The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Lagmonster]

Um...during the early parts of the great celestial war, were the demons not also technically 'angels'? I mean, it is implied that they slowly changed into their demony forms over millions of years, right? So did they originally start fighting with trumpets and stuff too?

As has been said before, at a certain point the Salvation War is reconciling mythic history with science. If I had to pull a science-y explanation out of my ass, I'd say that demons were changed by some sort of virus, and one of the changes was the loss of the trumpeting ability in exchange for the lightning-throwing.

I originally assumed that, for lack of a better explanation, that at some period before he lost his mind, Yahweh was actually a skilled breeder and had spent a significant amount of time managing selective breeding programs. Given what his brother can already do (specifically, incredible line-of-sight telekinesis), mutating DNA wouldn't be leaping that far off of the deep end, especially if he didn't give a shit about the ethics of creating suffering among sentient beings generation after generation.

[Night_stalker]

Wait, Yah-Yah actually had a BRAIN? Gasp!

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wait, Yah-Yah actually had a BRAIN? Gasp!

You don't become the strongest, meanest being in three dimensions just by showing up.

[OmegaChief]

Which makes me wonder at the event which reduced him to his current state.

Unless of course he's only there because someone wants him thier, if Yah-yah and Satan were brothers, they must have/had a family/species out there somewhere.

[Night_stalker]

Well, he sure as he'll hasn't proved it to me. He rewards those who get into heaven with being eternal servants, and when he announces to us how we're all damned for not just blindly obeying him we then kick Satan's ass and want him dead! His response, was to grow enraged and let himself be played.

[Land Phish]

Even great men have had their minds emaciated because of crippling addiction. Yahweh's crack is just more esoteric than what most people would think to get high on.

[Kuroji]

If Yahweh has sufficient power, he could have been triggering whatever pleasure centers of his brain directly. All the bonuses of crack without any of the negatives! Except for the utter lack of desire to do anything but sit there and listen to the pretty music. In fact that's probably a pretty good way to harm his brain and become addicted simply to making himself high. Would explain the outbursts...

[[R_H]]

Don't worry about it. It was a guy called Sparky with a long internet history who tried to christen the M113 the Gavin along with proposing all sorts of unrealistic uses for it. He's also been very critical of the Stryker, or 'armoured truck of death' as I think he's called it in the past.
Calling an M113 a 'Gavin' is usually a bad sign and makes someone a bit suspect.
It's not something that originated here, but it is why Stu sent Sparky to Alaska.

I'm fairly certain he also called it a "wheeled deathtrap". What an insane individual.

[Baughn]

If Yahweh has sufficient power, he could have been triggering whatever pleasure centers of his brain directly. All the bonuses of crack without any of the negatives! Except for the utter lack of desire to do anything but sit there and listen to the pretty music. In fact that's probably a pretty good way to harm his brain and become addicted simply to making himself high. Would explain the outbursts...

Actually, it turns out (in terrestrial creatures, at least) that pleasure and motivation are mediated by different parts of the brain.

So you can stimulate the pleasure center, and not get an impossibly strong addiction. There will be some, but it won't be to the point of doing in the god. Well, unless you keep it up over thousands of years... but you probably won't.

On the other hand, there's a separate /wanting/ center you can stimulate. In this case, it'll make you want to repeat the action.. and you will, oh yes you will.

It just won't give you any pleasure to do so.

Sad, isn't it?

[Saint_007]

Okay, so the humans are going to use Auschwitz, Heaven as propaganda, Belial's committing the tactical blunder of asking his troops to defend the front lines (I mean, against a 21st century army, is there any doubt as to how that would end?), and Stuart, being the sneaky guy he is, has hinted that Jesus might actually turn around and charge the HEA army or force them to withdraw to Earth.

One thing I recall is that Yahweh supposedly has 4 pets; the Leopard Beast, the Scarlet Beast, the Lamb and the Dragon. The former two are dead, but the latter two are nowhere to be seen. Are they with the invading force, or has Yahweh put them as a defensive reserve?

