Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Darth Hoth »

Samuel wrote:
*Bonuses can be issued to employees for being fluent in a foreign language, arriving on time at work, or using a computer.
Is there something I am missing? I can imagine being a few minutes late but I have a feeling that is not what they are talking about.
That is as clear as it gets in the paper; no further information is given. Although given what other things I have heard here and elsewhere about work ethics in Greece, I would be similarly inclined.
*Military expenditure is high due to the often strained relations with Turkey. Greece’s military budget in 2009 amounted to 14 billion Euro, some 6 per cent of GDP.
Is Turkey that much of a threat to Greece? I know they don't like each other, but do they really need to defend themselves against Turkey?
In terms of actual military threat, I would doubt it, given that they are both NATO members. In terms of politics things might be different; I would not presume to call myself an expert on the matter.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Narkis »

Prannon wrote:I get the feeling from the article and from some of the rhetoric in this thread that Greece's economic meltdown may lead to a social meltdown. With public sector workers and even members of the army protesting/striking against having their bonuses and various benefits cut, I have to wonder if the government will even be able to continue doing business.

Are things to that point? Are the people so ingrained in the way business was done that they will refuse to change until society collapses around them?
Well, most of them would prefer that someone else foots the bill. Can't blame them, really. :D
[R_H] wrote:It sounds like they're bloody fucking insane to me.


Scrapping bonus payments for public sector workers
Capping annual holiday bonuses and axing them for higher earners
Banning increases in public sector salaries and pensions for at least three years
Increasing VAT from 21% to 23%
Raising taxes on fuel, alcohol and tobacco by 10%
Taxing illegal construction.

What makes those measures so unreasonable to the union(s)?
In all fairness, some of them are quite extreme combined with all the other measures of the previous months. Fuel price, for example, has risen by almost 50 cents per litre in the past months. Others are quite ridiculous. Taxing illegal construction, lol.
J wrote:
Jason L. Miles wrote:How the fuck do you justify bonuses for Public Sector employees? Do they get more money if they process more drivers license applications than the average or something?
It's known as the 13th & 14th month bonus and evolved from the traditional christmas & summer vacation pay. In the old days, factory owners would hand their workers a small bonus cheque for buying christmas gifts and another one during the summer which they could save up over the course of a few years and use to take vacation. These bonuses eventually got written into a whole bunch of employee contracts so everyone gets bonus pay. Maybe not everyone, but a whole lot of people anyway.
Those are just the most normal of the bonuses. The rest are justified a little differently: "Here, have some free money. Hey, isn't our party better than the other one? Be sure to tell your relatives to vote for us!"
Darth Hoth wrote:Facts on Greece's fucked-up economy as reported by my morning daily; I do not presume to be able to validate how accurate they are, but given the discussion I thought that they could be useful. Of greater interest than the general pointers are the specific examples, which (if accurate) illustrate just how entrenched in the system the general sense of entitlement apparently is.
I can vouch for its accuracy. Everything in that list is common knowledge here. We just thought we were better in hiding all this shit from those silly Franks.
Samuel wrote:Your English is fine.
*Bonuses can be issued to employees for being fluent in a foreign language, arriving on time at work, or using a computer.
Is there something I am missing? I can imagine being a few minutes late but I have a feeling that is not what they are talking about.
No, it's not. It's very common for public employees to be hours late, leaving hours earlier than normal and generally not giving a shit. You gotta have God's favour to find more than one or two employees before 9am or after 1pm in any public service. And these aren't the worst bonuses. There used to be a productivity bonus issued to everyone, a bonus for "intraservice communication" for those who transferred documents to the building next door, and best of all a bonus for those who don't take any bonuses.
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Samuel wrote:
*Military expenditure is high due to the often strained relations with Turkey. Greece’s military budget in 2009 amounted to 14 billion Euro, some 6 per cent of GDP.
Is Turkey that much of a threat to Greece? I know they don't like each other, but do they really need to defend themselves against Turkey?
Well, considering that one of the biggest reasons for Greece's relative lack of development was their being ruled, sacked and culled by the Ottomans for centuries, it's quite understandable. When I was there, the bitterness about what the old empire did was quite mainstream.
Our lack of development is our own damn fault. The Turks just make a very handy scapegoat. But there is still a possibility of armed conflict. The Turks have issues with our territorial waters and air space in the Aegean, claimed a bunch of tiny uninhabited rocks, and are raising a stink over the "Turkish" minority of Thrace. Violations of air space by armed fighters is an everyday phenomenon, on both sides. And they're also currently occupying half of Cyprus, which has significantly soured our relations. And this occupation has shown that we can't rely on our NATO allies in case of a conflict.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Broomstick »

Jason L. Miles wrote:
[R_H] wrote:Scrapping bonus payments for public sector workers
Capping annual holiday bonuses and axing them for higher earners
OK, I'm going to say this from the perspective of someone in the US.

