The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[JN1]

Didn't someone once say that treason was only treason if it doesn't succeed? Technically those who had a hand in deposing James II in favour of William IV were traitors to the Crown (as were the Parliamentarians during the British Civil Wars). However it did, in fact, set a precedent that Parliament can boot out a Monarch and replace them if it chooses.

[Night_stalker]

History is written by the victors.

[R011]

Didn't someone once say that treason was only treason if it doesn't succeed?

Ovid:

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

[EdBecerra]

Are you saying that mindless loyalty to a piece of geography and its current government should automatically outweigh all other moral and ethical considerations in a person's mind?

I'd find it hilarious -- but oddly plausible -- if any of the HEA troops admitted to anyone that this was actually why they were on "humanity's side"... that, and going with a winner, nothing to do with higher-minded motives (i.e. anger about betrayal by Yahweh, a desire to save the dead.)

Ironically enough, this strikes home - an author with the amusing name of Lon Tinkle did a book on the Alamo and happened to discuss one of my direct ancestors. (Given the distance in time, and the nature of history itself, the phrase "take this with a grain of salt" comes to mind.)

Jesse Becerra was one of the enlisted with the Mexican Army, supposedly charged with trying to take James Bowie alive (Santa Anna wanted a show trial for treason, as Bowie was technically still a Mexican citizen.)

Jesse counted the Mexican bodies. He counted the American bodies. And that same night, stole a paychest and began running. Didn't stop until he reached the Canadian border. Which is how my father's side of the family ended up near Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Dad's side of the family has always been real big on "We're on whichever side happens to be winning at the moment, and money's always nice... but family, first, last and always."

(Amusingly enough, his branch of the family started out as cattle thieves, and their motto, loosely translated from latin, more or less amounts to "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove a thing." Bart Simpson would be proud.)

Ed.

[old Infantryman]

So, I have liked and respected every traitor I have ever met. Those who consider it an important objective to root out treason in their countries, who live by the motto "My Honor is Loyalty", make only a negative impression on me.

"Treason can never prosper, because with prosperity it ceases to be treason" - can't recall where I read that.....

[GrayAnderson]

It was my understanding that pantheons and religions are usually human inventions, and Yahweh and Cybele were exceptions to the rule: actual supra-dimensional creatures who masquerade as gods, before everyone including, apparently, their own minds. I don't thing there's an Odin or a Zeus, or a Jupiter out there. Stuart did mention "the others" who snatched Elvis, but that could be Cybele's faction.

Its been heavily hinted, to the point of downright stating, that there are several other bubble worlds in Universe-2 (that of Heaven and Hell), many of which have their own pantheons that have had contact with earth and our universe in the past. Most religions on Earth have been said to be either based off of one of these pantheons, or offshoots thereof. Example, the daemons hate being called "devils" because this is the name they used for a different race of beings they fought a long time ago. Also the example of Caesar being under the direct protection of some "gods", making it so the daemons couldn't bind him in the pit. So there very well could be a Valhalla world or a Mount Olympus world out there, we just haven't found or had direct contact with them yet.

Though you can bet there will be some of that in the third book, "Lords of War".

There are plenty of other bubble universes hinted al both in-story and out-of-it (millions to infinity). Thing is, there's no implication they are inhabited or inhabitable.

Also, I see no reason why every single religion practiced by humanity has to have a God somewhere in there. I don't think running into Olympians is a guaranteed possibility, and nobody knows how many 'gods' have found Earth. It's a big Universe; why should they all congregate here?

And back to the many kinds of afterlife, which Simon_Jester mentioned and which started this whole thing: the Greek three-branched afterlife, the Mesopotamian system, etc: my point was that they either never existed, or they do not exist now, as their owners were ground into dust by Yahweh and his angels. So in the soul pathway, there's the Minos gate, its heavenly counterpart, and whoever the others are, and I think Cybele's people = others, because Yahweh would start a war otherwise.

Huh, fun question: didn't these defeated gods have their own bubble universes? What happened to that real-estate? Nobody said anything about other bubbles, and we know Satan's rebellion started when he found Hell. You'd think they are somewhat important.

