An SDNW Proposal

[Steve]

A) I never said how long it'd take for a nation with 3:1 advantage to win.

B) Did anyone see the values I posted for the innate defensive value of a planet in the four sector types? I'll do so again.

Colony: $200
Midrange: $600
Home: $1,000
Core: $1,400

This would not count Army units stationed to a specific planet.

Now, take the 3:1 rule into effect, and these are the combat values you'd need for invasions to have eventual success:

Colony: $600
Midrange: $1,800
Core: $3,000
Home: $4,200

And this is per planet. A Sector has five. That means to successfully conquer an entire sector you'd need the following Army combat values:

Colony: $3,000
Midrange: $9,000
Core: $15,000
Home: $21,000

Again, not counting present Army units. And our nations will likely be in the $45,000-$65,000 ranges and thus armies, well, even if you go with a 50/50 split of starting forces between army and starships you'd need all or almost all of your army forces to commence an attack against an enemy Home Sector with a chance of success.

If anything I'm concerned that system defenses are too powerful, not that people will find it ludicrously easy to conquer territory.

Hellion: With economies of our sizes, and the rules regarding planets, planets are actually a valuable resource for large-scale quality food production and for living space that won't kill you if something malfunctions.

And as Thucydides pointed out once, wars will start over all sorts of things, not just economic impulses or ideology.

Norade: Because they don't need equipment to turn a hostile, lethal environment into a livable habitat, planets have an innate value for food production and positioning of industries (not counting any particular industries that require zero-G or low-G processing) and will normally attract the most settlement and population, making them into economic centers for their sector. Taking systems full of gas giants and barren asteroids for resources won't do as much good if you don't take or at least cut off the central world of that area of the Sector, your holding would be vulnerable.

Also, everyone please remember that we're going to try to focus more on RP than hard rules in this version. Things like battles and invasions will be left for the players to decide and the mods to arbitrate if such can't be settled or the aggressor can't be convinced to not do the storyline. Mod arbitration will thus be aided by the rules regarding combat values and such so that we have a quantifiable basis for decisions without resorting to completely subjective standards.

[Norade]

On defenses, like I said for the sake of the game it works, but that means there's no pretense of any realism in the game.

-----

As far as why asteroids, space habitats, and comets are more valuable than planets there are many reasons. Firstly there is ease of access and for civilizations of our tech levels the asteroid fields, comets, the Kuiper belt, and Oort clouds would all be trivially easy to reach and thus exploit. We all have reliable shield technology, life support, and gravity manipulation tech to make living in space preferable to living on a planet and construction techniques to build them on a scale large enough to fit huge populations.

Example: A 500m by 1000m cylinder with walls 10m thick would have an internal volume of 180,956km^3 and a lateral surface area of 1870km^2 if we say that only half of this is able to be used and have a population density of 4,000 per square kilometer occupied you get a population of around 7.5 million. This is pretty conservative given the tech levels. If you assume that an object like Ceres is totally mined and 1000th of that is useful in building space stations you could build 255,000 of them from that one body and have the asteroid left over. It takes 120 million tons of ore to make one station of solid steel. Also modern ore production for iron alone is 1 billion metric tons per year, enough to build 8 stations per year, in space with better technology that number could rise dramatically.

You can also also harvest ice from a body like Ceres. From this we get oxygen for our stations as well as water with hydrogen being common and nitrogen being easy enough to find we have all that we need to live comfortable lives in space. At current earth Tech level we could build stations such as these if there was the will, so there is no reason to assume that a people more advanced couldn't do far more.

Thusly, because of the above, I think we should have much larger populations GDP's and fleet sizes. It fits the game in both a thematic and realistic way.

[Setzer]

The goal of the game isn't to realistically simulate population density ratios for spacefaring civilizations. It's to Have Fun.
One of my favorite Sci-Fi settings, Battletech, gives me headaches trying to make sense of the numbers, but it's still enjoyable.
And let's not forget the debates on EU minimalism. Let's just go with the published rules for population and GDP. They work, and we can play using them.

