SF Military Tropes

[adam_grif]

I can understand anger at the "space is an ocean" trope, but the use of naval ranks and tradition follows naturally from having your spaceships being basically ships in space.

Only if Starwars went from zero to Stardestroyers with nothing in between. Do you think the US Airforce would rebrand itself the US Aerial Navy if they suddenly started deploying flying Aircraft carriers and massive airships with bridges?

[Teleros]

Sorry, misunderstood the request . Hmm... possibly the Triplanetary Patrol & Galactic Patrol from Doc Smith's books, given that both organisations are involved in law enforcement as much as blowing up enemy battle fleets. The Galactic Patrol has various non-naval internal divisions (narcotics, homicide, espionage, etc). As an example I think it's something of a stretch though.

Though frankly the USAF Battlecruiser in SG1 is kinda more of a ship than a really really big aerospace craft...

That's another thing - in most sci-fi space forces you get big starships with a big crew alongside. Similar to navies here, and quite unlike air forces.

There isn't really anything overtly naval about them, except for a few passing similarities. They have as much or more in common with air forces, but they never get called that except in a very few select circumstances.

I'd have to disagree here. Make a list of what airforces can do better than navies, then the other way round, and then think about which ones your space force would not get involved in (it should also be worth pointing out that not all airforces & navies are equal - not everyone has nuclear bombers after all). You'll likely find navies have the advantage over airforces, and that most hypothetical space forces have more in common with navies as well. Given that, if you're going to create a space force of some description, basing it off a navy seems like a fairly sensible thing to do, at least until someone has the experience to rewrite The Book.

Orbit is like being anchored in the same way parking your car is the like driving around the block constantly.

Not really. If you're in a geostationary orbit then you're not moving relative to the spot on the planet, so that's just like a parked car. If you're not in such an orbit then, like a ship at anchor off the coast of an island, you'll move a bit, but not so much that it matters. Aircraft have to come to the equivalent of a geostationary orbit, and loitering in the sky burns up fuel, unlike orbiting a planet (or anchoring off the coast).

[AniThyng]

I can understand anger at the "space is an ocean" trope, but the use of naval ranks and tradition follows naturally from having your spaceships being basically ships in space.

Only if Starwars went from zero to Stardestroyers with nothing in between. Do you think the US Airforce would rebrand itself the US Aerial Navy if they suddenly started deploying flying Aircraft carriers and massive airships with bridges?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Shenandoah_%28ZR-1%29 funny you should mention airship aircraft carriers...

If the technology to deploy giant flying aircraft carriers of the magitech "more like a ship than a spaceship" ala SHIELD's HeliCarrier became available, it's a fair bet the Navy, were it still around, would try to snag some for itself. Aircraft aren't even the exclusive domain of an air force -the US Navy operates one of the largest air forces in the world as it is already.

To Star War's credit, in the Black Fleet Crisis this very issue was brought up because a component planet of the New Republic had a military descended from a tradition that used "army" style ranks and thus was a General. It was noted that it really didn't matter since a General and an Admiral in the Republic Defence Force are of the same paygrade and thus have the same level of responsibility (in a given role).

[PainRack]

Battlefield promotions happen all the time during war. There's nothing strange, unrealistic or stupid about it: Richard D. Winters, to use a well-known example, went from Lieutenant in charge of a platoon to Major commanding a batallion in circa eight months.

Not from grunt to leading field commander.

PS, Coyots. It WOULD be a cool variation, wherein the military guys in space won't use naval terms but police terms instead! It won't be a spaceship! It'll be a space patroller! It won't be Captain Needa, but Space Constable Ackbar! Out of the way, Thrawn! Here's Space Detective MCCLANE! Space Inspector! Screw Grand Admirals, here we'll have Star Commissioner Gordon! Alright! They won't be invading planets, they'll be putting worlds under police custody! Arrest that space station! Resistance is futile, eh? Well you have the right to remain silent... in space! Come on, partner! I'm too old for this shit! Freeze! Aw shit it's the G-Man! Here comes the fuzz!

There is a series of short stories that feature the Galactic Patrol, a paramilitary organisation that guards human space from both police and military threats...

For sheer awesome, it then features their equivalent of special ops/task forces and the first story had one of their "Commando" leading a unit of PIGS. Yes, porcine creatures... Attack boars, motherly pigs and super intelligent freaks. Their cover story, a pig farmer "retiring" from the Patrol onto a "ghost" planet that has been under attack from "supernatural" forces.

