Students kicked off campus for American flag t-shirts

[Guardsman Bass]

That's what Cinco De Mayo is about? Celebrating some historical victory by the Mexican Army?

I'm glad we don't have Mexico on our border.

The Mexicans themselves don't celebrate it. Apparently Hispanic activists in the US started promoting it as some type of US-Mexican holiday in the 1960s, but it didn't really catch on until Corona and other beer companies really started pushing for it, hence the whole "Mexican St. Patrick's Day" label (although it really should be called "Latino St. Patrick's Day", but whatever).

[gizmojumpjet]

(although it really should be called "Latino St. Patrick's Day", but whatever).

Why?

[Lagmonster]

No shit kids are kids and at times should be told what to say, but by high school there's no reason to be treating them like fucking babies. Allowing them to start speaking to adults on a more even level may cause some fuckers to crash and burn, but let's face it, they likely weren't going to go very far anyway if they haven't grasped the basics. As for them not knowing the consequences that's bullshit, high school kids know plenty, they just aren't often called on it and that should change.

Kids are pathetic, partially-educated whiners. They need caring parents, stern educators, and positive role models, or they never cease being pathetic, partially-educated whiners.

Whether you like it or not, even a teenager has to be told the difference between a good idea and a poor one, because they are under our care, and it is our responsibility to give them the correct answers rather than release them into the world to fuck up. This is the whole cornerstone of why the 'teach the controversy' movement is full of shit: a partially educated and poorly experienced human being needs the direction and input of others, especially in a world that may not be fair.

Now to the bullshit about dress codes and work, no shit they can set guidelines for what you can and can't wear, nobody ever said they couldn't, but if a work places just out of the blue sent you home for wearing an item of clothing with no warning and told you you couldn't wear it one day a year there would be a lawsuit. So go fuck yourself with your dishonest scenario.

Tell you what; you go apply for a job - and remember, job interviews have no official dress code - where the interviewer and all the other candidates are wearing a suit and tie, and you go in there wearing jeans and a big flag t-shirt and flag bandanna, and you let me know how that works out for you. Then, if by some miracle you get a job, you wear whatever you want. If they suddenly come up to you and say, "Okay, new rule, you can't wear that shirt because a bunch of clients complained", you tell them how you're going to sue them if they don't respect your rights.

Taken from the ACLU web site:

Does that mean I can say what I want, when I want, as long as I don't disrupt school?

Not exactly. For example, the Pennsylvania Code adds some restrictions on student speech. It says that students do have the right to express their opinion, but they can't do so in a way that:
* Substantially and materially interferes with school activities;
* Threatens immediate harm to the welfare of the school or community;
* Encourages unlawful activity; or
* Interferes with another individual's rights

The Code also says that students:
* Must follow libel and obscenity laws;
* Must "be aware of the full meaning of their expressions…and the feelings and opinions of others;"
* May have to put their names on posted or distributed materials; and
* May have to get approval before posting or distributing materials.

I cannot see a way that the American flag conflicts with a single fucking one of those guidelines, prick.

Okay, so the following passages in what you quoted; "must be aware of the feelings and opinions of others", and "cannot substantially interfere with school activities". I'm no legal expert, but wouldn't you say provoking a complaint from a body of students described as 'many' over a matter of cultural sensitivity bad enough to instigate violence qualifies as both? I'd say if the administration's goal was to prevent a disruption from occurring, you can't wait until someone throws a punch. The easiest solution was to tell the kids, who are supposed to do what you tell them in the first place and fuck 'em if they think its unfair, to change their clothes.

Frankly, the only position I've held is that kids should generally be expected to do what they're told, even if it involves the guardians coming up and saying, "Okay, new rule, no american flags on this date". If it were me, I'd have sent the Mexican-American kids home, too, if they really were threatening violence over something so petty. Neither side should have been able to dictate the behaviour of the other, because they're kids.

[Bilbo]

I mean don't get me wrong, I do believe that these kids wore the flags to be confrontational, but there's nothing patently offensive about the American flag. I mean if they had worn a confederate battle flag shirt on Martin Luther King Jr day then I see a problem.

I could have argued that there's nothing patently offensive with a rock T-shirt that has "give me head till I'm dead" written somewhere on it either. The point is that back then, students didn't go running to a lawyer at the slightest provocation.

Were you told by a hispanic Vice Principal who runs several programs at the school aimed at hispanic students (both legal and illegal) to take off your shirt? Or wre you asked by someone who saw the rather obviously sexual innuendo of your shirt an found itinappropriate for school?

