Students kicked off campus for American flag t-shirts

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Pretty much exactly what the title says.

Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees
Freedom of expression or cultural disrespect on Cinco de Mayo?
By GEORGE KIRIYAMA
Updated 12:14 PM PDT, Thu, May 6, 2010

On any other day at Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Daniel Galli and his four friends would not even be noticed for wearing T-shirts with the American flag. But Cinco de Mayo is not any typical day especially on a campus with a large Mexican American student population.

Galli says he and his friends were sitting at a table during brunch break when the vice principal asked two of the boys to remove American flag bandannas that they wearing on their heads and for the others to turn their American flag T-shirts inside out. When they refused, the boys were ordered to go to the principal's office.

"They said we could wear it on any other day," Daniel Galli said, "but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it today."

The boys said the administrators called their T-shirts "incendiary" that would lead to fights on campus.

"They said if we tried to go back to class with our shirts not taken off, they said it was defiance and we would get suspended," Dominic Maciel, Galli's friend, said.

The boys really had no choice, and went home to avoid suspension. They say they're angry they were not allowed to express their American pride. Their parents are just as upset, calling what happened to their children, "total nonsense."

"I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

"I think they should apologize cause it is a Mexican Heritage Day," Annicia Nunez, a Live Oak High student, said. "We don't deserve to be get disrespected like that. We wouldn't do that on Fourth of July."

As for an apology, the boys and their families say, 'fat chance.'

"I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day. I might have worn an American flag, but I'm an American and I'm proud to be an American."

The five boys and their families met with a Morgan Hill Unified School District official Wednesday night. The district and the school do not see eye-to-eye on the incident and released the following statement:

The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions.

The boys will not be suspended and were allowed to return to school Thursday. We spotted one of them when he got to campus -- and, yes, he was sporting an American flag T-shirt.
First Published: May 6, 2010 1:22 AM PDT

Wow, pretty much every side of the issue is acting retarded in this story.

First off the students: Oh it's just freedom of expression, we just all happened to wear american flag shirts at the same time on a holiday celebrating another culture. We're not at all trying to make a statement or cause trouble!

The Administrators: Is there any other way you could have possibly handled this that would have given even more ammunition to the 'Americafuckyeah!' camp, even if you tried?

The Parents:

"I think it's absolutely ridiculous," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mom, said. "All they were doing was displaying their patriotic nature. They're expressing their individuality."

Yeah, they're expressing their individuality by all wearing the same shirts... right.

The other side: Yeah, they're being douchebags and obviously looking to cause a scene. You know what happens when you get pissed off about it? They succeed in their aims, and they succeeded by simply exercising their legal rights. So what if they want to be douchebags? No one is required to celebrate Cinco de Mayo just like no one is required to celebrate Christmas.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I would've made them take the bandannas off, since I think those are against EVERY school dress code in America, but you can't make a kid take off an american flag shirt.

That being said, these kids are dicks and need to be nut-kicked.

[Stark]

Turns out there's no law against being a cunt.

Since other 'days' are going to have people wearing 'non partipatory' shirts (I never wear anything green on St Paddies etc) is this just because US vs Mexico is a big deal?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

That being said, these kids are dicks and need to be nut-kicked.

I don't know about that. I mean sure they're being douchebags of a sort and deliberately trying to cause trouble... but at least they aren't advocate secession, bringing guns to voting booths, etc. This is sort of what freedom of expression is all about, the freedom to be a douchebag so long as it doesn't directly harm, intimidate, or put other people at risk.

[Big Phil]

Cinco de Mayo isn't even a Mexican holiday... it's an excuse for Americans to get drunk, eat chips and salsa, and generally act like retards in Mexican restaurants

[Ziggy Stardust]

Cinco de Mayo isn't even a Mexican holiday... it's an excuse for Americans to get drunk, eat chips and salsa, and generally act like retards in Mexican restaurants

Well, it IS a Mexican holiday, just not an especially important one in terms of celebration. Sort of like Flag Day in the United States- there is significance to it, but it isn't widely observed. But, yeah, Americans decided they needed an excuse to get drunk, eat chips and salsa, and generally act like retards in Mexican restaurants (why on Earth you need an EXCUSE to do any of this is beyond me ... )

[Uraniun235]

First off the students: Oh it's just freedom of expression, we just all happened to wear american flag shirts at the same time on a holiday celebrating another culture. We're not at all trying to make a statement or cause trouble!