[Agent Sorchus]

And Setzer gets right to my point before I post.

You know what, I don't give a damn about realism. Honestly it is boring and is going to make the game far harder to have fun role playing. Whatever happened to the lesbian orgy powered battle stations of having fun? Treat this less like Hard sci-fi and more like a bizarro space opera.

How do we keep track of how many space habitats are in a sector? No one would like it if it were standardized and no one wants to bother keeping track of the bloody things. Also I dislike how the game seems predisposed towards making territory universally hard to capture. How can the games dynamic change if even colonies never change hands? because I could spend almost all of my $55grand on the army and fortify the fuck out of my 8 sectors and get the most defense for my buck at 3 to 1 against the offender. Why yes that gives me no offense and makes it easy for any other player to do scorched earth to me. But then what would the point be? The game needs to retain fluidity without causing players to lose everything. That is why I am totally against the 3 to 1.

As for upping the GDP and fleet numbers, since we have the luxury to mess with the ratios of ships to your dollar we only need to change one of the numbers to achieve the other in effect.

As for GDP determining the defensive strength of the sector, I am against it only because of it's independence from population values. I mean that we can use NCP's to up population, but it has no in game effect. With no effect there becomes no reason to have it.

Once again: Whatever happened to the lesbian orgy powered battle stations of having fun? We don't need no stinking realism.

[Darkevilme]

Indeed we have space catgirls, war bears, the 40k imperium of man and a theocracy built around an immortal anime character(along with probably some equally lul worthy nations that have slipped my mind). This game is not to be taken seriously.

As for numbers, personally i'd go with smaller sectors but keep the same GDP/fleet sizes. But that's just me.

[Norade]

I've already said I agree with the rules for the sake of the game. I was just pointing out why planets, even in lesbian orgy power land, aren't that precious.

[RogueIce]

As has been said, this is a game. The 3-to-1 thing is a guideline, and will be mostly used by mods to help arbitrate disputes. And I don't think Steve will adopt an RTS style "bring x troops to invade, land on planet, insta-victory" model.

As for it being too low/high or whatever, I think we need to consider it from a game perspective. At some point, somebody will want to invade another system, so there should be something for that. On the one hand, you don't want to make it too easy, but on the other you don't want to make it impossible. So a balance needs to be struck.

As far as devoting all your money to an Army and sticking it on your planets and basically going the super-turtle route, that would probably fall under "don't be a dick" and Steve will weild Modnir on your ass.

And for "I have space habitates/inhospitable worlds" I don't think that should make a huge difference, at least when it comes to mod mechanics. Because, you know, some people will probably prefer to have a more conventional setup, and there's no reason they should be punished for not going with something more complicated. And, really, you could almost cross into munchkin territory when you go too far into the "but it's impossible to easily take this/OMG realism!" angle.

People weren't too happy over the Accounting Tycoon of the SDNW3. Do you really think players want to fuck around with the hard scifi crap either? Even from an RP perspective and the mutual storytelling angle, I don't think it all that fair or right to force people to dick around with that kind of crap.

In other words, yes I think realism should be sacrificed, when necessary, for the sake of gameplay and good RPing. If you want super hard scifi or whatever, you can go write your own thing in Fanfics.

[Setzer]

The 3 to 1 thing isn't arbitrary. It's a general guideline in real military manuals. Sometimes you can do it with less, sometimes you can't do it with more. We need to remember that RPing is the rule, number crunching is just a guideline.

[Steve]

How do we keep track of how many space habitats are in a sector? No one would like it if it were standardized and no one wants to bother keeping track of the bloody things. Also I dislike how the game seems predisposed towards making territory universally hard to capture. How can the games dynamic change if even colonies never change hands? because I could spend almost all of my $55grand on the army and fortify the fuck out of my 8 sectors and get the most defense for my buck at 3 to 1 against the offender. Why yes that gives me no offense and makes it easy for any other player to do scorched earth to me. But then what would the point be? The game needs to retain fluidity without causing players to lose everything. That is why I am totally against the 3 to 1.

