Neutron bombs and EMP

[Purple]

I have been reading up a lot recently on Neutron Bombs and Electro Magnetic Pulse weapons.
However, my sources are quite limited. Can anyone fill me in on the details of such weapons, particularly on a way to calculate the effectiveness, range and penetration of their effects based on the yield of the nuclear weapon used to generate them and any non nuclear methods of creating them.

Any comments are truly appreciated.

[phongn]

The Effects of Nuclear Weapons by Glasstone is pretty much the best source you'll find on nuclear weapons and is a document in the public domain.

One way to consider the effects is to try and get the energy of the neutrons produced and then estimate how much air said neutrons will penetrate. Such weapons work by neutron activation and thus are effective at taking out enemy armor (unlike "normal" nuclear weapons) and ballistic missiles. Some amount of earth cover will readily shield against them (hence their design as defensive weapons).

EMP can be generated with a flux compression generator (as well as high altitude nuclear event). Defending against EMP is cheap (like, 2-3% extra cost if you design something to be protected, more if you need to retrofit).

Detailed information is unlikely to be in public literature.

[Serafina]

If i recall correctly, EMP is simply not considered an effective military weapon anymore, since nearly all military equipment is shielded against it. At the point where your EMP has burned trough shielded electronics, it's already pretty much a conventional nuclear strike.

[Sea Skimmer]

Vulnerability depends a great deal on the target. Long power lines for example, are very vulnerableto EMP because the unbroken path of the conduct provides a big area for the induced voltage to add up in. The harden against EMP you need to provide as many circuitbreaking devices as you can fit in possible, and extreamly redundant ground paths. You also use direct fairaday cage shielding to reduce the number of access points the EMP has to reach an electrical system.

Nuclear EMP is a serious threat but mainly to civilian power and communication's, which military forces leverage off of fairly heavily. Non nuclear flux compression generators though present a growing hazard for military systems, because they could burst right up against a target like a military command center, not tens of miles above near space. They are also fairly directional in effects. l.

[adam_grif]

In high school I memorized the phrase Explosively Pumped Flux Compression Generator, because I thought it sounded so damn awesome, in a science fictiony sort of way. These are, as best I can tell, the "E-bombs" you hear about. Non-nuclear, just use conventional explosives to generate the EMP.

[Purple]

Thank you for your replies.
I was hoping for some nifty spreadsheet that I could enter the yield into and get the data I need. I know this sounds kind of childish but since its for a RPG with things like Gigaton range nuclear weapons I don't really need that much precision. Just the general data on how it scales and how much is needed to pick a city/underground army base/planet clean. And how to defend against someone doing the same to me.

I will see if I can find that book you told me about but let me ask a few questions if I may.

1. How do EMP and Neutron weapons effect army vehicles and small scale electronics?
- I presume it just burns them out completely since they are too small to place any real protection on them

2. How do they penetrate earth, steal, concrete and other materials I might encounter?

3. What do I need to do to armor my self from them? Led walls? Rubber walls? Dig deep underground?

[phongn]

Thank you for your replies. I was hoping for some nifty spreadsheet that I could enter the yield into and get the data I need. I know this sounds kind of childish but since its for a RPG with things like Gigaton range nuclear weapons I don't really need that much precision. Just the general data on how it scales and how much is needed to pick a city/underground army base/planet clean. And how to defend against someone doing the same to me.

The data available may not properly scale to gigaton-range weaponry.

1. How do EMP and Neutron weapons effect army vehicles and small scale electronics?
- I presume it just burns them out completely since they are too small to place any real protection on them

Small electronics can be protected from EMP. Electronics get destroyed under the induced high voltage load. Look up the mechanics of neutron radiation if you're curious on how they work.

2. How do they penetrate earth, steal, concrete and other materials I might encounter?

Look up tables on penetration data. This varies.

3. What do I need to do to armor my self from them? Led walls? Rubber walls? Dig deep underground?

There are many known defenses against EMP in open literature. Similarly, if you can find out the answers for the previous question you can find out the answer to this one.

[Purple]

Thank you mr phongn for... well nothing. A polite nothing but nothing newer the less.

To be honest I was hoping that someone could give me some data that would not require me to go and look into 20 books or things like that.

So, for future reference to all those posting here. I need a comprehensive and detailed answer that can fit within one post.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Thank you mr phongn for... well nothing. A polite nothing but nothing newer the less.

To be honest I was hoping that someone could give me some data that would not require me to go and look into 20 books or things like that.

So, for future reference to all those posting here. I need a comprehensive and detailed answer that can fit within one post.