[PeZook]

Not from grunt to leading field commander.

"Leading field commander" is a meaningless term. Why do you discard my example of Winters going from lieutenant in charge of a platoon (about 40 men) to major in charge of a batallion (600+ men and their support)?

How about Dick Meadows and his jump straight from MSgt. to Captain after a particularly successful couple of missions?

Sure, those are extraordinary examples - but then again, most stories are about extraordinary people. Furthermore, why is this a trope? How is it at all common in fiction?

[Simon_Jester]

Calling our star Omricron Persei wasn't what I was proposing

I was simply saying it's nice to see people giving our own sun a name at all, and seeing SciFi Earth cultures doing away with a very earth centric title like that. I'm not expecting other cultures to call their own stars by names we give them.

It's more a question of whether the name is impersonal or not. The star you live near is going to have a special position in the universe for you no matter where you live. You may have to be able to give it a catalog-type name (Sol, Aldebaran, Omricon Persei) for the benefit of others, but you're probably going to think of it as the sun in any case.

[Aaron]

"Leading field commander" is a meaningless term. Why do you discard my example of Winters going from lieutenant in charge of a platoon (about 40 men) to major in charge of a batallion (600+ men and their support)?

How about Dick Meadows and his jump straight from MSgt. to Captain after a particularly successful couple of missions?

Sure, those are extraordinary examples - but then again, most stories are about extraordinary people. Furthermore, why is this a trope? How is it at all common in fiction?

I think you'll find that most modern examples of this are brevet promotions, "we need someone right now and you'll do." Most folks I've met that have been rapidly promoted are expected to go back and do the associated training ASAP, unless you've passed a certain threshold (x years) in which case it's assumed that you've learned enough on the job.

People are also assuming it's bad, there are folks in the military (and any job) who are naturals.

[Feil]

I can understand anger at the "space is an ocean" trope, but the use of naval ranks and tradition follows naturally from having your spaceships being basically ships in space.

Only if Starwars went from zero to Stardestroyers with nothing in between. Do you think the US Airforce would rebrand itself the US Aerial Navy if they suddenly started deploying flying Aircraft carriers and massive airships with bridges?

Or the culture whose language became the galactic common tongue had their initial aerospace forces a component branch of the Navy. Is it honestly that difficult to imagine a country where the air force came from the 'Navy Air Corps', in stead of the 'Army Air Corps'? Suppose the first war that saw the use of military aircraft on Earth was the Pacific Front in WWII, in stead of the fields of France in WWI. The Navy gets the idea that air support wins wars, puts in an order for a big pile of airplanes, builds runways on its naval bases to support its ships, and whammo, the next time somebody wants combat air support, they call the Navy to build a landlocked Navy Air Base. The Air Force using Army ranks is an accident of history.

[Coyote]

Also, the USS Macon and Akron, two rigid airships that served as airborne carriers for smaller craft, were run by the Navy, so Naval flight operations with large air vessels is not unheard of. A world where flying tradition came from the Navy instead of the Army is quite reasonable.

[Eviscerator]

Battlefield promotions happen all the time during war. There's nothing strange, unrealistic or stupid about it: Richard D. Winters, to use a well-known example, went from Lieutenant in charge of a platoon to Major commanding a batallion in circa eight months.

Not from grunt to leading field commander.

.

Richard D.Winters did indeed rise to outrank CPT Sobel, as the miniseries and both the novel shows. CPT Sobel, we salute the rank, not the man. In peacetime it takes several years to rise to MAJ rank, even for a well-educated, well-connected officer, but in wartime the ascension can be much quicker. He did indeed rise from leading an assault on 88mm batteries to sitting in the HQ ordering such assaults to happen.

Whether you like it or not, battlefield promotions happen in real or sci-fi, and you can like it or lump it. Viktor Suvorov's book Inside The Soviet Army details such precisely, and rank follows appointment as surely as sun follows the night.

[Sarevok]

Also, the USS Macon and Akron, two rigid airships that served as airborne carriers for smaller craft, were run by the Navy, so Naval flight operations with large air vessels is not unheard of. A world where flying tradition came from the Navy instead of the Army is quite reasonable.

Problem is any navy derived air force would lose all of it's naval heritage and develop air force traditions as soon as airplanes mature. Long duration and large airships that can be run like oceangoing vessels will not survive beyond the early biplane era in any timeline. By the time air power develops enough to be useful you are looking at airplanes only. It is hard to see why a force with short range fighters and bombers would be run like a naval fleet.