It's a rule of thumb, not a hard fact.

As for GDP determining the defensive strength of the sector, I am against it only because of it's independence from population values. I mean that we can use NCP's to up population, but it has no in game effect. With no effect there becomes no reason to have it.

Population is going to be used mostly in-game for RP purposes, but in the rules mechanics it also requires you to spend population points for every GDP boost above 1 boost, as was laid out in the rules. You can have a GDP bonus with nothing more, but if you want that second one you've got to add an NCP in population.

Once again: Whatever happened to the lesbian orgy powered battle stations of having fun? We don't need no stinking realism.

Completely agreed.

I am honestly tired of hearing people gripe that their faction should get some bonus to how effective its defenses are because "Oh, we live in space habitats/inhospitable planets". The goal here is to have a fun, interaction-driven game, not some wankfest where you get to put together some perfect sci-fi society.

And Earth-like planets are highly valuable for their ability to sustain humanoid life without substantial, centuries-long alterations - if that's even possible - and to permit high-volume food production without heavy support needed (like you'd need in a naturally unfertile soil on some planet specked with survival domes).

As such, I am not going to alter the ruleset any further save to correct minor mechanical issues if found.

[Siege]

How do we keep track of how many space habitats are in a sector? No one would like it if it were standardized and no one wants to bother keeping track of the bloody things.

So you're first asking for a ruling on this subject, and then you're stating that no-one could possibly be arsed to follow it? Alright, then what's your point? If you don't want to keep track of habitats, then don't. If you want to introduce one as a primary focal point of a particular narrative, then go ahead and be our guest. It's not a part of the hard-coded rules; deal with it.

Also I dislike how the game seems predisposed towards making territory universally hard to capture. How can the games dynamic change if even colonies never change hands? because I could spend almost all of my $55grand on the army and fortify the fuck out of my 8 sectors and get the most defense for my buck at 3 to 1 against the offender. Why yes that gives me no offense and makes it easy for any other player to do scorched earth to me. But then what would the point be? The game needs to retain fluidity without causing players to lose everything. That is why I am totally against the 3 to 1.

So you'd be able to fortify your sectors so nobody would be able to do anything to you... And you wouldn't be able to do anything to other players. In other words, you'd be completely irrelevant. Congratulations; if that's the nation you want to play as by all means go ahead, and we'll all feel comfortable just ignoring your wee corner of space entirely.

This might come as a shock, but the primary point of an SDNW game isn't the nation you construct; it's the narrative you weave between it and its surroundings. If you can't do that and just sit there being impotent, you might not be "losing" (for a given definition of losing) but you will be quite spectacularly useless. Whether you play as a hostile alien hegemony or a peace-loving hippie paradise doesn't matter, what matters is the way you interact with your surroundings. And basing this interaction purely on a random ruleset is just, to put it bluntly, dumb as hell. If you think you need a fast-and-loose guideline like 3-vs-1 to be able to play this game it may just not be for you, because SDNW as I know it isn't about armour ratios vs shell calibres, or numbers of defenders vs attackers, it's about the stories people manage to jointly construct. And if you can't do that, you should probably look for another game that will cater to rules-lawyering or whatever other tiresome bullshit you might be looking for in a game.

[Steve]

I think Siege hit the nail on the head, and it also goes back to what Wilkens remarked upon. The key element is to approach this as a story (or setting for such), not a game. The point is not to win but to take part and be creative, to have fun. Playing some turtle state that maximizes its defense and has no space fleet because you want to play the system means you're clearly not participating for interaction but to "play" and "win". If so, then do us all a favor and don't participate, because we don't want that kind of person involved in SDNW4.

[CmdrWilkens]

Following up a bit on what Steve was saying and again yarning on about when "The Good Old Days" were in fact the good old days (for those who don't know STGOD stands for Structured "The Good Old Days") you could lose vast fleets of warships in an instant...and nobody cared because it fit the story and everyone knew that no jackass would be such a douche as to actually "win" the game in the Clausewitzian sense.

[Norade]

So build for fun it is then!