[Pelranius]

One thing I recall is that Yahweh supposedly has 4 pets; the Leopard Beast, the Scarlet Beast, the Lamb and the Dragon. The former two are dead, but the latter two are nowhere to be seen. Are they with the invading force, or has Yahweh put them as a defensive reserve?

I think that DIMON has speculated that the Lamb and Dragon might be nicknames for Jesus and Yah yah, respectively.

As for Ya ya overstimulating himself, could it be possible that someone else re engineered his DNA in the distant past?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Okay, so the humans are going to use Auschwitz, Heaven as propaganda, Belial's committing the tactical blunder of asking his troops to defend the front lines (I mean, against a 21st century army, is there any doubt as to how that would end?)

Hardly a tactical blunder on Belial's part. He wants them all on the walls getting slaughtered by DU, ground up under the treads of tanks, and generally distracting attention away from his personal quarters, where he's busy making good on his escape to Hell by way of Earth.

[xthetenth]

Okay, so the humans are going to use Auschwitz, Heaven as propaganda, Belial's committing the tactical blunder of asking his troops to defend the front lines (I mean, against a 21st century army, is there any doubt as to how that would end?)

Hardly a tactical blunder on Belial's part. He wants them all on the walls getting slaughtered by DU, ground up under the treads of tanks, and generally distracting attention away from his personal quarters, where he's busy making good on his escape to Hell by way of Earth.

Don't forget looking at the tanks and not at him as he runs. That's also pretty important to him, because he needs a head start to gather power before he gets human attention.

[Eevin]

As for Ya ya overstimulating himself, could it be possible that someone else re engineered his DNA in the distant past?

Too complicated.

Think about it. In the end madness is loosing contact with reality. What you think and what IS simply don't match. And that is Yah yah problem. Everyone has been telling him for a long time that he is ultra-powerful and always right. So he doesn't bothers to check his ideas with reality. And there is his madness, he just refuses to see the world. For him the invasion is going to be a surprise because he refuses to acknowledge humans. As Stuart said, surprise is in the mind.

The sad thing is that Yahweh's mistake is just so human. Look at any government based in a cult to the leader and the leaders ended just like that. For example Mao, at the begging, as the general of the Communist forces he was not so bad. He made his mistakes, BIG mistakes, but he knew when he was outnumbered and when to call it quits. Then look at the Mao of the Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution. The man never realized his mistakes. He had gone to the madness place.

[Enforcer Talen]

I've a hunch Micheal will send Jesus out with the old guard. Ie, a house cleaning of any personnel that's loyal to the old regime. They get stomped, the eternal city is is
disarray, and Micheal does his coup, possibly maintaining his puppet.

[Stuart]

Too complicated. Think about it. In the end madness is loosing contact with reality. What you think and what IS simply don't match. And that is Yah yah problem. Everyone has been telling him for a long time that he is ultra-powerful and always right. So he doesn't bothers to check his ideas with reality. And there is his madness, he just refuses to see the world. For him the invasion is going to be a surprise because he refuses to acknowledge humans. As Stuart said, surprise is in the mind. The sad thing is that Yahweh's mistake is just so human. Look at any government based in a cult to the leader and the leaders ended just like that. For example Mao, at the begging, as the general of the Communist forces he was not so bad. He made his mistakes, BIG mistakes, but he knew when he was outnumbered and when to call it quits. Then look at the Mao of the Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution. The man never realized his mistakes. He had gone to the madness place.

Devastatingly and horribly true. We see it over and over again, different government after different government (regardless of affiliation). That's why arranging a peaceful transfer of power between governments is so critical to a country's success. Sure, it can bring problems with it, but that's nothing to what happens if a given government remains in power too long.