How the fuck do you justify bonuses for Public Sector employees? Do they get more money if they process more drivers license applications than the average or something?
I once worked at a job where I cut shipping costs by 40% in one year and got a couple grand bonus for my work. I could stomach a public sector worker upping efficiency in a similar manner getting a bonus... but I suspect that's not what's going on here.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

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I could honestly see a small bonus for arriving on time - amounting to, say, 1/10th to 1/5th of one hour's wages - for prompt arrival. That'd amount to a buck or two per guy per day who's on time - not really a huge impact, but an incentive for employees to try and grab.

On the other hand, it being commonplace for employees to arrive late and leave early... How the hell does that work? Are they on salary and don't give a shit? Do they just not care about their hourly wages? Are they rampantly falsifying their wage sheets or whatever mechanism hours worked is accounted for on?

I mean, it's one thing to slack off a little when work is slowing to nonexistance, there's nothing constructive for you to do and you think you can construct a better rubber-band catapult than your friend's rubber-band bow, but that's just beyond the pale. How are they getting paid? Why are they getting paid if they're not working any hours?
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Narkis »

Broomstick wrote:I once worked at a job where I cut shipping costs by 40% in one year and got a couple grand bonus for my work. I could stomach a public sector worker upping efficiency in a similar manner getting a bonus... but I suspect that's not what's going on here.
That's not how it works. Everyone in some public services was getting a productivity bonus, other than those on leave or paused from their duties. This resulted in those who worked in the other public services demanding a productivity bonus as well.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:I could honestly see a small bonus for arriving on time - amounting to, say, 1/10th to 1/5th of one hour's wages - for prompt arrival. That'd amount to a buck or two per guy per day who's on time - not really a huge impact, but an incentive for employees to try and grab.

On the other hand, it being commonplace for employees to arrive late and leave early... How the hell does that work? Are they on salary and don't give a shit? Do they just not care about their hourly wages? Are they rampantly falsifying their wage sheets or whatever mechanism hours worked is accounted for on?

I mean, it's one thing to slack off a little when work is slowing to nonexistance, there's nothing constructive for you to do and you think you can construct a better rubber-band catapult than your friend's rubber-band bow, but that's just beyond the pale. How are they getting paid? Why are they getting paid if they're not working any hours?
Some are on salary and don't give a shit. The rest work on shifts: One unlucky worker goes on time and punches everyone's cards. Another leaves on time and punches out everyone's cards. There was a reportage some time ago showing employees punching 20-30 cards each before going to sleep in their office.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by aerius »

Damn, and I thought the work ethic at my government workplace was bad, Greece just takes it to a new level.
They're going to riot so hard when their ridiculous benefits & bonuses start getting cut, I wouldn't be surprised if people get killed.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Darth Wong »

No matter how generous your compensation, people will always feel that they are somehow not getting what they deserve. They don't measure themselves against the entire population: just the people next to them. That's how public-sector workers come to feel that they are entitled to ridiculous things no one in the private sector expects. Eventually, they start feeling that they work hard so they deserve it, as if people in the private sector don't work as hard (or harder).

The only solution is the threat of firing, but they took care of that with job-security guarantees in their contracts. If I could change one thing about labour law, I would outlaw all job-security guarantees in public-sector CBAs, thus nullifying them (after all, contracts are subordinate to law).
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

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Broomstick wrote: I once worked at a job where I cut shipping costs by 40% in one year and got a couple grand bonus for my work. I could stomach a public sector worker upping efficiency in a similar manner getting a bonus... but I suspect that's not what's going on here.
I wouldn't have a problem with that, I guess I'm just a little confused by this 13th/14th month thing.

I am a public sector employee, and the only bonuses I can even conceive of would have to do with contractors on specific projects. There's just not really a way to measure the performance of an individual where I work, and group bonuses tend to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

EDIT: I mean an objective measure related to organizational goals. Designing a bonus scheme for each job description would be an exercise in frustration.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Something I found relevant to the issue at hand, not just in Greece, but globally (yay globalisation).
Chart of the Century wrote:
In the ongoing effort to help people understand what exponential or compound growth (and depletion) mean, I have prepared the following chart.
The chart depicts 3-percent growth and depletion. It does not matter what is measured, whether it is energy, debt, land, or population, the effects are the same and they are important to understand.

