Morality and animals labeled as "pests"

[Flight Recorder]

Alright, on second thought (my previous post was written before I read yours) - I'll retract my statement if you're truly repentant and feel some regret over what you did. That at least tells me you've learned something out of this... and if that makes you a better person, more power to you.

[Shroom Man 777]

So after that I just did what I was told, leave it in the cage under the sun.

Monkey see, monkey do?

Did you not even at least internally question such a method? Just because other people were doing it doesn't really make it justifiable now does it?

I still wish ill thoughts on you, though. I don't buy this "I didn't intend to torture it" BS. I hope you get what's coming to you.

Because rats are vermin and not people? Because we're not taught to regard rats as anything but vermin that should be gotten rid of?

[Flight Recorder]

Because rats are vermin and not people? Because we're not taught to regard rats as anything but vermin that should be gotten rid of?

Who is calling them people? I'm not, it's just that you're showing complete disrespect. You don't have to equate them to humans to at least have a little consideration for the pain you're putting the poor thing through. You even said yourself that it's squealing was sad - so you did indeed feel remorse/guilt for your actions. That is at least a step better than not feeling anything at all, or worse, joy.

BTW, read my previous post.

[Formless]

I still wish ill thoughts on you, though. I don't buy this "I didn't intend to torture it" BS. I hope you get what's coming to you.

Oh, cut the internet tough guy crap. Are you going to continue to ignore the fact that shroom is talking about stuff he did as a kid and promptly stopped doing when he realized it was bad, or do you just like to get your rocks off imagining shroom suffer over torturing a rat?

Edit: I obviously wrote this before seeing your next post. Still, though.

[Flight Recorder]

That's not what I was addressing. In that post Alyrium was clearly accusing him of killing rats for no other reason than because they exist. Sorry, PETA, but that's clearly not the case. Living in the first world tends to make one forget just how NASTY vermin are. Its not THAT long ago that they were a serious vector for disease around here.

Fair enough.

Besides, when I read Shroom's post I got the impression that this was something that he did when he was young and stupid. That's much more forgivable, IMO, than you make it out to be. Really, no method of killing them is going to be pleasant, and he clearly wasn't doing it for cruelty's sake.

I'm not sure about that, but if it's true then I'll retract my statements.

You're right of course, no method really is pleasant but some are more than others.

Oh, cut the internet tough guy crap. Are you going to continue to ignore the fact that shroom is talking about stuff he did as a kid and promptly stopped doing when he realized it was bad, or do you just like to get your rocks off imagining shroom suffer over torturing a rat?

I'm not ignoring it - but I don't know whether it is true or not. If you read the first post on this page, you will notice that I am willing to retract what I had said based on that proviso.

[Starglider]

Because rats are vermin and not people? Because we're not taught to regard rats as anything but vermin that should be gotten rid of?

So, the critical question for any fantasy universe, are wererats people or vermin?

[Formless]

I'm not ignoring it - but I don't know whether it is true or not. If you read the first post on this page, you will notice that I am willing to retract what I had said based on that proviso.

Why would he lie about it?

[Shroom Man 777]

Alright, on second thought (my previous post was written before I read yours) - I'll retract my statement if you're truly repentant and feel some regret over what you did. That at least tells me you've learned something out of this... and if that makes you a better person, more power to you.

I'm not really in grief about killing the rats, but yeah, fire (or hot water) isn't really a pretty way to get rid of anything, even a rat. Not that drowning it or using a rock to smash it to pieces is much better, but at least its quicker. It's not like I like having to kill them (and it's other people who do the killing anyway, most of the time). It's an unpleasant chore. The latest thing I did was throw a rat into a dumpster after my dad shot it, wounded it, and let the dog chew on it.

Of course torturing a rat to watch it suffer is a disturbing act. But killing rats in itself? It's something that's done on a daily, routine, basis, but it's not like I or anyone likes having to kill rats or cats (not really) or snakes that happen to be inside the house or in the back yard. I'd prefer to keep the snake and feed the rats to it.