I'm pretty sure students making a statement through clothing has been upheld by the Supreme Court; if I remember right the case was about students wearing armbands as a means of showing their opposition to the Vietnam War. That said, if the principal has reason to think that the clothing presents a danger in the form of inciting violence, that's going to override most any freedom of speech argument.

[Big Phil]

Cinco de Mayo isn't even a Mexican holiday... it's an excuse for Americans to get drunk, eat chips and salsa, and generally act like retards in Mexican restaurants

Well, it IS a Mexican holiday, just not an especially important one in terms of celebration. Sort of like Flag Day in the United States- there is significance to it, but it isn't widely observed. But, yeah, Americans decided they needed an excuse to get drunk, eat chips and salsa, and generally act like retards in Mexican restaurants (why on Earth you need an EXCUSE to do any of this is beyond me ... )

Actually, it's closer to San Jacinto day in Texas... i.e., it's only celebrated in one state (Puebla in the case of Cinco de Mayo)

[Kuroji]

First off the students: Oh it's just freedom of expression, we just all happened to wear american flag shirts at the same time on a holiday celebrating another culture. We're not at all trying to make a statement or cause trouble!

I'm pretty sure students making a statement through clothing has been upheld by the Supreme Court; if I remember right the case was about students wearing armbands as a means of showing their opposition to the Vietnam War. That said, if the principal has reason to think that the clothing presents a danger in the form of inciting violence, that's going to override most any freedom of speech argument.

I think those kids' parents are going to win one hell of a lawsuit against the school district. No reasonable person is going to think that this could have incited anyone to be violent.

[jcow79]

I think this school is going to have a tough time defending their actions especially with several cases serving as precedent on this matter. I doubt you’ll find a court in the U.S. that will rule that displaying the U.S. flag is considered “'vulgar,' 'lewd,' 'indecent,' or 'plainly offensive”. Which is largely the requirement on these matters.

Guiles v. Marineau
Tinker v. Des Moines
Bethel School District No. 403 v. Fraser
Hazelwood Sch. Dist. v. Kuhlmeier

Among others.

Wikipedia for Guiles v. Marineau

[ShadowDragon8685]

This sounds like limp-wristed racism on the part of the administrators. Here's how their idiotic thought process went.


1: Ohnoes! Today is the 6th of May; Cinco de Mayo. Those damn niggardly Mexican darkies get all full of Mexico today.
2: OH NOES! Those idiots are wearing the U.S. flag. Those damn niggardly Mexican darkies will get angry about that since Cinco de Mayo is all about Mexicans beating up Americans or something like that.
3: Tell the idiots to take it off or go home or get the shit kicked out of them to prevent those damn niggardly Mexican darkies from beating them up and starting a riot.


All of which is, well... Idiotic, retarded, moronic, and.... Well, it would take our greatest thesaurus to describe the full depths of stupidity involved. Suffice to say it was the highest order of stupid.


I hope these assholes get their chestnuts roasted over an open fire.

[Bakustra]

This sounds like limp-wristed racism on the part of the administrators. Here's how their idiotic thought process went.


1: Ohnoes! Today is the 6th of May; Cinco de Mayo. Those damn niggardly Mexican darkies get all full of Mexico today.
2: OH NOES! Those idiots are wearing the U.S. flag. Those damn niggardly Mexican darkies will get angry about that since Cinco de Mayo is all about Mexicans beating up Americans or something like that.
3: Tell the idiots to take it off or go home or get the shit kicked out of them to prevent those damn niggardly Mexican darkies from beating them up and starting a riot.


All of which is, well... Idiotic, retarded, moronic, and.... Well, it would take our greatest thesaurus to describe the full depths of stupidity involved. Suffice to say it was the highest order of stupid.


I hope these assholes get their chestnuts roasted over an open fire.

Did you even read the article? There were Mexican-American students who were upset by the whole affair and wanted an apology from the students.

I suspect that there's more to the story, but it seems fairly simple on the surface; students wear American-flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo, which is perceived as a deliberate slap in the face of Mexican-American students. The school tries to defuse any potential fights, and ends up in a bad situation. People get up in arms about how patriotic they are to trumpet their Americanness on a cultural heritage day. Nobody wins.