Time is not your friend and why the Red Queen’s Race cannot be won:

The arrows indicate how long it took to obtain an incremental level (100).

What does this mean? Considering debt growth, the current monetary system requires positive debt growth or the dreaded deflation will occur. As you can see to achieve the first increment of 100 took nearly 80 periods. The second period to achieve the next increment took about 11 periods and the third just over five.

The harsh reality demonstrated here is that it is not a matter of if the physical economy will be able to support such debt growth but only a matter of when it implodes. Remember, the inverse curve represents the necessary decline in savings or the ability to save. At the point that the government is giving away money, why should anyone work? Bailing out neither banks nor sovereign states can save the status quo.

This principle applies in terms of crude oil usage. It is most damaging to the arguments that we just need to find another giant field. It is also why Hubbert was absolutely correct in his assessment. The time to deplete an oil field the size of the one in Saudia Arabia decrements as seen here (if demand remained constant). With no new major finds and most fields mature or declining we are already too far behind the curve to prevent shortages.

I think (hope) with these examples you get the idea: We are on a collision course with reality.

In an email exchange, I noted that giving Greece more bailout money did nothing to change Greece's inability to make the payments due on their current debt, much less additional debt. I also noted the impact of Jevon's paradox on oil consumption; the paradox is that "technological progress that increases the efficiency with which a resource is used, tends to increase (rather than decrease) the rate of consumption of that resource." Harun responded thusly:

Your thought about Greece is an excellent point and was one of the reasons I produced the chart. Greece's physical economy cannot support its financial economy. This is the end game in the "debt as money-post industrial" economy for all OECD countries. California is another good example of the effects of compression. If we were to look at the growth rate (inflation) as necessary to maintain a constant standard then the problem for the physical economy is apparent. In reality it is not a "problem", it is an impossibility.

If we were to look at the first 80 periods as years then growth was considered strong and the reliance on inflation not really a concern. But then in order to maintain status quo the same amount of credit expansion had to be created in just about 11 years, then 5. Can products and services grow at this rate? Advances in technology, CDO/CDS have prolonged the endgame and made some people very wealthy but the leverage is way beyond what the physical economy can ever hope to service let alone repay.

I think the chart also emphasizes the problem with China. Unless something changes, this chart reveals that energy will be a huge obstacle to growth in China. What is thought of as the China Phenomenon will likely turn into the China Syndrome redux.

For arguments sake, if we were to say that there was one large oil field, it was used up in 80 years. Then we found another and with demand constant, even devoid of increases in technology, we used the second field (which was the same size as the first) in about 11 years. Then we got lucky and found another field of the same exact size as the rest but with demand growing at a constant 3 percent, we used it up in about 5 years. Regardless of how many energy deals China manages to finagle, the situation, short of a miracle, is hopeless.

And, as predicted in the exponential model instability is also occurring with greater frequency.

Finally, along the lines of Jevon's paradox, and, If you give a mouse a cookie... bringing jobs back to the US will not necessarily solve more comprehensive issues as the resource economy would not be able to support the physical economy.
As I've no doubt tired people with, the bailing out of banks, corporations and now whole sovereigns, is not solving dick. It is merely perpetuating a problem that won't go away without a shift in how we deal with finance and economics completely. Capitalism in its current form, at least, is a corpse that needs to be stopped from turning into a zombie that will eat all our... economic... brains. Okay, that was a shit metaphor, but my point stands. Given Greece needs to implement HUGE austerity measures to enable it to pay off the far better loans the EU is ratifying, it all rests on people accepting this and realising that their way of life now is over, regardless. Even without the measures, it was over anyway, you can't run an economy on entitlement and financial instruments. If cutbacks aren't met, then this bailout will simply change nothing, nay, it will make the thing much worse as now the countries that were somewhat healthier are now in the red thanks to losing out with a failed investment plan (and saving Greece is really an investment in the future of the European economy).
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Netko »

The Greeks really are appearing to everyone as a bunch of petulant children.

The Slovenes are especially pissed (this isn't yet getting coverage in the international press). First, from the beginning it was obvious that they would have to do a budget rebalance in order to pay for their share of the Greek bailout:
Businessweek wrote: May 3 (Bloomberg) -- Slovenia will probably have to review its 2010 budget because of the cost of its portion of the European Union’s bailout loan to Greece, according to the government’s chief economic forecaster Bostjan Vasle.