Who is calling them people? I'm not, it's just that you're showing complete disrespect. You don't have to equate them to humans to at least have a little consideration for the pain you're putting the poor thing through. You even said yourself that it's squealing was sad - so you did indeed feel remorse/guilt for your actions. That is at least a step better than not feeling anything at all, or worse, joy.

BTW, read my previous post.

Yeah, it just never occurred to me back then if there was any difference in how to kill a rat.

[Flight Recorder]

Why would he lie about it?

Because some people who claim such things in public and think it's OK, tend to do backflips when they get flamed about it (in order to avoid more flames). However, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one in light of his recent comments.

But killing rats in itself? It's something that's done on a daily, routine, basis, but it's not like I or anyone likes having to kill rats or cats (not really) or snakes that happen to be inside the house or in the back yard. I'd prefer to keep the snake and feed the rats to it.

Yeah, but the killing itself isn't in question here because most (if not all) of us agree that sometimes it is a necessity. But the torture/unnecessary cruelty bit really isn't.

[Flight Recorder]

If I had to put my personal opinion into a formula I would say that the rights of an animal are directly proportionate to the number of and intensity of the bonds it creates with people.

Are you saying that an animal has no "rights" (and I use this term very loosely) because it doesn't bond well with people and is useless?

Well then, how about homeless people? By extension of your own logic, they should not have any rights. We're animals too after all.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, I used a half-assed method of killing the rats then. I mean, it's not like I get asked "hey shroomy go kill this rat that's stuck in the glue/cage" all the time and know what to do. During that time, like I said, I also did strange things with alcohol and matches in my bathroom (because I thought worms were growing in the stagnant water under the bath tub's crack). I never did it to another rat, anyway, though I did do it to this freakishly huge spider (I used a lubricant/something spray instead of alcohol, to make an improvised flamethrower).

As for the original OP, I feel much sadder for the poor lizards that inadvertently get stuck in glue traps and end up either starving to death or skeletonized by the ants (or starving to death and THEN being skeletonized by ants) than the rats. Over here, the gluetraps end up killing craploads of poor lizards.

[Shroom Man 777]

If I had to put my personal opinion into a formula I would say that the rights of an animal are directly proportionate to the number of and intensity of the bonds it creates with people.

Are you saying that an animal has no "rights" (and I use this term very loosely) because it doesn't bond well with people and is useless?

Well then, how about homeless people? By extension of your own logic, they should not have any rights. We're animals too after all.

We're people, not animals.

[Flight Recorder]

We're people, not animals.

We're both. The human species fall under the taxonomic kingdom Animalia... we are mammals, after all. We are vertebrates, breathe air, females have mammary glands and give birth to live young. And possessing a neocortex, that is unique to all mammals.

[Formless]

We're people, not animals.

Strictly speaking, we're both.

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, uh, shit. Yeah, we are.

(seriously, that was like the dumbest thing I've ever said)

But what I really kinda meant was that, you know, people are a notch or two above animals and all that jazz. If you ask me why, well, this is one of the issues I can't really properly argue on since I'm probably going to be shit at differentiating the aspects of what makes a human human from the aspects of animuls and something. But, for one, we eat animals for food - even dogs. While that's something we don't do to humans - even, sad to say, homeless people.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Don't be an strawmanning idiot, that's not why he trapped it and killed it and you know it. Do you understand what a "pest" even is? Or are you so wrapped up with treating all animals the same that you can't see the perspectives of other people on this issue?

That's not what I was addressing. In that post Alyrium was clearly accusing him of killing rats for no other reason than because they exist. Sorry, PETA, but that's clearly not the case. Living in the first world tends to make one forget just how NASTY vermin are. Its not THAT long ago that they were a serious vector for disease around here.

Learn better reading comprehension. Oh, and taking things in context helps. I have flat out stated that killing the animal is not the issue. It is how it was done. I have offered options such as fast acting toxins, or crushing of its entire body which will kill it instantly. Setting an animal on fire, or boiling an animal with heat sensitive nerves while it is alive is just fucked up and not necessary.