I'll launch myself in wholeheartedly when I get some ideas...

[Steve]

The Discovery and Origins of ESPers


One of the great issues for the nations of the galaxy are the ESPers - sentient beings who possess advanced senses and capabilities. Some have a form of precognition that warns them of imminent danger or things about to occur, others the ability to feel the emotions of others or even their minds. A relative few even have ESP capabilities that assist them in physical activities, so-called "ESP physical enhancement". A scant handful of these ESPers can attain extraordinary individual power, though as various pundits like to point out, "nothing can save you from a large-yield bomb detonating over your head no matter how much ESP power you have".

Various races have documented the rise of ESP in their societies. The Dorei in particular have had scientifically-proved cases since the rise of their first scientifically-minded societies. For Humanity, it was after the Great Upheaval and the Diaspora that ESP began to make an appreciable statistic appearance, though records have claimed ESP-capability throughout history, in both worlds of Humanity. The origins of ESP in various races and Humanity in particular have been the cause of much scholarly debate.

For Humans' ESP potential, there are two schools of thought, though both derive from the basic concept of genetic mutation. One theory is that exposure to abnormal radiation in hyperspace for the first generations of hyperspace ships prompted such mutations in enough people to ensure its spread into the Human genome. The fact that Human ESPers appeared in recordable, unrefutable numbers after the Diaspora and the first great numbers of hyperspace travelers is seen as bearing this theory out.

But others resist this, on the grounds that there is no proof that hyperspace radiation can get through even the standard radiation shielding of a starship hull, much less promote such radical mutation. Their theory, instead, is that whatever force or process caused the appearance of Humanity on Nova Terra also introduced a recessive, latent gene in the Nova Terran genome that permitted ESP. The advocates of this theory point that most substantial reports of ESP capability stem initially form Nova Terrans, including some before the discovery of hyperspace. In particular is the case of 21st Century Byzantine Emperor Heraclius IV who was recorded as having "visions" of such clarity that he wrote them down and had them passed onto Byzantine space colonists - the resulting Writings of Emperor Heraclius IV accurately foretold the Imperiuim-Tau War of the 27th Century, its causes, and its result.

Opposition to this is varied, primarily from the fact that discovery of an ESP gene has proven elusive despite the complete mapping of the known Genome. There is no specific gene known that permits ESP use, even if there are genetic variances particular to ESPers and to non-ESP family members. Advocates of the hyperspace theory point out that the apparent majority of ESP from Nova Terrans after the diaspora is adequately explained by the fact that Nova Terran populations dominated early hyperspace transits, as the Nova Terran planet was the smaller one and, with a smaller land mass, more terribly overpopulated.

The treatment of ESPers varies. The Imperium conscripts them into service at a young age; the Dorei venerate ESPers are the Fenari - the "Gifted" - and attach religious overtones to their existence. The Dilgrud used them as weapons and the Trill approached the handful of Trill ESPers as mysteries of science to be explored.....

(I'm ending this here: I don't know enough about your various policies toward ESPers).

[Zor]

Nova Atlantean Commonwealth of Worlds

(Normally shortened to Nova Atlantean Commonwealth, Nova Atlantis or the Commonwealth)

Government-The Commonwealth’s government is a Federal Parliamentary Democracy, the main legislative assembly is the Commonwealth Diet who elects from its ranks the Prime-Minister. The executive branch of the Empire is the position of Chancellor, who is elected by popular vote. The Empire is divided up into Provinces, with each run by a locally elected Premier and a Diet appointed figure known as an Archon.

A few areas in the commonwealth are deemed Special Administrative Zones, with municipal governments run democratically but with no representation in the Diet of Commons and are ruled directly by their appointed Archons.

Economy-The Nova Atlantean economy fuctions on a social-democratic model, there is a considerable market sector, but many industries are state owned (notable among them being the arms industry (though R&D is handled by private firms), rail networks, recycling, power services and cybernetics) and regulation is fairly intense. There is a fairly substantial safety net as well. The Nova Atlantean entertainment and luxury industries is notable for its scale, Media from Hsuan/Cichopek Studios, United Empires, Zorston Media and Broadside Games can be found around Terragen Space, as are luxury items from finally made countergravity vehicles produced by Legion Motors, fine wines and sake to sex robots from Artisan Angels. Nova Atlantean manufacturing equipment and computers are also notable for being cutting edge. Finally the Commonwealth has a well developed banking system.