[PeZook]

Problem is any navy derived air force would lose all of it's naval heritage and develop air force traditions as soon as airplanes mature. Long duration and large airships that can be run like oceangoing vessels will not survive beyond the early biplane era in any timeline. By the time air power develops enough to be useful you are looking at airplanes only. It is hard to see why a force with short range fighters and bombers would be run like a naval fleet.

It wouldn't be run like a naval fleet, it would just crib their rank names from the Navy, while building a structure proper for its mission.

[AniThyng]

Problem is any navy derived air force would lose all of it's naval heritage and develop air force traditions as soon as airplanes mature. Long duration and large airships that can be run like oceangoing vessels will not survive beyond the early biplane era in any timeline. By the time air power develops enough to be useful you are looking at airplanes only. It is hard to see why a force with short range fighters and bombers would be run like a naval fleet.

It wouldn't be run like a naval fleet, it would just crib their rank names from the Navy, while building a structure proper for its mission.

I wonder if russian naval aviation, the part that flys heavy antishipping bombers from land bases, counts as an air force that uses naval ranks...

[adam_grif]

Problem is any navy derived air force would lose all of it's naval heritage and develop air force traditions as soon as airplanes mature. Long duration and large airships that can be run like oceangoing vessels will not survive beyond the early biplane era in any timeline. By the time air power develops enough to be useful you are looking at airplanes only. It is hard to see why a force with short range fighters and bombers would be run like a naval fleet.

It wouldn't be run like a naval fleet, it would just crib their rank names from the Navy, while building a structure proper for its mission.

And would it still be called a navy even though it wasn't operating any boats? Or maybe it's some weird inverted world where the Air-force runs Aircraft carriers as it's only ships. Regardless, even if you crib navy ranks (and remember, my position on the matter is not that it's impossible for the navy to become the thing your space force is modeled on, but that it's just as likely that you would model it on something else), a navy that does not maketh you. After all, the airforce didn't call itself the "Air Army" or something, despite Army origins.

As you say, it's possible for the Navy to branch out into space (albeit very unlikely in real life). It's also possible that the Navy never became independent of a higher military force, such as the People's Liberation Army Navy. If a military culture wasn't set up like the US where each branch fought against each other, you might know your space force as the "Space Army" or something similar, or more likely, it would just be the "Space Force". Perhaps everybody uses unified ranks across all branches.

Point to keep in mind is that being arbitrary, anything's plausible if you make a decent argument for it. I just wish more people would diversify, you know?

[Drone]

After all, the airforce didn't call itself the "Air Army" or something, despite Army origins.

Interestingly, the French air force's name literally translates to Air Army.

The US Airforce was originally the Army Air Corps. They later changed it when they became their own service.

[Batman]

The Army Air Corps was actually the Brits if memory serves. The US Air Force used to be the Army Air Force.

[adam_grif]

So except for those damn frogs, they all changed to air-force when they got their independence?

[Bakustra]

So except for those damn frogs, they all changed to air-force when they got their independence?

The RAF (and thus its child Commonwealth branches) was formed by merging the Army and Navy aerial units, so it makes sense that they would distance themselves from both.

[AniThyng]

It went US Army Air Corps -> US Army Air Forces -> US Air Force

British was Royal Flying Corps -> Royal Air Force, which some meandering while deciding if the Royal Naval Air Sevice would be under the RFC/RAF or the Admiralty. (It eventually became the "Fleet Air Arm", under the Navy). This is wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but "The titles and insignia of RAF officers were chiefly derived from those used by the Royal Navy, specifically the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) during World War I. For example, the rank of Squadron Leader derived its name from the RNAS rank of Squadron Commander. RAF officers fall into three categories: air officers, senior officers and junior officers."

So there




Some countries have even had debates over wether naval aviation would be under the navy or the airforce. (Brazil and India come to mind). But again, as has been pointed out again and again, many navies maintain thier own air arms, even those without aircraft carriers (at the very least, the *helicopter* squadrons, and at the other extreme, the Soviets/Russians and their land based anti-shipping bombers)

Non-english terms are probably a bad way to compare stuff anyway, since literally you have countries that call thier navies "Sea Forces" or "Sea Military" or whatnot, but when used in English they gloss it as Navy.

[Eviscerator]

Not from grunt to leading field commander.