These two statements are mutually exclusive. To properly answer your question requires hours of digging through openly-available literature on the subject . . . none of which may scale very well to gigaton-range weaponry anyway. What you're saying is, essentially, that you're hoping someone has done your homework for you. Which, given the specific requirements of your situation, is quite unlikely.

tl;dr

Do your own homework, and don't get testy if people are reluctant to do hours of research to answer a question that only a tiny handful (if that) have asked.

[Purple]

There is no need to become aggressive you know.
Either help me or don't.

Besides, I do not expect anyone to give me the details of the physics in question. If I wanted those I would go read my physics books. All I need is some general values that loosely abstract the numbers (like how does EMP scale with nuclear bomb yield) and I need and some basic information (like what material to use as a shield).

Heck if someone could link me to a 1 page manual called "The idiots guide to EMP" I would be quite happy with that.


And besides, when someone asks a valid question it is considered impolite to attack him for asking it.

[Stuart]

Thank you mr phongn for... well nothing. A polite nothing but nothing newer the less. To be honest I was hoping that someone could give me some data that would not require me to go and look into 20 books or things like that. So, for future reference to all those posting here. I need a comprehensive and detailed answer that can fit within one post.

Purple, old chap, I have spent 35 years of my working life (pretty much all of it) dealing with precisely this issue. I have two offices stuffed to the gills with reference books on the subject and I've had to promise that if I dream about some aspects of it, I have to smother myself with a pillow what I wake up. Looking at twenty reference books will be just a start. This is an incredibly complex subject and if you want to understand it in a "comprehensive and detailed" manner, you have a lot of work to do. And only you can do it.

[Purple]

I think I understand why people mistake my post. Its because I wrote it badly... English is not my first language.

What I was trying to say is that I need as comprehensive and detailed an answer as you can fit within one post.

But it came out wrong back than. :oops:

[Ghost Rider]

I think I understand why people mistake my post. Its because I wrote it badly... English is not my first language.

What I was trying to say is that I need as comprehensive and detailed an answer as you can fit within one post.

But it came out wrong back than.

Then they are telling you, to look up the material and try. NONE of them are going to get anything other then vague references and still miss out. So you have to do your own goddamn work.

[Purple]

I understand what they are saying however I came here to ask a question.

And as someone might assume, when a person comes to ask a question he tends to want a strait and helpful answer.

So please, everyone. Young and old, white, yellow or black, Q, twilek or even wookie.
I ask you the fallowing out of the bottom of my hearth. When you read this thread and want to hit that post button ask your self. "Is my post going to be the answer he needs?" and "Am I just going to tell him something others already have and he already complained about? Something that is not going to be of any help at all?"

And if the answer to either of these is yes, just don't post.

Thank you in advance. Yours truly Purple

[Ghost Rider]

Then I'll repeat what phongn posted you dumbass.

The Effects of Nuclear Weapons by Glasstone is pretty much the best source you'll find on nuclear weapons and is a document in the public domain.

He even states later why there's not likely much beyond unless you can have specific access. So get off your goddamn high horse and understand, the first post was to help you and direct you to further what you were looking for. This is a message board, we aren't going to nanny you.

[Purple]

Firstly, I took his source and even thanked him for it but was hoping for some alternate sources as well. You know, just for extra reference. Any web pages or something.

Secondly I tried being nice... what do I have to do to make this clear?
If you ain't going to help, don't post.

Really, I can't understand you people. You keep coming here and posting that I should go away. If someone in the real world asked you a question would you tell him to go away and find the answer out him self? How would you feel if someone did that to you?

If there is no help, than fine. This thread will die and I see no problem with that. I will take the sources provided and go from them. But I do see a problem with you and others acting high and mighty about it posting here to argue with me.

The first 4 answers here were helpful but the rest is just pointless.
Really people, either help or don't but don't come here just to get your post count up.

[phongn]

Purple, we understand exactly what you are asking for. Your incomplete mastery of the English language is no barrier. We are objecting to the fact that you haven't done your homework and then asked people to summarize something tremendously complex. I've tried to point out a path for you to learn on your own and Sea Skimmer kindly posted some brief details for you. When people ask you to show that you are putting your own effort into researching the issue, responding "thank you for nothing, give me information" is impolite.

If someone comes up to you and asks "please write me a one page summary on a highly complicated subject because I don't want to trawl though many sources" and he's not my boss, I would be highly offended. And, indeed, I would tell him to go look it up.

Here are a couple brief links to get you started - but these could've been found via a cursory Google search. Atomic Rockets: Radiation and Nuclear Weapon EMP Effects. As with any source, you'll have to evaluate their accuracy.