There was a statement, either in Armageddon or Pantheocide, that Yahweh and Satan had pushed out some other faction(s) from Earth. The implication was that they got them to step aside through negotiations (aggressive or otherwise), not through wiping them out. As to the fight over Hell, let me suggest that the discovery of allordal property is what might have triggered the fight. If most of these bubble universes are occupied, then finding one without someone already in charge might well be a bit of a jackpot. Similarly, getting the "others" to take their business to another planet is probably easier than actually wiping them out...and that's basically what I think happened (if I read the story right). The "others" who snatched Elvis might be Cybele's faction. They might not. And I will note that Caesar expressly referred to a plural group that was protecting him, not a singular individual.

I do agree that not every religion needs to be in the mix somewhere. However, I also find it unlikely that none of them would be there; I would also note that a number of religions seem to be repeats of earlier pantheons. For example, the Romans basically copied and pasted the Greek mythos (albeit with some modifications to deal with other civilizations' stuff), while the Buddhists work with a lot of Hindu material. The various Mesoamerican religions also "rhyme" in some regards, too. In essence, while I don't think every religion is going to prove out, I do think that it is reasonable to posit that most archetypes have some basis (even if that basis is rather badly distorted in what's been passed down).

The other thing I would note is that none of the species are posited to have "sprung out of the cosmic foam". We don't know how they reproduce, but we do know that they do (Jesus being the prime example of this). So some of the more "human" pantheons might well make more sense and be more common, while the infamous team that we're in the process of dealing with the remaining member of might well be an outlier (as indeed monotheistic religions seem to be within human history).

And yes it was me, not Simon, who brought this up.

[pharo212]

So, I have liked and respected every traitor I have ever met. Those who consider it an important objective to root out treason in their countries, who live by the motto "My Honor is Loyalty", make only a negative impression on me.

"Treason can never prosper, because with prosperity it ceases to be treason" - can't recall where I read that.....

I believe R011 just quoted that, or something similar. And I think it's similar to the difference between a revolution and a rebellion; depends on which side is talking and who one.

Didn't someone once say that treason was only treason if it doesn't succeed?

Ovid:

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

[Night_stalker]

I just had a thought: How would George Washington think of our country now? After he's pulled from the pit and all.

[Jim Starluck]

I just had a thought: How would George Washington think of our country now? After he's pulled from the pit and all.

I've been wondering this about all of the Founding Fathers, really. I could imagine them getting together after being rescued and discussing how America turned out.

Perhaps something for the third installment?

[John Chris]

If I may make a suggestion for music to play during the invasion of Heaven, I would like to suggest 'Deliver Us' (first half), 'Playing with the Big Boys' and 'The Plagues' from the Prince of Egypt soundtrack. The sheer level of irony that I experienced when reading and listening at the same time...I can't help but think they actually enhanced the awesomeness of the chapters, but your mileage may vary.

BTW, this gave me an idea: I've started rewriting the lyrics to "Deliver Us" to reflect how betrayed humanity felt after the Message. I wonder if other songs that were normally pro-Heaven could get similar treatment. I'd be highly amused if someone tackled Handel's Hallelujah chorus in a most suitable and awesome way.

[Bayonet]

I just had a thought: How would George Washington think of our country now? After he's pulled from the pit and all.

I've been wondering this about all of the Founding Fathers, really. I could imagine them getting together after being rescued and discussing how America turned out.

I suspect that they'd really regret that you can't get drunk in Hell.

No matter which side of the Political Line (Or perhaps more correctly, which point of the star) you occupy, it's gotta be screwed up from our per opinion of the FF's perspective.

[Edward Yee]

With all irony, I think Thomas Jefferson would be horrified that it took a standing army to save him and his fellows, as opposed to a band of volunteer militia, or that guns (both small arms and artillery) were not enough, with no appreciation whatsoever of the necessary industry behind them... *cough cough*

[Scorpion]

If I may make a suggestion for music to play during the invasion of Heaven, I would like to suggest 'Deliver Us' (first half), 'Playing with the Big Boys' and 'The Plagues' from the Prince of Egypt soundtrack. The sheer level of irony that I experienced when reading and listening at the same time...I can't help but think they actually enhanced the awesomeness of the chapters, but your mileage may vary.