As a side note the School district has already hung the Principal and Vice Principal out to dry and local papers have even interviewed a hispanic principal of a nearby school who said student wore both Mexican and American flag shirts and there was not a single problem.

Cinco De Mayo is little more than an invention of the Corona beer company. Mexican independence day is some time in September.

[gizmojumpjet]

I'm no legal expert, but wouldn't you say provoking a complaint from a body of students described as 'many' over a matter of cultural sensitivity bad enough to instigate violence qualifies as both?

So a woman who gets raped while wearing a revealing dress provoked her rapist and instigated the rape?

[Bilbo]

Whether you like it or not, even a teenager has to be told the difference between a good idea and a poor one,

Your right and in this case, with the country so up in arms for and against the new Arizona law, the Hispanic students should have been told by their parents to shut the fuck up before they fuel the fire even more. In addition this moron of an administrator shoudl quietly be removed from his job and at best be put in some administrative post in the district outside of a school or fired.

You want to create a giant shit storm then just try and tell Americans that they cannot wear their national flag in their own country anytime they want.

[Darth Wong]

I could have argued that there's nothing patently offensive with a rock T-shirt that has "give me head till I'm dead" written somewhere on it either. The point is that back then, students didn't go running to a lawyer at the slightest provocation.

Were you told by a hispanic Vice Principal who runs several programs at the school aimed at hispanic students (both legal and illegal) to take off your shirt? Or wre you asked by someone who saw the rather obviously sexual innuendo of your shirt an found itinappropriate for school?

I was called into the principal's office, and told that female students would feel threatened by it, as if a rock T-shirt with "give me head till I'm dead" written somewhere on it means that I'm about to rape somebody. I thought this was an unwarranted inference at the time, but it never occurred to me to screech about my "rights" and portray myself as a victim of tyranny or rant about female special-interest groups, never mind running to a lawyer or the press.

That's the problem with the massive entitlement mindset you see among a lot of high school students these days: they're all on the Internet and they all coach each other on their immense righteousness and how to defend it.

[Darth Wong]

I'm no legal expert, but wouldn't you say provoking a complaint from a body of students described as 'many' over a matter of cultural sensitivity bad enough to instigate violence qualifies as both?

So a woman who gets raped while wearing a revealing dress provoked her rapist and instigated the rape?

No, but it would not be unreasonable for the school board to tell its female students to avoid revealing dress, or to impose a dress code. They're not adults yet.

[Bilbo]

I'm no legal expert, but wouldn't you say provoking a complaint from a body of students described as 'many' over a matter of cultural sensitivity bad enough to instigate violence qualifies as both?

So a woman who gets raped while wearing a revealing dress provoked her rapist and instigated the rape?

No, but it would not be unreasonable for the school board to tell its female students to avoid revealing dress, or to impose a dress code. They're not adults yet.

So to take this analogy further what is revealing? Wearing a tight mini? How about a simple summer dress? Its a bit of a stretch to call the American Flag offensive in America. Maybe the kids were making a point, truly clever students would have worn tshirts with the French Flag on the front and the words Mexico City along with the date the French army captured it a year later.

[Darth Wong]

No, but it would not be unreasonable for the school board to tell its female students to avoid revealing dress, or to impose a dress code. They're not adults yet.

So to take this analogy further what is revealing? Wearing a tight mini? How about a simple summer dress?

Who gives a fuck? Make everyone wear long pants for all I care. That's what they do in every goddamned factory I ever worked in, and no one made human rights complaints about it. Goddamn, kiddies are such fucking whiners.

[Guardsman Bass]

(although it really should be called "Latino St. Patrick's Day", but whatever).

Why?

The "St.Patrick's Day" suffix is a joking nickname since beer companies were/are a major promoter of the holiday. As for the "Latino" part, it's because, by and large, it's a holiday for hispanics in the US, since, as I mentioned, Mexicans basically don't celebrate it.

[Bilbo]

No, but it would not be unreasonable for the school board to tell its female students to avoid revealing dress, or to impose a dress code. They're not adults yet.

So to take this analogy further what is revealing? Wearing a tight mini? How about a simple summer dress?

Who gives a fuck? Make everyone wear long pants for all I care. That's what they do in every goddamned factory I ever worked in, and no one made human rights complaints about it. Goddamn, kiddies are such fucking whiners.

Maybe cause in fucking factories its safer to wear tighter fitting pants than a skirt or dress that can get caught in something. Talk about jumping to a completely irrelevent fucking point. I work in an office. Women wear skirts, dresses, or pants as they see fit.

[Darth Wong]

So to take this analogy further what is revealing? Wearing a tight mini? How about a simple summer dress?