Of course I would question the utility of simple traps when his house is infested as he describes. Something more proactive might work better. Sanitation, catching a few rat snakes and letting them loose in your walls etc.

For fucks sake you miserable sack of shit, in one experiment I will have to kill thousands of tadpoles. Thousands. But I dont torture them. They die pretty quick once swallowed by a garter snake.

I'm not sure about that, but if it's true then I'll retract my statements.

As would I

Well, one of them was in a cage so to hit it with a heavy object I'd have to open the cage first. Drowning seems like the best way, though. I think they did do that a couple of times.

Drowning or hypothermia is not that bad all things considered. With drowning, hypoxia sets in after the initial panic and unconsciousness sets in. Hypothermia is also relatively painless so long as there is no frost bite. Harder to do properly though.

Though, man. It's kinda sucky to have people wish bad things to happen to me just because I killed a rat in an inappropriate manner.

See, I dont want bad things to happen to you. I just want you to learn that such things are not OK.

I'd prefer to keep the snake and feed the rats to it.

Most of them are not dangerous to humans...

But what I really kinda meant was that, you know, people are a notch or two above animals and all that jazz. If you ask me why, well, this is one of the issues I can't really properly argue on since I'm probably going to be shit at differentiating the aspects of what makes a human human from the aspects of animuls and something. But, for one, we eat animals for food - even dogs. While that's something we don't do to humans - even, sad to say, homeless people.

Some people do eat people...

[Formless]

Learn better reading comprehension. Oh, and taking things in context helps.

Oh? And what in your post indicated that you didn't mean exactly what you said?

And hideously hideously cruel. Beating it to death with a large stick would have been preferable to that.

Hmmmm... nope, not that.

Hardly. If you are willing to set an animal on fire for the crime of existing, you no longer ever get to complain about anyone or anything being cruel to another ever again.

The full statement I was quoting... nope, still sounds like you are accusing Shroom of killing rats for no reason.

There are good cheap ways of dealing with that which are not nearly as cruel. Rat poison tends to work pretty damn fast.

Yeah... obviously no. Though it does suggest you have a criteria of what constitutes a pest, I will grant you that.

I have flat out stated that killing the animal is not the issue.

Are you sure I have a reading comprehension issue rather than you expressing yourself poorly? In that post it looked like you were also accusing Shroom of killing rats unnecessarily. Clearly this is not the case. Hence, strawman, whether you meant it or not.

[Flight Recorder]

It's not uncommon to encounter people, who in response to any subject matter that slightly grazes the topic of animal cruelty (be it even just about insects), respond with misanthropic hatred such as: "that is so cruel, you should be shot!" up to proposing the genocide of the entire human species.

Aren't most of these comments just tongue-in-cheek though? Those people are only being overly-emotional, do you really think they mean what they said? Granted, some people will be animal right PETAesque loons... but I just don't see it.

Also what we perceive as exceptionally cruel most often isn't any more painful than the average type of death even as occurring in nature.

Should that really dictate how we treat other lifeforms? I don't see what happens in nature as relevant when it comes to our very own actions - after all, what happens in nature/the wild is something we can't control. Whereas in a controlled situation where a human as the choice, it is most certainly different. Intent, also, is the main difference - a predator maims and kills to survive, not because it intends to make its prey suffer.

Otherwise people can defend all sorts of things just because nature may seem a bit more crueller. The fact for example that wasps lay eggs in live insects doesn't necessarily mean we should emulate that level of cruelty to animals. Now, I know that this is not what you're implying, but I'm just trying to find the relevance of deaths in nature. Same can be said for accidents too... all about intention there.

[ThomasP]

I have a hard enough time killing things that "need" killing, even insects. It wasn't too long ago that my cat caught a mouse in our lounge, and I found it cowering in a corner. I couldn't kill it; I just let it go outside.

The thought of brutalizing any animal, even if it's not done with the intent of cruelty, really bothers me. I just can't be like that. They don't stop suffering just because you label them pests; if it ever comes up, the least I can do is make it quick and as painless as possible.

