What happened to the 7 Deadly Sins?

[Darth Wong]

Apart from being referenced occasionally in pop culture, what happened to the 7 deadly sins as defined by the medieval Catholic church? For those who don't remember, here's the list:

1. Pride
2. Avarice (greed)
3. Envy
4. Wrath
5. Lust
6. Gluttony
7. Sloth

We all know that "lust" is widely condemned as a sin, but what's the last time you heard anyone blasting the prevalence of pride, greed, envy, wrath, gluttony, or sloth in modern society? Have the 7 deadly sins simply been ignored by modern Christians?

[Gil Hamilton]

They were officially made Virtues by Protestants and particularly embraced by Evangelicals as a way of sticking it too the Papists.

[Temujin]

They were officially made Virtues by Protestants and particularly embraced by Evangelicals as a way of sticking it too the Papists.

That's no surprise considering the way Protestantism goes hand in hand with Capitalism and Libertarianism. The Beck worshiping Tea Bag assholes I work with exhibit all seven on a weekly basis and are damn proud of it.

[Coyote]

The "prosperity gospel" makes greed, envy, pride and gluttony into non-events. I think it was Calvinist philosophy (I may be mis-remembering) that stated that "the chosen" for heaven are already "chosen" regardless of what people do on Earth, so why not settle in for some good ol' fashioned lust, greed, and gluttony, et al?

[Srelex]

Because most fat redneck Joe McInbred fundies fail all of them on a daily basis, and don't see a need to draw attention to that.

[Mayabird]

Calvinist philosophy, at least at first, did maintain that people should try not to be shitheads, though they were a bit backwards about it by saying that the Elect would show that they were predestined by not being shitheads and being charitable and so forth. Then they completely lost whatever excuse of an intellectual tradition and theology that they had.

[Stuart]

Apart from being referenced occasionally in pop culture, what happened to the 7 deadly sins as defined by the medieval Catholic church? For those who don't remember, here's the list:

1. Pride
2. Avarice (greed)
3. Envy
4. Wrath
5. Lust
6. Gluttony
7. Sloth

We all know that "lust" is widely condemned as a sin, but what's the last time you heard anyone blasting the prevalence of pride, greed, envy, wrath, gluttony, or sloth in modern society? Have the 7 deadly sins simply been ignored by modern Christians?

They're misdemeanors in 23 states, felonies in six and compulsory in California.

I think wrath also is still regarded as a sin; it's something more than just anger, it represents that kind of blind fury that makes the perp not care who or what gets hurt. I don;t think the rest are taken particularly seriously these days though.

[Samuel]

They're misdemeanors in 23 states, felonies in six and compulsory in California.

'

Not true- you can't be truly lustful and slothful for instance. Although greed and envy are pretty much the same.

[Narkis]

They're misdemeanors in 23 states, felonies in six and compulsory in California.

'

Not true- you can't be truly lustful and slothful for instance. Although greed and envy are pretty much the same.

Thoughts count for sins, yes? So you could be lustful, but too lazy to do anything about it.

[nightwyrm]

They're misdemeanors in 23 states, felonies in six and compulsory in California.

'

Not true- you can't be truly lustful and slothful for instance. Although greed and envy are pretty much the same.

You could just lay there and let your partner do all the work.

[Spoonist]

They are still in the catechism of the CC. They have fallen out of use in sermons etc though.

link to the holy see

1866 Vices can be classified according to the virtues they oppose, or also be linked to the capital sins which Christian experience has distinguished, following St. John Cassian and St. Gregory the Great. They are called "capital" because they engender other sins, other vices.138 They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia.

They are the counterpoint to the "human virtues given by the holy spirit", which are no longer seven but four due to modern christians got back in touch with the old sources like Plato during the renaissance...
Prudence, justice, fortitude, temperance.

As a backdrop one should also note the medieval notion of chivalry where to that is added another eight beatitudes.
Humility, Compassion, Courtesy, Devotion, Mercy, Purity, Peace and Endurance.

Seven heavenly virtues which used to be the counter to the cardinal sins was
chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, humility
which would protect you against the cardinal sins.