Finally, if you have a problem with the behavior of persons in this thread you should contact a moderator about it, particularly if said content violates the rules. You (nor I, for that matter) have no authority to dictate what to do in this thread.

[Purple]

When people ask you to show that you are putting your own effort into researching the issue, responding "thank you for nothing, give me information" is impolite.

Well I have been reading the book he pointed me to as well as some other physics books I could find (see the opening post as well). Just newer thought I had to give a status report.

The thing is that there is just too much to read and that I need a rather stark segregation like those web pages you linked me to. My education being limited to mostly high school physics and mechanics just leaves me lacking in terms of capacity to understand some times.

If someone comes up to you and asks "please write me a one page summary on a highly complicated subject because I don't want to trawl though many sources" and he's not my boss, I would be highly offended. And, indeed, I would tell him to go look it up.

Guess we come from different cultures. If someone on the street was asking for something I would newer just go tell him to do it him self.

Here are a couple brief links to get you started - but these could've been found via a cursory Google search.

Thank you for those. I really suck at goggle. I am quite literally google challenged to the point that I can't find a song on yourtube correctly. (I am skilled enough to program something like it into existence but not to use it...)

Finally, if you have a problem with the behavior of persons in this thread you should contact a moderator about it, particularly if said content violates the rules. You (nor I, for that matter) have no authority to dictate what to do in this thread.

Well, to be honest I newer dictated anything. I just asked politely with sugar on top. And than after that I got a meltdown.

Again thank you for the links, particularly the 2nd one.

[Nephtys]

Guess we come from different cultures. If someone on the street was asking for something I would newer just go tell him to do it him self.

You were helped by being pointed in the right direction and told that the material is complex enough to not be distilled in general to a short answer. Nobody's going to go dig through multiple reference books to help you, but they will provide a direction. And I don't want to be mean, but if you can't get something useful out of the reference, not much we can do. For a complex subject, you can't just give a short answer of 'Oh yeah, it does this' with any accuracy. Read back up to suggestions for studying neutron radiation, compton scattering, the difference between HEMP events and such. Oh, and that we probably don't have any numbers for gigaton range weapons, since those are far beyond anything tested.

Chances are though, if you only have a high school knowledge of physics and math, you're not going to get a lot of it I'm afraid.

[Tritonic]

Firstly, I took his source and even thanked him for it but was hoping for some alternate sources as well. You know, just for extra reference. Any web pages or something.

Well, here is one example:

http://www.ausairpower.net/ASPC-E-Bomb-Mirror.html

In that example a single 900 kg EMP bomb's explosively pumped flux compression generator could take out many modern electronics over an area up to a half-kilometer in diameter, much greater than it would do so with a conventional warhead, although, of course, hardened electronics would change the situation.

If you're looking for similar web pages, you could browse through the links at the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
Also:

The Nuclear Weapons FAQ

Only a small fraction of 1% of even an optimally high altitude nuclear explosion's energy becomes (via atmospheric interaction) energy in the EMP. Yet, for instance, an one-megaton device at the right altitude could fry many non-hardened civilian modern semiconductor electronics over a radius of easily hundreds of kilometers.

I once saw an interesting article on what would be involved in frying missiles with a pulsed microwave beam weapon on a ship, but I forget the original source.

its for a RPG

It is strongly influenced by the sci-fi setting then, both on their technology used and on the societal context relating to how much the designers of civilian infrastructure would care (if they did care) about EMP resistance. Does the world have a long history of war or terrorism with EMP weapons, or has it been at peace for generations? My wild guess would be that electronic weapons (lasers, railguns, and gauss guns) might improve and become common, leading to spillover, using variants of the power sources developed for them also for pulsed microwave weapons. But such in turn might make hardened electronics more common at least in critical areas.

Here's a present device, albeit bulky with today's technology and power sources:

Stopping a speeding car without killing its driver and passengers with traditional means--bullets--can prove tricky, even if skilled snipers can put a disabling shot in a car's engine block. But a Canadian company could soon demo an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) cannon capable of effectively scrambling a car's chips and other electronics, according to Flight International. The U.S. Marines have lined up as possible, if skeptical, customers.

Eureka Aerospace's system consists of a suitcase-sized antenna that weighs roughly 50-55lbs, and can supposedly stop cars in their tracks up to 656 feet (200 m) away. That disabling power only works for more modern cars that rely upon microprocessors and various electronics for their engine, as opposed to pre-1970s cars.

some basic information (like what material to use as a shield)

A Faraday cage of conductive metal can stop EMP or a microwave pulse, although trickier than it sounds to make perfect (especially when equipment has to be connected to the outside world). That's not the only method of hardening, though, since the issue is a matter of the vulnerability of a particular design to a briefly high voltage surge.