Who gives a fuck? Make everyone wear long pants for all I care. That's what they do in every goddamned factory I ever worked in, and no one made human rights complaints about it. Goddamn, kiddies are such fucking whiners.

Maybe cause in fucking factories its safer to wear tighter fitting pants than a skirt or dress that can get caught in something. Talk about jumping to a completely irrelevent fucking point. I work in an office. Women wear skirts, dresses, or pants as they see fit.

No, it's not irrelevant. The point is that when you're on the job, you do not get to use your clothes as a form of political expression, or to claim First Amendment rights if someone tells you to change them.

[gizmojumpjet]

No, but it would not be unreasonable for the school board to tell its female students to avoid revealing dress, or to impose a dress code. They're not adults yet.

My point is that wearing a shirt with a flag on it cannot be reasonably construed as instigating or inciting violence, and any complaint made by Student Group X about Student Group Y's flag-bearing t-shirts is unreasonable and should not have been justified and enforced by the actions taken by the school's administration.

Inciting or instigating violence would be wearing shirts that said "Celebrate Kick a Mexican Day!" To say that shirts with American flags incite or instigate violence is patently unreasonable.

The "St.Patrick's Day" suffix is a joking nickname since beer companies were/are a major promoter of the holiday. As for the "Latino" part, it's because, by and large, it's a holiday for Hispanics in the US, since, as I mentioned, Mexicans basically don't celebrate it.

I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that it's for Hispanics generally, but since I'm not really emotionally invested in the issue, I'm just going to post this picture of some carnitas tacos I made and share a personal Cinco de Mayo anecdote:

Where I work, all the Mexican ladies who work here normally do a huge CdM blowout with tacos, salsas, rice, beans, pan dulces, and so forth; they were in competition with the black ladies, who throw a big BBQ and soul food lunch during Black History Month, to see who could do a bigger blow-out party. This Wednesday I arrived at work, having skipped dinner the night before and breakfast in the morning so as to be able to be super-gluttonous, only to find out management decided people having fun at work was a big no-no and put the kibosh on this year's CdM celebrations. Fuck You, management!

[Flagg]

I mean don't get me wrong, I do believe that these kids wore the flags to be confrontational, but there's nothing patently offensive about the American flag. I mean if they had worn a confederate battle flag shirt on Martin Luther King Jr day then I see a problem.

I could have argued that there's nothing patently offensive with a rock T-shirt that has "give me head till I'm dead" written somewhere on it either. The point is that back then, students didn't go running to a lawyer at the slightest provocation.

Actually, I'd argue that the sexual innuendo is inappropriate in a school setting, even though if I were in charge I wouldn't care unless it caused a major disruption. But I agree, running to the press or a lawyer is retarded. The proper venue is the school board.

[Terralthra]

Taken from the ACLU web site:

Does that mean I can say what I want, when I want, as long as I don't disrupt school?

Not exactly. For example, the Pennsylvania Code adds some restrictions on student speech. It says that students do have the right to express their opinion, but they can't do so in a way that:

* Substantially and materially interferes with school activities;
* Threatens immediate harm to the welfare of the school or community;
* Encourages unlawful activity; or
* Interferes with another individual's rights

The Code also says that students:

* Must follow libel and obscenity laws;
* Must "be aware of the full meaning of their expressions…and the feelings and opinions of others;"
* May have to put their names on posted or distributed materials; and
* May have to get approval before posting or distributing materials.

I cannot see a way that the American flag conflicts with a single fucking one of those guidelines, prick.

And you think the Pennsylvania Code is relevant to a high school in California because...

[jcow79]

The school situation is different from a work environment because a public school is essentially the government and they are prevented by law from unreasonably infringing on your First Amendment rights. While these rights are narrowed somewhat for underage students, there are tons of cases involving these issues and they are pretty clear cut. As far as the reports go, it sounds as if the students were merely wearing the clothes. If there isn't evidence that the students were doing anything more provocative than wearing the clothes than the school hasn't a leg to stand on.

Mike, rather than "give me head till I'm dead", if your shirt had had lyrics from your countries national anthem and you were asked to turn it inside out because people might find it offensive, would you still have complied?

[Highlord Laan]

My sympathy for those five children is . . . zero. Their parents' attitude tells me what I need to know about the situation. Especially when the one child's mother goes on about how the school is interfering with his "patriotic nature," and the children stating "I'm proud to be an American." Especially during a period where the issues of the United States' growing reasonably suspicious Hispanic population and the issue of damned dirty Mexican illegal immigration are both front-and-center in the public consciousness. I am almost certain the five children were being encouraged by their parents to be provocative towards those reasonably suspicious Hispanic people on a day associated with Latino pride. The children had the option of taking off their bandannas and turning their shirts inside-out, which would allow them to stay in class for the rest of the day . . . but they refused to do so. They chose to get themselves sent home instead.