My own opinion on why they are not as popular as they used to be, is that they anger the audience. It is no longer in fashion to demand of your perish that they behave virtously to get to heaven because that is to demand that they change their ways.

[Teleros]

We all know that "lust" is widely condemned as a sin, but what's the last time you heard anyone blasting the prevalence of pride, greed, envy, wrath, gluttony, or sloth in modern society? Have the 7 deadly sins simply been ignored by modern Christians?

Read this a few years back, still think it's good: Of the seven deadly sins, six are now medical conditions and one, pride, has become a virtue.

My own opinion on why they are not as popular as they used to be, is that they anger the audience. It is no longer in fashion to demand of your perish that they behave virtously to get to heaven because that is to demand that they change their ways.

Yeah, especially these days. 400 years ago if you didn't like what you were listening too there wasn't much you could do. Now it's a lot easier to avoid things you don't want to listen to.

[Formless]

Obvious question time, but out of curiosity what exactly do you think of the "seven deadly sins," Mike? I think I read somewhere where you defended the inclusion of gluttony and you've blasted pride on a number of occasions, but what about the rest?

[Temujin]

Obvious question time, but out of curiosity what exactly do you think of the "seven deadly sins," Mike? I think I read somewhere where you defended the inclusion of gluttony and you've blasted pride on a number of occasions, but what about the rest?

The problem with pride is that it already has an ugly twin in the form of vanity, something the Bible also mentions, even in a self describing quote by god himself. I've always considered pride, like patriotism, to be something that is basically good, but having a fine line that one can easily be crossed that can turn it into vanity (like nationalism in regard to patriotism).

[Gil Hamilton]

The "prosperity gospel" makes greed, envy, pride and gluttony into non-events. I think it was Calvinist philosophy (I may be mis-remembering) that stated that "the chosen" for heaven are already "chosen" regardless of what people do on Earth, so why not settle in for some good ol' fashioned lust, greed, and gluttony, et al?

The Calvinists would also argue that the pre-determined chosen of God wouldn't partake in such things. Because they are heaven bound. If you think it's a circular argument that the heaven bound don't commit any sins that would exclude them to heaven because they are heaven bound then... well, you'd be right.

Of course, most of the descendants of Calvin's movement focus more on salvation by Christ alone rather than you are guaranteed to go to Heaven if you've got a reservation, but often that boils down to the same thing; works on Earth are useless, you can be as rotten as you want as long as you've accepted Jesus, and the handwaving circular argument that bad people whom they think should go to hell must not have Jesus in their hearts because they are bad people. Meanwhile, God WANTS you to own that Winneabago and doesn't care if you've eaten a liter of fried chicken flesh in one setting while you've got neighbors down the road can't feed their kids.

[Simon_Jester]

Obvious question time, but out of curiosity what exactly do you think of the "seven deadly sins," Mike? I think I read somewhere where you defended the inclusion of gluttony and you've blasted pride on a number of occasions, but what about the rest?

The problem with pride is that it already has an ugly twin in the form of vanity, something the Bible also mentions, even in a self describing quote by god himself. I've always considered pride, like patriotism, to be something that is basically good, but having a fine line that one can easily be crossed that can turn it into vanity (like nationalism in regard to patriotism).

Back when all this stuff was written, "vanity" could translate as "futility," as in "his efforts were in vain." When God says "all is vanity," it means "this is a complete waste of time."

Whereas "pride" referred to something a lot more extreme than you seem to be thinking of. Pride was the thing that drove you to commit hubris, either in the modern sense (thinking you're like a god) or in the ancient sense (feeling invincible and committing a wrong act that shames you and gets you into trouble). It wasn't just thinking "Yeah, I'm all right." It was thinking "Yeah, I'm the baddest motherfucker who ever lived, so I'm going to mess with you just to prove how bad I am." That was the level where pride became a mortal sin.

Actually, the distinction between "mortal" and "venial" sins may have a lot to do with the question of where this concept went. In the Catholic tradition, the real key is to confess any sins you commit, get them off your chest, and make suitable penance to clear them from your soul before you die. Forgiveness is something your confessor can give you on a regular basis if you're actually sorry and if you're willing to put in the time and effort to set yourself right with God.