Slovenia’s share in the loan pool for debt-stricken Greece will increase to 384 million euros ($508 million), or 0.48 percent of the 80 billion euros total amount, from an initial estimate of 144 million euros. The decision needs approval from Slovenian lawmakers which are set to vote on the issue next month, according to the Finance Ministry.

“Slovenia may review government spending because the amount we may have to pay to Greece is so much higher,” Bostjan Vasle told reporters in Ljubljana today.
...
And then the Greeks got pissy about cutting extreme benefits in order to qualify for the aid - exactly the kind of benefits that the Slovenes were forced to cut 15 years ago during transition from the Yugoslav socialist system (where Greek style public service benefits and work ethic were common) to market capitalism. So they very much know how painful those cuts are, and yet when they were happening there wasn't mass scale rioting in Slovenia versus the Greeks acting like children. And on top of that, there is the fact that the Greek average pay is 1200€ compared to 800€ for Slovenia.

The Slovenes are also clear that, for them at least, this is a once and never ever again event - anyone else who wants to come begging because of artificially maintaining a far higher standard then theirs can go take a hike.

And with all that, their government will have to take some serious bumps to pass the package because in the end to pay for it they will have to:
Jutarnji list (Morning daily) translated via Google and touchups wrote:The Slovenian Ministry of Finance say that because of Greece they will not sell off the "family silverware" because, after all, during the crisis it is not wise because they can not achieve a high price. Other options are that the Slovenes take money from their own foreign exchange reserves, which amounted to 3.8 billion euros, or borrowing on the international market. Analysts estimate that the money will be taken from the reserves, and some from the new loan. Next is the idea to raise taxes on fuel and to pay the difference of their stake in rescue. Whatever combination is used for paying their part of the Greek bailout, the Slovenians are determined that this should be the first and last time they help somebody in the EU.
You can imagine yourselves what mood the Slovenian public is to pay for Greece (under the mentioned circumstances and their rioting over the conditions) out of their own pocket by increased fuel taxes.

In the end, this doesn't matter all that much financially (the Slovene contribution to the bailout is 0,5%), but at the EU level I don't think Greece is going to be looked at favourably for a very, very long time.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Here's a question: Does Greece actually *make* anything? Apart from tourism and (I've heard) exporting olives, what are their chief sources for revenue? My (admittedly terribly insufficient) knowledge of economics says that if you can make something to give the rest of the world, you at least have the chance to earn something in return.

Given that Greece is in the Euro (so similar prices, no advantage over Spain in cost) and now will have increasing unrest and lawlessness, I can't see tourists wanting to go there as much as (say) Italy or Spain or Portugal. In fact, I know more people who've been to Turkey than Greece on holiday.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by K. A. Pital »

I don't think the cuts in modern Greece can be in any way compared to the horrendous experience of post-Soviet nations or post-Yugoslav ones. It's like comparing flu to AIDS.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

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Stas Bush wrote:I don't think the cuts in modern Greece can be in any way compared to the horrendous experience of post-Soviet nations or post-Yugoslav ones. It's like comparing flu to AIDS.
Which is why the Slovenes are pissed at the petulant children. They took their "medicine" without major protest or disruption when it was their turn, and it was much stronger "medicine".
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by aerius »

According to the local news in Toronto there's protesters trying to storm the Greek parliament buildings, and the riot police is using tear gas grenades to keep them in control. And this is only the beginning, man, this doesn't look good.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Murazor »

Y'know? I am kind of morbidly curious about what will happen in Spain when the shit hits the fan for good over here (if the local stock market keeps going down at the current speed, it shouldn't take long).

Except for the anarchists in Barcelona and the usual suspects in the Basque country, Spanish society as a whole has been behaving in extremely lethargic fashion in comparison with the kind of protests that were commonplace in the eighties and early nineties.

There has been a modest rebirth of far right organizations, but nothing major yet (possibly because our 'mainstream' right wing party is considerably more to the right than your average European rightwing party).
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

aerius wrote:Damn, and I thought the work ethic at my government workplace was bad, Greece just takes it to a new level.
They're going to riot so hard when their ridiculous benefits & bonuses start getting cut, I wouldn't be surprised if people get killed.
You called it.

Three dead as Greek strike grows violent
Athens, Greece (CNN) -- Police sirens and the smell of tear gas filled the streets around Greece's parliament building Wednesday after protests against government spending cuts turned violent, then deadly.

