient world standards, heaven is very attractive. It's just that we modern people has moved way beyond such standards. Personally, my version of heaven is not going to be missing beer, sex or internet.

[Simon_Jester]

Eh. I'd generalize 900 AD or so as being within the "medieval" period. It might be imprecise, of course, but it's not totally insane.

For that matter, are we sure exactly when Heaven stopped taking people? 1000 AD was a speculated number, but there's no obvious, specific reason why that date would be chosen. It's not like anything happened that year to make Yahweh displeased with humanity. If anything, there were an exceptional number of Christians making incredible shows of devotion and loyalty to him as part of the whole millenial craziness.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think there were simply 'enough' humans in heaven by then, and after that he got more choosey. And especially after the black death there would have been a TON of pious christians piling up over there.

[nightwyrm]

*Shrug* I'll let the actual historians debate exactly when the dark ages transition into the middle ages but I've always been comfortable with using the Norman invasion of England at 1066 as the start.