Your name and job call back rates

[ArmorPierce]

I'm sure that most of the board knows by now of the studies that have been done where resumes were sent out out with equal qualifications to job postings and the result. That is, 'American' 'white' names have a higher call back rate than 'ethnic' names do. These studies have been used to demonstrate the obvious and glaring racism that causes this to happen.

I've looked through several of these postings on the internet trying to find actual hard numbers for the names but I have only been able to find one. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... ntent;col1 . I looked at these numbers and compared the average of black males and black females. Female names had a higher call rate, not by much. 6.3% vs 6.7%. I then looked at the call back rates for white men compared to white women. at about 9.2% vs 10.4%, white female names seemed to have a good lead on white male names. The lowest white female name call back rate was 8.3% vs 6.6% for white male, but white males had the highest call back rate, Brad, at 15.9% vs the top white female name, Kristen.

So, what do you guys make out of that data? I think that at the very least, it means that black's, male or female, have a harder time compared to white females.

[Stark]

I know that my partner is saddled with racism based on her last name; almost every interview she has ever been to has had some white person tell her her English is 'excellent' or 'better than expected' etc. By the same token, in the Taiwanese community she gets callbacks about roles she doesn't really fit, simply due to ethnicity.

[mr friendly guy]

There was an Australian study which found the similar results, that is those with "ethnic" sounding names had less call back rates. That being said I work in the health field so if one applies for a junior position you just need the degree. If applying for a more senior position, I have a feeling its contacts and how well you advertise yourself rather than ethnicity. That being said I am fortunate I am in a government run area so this crap can't fly (or at least not blatantly).

[ArmorPierce]

Well one thing that popped into my head that would be a possible explanation is that they used different resumes with different set of skills, experience, etc for the female resumes vs the male resumes. I was able to find the source of the study. I did not read it all (40 pages) but from the looks of it, the names were, male or female, randomly assigned.

[Skgoa]

So, what do you guys make out of that data? I think that at the very least, it means that black's, male or female, have a harder time compared to white females.

I can't even count the times I had to keep myself from bashing someones head because they keep asking were my parents, grandparents etc. are from when I keep answering "Hamburg, Germany". And it seems that every time I tell a girl my name she gives me a look as if I admited to being a pedophile and asks "are you serbian/russian/etc.?"

So yeah, those are only anecdotes, but they show that it IS happening and its not limited to the US.

[General Zod]

So, what do you guys make out of that data? I think that at the very least, it means that black's, male or female, have a harder time compared to white females.

I can't even count the times I had to keep myself from bashing someones head because they keep asking were my parents, grandparents etc. are from when I keep answering "Hamburg, Germany". And it seems that every time I tell a girl my name she gives me a look as if I admited to being a pedophile and asks "are you serbian/russian/etc.?"

So yeah, those are only anecdotes, but they show that it IS happening and its not limited to the US.

I half expect at least part of it has to do with how common a name is. Someone will have an easier time remembering Jane than Shaniqua, etc. simply because they hear one more than another. I figure if I ever have to go job hunting again I'm going to send out half my resumes using my first name and half my resumes using my middle name (which is actually more common) and see which ones I get more responses from.

[Skgoa]

Actually I have found the opposite to be true in most cases. An uncommon name stands out, while people with common names are a dime a dozen. So people WILL remember me and thats mostly a good thing in a city and when you are studying at a big university. The problem is more that I seem to have to work just that little bit harder to overcome the initial impression of "dirty subhuman foreigner" that seemingly all germans connotate with non-aryan names.

[[R_H]]

I'm sure that most of the board knows by now of the studies that have been done where resumes were sent out out with equal qualifications to job postings and the result. That is, 'American' 'white' names have a higher call back rate than 'ethnic' names do. These studies have been used to demonstrate the obvious and glaring racism that causes this to happen.

Are the "white" names just "English" ones? Or ones from Continental Europe as well?

I have a very old-fashioned Swiss first name, which very few German-speakers, let alone English-speakers can properly pronounce. This isn't a problem over here, but when I'm over in Canada, I use an Anglised spelling (so that people hopefully don't completely massacre it) or even just the first 3 letters of the Anglicised spelling.

[Spoonist]

This is obviously true. On top of pure racism its also a valid concern based on prejudice that they don't handle the local language. So of course some people will select names that sounds like the ones found in the local regions. I'd think this is true regardless of where in the world you are.