Read here for some info and many further links:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/emp_a ... _cages.htm

Or, if you're really interested and patient:
http://cryptome.org/emp.htm

P.S. If you're wondering about the gigaton range nuclear weapons you mentioned, you could assume that detonated at the right altitude one would fry many electronics, if similar to 21st century civilian semiconductor electronics, out to thousands of kilometers radius. But gigaton-range nukes used on a planet could each scorch to ashes the area of a small country anyway; see the nuclear weapons FAQ link for calculating the radius of lethal burns from thermal radiation, the fireball diameters for a lower altitude detonation, etc.

[JBG]

I understand what they are saying however I came here to ask a question.

And as someone might assume, when a person comes to ask a question he tends to want a strait and helpful answer.

So please, everyone. Young and old, white, yellow or black, Q, twilek or even wookie.
I ask you the fallowing out of the bottom of my hearth. When you read this thread and want to hit that post button ask your self. "Is my post going to be the answer he needs?" and "Am I just going to tell him something others already have and he already complained about? Something that is not going to be of any help at all?"

And if the answer to either of these is yes, just don't post.

Thank you in advance. Yours truly Purple

You are asking for a back of the envelope answer to a very complex issue, with considerations of classification thrown in.

It is a better question for Stuart's forum, HPCA, but you'll get more sources there, not easy answers. You just have to read the sources. Simpliciter.

[Thanas]

Guys, those of you who are not involved in the debate please refrain from adding anything to it. If Purple does not get it after the posts already written here, then there is no reason to add nothing but pointless me-too posts. We have a rule against that, you know.

[Sarevok]

I have read about t non nuclear EMP generating devices using Flux Compression Generators. They seem to be touted as a great threat since they can supposedly be built by terrorist states or rogue states due to their simplicity. However after extensive googling I found no indication of any known bomb or missile using a EMP warhead. If EMP is so effective and simple that small groups or less advanced countries could try to create its devastating effects why is not EMP weapons standard part of military arsenal by now ? EMP seems like one of those cool ideas that never sees any practical use.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe it's more popular science "science" that doesn't exist yet is touted around in the media? Like the supposed suitcase bombs that are, in truth, giant fuck-off heavy backpacks? I mean, I distinctly recall CNN journos wrapping their cameras in tinfoil because they thought the US military was going to use EMP weapons on Baghdad.

[Tritonic]

EMP seems like one of those cool ideas that never sees any practical use.

Certainly the popular press can exaggerate the near-term matter, often having articles seen to be misleading at best upon a little further review.

For instance, explosively-driven flux compression generators have a frequency range which limits their effectiveness, working on some targets with long wires but needing rather specific target choice.

One overview better than most is the following, Electromagnetic Pulse Threats in 2010, an unclassified document:

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cst/bugs_ch12.pdf

While EMP is usually associated with nuclear weapons, it can also be generated though non-nuclear means. High power microwave (HPM) weapons encompass a class of directed-energy devices that emit electromagnetic energy at high frequencies. By changing the power, frequency, and distance to the target, HPM weapons can produce effects that range from denying the use of electrical equipment to disrupting, damaging, or destroying it. HPM weapons are in their infancy and demand a strong technology base for acquisition. The biggest challenges involve building systems small enough to be tactically useful while generating sufficient power levels to affect targets from sufficient standoff range and developing ultra-wideband antennas for certain systems. <snip>

The United States is a world leader in the development of HPM weapons and is still a few years away from fielding a system capable of inflicting electronic casualties. <snip>

While FCGs (flux compression generators) are relatively simple and technically viable, their inherent low frequency limits their effectiveness against many targets. The vircator, in contrast, can produce a more lethal high frequency pulse while maintaining the low physical profile required for packaging in a projectile or bomb. The physics behind a vircator are significantly more complex than the FCG. <snip>

One source even provides the design of a FCG that it claims can be built for under $400. While it is true that the component parts are cheap, assembling a working device is not trivial. Challenges include generating high power levels to charge the coil, timing excitement of the coil with detonation, and shaping the charge to detonate in a precise geometric manner. Still, an FCG is among the most likely EMP weapons to be used against the U.S. in the near term.

Vircators, on the other hand, require a rather significant technology base for development. <snip>

Other declassified presentations from within the U.S. military, e.g. this (plus, from another source, this overview), illustrate how high power microwave (HPM) weapon development has been limited due to presently relatively low capabilities, but, as the power and technology for directed energy weapons in general improves, they can become more effective and practical over the next 1-2 decades and beyond.

In Purple's context of his science fiction role playing game setting, such being more effective than now and even commonplace is plausible.