Three people died and at least four others were missing after a fire bomb hit a bank in central Athens, the Greek fire brigade told CNN. The victims, two women and a man, were bank employees, they said.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Tiriol »

It's not just Slovenese who are pissed off at the Greeks: Finns are as well, with our newspapers parading around the fact that the current Greek Vice Prime Minister, when Finland was about to join the EU, just acted like a huge jerk (even bigger than Berlusconi, for comparison) and tried to humiliate Finland at every turn and now his government has to ask for our financial aid. The parliamentary debate about the loan actually brought some color to the politics once more (usually red, as in "his face was red with anger"). Just about everyone considers the Greeks to be petulant, as well, thanks to their stupid strike threats and riots and demonstrations.

This doesn't bode well for Greece, if they manage to piss off everyone.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Thanas »

The public opinion of "screw the greeks" is really prevalent in all of Europe these days. What galls most people is that not only do they have to pay for Greece being complete liars, the Greeks also do not seem to want to make the slightest effort.

And of course, what was especially pleasant in Germany to hear - according to the Greeks, Germany has to pay because of ....wait for it..... THE NAZIS.

So I do not really find it in my heart to feel sorry for the poor Greeks who have to give up their 14th salary and retirement age (that is also nearly 10 years earlier than mine).
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Teebs »

Speaking from the British perspective I'm aghast at the Greek behaviour. I had a certain level of admiration for the Irish who seem to have taken austerity measures relatively quietly and will probably suffer less because of it. The Greeks seem to have an absolutely ridiculous sense of entitlement. As Thanas pointed out, bringing up the war in relation to a country which is about to pay for your workers retiring years before its own is quite incredibly unpleasant (stupid too, you can imagine how that would go down with the German media). I can't imagine that their rioting is improving business confidence in the country either.

I think an important factor in the amount of damage countries will suffer from these massive deficits is the effectiveness of their tax collection systems. As far as I can see the Greek one is pretty disfunctional. At least here in the UK if we're growing again our tax receipts will increase drastically which will cut the deficit significantly (I'm not saying we don't need big cuts, just that having a decent civil society at least reduces them). Does anyone know how the Spanish, Portuguese and Italian tax collection systems are? Actually, I can guess for Italy...
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Murazor »

Teebs wrote:Does anyone know how the Spanish, Portuguese and Italian tax collection systems are?
In the Spanish case, though not completely dysfunctional, the whole thing is extensively decentralized with some autonomous regions having a great deal of fiscal autonomy and some taxes being collected directly by the townships. Since the local and regional governments are, as a rule of thumb, very heavily indebted, both things are Very Bad Stuff.

Particularly when you consider that the regional governments also handle some key services (health, education and such) and at this point they are already having trouble keeping the whole thing afloat.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Broomstick »

Thanas wrote:And of course, what was especially pleasant in Germany to hear - according to the Greeks, Germany has to pay because of ....wait for it..... THE NAZIS.
OH, fucking hell, my family really was almost wiped out by the Nazis but I wouldn't lay that at the feet of the current Germany. It's just a fucking excuse by a bunch of spoiled brats Which WE all know.
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Crown
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Crown »

Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:And of course, what was especially pleasant in Germany to hear - according to the Greeks, Germany has to pay because of ....wait for it..... THE NAZIS.
OH, fucking hell, my family really was almost wiped out by the Nazis but I wouldn't lay that at the feet of the current Germany. It's just a fucking excuse by a bunch of spoiled brats Which WE all know.
And, do you think that there aren't a lot of Greeks in Greece that weren't personally affected by Nazi occupation? You know, in a country that was occupied by the Nazis? You know, during the second world war? You know, back in the 40's?

:roll:

Aaaaaanyway, moving on from personal indignation from random person on the internet, and onto the situation on hand; it won't end soon. It will get worse before it gets better and while we could play the 'can't believe how selfish they're being' at the end of the day, you can actually understand the common Greek person's outrage; they didn't defraund their European partners, the government did, and they should be the ones on the rack!

Yes it totally sidesteps the issue of complete and utter balls up working and living conditions, and the truely bizarre sense of entitlement, but very few rational people are gonna be able to spot their own mistakes and culpability when being hit by the 'fuck you' hammer, let a lone a mob of them.