How about Dio's "Last In Line"?

WE DON'T COME ALONE
WE ARE FIRE
WE ARE STONE!!!

And somewhere, an angel just crapped himself...

[JBG]

I just had a thought: How would George Washington think of our country now? After he's pulled from the pit and all.

I've been wondering this about all of the Founding Fathers, really. I could imagine them getting together after being rescued and discussing how America turned out.

I suspect that they'd really regret that you can't get drunk in Hell.

No matter which side of the Political Line (Or perhaps more correctly, which point of the star) you occupy, it's gotta be screwed up from our per opinion of the FF's perspective.

Somehow I think that you are right Dennis. A lot of old timers also may be regretting that fact once they get together to chew the fat!

If I may make a suggestion for music to play during the invasion of Heaven, I would like to suggest 'Deliver Us' (first half), 'Playing with the Big Boys' and 'The Plagues' from the Prince of Egypt soundtrack. The sheer level of irony that I experienced when reading and listening at the same time...I can't help but think they actually enhanced the awesomeness of the chapters, but your mileage may vary.

How about Dio's "Last In Line"?

WE DON'T COME ALONE
WE ARE FIRE
WE ARE STONE!!!

And somewhere, an angel just crapped himself...

Is that Ronnie James Dio, one time guitarist for Black Sabbath?

[Scorpion]

How about Dio's "Last In Line"?

WE DON'T COME ALONE
WE ARE FIRE
WE ARE STONE!!!

And somewhere, an angel just crapped himself...

Is that Ronnie James Dio, one time guitarist for Black Sabbath?

Ronnie James Dio, the lead singer of Rainbow, Black Sabbath (for 2 albums, mind you!) and his own band, aptly named Dio.

(Yes, we're talking about the same person. Geez, he 65+ and he still tours and rocks out. I wanna age like him...)

[FedRebel]

I just had a thought: How would George Washington think of our country now? After he's pulled from the pit and all.

I've been wondering this about all of the Founding Fathers, really. I could imagine them getting together after being rescued and discussing how America turned out.

In a word their feelings would be "mixed"

On the surface they'd be proud that America has prospered so well and they'd find it humorous that Britain is a (lack of a better term) "junior" ally (in the sense that Britain generally follows America's lead)

Digging a little deeper to varying extents they'd be appalled at the unrecognizable monster that evolved from their creation and the misinterpretations made to some of their words that have spun out of control

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'm wondering if the FF's might not come together to form some sort of political consultancy think-tank which contracts out for legal opinions and does live satellite feeds for the sunday morning political talk shows.

[Baughn]

They'd be wrong, though. Whatever their intentions for how the law should work, it's not how it actually works now, and as usual it'd take years at best to get up to date.

The talk show idea works better. Anyone can have opinions, let's just hope theirs don't turn out to be unpopular.

Hm, there's going to be a lot of people trying to get their attention for one reason or another. I'd like to try convincing them that Futarchy is worth a shot, for example; it'd be a lot easier than convincing the incumbents.

[Simon_Jester]

As I understand it, futarchy is based heavily on prediction markets; in hindsight and the light of the recent stock market-induced financial crisis, I don't think I'd trust a political commentator who advocated it.

I think it would be great for the Founding Fathers to form a think tank or a talk show and start telling people what they think. Not because they'd be giving good advice, but because they'd give so much self-evidently bad advice. Advice that would seem bad to everyone, including the whacked-out types who worship the ground they walked on in real life.

Think about it. The fastest way to destroy the Cult of Lee in the Salvation War setting is to watch the guy on maneuvers in a modern army. Likewise, the fastest way to destroy the Cult of Jefferson is to watch him on TV floundering around in incomprehension at how much civilization has changed in the past two centuries.