But there were a lot of things that the Church prohibited, but couldn't bring themselves to say "if you've done this kind of stuff and haven't straightened it out when you die, you go to Hell." So they created two categories:

-Venial sins, which were forgivable in the afterlife. Commit a venial sin, and eventually God will forgive you even if you don't make your confession, though you'll have to sweat for it in Purgatory. Ultimately, it's not that big a deal.
-Mortal sins, which were not forgivable in the afterlife. Commit a mortal sin, and you're basically saying "Fuck you, God!" If you don't repent for that kind of stuff before you die, you go straight to Hell. Thus "mortal" in the sense of "this kills your soul."

The seven mortal sins (or rather, the seven categories of mortal sins) got translated as "deadly" sins, and that's what we're looking at here.*

The catch is that in the Protestant model, this entire concept makes no sense, because there's no way of being forgiven your sins in your earthly life. It's all or nothing: either you are saved by God, in which case your sins will be washed off your soul regardless, or you aren't, in which case no sin is forgivable. Salvation may come by faith, or by grace, or whatever, but the point remains that there's no difference between little forgivable sins and big deadly ones that send you to Hell.

So that's what happened to the "seven deadly sins:" they're not really a part of Protestant doctrine in any case. They may have lasted a while as a holdover from Catholic days, but it was inevitable that you'd see Protestant churches springing up that don't acknowledge the idea that some sins are forgivable-in-life and others aren't. And by now, 500 years after the schism, the ones who don't go for that dominate the playing field, at least in the US.

*Note that not all acts that fall within the seven "mortal" categories are mortal sins. Getting mad at someone is not automatically the mortal sin of wrath, eating too much at one feast is not automatically the mortal sin of gluttony, and so on.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

They're misdemeanors in 23 states, felonies in six and compulsory in California.

'

Not true- you can't be truly lustful and slothful for instance.

Sure you can, anyone who's wanted to get off, but are too lazy to go out and get some tail, so they fall back on the ever reliable internet porn machine can attest to that.

My own take on the seven deadly sins is that, like many other things that are lambasted by hardcore religious types, they're perfectly fine and sometimes even desirable... in moderation. It's only when they're taken to excessive levels that they become harmful. A majority of the seven can actually be seen as distinct advantages in nature, while the others can be advantageous to a progressive society.

Pride: Simply the crime of feeling good about something you've done or something you are. Pride can be a huge motivating factor for any number of great works, from art, to buckling down and getting an education, to joining the military. Perfectly fine in moderation.

Avarice: Wanting more than you have now. In nature, those that got the most resources tended to be the most successful. In human society, again, in moderation it can drive you to do great things.

Envy: Wanting something that someone else has. A more focused version of greed. But again, in moderation, civil one-upmanship can help advance technology, science, and is the basis for pretty much every organized competition in existence.

Wrath: Violent anger. In nature if you aren't willing to fight to survive, you're not likely to survive. In human terms, there are some things important enough to violently defend and get angry over. Again, all a matter of moderation and prudent application.

Lust: Self-explanatory, really. It's literally fucking essential in moderation.

Gluttony: Taking more than you can use at the time, essentially. In nature it's common to completely gorge one's self when one has the chance because who knows when the next meal is going to come? Not to mention the fact that denying resources to the competition will ultimately reduce said competition, and free up resources for one's self in the future. Again, moderation is the key.

Sloth: Just sitting on your ass and doing nothing. Again, in nature it's never a given when you're going to find your next meal or mate. Those who know how to conserve their energy until the right time are able to last longer in any given dry spell. In humans, it's a requirement for psychological and physical health that you don't push yourself too hard or too long and take the occasional lazy time to reset your mind and body. Again, moderation.