As far as I am concerned, this is an example of a school administration reacting reasonably to a pointed display of racism.

So wearing an American flag, in the US, is a display of racism because it may offend people attending school in this country?

Fuck off.

Apparently your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. If these children had meant neither harm nor foul from their . . . ahem . . . conveniently-timed display of "patriotism," they should've had no problem turning their shirts inside-out, removing their bandannas, and remaining at school. They could've turned their shirts rightside-out and put their bandannas back on after class, since then they'd be on their own time and not the school's. Yet their actions, and the words of their parents, suggest that their intent was to be offensive to the Hispanic students. Not to the point of fighting words, probably because offending the reasonably suspicious Hispanic people stops being fun for the average crypto-racist when punches get thrown in their direction.

Would you be saying the same thing if hispanic students were told to remove clothing bearing the Mexixan flag on the Fourth of July? Somehow I doubt it.

[Darth Wong]

The school situation is different from a work environment because a public school is essentially the government and they are prevented by law from unreasonably infringing on your First Amendment rights.

I'm no American legal scholar so I'm not going to bother arguing First Amendment legal babble. I'm just saying that as a matter of social ethics, there is nothing wrong with forcing kids to wear school uniforms or adhere to dress codes. They are not being harmed, and they are still allowed to "express themselves" on their own time.

While these rights are narrowed somewhat for underage students, there are tons of cases involving these issues and they are pretty clear cut. As far as the reports go, it sounds as if the students were merely wearing the clothes. If there isn't evidence that the students were doing anything more provocative than wearing the clothes than the school hasn't a leg to stand on.

That would depend on whether it appeared that confrontations were brewing with other students.

Mike, rather than "give me head till I'm dead", if your shirt had had lyrics from your countries national anthem and you were asked to turn it inside out because people might find it offensive, would you still have complied?

I would have complied because the issue wouldn't be worth a big fight. However, I would certainly think they were being unreasonable.

However, I'm curious: did these flag-wearing kids do this regularly, or did they suddenly do this especially for this particular day? If so, it sends a message which is not just "I'm proud of my country", but perhaps more subtly, "you people don't belong here".

[KrauserKrauser]

Statements have been made that they regularly wear flag related memorabilia and this just another day, not a fuck you pointed at them damn dirty mexicans as every is assuming.

Also you've said it multiple times that if this happened to you, you would accept it as stupidity, comply and move on with your life. Just because it doesn't matter TO YOU doesn't make what they did any less wrong. Just because you don't want to spend the time necessary to get their actions corrected and them punished doesn't mean they shouldn't be if you were properly motivated.

[Norade]

No shit kids are kids and at times should be told what to say, but by high school there's no reason to be treating them like fucking babies. Allowing them to start speaking to adults on a more even level may cause some fuckers to crash and burn, but let's face it, they likely weren't going to go very far anyway if they haven't grasped the basics. As for them not knowing the consequences that's bullshit, high school kids know plenty, they just aren't often called on it and that should change.

Kids are pathetic, partially-educated whiners. They need caring parents, stern educators, and positive role models, or they never cease being pathetic, partially-educated whiners.

Whether you like it or not, even a teenager has to be told the difference between a good idea and a poor one, because they are under our care, and it is our responsibility to give them the correct answers rather than release them into the world to fuck up. This is the whole cornerstone of why the 'teach the controversy' movement is full of shit: a partially educated and poorly experienced human being needs the direction and input of others, especially in a world that may not be fair.

How does any of that preclude treating High School students more like adults and expecting them to be more responsible with their actions? These youths are already old enough to be starting to drive and join the armed forces, is it so unreasonable to expect them to start learning how to express themselves in a more adult fashion as well? Remember just because you feel high school students are all sacks of uneducated shit doesn't mean everybody does or that your position is right.

Now to the bullshit about dress codes and work, no shit they can set guidelines for what you can and can't wear, nobody ever said they couldn't, but if a work places just out of the blue sent you home for wearing an item of clothing with no warning and told you you couldn't wear it one day a year there would be a lawsuit. So go fuck yourself with your dishonest scenario.