Is it fair? Hell no. Would it be nice if it wasn't so? Hell yea.
But what happened with the good old tradition of changing your name to fit into whatever culture you move to? I've had several friends who have done this to good effect. I had one who changed it twice because first time he changed it to a common local name which his persian skin tone does not match, so then he got lots of adoption questions, so then he changed it again to a germanic sounding name which matched his skin tone better and no more strange questions. I also have a friend with dual passports with different spellings to get it "right".


Sort of like almost all youngish chinese people selecting an extra "english" name that they use when talking to foreigners. Because everyone knows that their real names will be hard to pronounce/remember.

I remember reading that a name change used to be forced on people when they moved to the US in the 18hundreds, if your name was deemed difficult they anglified it. So lots of people in the US has an anglified version of a previously ethnic name.

[Ypoknons]

Sort of like almost all youngish chinese people selecting an extra "english" name that they use when talking to foreigners. Because everyone knows that their real names will be hard to pronounce/remember.

I remember reading that a name change used to be forced on people when they moved to the US in the 18hundreds, if your name was deemed difficult they anglified it. So lots of people in the US has an anglified version of a previously ethnic name.

One of the strongest indicators that a Chinese person has Hong Kong roots is that they have an English first name as part of their official name. At least, for immigrants in the West, the subsequent generations usually only use the English first name (Hong Kongers tend to have both on official documents). To some degree it is very much a colonial result, but I can't find any reason to angry about it, since I've had it since birth. I wonder how those who have had to 'take up' an English name feel about it though.

My name is utterly unpronounceable for English speakers - no vowels, you see. But I think the situation gets better with professional postings, there's more criteria to narrow the field.

As for any ethnic language mixups, I know it's unfair to expect someone to speak a certain language based on ethnic background, but look at it this way - you've probably picked up at least basic spoken from the family, it's just a matter of going all the way. So I mean if you're a first gen Chinese immigrant, no one should 'expect' of you Chinese, but it's sure easier to learn Chinese than someone with no background in the language at all.

[Losonti Tokash]

Man, forget "ethnic" surnames. My last name is French and no one can fucking pronounce it without me coaching them through it. I can only imagine the hell conversations with my bank would be if my family was Polish or something.

[Spoonist]

One of the strongest indicators that a Chinese person has Hong Kong roots is that they have an English first name as part of their official name.

All of my colleagues from Shanghai have an official english name which is in their passports. One of them told me (anecdote so it might not be true) that if their parents had not selected one for them then they had to select one themselves in English class in school which would then go into your papers. This is quite funny sometimes because of the selection by a young pre-teener, like Matrix, Bush or Pocahontas.

[Kristoff]

I can only imagine the hell conversations with my bank would be if my family was Polish or something.

Something like this?

[Ypoknons]

All of my colleagues from Shanghai have an official english name which is in their passports. One of them told me (anecdote so it might not be true) that if their parents had not selected one for them then they had to select one themselves in English class in school which would then go into your papers. This is quite funny sometimes because of the selection by a young pre-teener, like Matrix, Bush or Pocahontas.

First I've heard of it. I still drr a lot of mainland types without an official English name though. Well, a lot of the Hong Kong names were given, more imposed, by missionaries at the Catholic schools... others have parents, some of which are apparently marginally versed in English, name them, which makes for some wierd names - Bobo, Apple, etc...

[Lusankya]

I don't know any people here with an official English name, though lots of people have one that they use when dealing with westerners so that people remember their name. I also have a Chinese name that I use when speaking in Chinese, for pretty much the same reason.

Most English major students choose a name, though there were some pretty weird names there. The worst one was this one student who chose the name "John". That in itself is not such a bad thing, except for the fact that said student was a girl. I assumed she was absent for the entire semester, because there were only four boys in the class, and none of them were called John, so I assumed there was another John who just never showed up. Usually I try to encourage them to use a name that's phonetically similar to their own name, or just keep their own name if it's a single syllable name. A single syllable name is easy enough for English speakers to remember.

[Darth Holbytlan]

That sounds pretty odd, except that I've now lived in the same house/dorm with a Joe, Jim, and Charlie: all female; all native English speakers. Maybe Oregon is just weird.

[Spoonist]

I don't know any people here with an official English name, though lots of people have one that they use when dealing with westerners so that people remember their name.

Ah, well that is interesting. Another exaguration then from my colleagues. Sometimes I think they like to do that to us europeans when we ask too many questions.