[Baughn]

The stock market problems certainly suggest that prediction markets aren't, in themselves, good enough; you need some kind of regulation to avoid extremes, and most importantly to avoid creating situations where investors can't understand the state of the market.u

I don't think that in itself is enough to kibosh the idea, though. You've shown that futarchy wouldn't be perfect; certainly, yes. Does that mean it'd be worse than what we've got now? And even if it is, maybe we could still create something better than both by modifying it to avoid those failure states.

It's worth a shot, that's all. The inefficiencies in current systems of government are so large, we should be willing to try quite a lot of systems on small scales to see what works.

[John Chris]

Alright. Here's my mockup of the Deliver Us song. Feel free to critique and/or bomb it and/or suggest improvements.

Rage.
Fury.
Betrayal.
Vengence. Onwards!

Rage and burn, Fury!
Reveal, Betrayal!
And we'll seek, Vengance. Onwards!

You sent us the Message from your Throne
And you thought you could make us bow once more
Elohim, Lord on high,
We will make you hear our cry!
We warn you now,
You're going down!

(Note: "Lord on high" is to be in a sarcastic tone and/or double entendre.)

Chorus:
Deliver Us!
You promised much
Deliver Us!
You broke our trust
Our Covenent be forever damned
Deliver Us!
The heaven you promised us
Or Deliver Us, on a pike your head!

For centuries we believed your lies
For centuries we feared your wrath
There is nothing left to pray
but the fury of the day
We set our armies against you
So shall we say, Deliver Us!

Chorus:
Deliver Us!
Heed our words
Deliver Us!
Or be swept aside
These years of tyranny
Will no longer stand.
Deliver Us!
The land you promised us
Or Deliver Us!
Your body cold and
Deliver us the Kingdom of God!

I didn't do the rest because it's never as awesome/catchy to me.

[Scorpion]

Alright. Here's my mockup of the Deliver Us song. Feel free to critique and/or bomb it and/or suggest improvements.

Rage.
Fury.
Betrayal.
Vengence. Onwards!

Rage and burn, Fury!
Reveal, Betrayal!
And we'll seek, Vengance. Onwards!

You sent us the Message from your Throne
And you thought you could make us bow once more
Elohim, Lord on high,
We will make you hear our cry!
We warn you now,
You're going down!

(Note: "Lord on high" is to be in a sarcastic tone and/or double entendre.)

Chorus:
Deliver Us!
You promised much
Deliver Us!
You broke our trust
Our Covenent be forever damned
Deliver Us!
The heaven you promised us
Or Deliver Us, on a pike your head!

For centuries we believed your lies
For centuries we feared your wrath
There is nothing left to pray
but the fury of the day
We set our armies against you
So shall we say, Deliver Us!

Chorus:
Deliver Us!
Heed our words
Deliver Us!
Or be swept aside
These years of tyranny
Will no longer stand.
Deliver Us!
The land you promised us
Or Deliver Us!
Your body cold and
Deliver us the Kingdom of God!

I didn't do the rest because it's never as awesome/catchy to me.

Well, to be honest, it doesn't seem to be a song written during the invasion of heaven by the ones who did it. If that wasn't your intention to begin with, please disregard my post. It's to well thought out and not dirty enough. It doesn't have that "barracks" feel like classics such as "Hitler has only got one ball" or "Blood upon the risers". It seems like something an artist did after the fact.

Lemme see if I can whip up something...

[JBG]

Alright. Here's my mockup of the Deliver Us song. Feel free to critique and/or bomb it and/or suggest improvements.

....

Well, to be honest, it doesn't seem to be a song written during the invasion of heaven by the ones who did it. If that wasn't your intention to begin with, please disregard my post. It's to well thought out and not dirty enough. It doesn't have that "barracks" feel like classics such as "Hitler has only got one ball" or "Blood upon the risers". It seems like something an artist did after the fact.

Lemme see if I can whip up something...

Is that an intentional pun?

And yes, Dio is/was a singer not a guitarist. My bad. He fronted Sabbath when they last came to Australia.

[Scorpion]

Is that an intentional pun?

I'm sorry, but you lost me there...

[CaptainChewbacca]

Is that an intentional pun?

I'm sorry, but you lost me there...

Lemme -> Lemuel.