[Uraniun235]

I think those kids' parents are going to win one hell of a lawsuit against the school district. No reasonable person is going to think that this could have incited anyone to be violent.

Do you attend or work at that high school? If not, how would you know what the environment is like and what would potentially incite violence?

In the district I work at, the high school amended the dress code to forbid students from wearing shirts and hats of certain colors. The issue was that these colors were associated with certain gangs and that students wearing these colors could provoke a violent response from rival gang members.

Now, if something as trivial as wearing a shirt of a certain color can be sufficiently provocative as to warrant the removal of the apparel or the student, and if some people of Mexican descent did actually take offense to the statement they perceived these boys at Live Oak High School to be making, is it really that big a stretch to consider it possible that someone might try to pick a fight with one of these boys over it? And that, perhaps, there exists sufficient tension between two ethnic groups that an incident of violence could spark further acts of violence?


I'm not saying this is necessarily the case. This reaction could have been unwarranted. The point I'm trying to make is that we don't know because the article does not give us sufficient evidence to properly judge the response of the administration.

The Administrators: Is there any other way you could have possibly handled this that would have given even more ammunition to the 'Americafuckyeah!' camp, even if you tried?

Pretend you're an administrator who thinks that these kids wearing big American flags on their chests could potentially spark a fight. Pretend you're worried that you or your district could be pinned with liability for injuries sustained should such a fight occur. How would you respond in a way which prevents further provocation without handing sound bites to rabid nationalists?

Those damn niggardly Mexican darkies get all full of Mexico today.

I don't... I don't think you know what "niggardly" means. You might want to look it up in a dictionary.

[Tanasinn]

The message of the flag-wearers is obvious to see: "this is the United States, not Mexico." Whether or not that's a particularly enlightened message is irrelevant. The First Amendment trumps hurt feelings, as far more legitimate cases of upset show.

[Bakustra]

The message of the flag-wearers is obvious to see: "this is the United States, not Mexico." Whether or not that's a particularly enlightened message is irrelevant. The First Amendment trumps hurt feelings, as far more legitimate cases of upset show.

Not when it comes to incitement of violence. I doubt that the "fighting words" exemption would strictly apply in this situation, but the same general principle is in effect.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Those damn niggardly Mexican darkies get all full of Mexico today.

I don't... I don't think you know what "niggardly" means. You might want to look it up in a dictionary.

I don't think you've thought very well about what you're objecting to. Do you really think the kind of mindset I was lampooning has an understanding of what the word 'niggardly' means other than the phonetic similarity to 'nigger' and hence, bad/dark/subhuman morons?

You might as well object to depictions of George W. Bush having ears the aproximate size and shape of DirectTV receiever dishes.

[Mr. Coffee]

So let me see if I'm reading this right...

Five students at a US High School were sent home for wearing shirts displaying the flag of the United States. Don't really give a shit that it was Cinco De Mayo (BTW, Shadowdragon, cinco is "five" or "fifth" in Spanish, not six, dumbass), and hey, maybe the kids were trolling the Hispanic students a bit, but last time I fucking checked the Mexican flag wasn't the US flag, and Cinco De Mayo has no real relevance in the US other than as a cultural heritage day/Mexican-flavored St. Patrick's Day. But hey, other students might get offended... Fuck 'em. If they're US citizens then they shouldn't have a problem seeing the flag of their own country, and if they are not US citizens, then they should shut the fuck up and be thankful that they're in the US receiving the benefit of a school system paid for by our tax payers.

I've got no problem with people being proud of their ethnic heritage, but I do have a problem when they place that ahead of their national identity. It's not like we don't have enough shit to be divisive over, last fucking thing we need is yet more shit. Now, some people aren't going to agree with me here, some of you will think me an asshole for saying it (duh, look at my title), but them's my $0.02, take it as you will.

[Bakustra]

So let me see if I'm reading this right...