[Shroom Man 777]

Of course I would question the utility of simple traps when his house is infested as he describes. Something more proactive might work better. Sanitation, catching a few rat snakes and letting them loose in your walls etc.

Our house is cluttered and it is the kind of very important clutter that you must keep with you for years on end because throwing those cluttering things away is tantamount to sacrilege or something. If I could, I'd get a kittens and have it kill the rats. It can play and have kitten funs (=^____^=) before it eateds the rats too.

Drowning or hypothermia is not that bad all things considered. With drowning, hypoxia sets in after the initial panic and unconsciousness sets in. Hypothermia is also relatively painless so long as there is no frost bite. Harder to do properly though.

I am not putting the rat in the freezer. But yes, now that I think of it, drowning is the best way to go about it! Not as messy as smashing their skulls, and it won't leave entrails behind that will make the cage stink and make the other rats avoid it! All I need is a bucket!

See, I dont want bad things to happen to you. I just want you to learn that such things are not OK.

Next time I'll kill the rats better. Or, just tell someone else to do it.

Some people do eat people...

More power to them! =^_______________^=

[Simon_Jester]

I also think that it's a bit excessive for anyone to say that I've somehow lost all my "rights to complain about anything ethically/morally". Well, it's in your books, but I think that's a bit of an overreaction.

Hardly. If you are willing to set an animal on fire for the crime of existing, you no longer ever get to complain about anyone or anything being cruel to another ever again.

I think I'll give him a pass if he's learned not to be that much of a bastard to animals in the future.

Kids are stupid and tend to make crappy decisions. Harmful crappy decisions. Because they aren't experienced and imaginative enough to figure out the right course of action. So kids are idiots, and Kid Shroomy was probably no exception. That doesn't mean Adult Shroomy has lost his right to complain about anything ever.

It's not like he's advocating this as a preferred method of killing rats.

[Tanasinn]

Personally, I don't care about vermin at all. People who sadistically torture said vermin again and again or who repeatedly choose the most painful methods of killing possible are, on the other hand, demonstrating a repulsive degree of sadism totally seperate from how I feel about some filthy rat.

[Kanastrous]

Here's the thing, from my perspective - based upon my fingernail grasp of evolutionary biology (and the nice thing about posting here is that if I have it wrong, someone will correct me, and maybe insult me a bit if I'm lucky) other mammals share enough of our neurological structure that their experiences of pain, hunger, terror and other basic biological responses are similar to ours. Now, I don't mean to suggest that a rat with one leg in a trap is cogitating and worrying about his future without a leg; all he knows is that he's trapped, in pain, and terrorized. Well, since I have experienced pain and terror myself, it's not much of a stretch to empathize with the rat, to the degree that I can apprehend at least something of what he is feeling.

Will that stay my hand, when it's time to kill him? No, it won't. But it does mean that I'll prefer the fastest and hopefully least painful and terrorizing way to kill him, because I have some idea what suffering is, and I believe that he can experience it to a degree that I can recognize, and it impresses me as amoral (or unethical, whichever you prefer) to maximize suffering when I have nothing to lose, by minimizing it instead.

And as for the horrifically cruel things kids do, to animals - I'm probably as guilty of that, as anybody. I shudder to think how many small creatures met awful ends at my hands, by the time I hit ten or twelve and started to realize what a shit I'd been for needlessly doing terrible things to them.

[Iosef Cross]

I would say that the types of animals that should have the right to demand rights the day that they effectively march into the congress in defense of their rights. If they don't have the capacity to perceive their need for rights, they shouldn't have rights. Since people are the only type of animal to do such thing, well...

[Bakustra]

I would say that the types of animals that should have the right to demand rights the day that they effectively march into the congress in defense of their rights. If they don't have the capacity to perceive their need for rights, they shouldn't have rights. Since people are the only type of animal to do such thing, well...

What about the severely mentally handicapped, or young children? Do they not have rights?