"Leading field commander" is a meaningless term. Why do you discard my example of Winters going from lieutenant in charge of a platoon (about 40 men) to major in charge of a batallion (600+ men and their support)?

Because as usual Mr Painrack handwaves a whole lot of things.
What IS a leading field commander, may i venture to be so bold as to ask?
Does such an officer in question command a squad, a platoon, or maybe a battalion?

Ranks are completely human inventions and there is ample documented evidence of Academy graduates freezing in their first engagement and unknowns recieving the highest decoration the country has to give.

Like this fellow here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy

In Wartime (as opposed to peacetime), when an officer falls , the CO does not promote the next man who has seniority whether in age, rank, time in rank, or the amount of time spent in appointment. He appoints the next man who he feels is most suitable for the appointment. Purely for example, appointing the Senator's son who is a lush and a womaniser wouldnt be good for the unit, would it? Getting kudos from the Snr Senator will look pretty good when half your unit is wiped out, i think.

[Eviscerator]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Meadows

While assigned to the 8th Special Forces Group in Panama, MSgt. Meadows volunteered for a tour in Vietnam. At the end of his first tour, serving in the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam - Studies and Observations Group, Meadows received a direct commission as a captain on April 14, 1967.

So is a rise from a Senior NCO rank to an Middle commisioned rank considered a jump from grunt to "leading field commander""?

Oh Wait: On Nov 21, 1970 Capt. Meadows was the team leader for the initial assault team in the Son Tay prison camp raid (see Operation Ivory Coast).

Damn it seems like a grunt became someone with railroad tracks and he lead troops into the field.

[Darth Wong]

Point to keep in mind is that being arbitrary, anything's plausible if you make a decent argument for it. I just wish more people would diversify, you know?

If that was your argument from the beginning, I don't think you would have gotten nearly as much push-back. However, your initial argument seemed to be more along the lines of "it's fucking retarded to use naval terms to describe a space fleet", which was itself a retarded thing to say. If all you meant to say was "it would be nice to see some diversity in the way people describe space fleets, instead of everyone always using naval terms", you would have gotten a different reaction.

[adam_grif]

If that was your argument from the beginning, I don't think you would have gotten nearly as much push-back. However, your initial argument seemed to be more along the lines of "it's fucking retarded to use naval terms to describe a space fleet", which was itself a retarded thing to say.

The thread topic is "SF Military tropes", and my first post on the subject of space force naming/ranking was:

Spacecraft being called "ships", individuals in command being called "captain" and the senior officers in command of many ships being called "admiral". One thing that was refreshing about SGverse was that the Colonels were all running the ships.

Emphasis added. The bolded text is where the "it would be nice to see some diversity" part is present in this initial post. I think you're being a bit too revisionist in your history here. Destructionator XIII was the one who appeared to be having an explosive reaction to the trope:

If space organizations are ever called 'navies' in real life, I'll eat a fucking bullet. There's no way I could imagine living day by day in a world where such extreme fucking stupidity is taken seriously.

[The Yosemite Bear]

hey now it took several books for Hornblower or Sharpe to get higher rank. Now the only one whose gone insanely high rank in a short time would be Honor Harrington...

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. Her career prior to the books wasn't unreasonable; it took her roughly twenty years to get from midshipman to captain, which is in line with real life. She spent five or six more years as a captain... then got handed admiral rank in an allied navy.

Now that's definitely questionable, but in Weber's defense:
-He did lay the groundwork by setting Harrington up as the Woman Who Saved the Planet, making her status as a naval heroine on Grayson legitimate.
-The battles in Honor of the Queen killed off most of the Grayson senior officer corps, leaving very few native Grayson officers who would be any more qualified for flag rank than Harrington was.
-He at least tries to nod in the direction of "Harrington has been promoted beyond her experience and is scrambling to catch up," which is better than nothing.
-It's not unheard of for an officer to be promoted to much higher rank while serving in a foreign navy in real life, either.

Even so, it's shaky, and I think it would have done the series good to show Honor making a few honest mistakes in the fleet exercises that lead up to the climax of Flag in Exile, to reflect her lack of experience as a flag officer. And, for that matter, to show her making mistakes in the rest of the series, which could have done a lot to avert the dreaded Honor Sue Effect...

Anyway. Though I have plenty of complaints about the style, I have to say that Honor's promotion track in her own navy is not unreasonable. She goes from cadet at twenty to captain at forty, and from there to admiral at fifty-five or sixty. That's reasonable enough, especially during wartime and military buildups.