Five students at a US High School were sent home for wearing shirts displaying the flag of the United States. Don't really give a shit that it was Cinco De Mayo (BTW, Shadowdragon, cinco is "five" or "fifth" in Spanish, not six, dumbass), and hey, maybe the kids were trolling the Hispanic students a bit, but last time I fucking checked the Mexican flag wasn't the US flag, and Cinco De Mayo has no real relevance in the US other than as a cultural heritage day/Mexican-flavored St. Patrick's Day. But hey, other students might get offended... Fuck 'em. If they're US citizens then they shouldn't have a problem seeing the flag of their own country, and if they are not US citizens, then they should shut the fuck up and be thankful that they're in the US receiving the benefit of a school system paid for by our tax payers.

I've got no problem with people being proud of their ethnic heritage, but I do have a problem when they place that ahead of their national identity. It's not like we don't have enough shit to be divisive over, last fucking thing we need is yet more shit. Now, some people aren't going to agree with me here, some of you will think me an asshole for saying it (duh, look at my title), but them's my $0.02, take it as you will.

So you feel that it's a-ok to "troll" people as long as it involves the American flag? What if Mexican students did the same thing on the Fourth of July, but with the Mexican flag? Does the school not have a responsibility to avoid violence?

Meanwhile, I don't think that attacking the concept of ethnic heritage is the best way to eliminate its divisive characteristics, and only exacerbates the problem, but that's more than a little immaterial.

[Stark]

Are you saying someone wearing a non-US flag on the fourth of July would cause violence? I find that pretty hard to believe.

[Bakustra]

Are you saying someone wearing a non-US flag on the fourth of July would cause violence? I find that pretty hard to believe.

I'm actually asking two separate questions. The school says that they ordered the kids to remove the shirts because of the risk of violence, and I can understand why, depending on the school. So I'm asking whether the school has a right to intervene in this manner to prevent violence. The other is a question over whether it would be as acceptable for cultural minorities to do the exact same thing on holidays that celebrate mainstream American culture.

[Mr. Coffee]

So you feel that it's a-ok to "troll" people as long as it involves the American flag? What if Mexican students did the same thing on the Fourth of July, but with the Mexican flag? Does the school not have a responsibility to avoid violence?

No, I firmly believe that if a US citizen wants to wear the US flag on their clothing in their country they can do so regardless of what fucking day it is. Also, by "Mexican Students" do you mean ethnically Mexican US citizens or actual Mexicans? If their US citizens, who gives a flying fuck, they've got the right to do so. If they're Mexican citizens, then they're wearing the flag of their own country, so again, who gives a shit. Also, if they're Mexican citizens, they should just be thankful they're getting to enjoy the benefits of our nation and not rock the goddamn boat.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with someone being proud of their ethnicity. It's when they try to force their ethnicity on others that my chi gets disturbed and I get a big case of WTF Over Syndrome.

As far as avioding violence, if the school administrators are doing such a piss poor job that they cannot enforce discipline among their charges, then they're doing their goddamned job wrong.

Meanwhile, I don't think that attacking the concept of ethnic heritage is the best way to eliminate its divisive characteristics, and only exacerbates the problem, but that's more than a little immaterial.

Well, fuck, singling out ethnicity really just highlights differences anyway. I don't care if people want to be proud of their ethnicity, more power to them, but their ethnicity doesn't give them any more or less rights than anyone else. I mean shit, if they schools actually wanted to do something useful, instead of making a big to do about Cinco De Mayo, how about having a designated Hispanic history month? I'm sure we could find many examples of Hispanic-Americans who have played a significant role in the history of this nation. Hell, at least then we'd learn something about other cultures. Instead, it's one day that's basically St. Patrick's Day with Mexican flags instead of shamrocks.

[Bakustra]

So you feel that it's a-ok to "troll" people as long as it involves the American flag? What if Mexican students did the same thing on the Fourth of July, but with the Mexican flag? Does the school not have a responsibility to avoid violence?

No, I firmly believe that if a US citizen wants to wear the US flag on their clothing in their country they can do so regardless of what fucking day it is. Also, by "Mexican Students" do you mean ethnically Mexican US citizens or actual Mexicans? If their US citizens, who gives a flying fuck, they've got the right to do so. If they're Mexican citizens, then they're wearing the flag of their own country, so again, who gives a shit. Also, if they're Mexican citizens, they should just be thankful they're getting to enjoy the benefits of our nation and not rock the goddamn boat.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with someone being proud of their ethnicity. It's when they try to force their ethnicity on others that my chi gets disturbed and I get a big case of WTF Over Syndrome.