Tell you what; you go apply for a job - and remember, job interviews have no official dress code - where the interviewer and all the other candidates are wearing a suit and tie, and you go in there wearing jeans and a big flag t-shirt and flag bandanna, and you let me know how that works out for you. Then, if by some miracle you get a job, you wear whatever you want. If they suddenly come up to you and say, "Okay, new rule, you can't wear that shirt because a bunch of clients complained", you tell them how you're going to sue them if they don't respect your rights.

I would go to an interview wearing that companies established dress code like an reasonable person would, just as these students did. They wore the same clothing they did on a regular day to school and only on one day a year were they told not to. The article makes a point of mentioning that it would be fine any other day. So if I was at work and suddenly my boss came up and told me suddenly that I can wear my outfit, that currently fits with their established dress code, because a coworker found it suddenly offensive, I'd go to the HR division so fast my boss's head would spin and if I got fired I would make a big deal over it. In this scenario I would be in the right and seeing as there are no clients at school it is the only analogy that fits.

[Darth Wong]

Statements have been made that they regularly wear flag related memorabilia and this just another day, not a fuck you pointed at them damn dirty mexicans as every is assuming.

Well, if that's true then it does seem like the principal was just being an idiot. Especially if no actual confrontations were brewing and he did this just to forestall something that may never have happened at all.

Also you've said it multiple times that if this happened to you, you would accept it as stupidity, comply and move on with your life. Just because it doesn't matter TO YOU doesn't make what they did any less wrong. Just because you don't want to spend the time necessary to get their actions corrected and them punished doesn't mean they shouldn't be if you were properly motivated.

I think it's possible for both sides to be wrong in this case. Was the principal wrong? That is entirely possible, especially if the students regularly dressed like this rather than specifically making some sort of statement that day. But kids who run screaming to lawyers or reporters about the tyrannical repression of their clothing choices are still whiners.

The statement "what a fucking whiny brat" is not necessarily contradicted by finding a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo to prove that he has a right to be a whiny brat.

[Darth Wong]

I would go to an interview wearing that companies established dress code like an reasonable person would, just as these students did. They wore the same clothing they did on a regular day to school and only on one day a year were they told not to. The article makes a point of mentioning that it would be fine any other day. So if I was at work and suddenly my boss came up and told me suddenly that I can wear my outfit, that currently fits with their established dress code, because a coworker found it suddenly offensive, I'd go to the HR division so fast my boss's head would spin and if I got fired I would make a big deal over it. In this scenario I would be in the right and seeing as there are no clients at school it is the only analogy that fits.

Managers like a harmonious office. People who want to maintain a harmonious existence with their coworkers understand that there may be some "give and take" involved. However, shitty employees push back aggressively the moment they feel anyone is stepping on their toes, and they tend to create a poisonous, resentful office environment. I can see which category you belong to.

This isn't a fucking comment forum on cnn.com or some other dipshit waste of time; we're talking about a job, where you have to work with people every day. Who the fuck acts like this?

[Molyneux]

Taken from the ACLU web site:

Does that mean I can say what I want, when I want, as long as I don't disrupt school?

Not exactly. For example, the Pennsylvania Code adds some restrictions on student speech. It says that students do have the right to express their opinion, but they can't do so in a way that:

* Substantially and materially interferes with school activities;
* Threatens immediate harm to the welfare of the school or community;
* Encourages unlawful activity; or
* Interferes with another individual's rights

The Code also says that students:

* Must follow libel and obscenity laws;
* Must "be aware of the full meaning of their expressions…and the feelings and opinions of others;"
* May have to put their names on posted or distributed materials; and
* May have to get approval before posting or distributing materials.

I cannot see a way that the American flag conflicts with a single fucking one of those guidelines, prick.

And you think the Pennsylvania Code is relevant to a high school in California because...

It's given as an example of the limitations of freedom of expression placed on school students. I don't know the related law for California, but I doubt that it differs in any great degree.

[KrauserKrauser]

Well the OP is talking about a school which =\= the workplace. I don't have a truancy officer chasing after me if I don't show up for work as it is my choice to work or not work. Kids have no such choice and are in fact legally required to attend school. Now this certainly for their own benefit but it still is a mandatory attendance situation.

Not exactly the same thing.

It's more like me being thrown out of a primarily hispanic populated DMV for my flag tshirt because the head DMV person has his head so far up his ass that he's coming out the other end.

You might object to the field day that people are having with this but they threatened EXPULSION over this, it definitely would have adversely affected this kids life if they had enacted the indicated punishment. I'm suew people will counter that couldn't have happened, well it didn't in this case because the kid and his parents recognized the wrongness of the actions and have taken steps to communicate it.

Would I be a "whiny little bastard" in my DMV scenario?