[speaker-to-trolls]

^That's pretty much my view, but I'm not quite sure whether, according to the Christian definition, these things are always deadly sins, or if this kind of behaviour is only counted as such when it crosses a certain threshold or makes you act on it?
I suspect that it's always counted as a sin given Jesus teaching that if a man commits adultery in his heart he has committed adultery, and likewise murder, I expect that means that just thinking these things is sinful, though possibly not feeling them if you don't let the feeling 'get the better of you' and translate into actual thoughts. The way one Christian explained it to me is that it's wrong at the point at which you actually consider doing something about it, even if only hypothetically, because on some level you are preparing to act on it.

To be honest if that's the case the hardest to avoid would be sloth, because I'm sure even the most diligent worker just wants to get his workload over with sometimes.

[Stravo]

In modern America where we lead the world in obesity (gluttony, sloth) and have the most people in the world jailed (wrath, avarice. envy, lust) and brought ourselves to the brink of total economic collapse through wanton greed (avarice, envy) how can anyone with a straight face preach against these sins when we obviously worship at the altar of these sins? Especially avarice, gluttony and sloth are rampant in this society if you're honest about things as they are. We're fat, lazy and greedy little bitches. Also a consumer society like ours undoubtably is thrives on things like envy, lust and pride (keeping up with the Joneses is unabashed envy and lust, showing off your new toys is pride pure and simple.)

[Liberty]

Apart from being referenced occasionally in pop culture, what happened to the 7 deadly sins as defined by the medieval Catholic church? For those who don't remember, here's the list:

1. Pride
2. Avarice (greed)
3. Envy
4. Wrath
5. Lust
6. Gluttony
7. Sloth

We all know that "lust" is widely condemned as a sin, but what's the last time you heard anyone blasting the prevalence of pride, greed, envy, wrath, gluttony, or sloth in modern society? Have the 7 deadly sins simply been ignored by modern Christians?

You know, that's a good question.

I don't think you can just point at protestantism or Calvinism as a reason for their going out of style. I think the reality is that they came smack up against Capitalism and lost. After all, Pride, avarice, envy, gluttony, and sloth are all essential for capitalism to function. Why do I include sloth? Simple, really. If there was no reward out there for once you've worked and made your money, what would the point be? Instead, you get to retire at 65 and kick back and relax while you take cruises all over the world. At least, if you're rich, but that's the point. So I do agree that these five have been made ideals, etc.

Lust and wrath are still seen as a problem in society, however, and I think everyone agrees that wrath, anyway, is nearly always bad.

Interesting, isn't it? I mean, fundamentalists have literally put capitalism in the Bible, while Christians at large have rejected the idea that pride, avarice, etc, are sins with less fanfare. It seems that whenever religion comes up against prevailing economic conditions...religion loses. Of course, this may be an isolated example, but it is interesting nonetheless.

Has any country rejected Capitalism on religious grounds?

Finally, I'd imagine true socialists would have a problem with avarice, envy, gluttony, and sloth, though not necessarily with pride.

[Coyote]

And don't forget, Liberty, that in the US "Capitalism" is now synonymous with "Patriotism". Throwing your hard-earned money at corporations to buy needless, redundant trinkets is "sustaining the economy" and a patriotic act; W.'s great call to arms after 9-11 was "go shopping". And it is all a "ethical" and moral thing to do, because God blesses the USA (cue music, tears).

[The Yosemite Bear]

Also as per the prod/evangelicals I've talked to, the Seven Deadly sins aren't part of the good book, they wer created by monks in the dark ages, so along with the circles of hell based on the seven deadly sins, they don't exist.

[Jeremy]

fat redneck Joe McInbred fundies

Feel any better now?


Sloth is applied to religious matters, doing nothing when you religiously should. For example, a person should abandon their comforts and honors if they have the chance to do good and helpful things which will bring you humiliation and suffering.

I was listening to Michael Savage last night and he said another complaint you don't hear much is one being "ostentatious".
I was listening to an NPR show today where they said the money spent on a first generation iPod (maybe an iPhone) would have tripled its value in Apple's stock.
Who knew those stations would be complimentary?

[Enola Straight]

A fundi Calvinist co-worker of mine says they are sins and they are bad, but there is nothing inherently special about them...in other words, sin is sin, period.