As far as avioding violence, if the school administrators are doing such a piss poor job that they cannot enforce discipline among their charges, then they're doing their goddamned job wrong.

Well, you're completely consistent then, so I have no problems there. When it comes to violence, what exactly can administrators do to relieve, well, to pick a common example, tensions between different gangs? What they then do is ban identifying markers to prevent students from being able to use gang membership or sympathies as an easy excuse to start a fight. So they tried to do the same thing in this case, but with ethnic/cultural tensions and smaller groups involved. They probably overstepped their legal boundaries, but I can understand why they would do so.

Meanwhile, I don't think that attacking the concept of ethnic heritage is the best way to eliminate its divisive characteristics, and only exacerbates the problem, but that's more than a little immaterial.

Well, fuck, singling out ethnicity really just highlights differences anyway. I don't care if people want to be proud of their ethnicity, more power to them, but their ethnicity doesn't give them any more or less rights than anyone else. I mean shit, if they schools actually wanted to do something useful, instead of making a big to do about Cinco De Mayo, how about having a designated Hispanic history month? I'm sure we could find many examples of Hispanic-Americans who have played a significant role in the history of this nation. Hell, at least then we'd learn something about other cultures. Instead, it's one day that's basically St. Patrick's Day with Mexican flags instead of shamrocks.

Well, it's not the schools that celebrate Cinco de Mayo (except for the Spanish classes) but the students generally. I think that stuff like this will die down if you leave it alone, or at least become something like St. Patrick's Day (but then again, where are all the French and Swedish and German holidays), but that trying to crack down on it would produce a backlash. But I'm pretty sure that we don't disagree that much.

[DudeGuyMan]

Also, there's a difference between something that clearly "incites violence" and "anything anyone might possibly decide to fight over ever". Putting "Kill the Jews" on a shirt is the former, a national flag is not.

[Mr. Coffee]

When it comes to violence, what exactly can administrators do to relieve, well, to pick a common example, tensions between different gangs? What they then do is ban identifying markers to prevent students from being able to use gang membership or sympathies as an easy excuse to start a fight. So they tried to do the same thing in this case, but with ethnic/cultural tensions and smaller groups involved. They probably overstepped their legal boundaries, but I can understand why they would do so.

Thing is, it would make more sense to expose the students to other cultures by adding ethnic oriented lesson blocks to history class or whatever than to celebrate a single ethnic holiday. If they did that the students would learn something *hopefully* outside their zone of experience and get their narrow little asshole teenager horizons broadened a hair. In my experience, the best way to combat racism and such is to expose people to other cultures and show them what those cultures are actually. Get rid of the preconceptions and stereotypes and show them what another ethnic group is, where they came from, what they've done and what influence they've had on society (which when you think about it is kind of important in a massively multicultural society like the US).

Really, ethnicity isn't much like gang affiliation, you can make rules banning the gangbangers from displaying their set's colors or whatever, but you can't make rules banning people's ethnicity. All you can really do is help different ethnic groups understand each other better.

(but then again, where are all the French and Swedish and German holidays)

Dude, if it were up to me we'd do the same thing for Hispanics, Asians, ect that we do for Blacks and just set aside a designated month or whatever to teach about their history. Thing is, it's really not that realistic, because there's so many different ethnic groups that there simply wouldn't be enough time in the school year to pull it off. Worse, you got guys like me who are ethnic mutts and I kinda doubt anyone would want to try and teach a German-Irish-Norwegian-Native American-American History Month.

But I'm pretty sure that we don't disagree that much.

Yeah, I'm pretty much certain we're at least on the same page here.

[Kuroji]

I think those kids' parents are going to win one hell of a lawsuit against the school district. No reasonable person is going to think that this could have incited anyone to be violent.

Do you attend or work at that high school? If not, how would you know what the environment is like and what would potentially incite violence?

No, I am (or at least I would like to think that I am) a reasonable person who lives within a reasonable distance of the border in New Mexico, as opposed to California, but I think if the students there are so easily incited to violence because someone's wearing the flag on a shirt, they're using it as nothing more than an excuse. Everyone involved needs to grow the fuck up -- ESPECIALLY the school administrators. I have never, ever seen a gang using the American flag as their colors (especially because blue and red don't tend to go together too well, ha) and that excuse doesn't fly in this situation.