Currency-Commonwealth Mark, one of the more stable currencies.

Demographics-The Nova Atlantean Government is rather tolerant, with minorities of genmods such as Chamaran and various aliens, including even a statistically small minority of refugee Tau among their population. There is legal equality for any species which is deemed sapient by the Ministry of Science. Near baseline Humans make up the largest demographic, about 75% of the total population. Despite this, the most prominent demographic of the Commonwealth is that of Posthumanity.

Posthumans are human as far as genetics are concerned but they are ultimately cybernetic beings, basically a human brain and spinal column that have various nanotechological connections and enhancements placed inside a synthetic casing. Said brain can exist on its own for some time and can be fairly easily moved from body to body. Posthumans also have a greater ability to use machinery, communicate and have superior reaction times, can calculate faster and think about. The process also generally makes for more level headed and mentally stable individuals that have a greater degree of emotional control, although it does tend to cultivate a few eccentricities as well. The process also grants practical immortality (with matinence, a Posthuman can go on indefinitely). Cyberization however is a time consuming process and requires specialized equipment and as such is expensive. It also has the side effect of removing psionic abilities (and at the same time making it very difficult for psionics to sense the emotions, thoughts and presence of Posthumans), but most commonwealth citizens see this as a reasonable trade off. Posthumans often have several bodies and a sizable market exists for customized forms.

As of now, only 6% of the Commonwealth’s population has been converted to Posthuman, but the number of post humans in the commonwealth is steadily growing and it is believed that within a century or two the majority of the Commonwealth’s human population will be fully cyberized. In addition to Cyberization of existing humans, occasionally additional Posthumans are occasionally commissioned, with new brains are grown and cyberized to add to the Posthuman population. Most humans in the Commonwealth have some degree of Cybernetic enhancements, generally at least having a basic mind/machine interface.

Posthumans are statistically the most likely people to attain public office, over 85% of the members of the Diet are Posthuman as are numerous members of the diplomatic corps and make up a good sized chunk of the officer’s corps. This is generally because of the fact that those which can be cyberized are mostly either wealthy or are selected to receive a sponsored cyberization due to some notable achievements (making some scientific breakthrough, excellent performance in the civil service, military distinction and so forth). As well in general Posthumans have many advantages which normal humans and unmodified sapients don’t, such as imperviousness to senility, decades to build up support and so forth.

Culture-The Commonwealth is a secular nation both governmentally and culturally. Religion in the opinions of Nova Australians is a personal matter and if done, should be done quietly and privately. In general Commonwealth society is tolerant and cosmopolitan, although there are a few things they don’t approve of, such as group minds and so forth.

Nova Australian society has several distinct views, most notably their policy towards criminals. In the opinion of a Nova Australian, most traditional means of punishment are deemed archaic, barbaric and backwards. Outside of things such as fines, economic penalties and so forth, the only punishment used by Nova Australians is jail time and various degrees of Neurological Reprogramming. Criminality is not seen as a foul evil which needs to be met with fire and rage, but rather as a sort of faulty programming among certain individuals that needs to be rectified. That said, the typical Commonwealth belief is that policing is a much greater tool against crime than punishment and has fairly extensive monitoring of the general populace. Combined with a fairly high standard of living, the crime rate in Nova Australia is fairly low, with very little in the line of organized crime.

Nova Australians beleive that the transition from Humanity to Posthumanity is the proper course of Human Evolution, although they still beleive that the process is voluntary. Cyberization is considered a sign of status among Nova Australian Society. Psionic abilities are seen as ultimately a dead end, without the same degree of utility offered by the melding man and machine into one. ESPers are allowed the same legal rights as normal citizens, but need to be registered and are under a considerable degree of monitoring via specialized implants. Research is going on into non human cyberization.