Anyway, continue with the regular whine fest ...
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Admiral Valdemar
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The people elect the government they deserve. The Greeks fucked up, now they're paying for it. I'm not going to lose sleep over this, not when my nation has its own problems of fairly sizeable proportions.
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Broomstick »

Crown wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:And of course, what was especially pleasant in Germany to hear - according to the Greeks, Germany has to pay because of ....wait for it..... THE NAZIS.
OH, fucking hell, my family really was almost wiped out by the Nazis but I wouldn't lay that at the feet of the current Germany. It's just a fucking excuse by a bunch of spoiled brats Which WE all know.
And, do you think that there aren't a lot of Greeks in Greece that weren't personally affected by Nazi occupation? You know, in a country that was occupied by the Nazis? You know, during the second world war? You know, back in the 40's?
The POINT - which obviously sailed by you - is that even someone with personal reasons to hate and despise Nazis can recognize that the Germany of today is NOT run by Nazis, and that the Germany of today is NOT full of Nazis, and that the generations born after WWII was in no way responsible for what their parents and grandparents did. It's the evil bullshit of collective guilt raising it's slimy head again, and it's something that needs to stop.

Or are you supporting the notion that somehow, because of the Nazis, Germany should be made to pay FOREVER for whatever this or that group needs?

I'm sucking sick of collective guilt because it was exactly that which was a major factor in the Nazis declaring large groups of people as not worth of life.

The Greeks want someone to come fix the holes in their economic roof, but they won't do so much as a put a bucket under the leaks. They want someone else to wipe their ass for them. Saying "you have to do this because your grandfather oppressed my grandfather" is fucking bullshit. This isn't some small minority, this isn't a group of doddering elders who actually experienced WWII making these bullshit "Germans are Nazis" claims it is, for the most part, people who themselves never actually knew the Nazis.

Yeah, if it was a group of octogenarians parading through Athens saying "The Germans were mean to us in 1940!" I'd not say a word - those people genuinely did suffer from some extremely nasty people invading their borders. But that's not what's happening here.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

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Tiriol
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Re: Economists! Comments and Opinion on Greek Debt Article

Post by Tiriol »

Crown wrote:
Broomstick wrote:
Thanas wrote:And of course, what was especially pleasant in Germany to hear - according to the Greeks, Germany has to pay because of ....wait for it..... THE NAZIS.
OH, fucking hell, my family really was almost wiped out by the Nazis but I wouldn't lay that at the feet of the current Germany. It's just a fucking excuse by a bunch of spoiled brats Which WE all know.
And, do you think that there aren't a lot of Greeks in Greece that weren't personally affected by Nazi occupation? You know, in a country that was occupied by the Nazis? You know, during the second world war? You know, back in the 40's?

:roll:
And how does that change anything? Why should Germans who are alive today - and Germany that exists today, almost 65 years after the Third Reich was officially dissolved - pay for the damages done when their fathers and grandfathers were a bunch of murderous bastards? Especially when the Greeks and the Greek government have gotten themselves into this mess with no outside influence? They can't blame the Nazis for this.
Aaaaaanyway, moving on from personal indignation from random person on the internet, and onto the situation on hand; it won't end soon. It will get worse before it gets better and while we could play the 'can't believe how selfish they're being' at the end of the day, you can actually understand the common Greek person's outrage; they didn't defraund their European partners, the government did, and they should be the ones on the rack!

Yes it totally sidesteps the issue of complete and utter balls up working and living conditions, and the truely bizarre sense of entitlement, but very few rational people are gonna be able to spot their own mistakes and culpability when being hit by the 'fuck you' hammer, let a lone a mob of them.

Anyway, continue with the regular whine fest ...
Yes, you can understand SOME of the average Greek's outrage - but not all. They must have known their system was FUBAR when their TAXI DRIVERS got angry because they would have to issue receipts, let alone when the public sector worked like that. Nobody seems to have done anything about it and now when the shit hits the fan they expect that the rest of Europe just shrug this off? Okay, let's shrug it off and see how Greece burns away economically and maybe drags the rest of the Euro system with it.

And you have a point that it's pretty hard to act rationally when a whole bunch of people are hammering on you for being a stupid piece of crap, but what did you in fact expect when the Greek government basically used fraud to make themselves appear better off than they really were and now the other countries in the EU have to pay the bill and when your public sector workers have such insane perks that just about nobody in say, Nordic lands, could even dream of them? When the off-the-table market is so pervasive that people actually hold protests so that they don't have to pay income taxes at all? Greeks are humans, yes, and as humans have a need to defend themselves against accusations they feel undeserved - but the rest of the Europeans are humans, as well, and nobody likes to pay for other people's mistakes.
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