[Lusankya]

Well, if they deal with westerners a lot, saying "We all have an English name" isn't much of an exaggeration. But I've never seen it being official in any context other than it being on their business cards.

They really need the English name if they're dealing with foreigners, though. Westerners are absolutely terrible at remembering Chinese names.

[Spoonist]

But I've never seen it being official in any context

Which would be the exaguration my colleagues told me.

Westerners are absolutely terrible at remembering Chinese names.

Completely agreed. Especially if they give it the proper pronounciation and not a westernized one (like Wong or Moon) then its impossible for me to get it into my head.
I have a western colleague though he is a darn genius when it comes to names of people he has contact with. With usually a correct latin spelling and how its pronounced in their local language. He even remembers indian names and they are looooooooong.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well one thing that popped into my head that would be a possible explanation is that they used different resumes with different set of skills, experience, etc for the female resumes vs the male resumes. I was able to find the source of the study. I did not read it all (40 pages) but from the looks of it, the names were, male or female, randomly assigned.

Women tend to have a reputation as better workers for lower-placed jobs, thus the term glass ceiling to refer to discrimination against women in the workfore above a certain level, whereas black men are discriminated against across the board. The idea being women basically take direction better than men and make more obedient employees. It's essentially a sexist idea itself but certainly has some traction, and is implicitly related to the sexist supposition that women can't handle high paid positions.

[General Zod]

Well, if they deal with westerners a lot, saying "We all have an English name" isn't much of an exaggeration. But I've never seen it being official in any context other than it being on their business cards.

They really need the English name if they're dealing with foreigners, though. Westerners are absolutely terrible at remembering Chinese names.

I'm guessing at least part of that is the whole disconnect between how a Chinese name is phonetically spelled vs how it's actually pronounced. I have a hard time wrapping my head around most Chinese names unless I repeatedly hear it pronounced alongside seeing an anglicization of the name at the same time.

[mr friendly guy]

Well, if they deal with westerners a lot, saying "We all have an English name" isn't much of an exaggeration. But I've never seen it being official in any context other than it being on their business cards.

They really need the English name if they're dealing with foreigners, though. Westerners are absolutely terrible at remembering Chinese names.

I'm guessing at least part of that is the whole disconnect between how a Chinese name is phonetically spelled vs how it's actually pronounced. I have a hard time wrapping my head around most Chinese names unless I repeatedly hear it pronounced alongside seeing an anglicization of the name at the same time.

From what I understand the romanisation scheme tries to transliterate chinese sounds using the latin alphabet. However English isn't the only language which uses said alphabet, so a letter in another European language is pronounced differently to English. Using an unrelated example, the Eastern European names Jana or Jelena is pronounced with a Y sound rather than a J sound in English, or the spanish name Jose is pronounced with a H sound (Ho - say) in English.

So when you romanised Chinese words some of the combination of letters they chose to represent various Chinese sounds, isn't how an English speaker would phonetically pronounce it, but it might be close to how <insert other European language> pronounces it.

Anyway just remember Q = Ch sound, Zh = J sound, X = Sh sound to help. However there are still words if I didn't know how they were pronounced in Chinese before hand, I would have misprnounced it after reading the English romanisation.

My Chinese name is easy enough to read in English, unfortunately most people don't say it right, the problems with intonation and all that.

[Ypoknons]

Romanisation with names is a pain. For example, 黃 -> Huang (modern Mandarin), or Wong (Cantonese) or Wang (old school translation). Or 吳 -> Wu (Mandarin), Ng (Cantonese), or even Wong! (not sure about the origin of this one). Confusing, but if you know your way around, a name tells a lot. But of course, it's not surefire - some people use a different translation than their background will make you think.

I've always wondered what the ethnic Manchus when they Romanise their names, their have 4 character surnames! e.g. 愛新覺羅 for the old Imperial clan.

[Lusankya]

Well, technically, they'd do the romanisation based on what it sounded like before it was transliterated into Chinese, since back in the day, they used to speak Qidanyu (契丹语) or something like that, which, IIRC, is related to Mongolian. Nowadays, pretty much all Manchurians just speak Mandarin, but they still have their surnames which are a holdover from the old dialect.

The old Imperial family's surname is romanised Aisin gioro, for the record.

[Ypoknons]

Well, isn't the Manchu language near extinction? A shame, really. Apparently there's also some good work tracing Jin persons through their last names too, even if many had switched Han names their family trees are still traceable.

PS, for my above post, grammar went to hell. Not a morning person