Military-The Commonwealth maintains a respectable military, divided into four main branches

Nova Atlantean Commonwealth Star Navy-The senior most service, the Star Navy is responsible for Interstellar Power Projection, commanding an FTL force. The Navy also operates various troopships.

Nova Atlantean Commonwealth System Guard-The System Guard is responsible for system security and policing activities. System Guard forces have a few FTL craft, but their main responsibility is maintaining defensive fortifications and fighter squadrons.

Nova Atlantean Commonwealth Army-The Army is responsible for the planetary defense and occupation. The army is subdivided into three categories of Units.

Posthuman Forces: Posthuman Forces are specialized units composed entirely of Posthumans. Generally these are recruited from the existing human forces, but also from exemplary soldiers and those wounded in combat. Said soldiers are equipped with combat bodies able to fill a variety of roles, from infiltration to heavy support infantry, as well as having at their disposal various AFVs (artillery, tanks, AA and so forth). Given combat programming, heavy arsenals and durability, strength, and speed well beyond that of mere humans although their expense means that there are few Posthuman Legions (division) in the Army.
Regular Forces: Regular forces make up of human and humanoid soldiers, respectably well trained and equipped, sometimes mixed in with a few posthuman officers. The army is divided into several categories at the Legion level: Infantry (Light Infantry), Motorized (Mechanized Infantry), Airborne (Areofighters, Gunships, Skyships and so forth), Mechanized (AFVs and Artillery), Armed Keepers of Order (AKO for short, specialized infantry with some vehicle support trained in basic policing used for occupation of planets) and Specialists (Marine Combat, Artillery, Point defense, space combat specialists)
Homeguard-Homeguard is a civic defense program which is generally inactive, a sort of militia. Homeguard forces are usually only trained in case of a war threatening a planet.

Nova Atlantean Unconventional Warfare Corps-The UWC is a small section of the Nova Atlantean military used for specialist missions and operations, such as assassination, surgical strikes, espionage and so forth. Among the more specialized tools at its disposal are various cybernetic systems including making use of "Strategic Rehabilitation". It also is the only branch of the Nova Atlantean military to actively make use of ESPers.

Political Relations-While it does have some ambitions to bring in new worlds to better secure its boarders and improve its economic position, it tries to avoid direct confrontation with the major powers. The acceptance of Tau Refugees has led to conflicts between the Commonwealth and the Imperium of Man and many foreign psionics are not praticularly fond of the idea that they are an evolutionary dead end.

(NOTE: i would appreciate PMs to help me further develop the Political relations between the Commonwealth and other powers)

[Lonestar]

Steve, this should really, really, really be pushed back to July. The whole point of orinally pushing it back to July is to avoid burnout in the STGOD.

You can look at the participant roll call thread to see that the only people(besides Siege) who are chiming in are the ADHD Lemmings who drop out of STGODs or those who haven't played in a SDNW one. Pushing the start date to July will weed out some of the ADHD dingleberries who quit or simply stop participating in the previous SDNWs.

[Norade]

While I would play if it started now, I fully support pushing the date back. I have a ton on my plate game and otherwise and July will give me a nice distraction before I have to start school and my activity will start slowing down.

[Steve]

Just for everyone's consideration, I'm looking to spend the rest of this month with the roll call and history posting, then in June we can get starting data sorted out, consolidate fluff, post character pieces, etc. and look to formally start time progression in late June or early July.

[Norade]

Sounds perfect.

[Thanas]

Steve, this should really, really, really be pushed back to July. The whole point of orinally pushing it back to July is to avoid burnout in the STGOD.

Agreed.

[Bluewolf]

I agree with maintaining the July start date as well.

[Setzer]

Yes indeed. The plan was to start in July, and I see no reason to change it.

[Siege]

Whilst I was never opposed to starting earlier (obviously), starting in July as planned is perfectly fine by me as well.

[Teleros]

Don't mind when we start, so long as we do .

[Zor]

The July timeframe works perfectly for me.

Zor