I've a hunch Micheal will send Jesus out with the old guard. Ie, a house cleaning of any personnel that's loyal to the old regime. They get stomped, the eternal city is is disarray, and Micheal does his coup, possibly maintaining his puppet.

Spoiler

That's his plan all right.

[JN1]

I'm fairly certain he also called it a "wheeled deathtrap". What an insane individual.

Yup, you're right, that's what he called it. Amusingly he doesn't accept the opinions of the soldiers who have used the Stryker and like it. They're narcissistic f**ktards apparently.

[Enforcer Talen]

Yamantau mountain

"Good morning gentlemen, ladies. I am Sgt Hollembaek, and I will be continuing your intelligence brief on the enemy situation. Sgts Thomason and Doremus have gone over enemy composition and disposition, and I will be covering their next likely move.

"We are wrapping up on the biblical playbook, and thus far, Yahweh has been following it to a letter. As such, we anticipate an attack by Jesus and his army shortly. Depending on which bible you follow, the numbers may be in the two hundred million. For comparison, Hell attacked us with a tenth of that size.

"The enemy's most like course of action is a deployment to Meggido, Armageddon Plain, in the Middle East. It can be seen on this slide. The majority of our troops are deployed to heaven, but portals of acceptable size are at the following locations. Next slide, thank you. This shows the range and estimated time to launch of applicable nuclear devices.

"The enemy's most dangerous course of action would be a dispersing of his troops. Deploying in task groups of, for example, one million, to various cities would be catastrophic. Further dispersing to the corps or even division size would be even worse. Fortunately, we've never seen Heaven's strategic thinking to be that flexible.

"Thank you. If there are no further questions, Dr Medley will be following me with an estimation of particular angel strengths, to include the two Beasts." 

-- chomped this out during lunch break. I like to think it fits --

[[R_H]]

I'm fairly certain he also called it a "wheeled deathtrap". What an insane individual.

Yup, you're right, that's what he called it. Amusingly he doesn't accept the opinions of the soldiers who have used the Stryker and like it. They're narcissistic f**ktards apparently.

If I remember his site correctly, narcissistic was often followed by garrison something or other.

[Tritonic]

If Yahweh has sufficient power, he could have been triggering whatever pleasure centers of his brain directly. All the bonuses of crack without any of the negatives! Except for the utter lack of desire to do anything but sit there and listen to the pretty music. In fact that's probably a pretty good way to harm his brain and become addicted simply to making himself high. Would explain the outbursts...

Actually, it turns out (in terrestrial creatures, at least) that pleasure and motivation are mediated by different parts of the brain.

So you can stimulate the pleasure center, and not get an impossibly strong addiction. There will be some, but it won't be to the point of doing in the god. Well, unless you keep it up over thousands of years... but you probably won't.

On the other hand, there's a separate /wanting/ center you can stimulate. In this case, it'll make you want to repeat the action.. and you will, oh yes you will.

It just won't give you any pleasure to do so.

Sad, isn't it?

I'm interested in what you're suggesting. Do you have a reference for such? I ask in particular because I've heard of rats made wireheads neglecting all other activities.

edit: The rat analogy perhaps shouldn't be carried too far to other "higher" species, given such as this as a random example; still, I'd be curious of the source for what you're suggesting, especially a "wanting" center?

Of course, in the context of the story here, the general idea seems redundant compared to a cult of personality taken to the ultimate extreme, an interesting idea but only optional.

[Edward Yee]

Mike Sparks' hate-on for "the troops" (or at least the Marines and any-Army-that-likes-non-M113s) is hilarious when you see the comic strips from one of his Web sites depicting soldiers as lacking confidence as-is in their existing vehicles or bases/fortifications... and then calling them "narcissistic fucktards" when they testify as disagreeing with his fictional depictions of themselves.

Shades of Karen Traviss?

[Baughn]

Tritonic:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/1lb/are_wireheads_happy/ is the article I was reading about it. It's not quite up to the level of a research article, but it's readable and has references enough to things that are.

[GrayAnderson]

Considering the high level of religious faith throughout Medieval Europe, I think 1000 is too early for the gates of heaven to close, but if you're gonna stick with that date, perhaps Yahweh got a little pissed of at the corruption in the Latin Church (but what about Byzantine Christianity???) sometime prior to the reforms of Gregory VII (and the seemingly endless number of reforming Popes in the middle/high middle ages). Its conceivable that Yahweh jumped the gun after closing heaven off, and was simply too lazy and/or stupid to look at what happened after Gregory VII.

1,000 isn't a canon date, it's an in-story guess by the characters as to what the cut-off date might have been. I'd put it somewhat later, probably around the rennaissance or the reformation.

Assuming that Don't Wake Me While I'm Tired is canon, Michael's comments about the Inquisition also hint at a later date. They also do suggest that there was at least some chance of the gates reopening after the closure. If this is the case, I'd put the closure sometime in the Renaissance, particularly on the back end of it.

I'm also open to the gates being opened and closed once or twice. Close them around 1000-1100 (Pornocracy, etc.), reopen them in the 1200s (sack of Baghdad, Medieval Inquisition), and then close them again in the 1400s (Renaissance). The wave of fervor that was the Reformation and the later inquisitions emerges in response to this (the 'salvation by faith alone' bit comes to mind as being something that would be appreciated, while Calvinism simply doesn't...and neither does individual interpretation of the Bible), but falls short as the wave disperses in a lot of disparate directions and nobody ends up in control. Alternatively, the earlier episodes might not have been caused by an outright closure, but instead by a severe cutting back.

[Emerson33260]

Hey, you stupid piece of smugness....

I was thinking the same thing about you. There are a number of traitors in history books, and, of course, in fiction such as the story we are reading, who deserved the worst that could have happened to them, but usually didn't get it. But have you ever personally known a traitor? I have known several.

My father's friend, Mr. Kertész, who left his job as Hungarian Ambassador to Rome when some authorities back home appointed him to a cabinet post in 1957. He was convicted of treason in absentia. When he died in 1988, elderly people sang the Hungarian national anthem at the end of his funeral mass, just like in the movies.

For a year in college my room mate was an Iranian, Hamid Motamed. He was shot in the early eighties along with his father for 'treason and apostasy'. Later the authorities sent his mother a nice written apology because Hamid was not legally an apostate, having been raised as a Baha'i and never professed Islam. They were supposed to give him an opportunity to convert. I do not know whether they still would have shot him for treason alone, or if 'treason-and-apostasy' is a single charge. We got to hear about this because my father speaks and writes Farsi, so Hamid's younger brother contacted us for help getting his mother and sisters out of Iran.

The assitant manager at the hotel where I work was an Ethiopian, who had been drafted into the army and was smuggled out of the country by his parents. He was fifteen at the time. The sons of all the families of the old establishment were being drafted and sent to fight in Eritrea by the Mengistu government, and when he failed to appear for induction, that government was able to declare him a traitor without any legal proceeding.

At ninteen, I was called a 'traitor' and a 'nigger-lover' myself, for suggesting that a congressional district that was over fifty per cent 'negro' (a long time ago when that word was politically correct) might legitimately be represented by a person of African descent. The accusation seems to closely resemble 'traitor and apostate'.

So, I have liked and respected every traitor I have ever met. Those who consider it an important objective to root out treason in their countries, who live by the motto "My Honor is Loyalty", make only a negative impression on me.

[Bayonet]

So, I have liked and respected every traitor I have ever met. Those who consider it an important objective to root out treason in their countries, who live by the motto "My Honor is Loyalty", make only a negative impression on me.

Under the US Constitution, "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in
levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court." <US Constitution Article III Section 3 > This was included specifically to exclude cases like you cite.

Do you believe a person should be free to sell out their homeland, betraying it to an enemy in time of war?