Doctor Who "Vampires of Venice" (Spoilers)

[Plekhanov]

So, is there a BBC-mandated minority quota or are there actually historical examples of Africans working in the Venetian Armory as shipbuilders?

I bawked at that as well ,especially as he seemed relatively well off. But I have NO clue how blacks were during 1580 Venice so who knows.

Struck me as a bit off too, but I guess if pushed they can allways claim that it's Dr WHo, there's cracks in space time messing around with stuff, maybe some enlightened ideas came through and re-wrote time a little.

Yes only cracks in space time could possibly explain a Moor in a 16th century Mediterranean port such as Venice

[mr friendly guy]

Moors in venice? Perish the thought. I guess its the Doctor's actions which inspired Shakespeare to write this story about a black guy in Venice. After all it must be the BBC minority quota which forced them to show a moor in Venice. Hey maybe the same minority quota was around forcing Shakespeare to do the same thing.

What's next guys? You will be telling me its political correctness gone mad when we suggest that the heroes in the Last Airbender are really Inuits and Asians instead of white people.

[Crazedwraith]

Just saw it. Pretty mediocre. Especially the episode went on. The prince dude exploding was a bit out of nowwhere. Though I did like that it was a 'yer mum!' joke that set him off. Even Rory clearly thought it was lame as he said it.

So the strengths were pretty much the dynamic between The Doctor/Amy/Rory. Rehash of Doctor/Rose/Mickey? Mayhaps but thus far not nearly as annoying.

I Felt the question for a question scene was quite good. It's nice to see The Doctor converse with someone on an equal level. Though I didn't figure out how the Doctor was supposed to have gotten in the throne room again.

[2000AD]

Struck me as a bit off too, but I guess if pushed they can allways claim that it's Dr WHo, there's cracks in space time messing around with stuff, maybe some enlightened ideas came through and re-wrote time a little.

Yes only cracks in space time could possibly explain a Moor in a 16th century Mediterranean port such as Venice

Well I've never studied Venetian history, the only thing I remember from GSCE history that seems relevant is that the slave trade was still going strong in the 16th century and that there was plenty of religious and racial persecution, so I was under the assumption that unless you were a visitng foriegn dignitory of some sort, being a black person in Europe a few hundred years ago meant you'd have a lot of people making your life a living hell.
It's not that there's a black person in Venice that struck me as off, it's that there's a black person being treated equally and having their child admitted into a special school run by the noble classes that struck me as being out for the time period.
But if 16th century Venice had better racial equality and integration than a buttload of present day cultures feel free to chew me out.

[Gramzamber]

I'm not too familiar with Venetian history either, but that "school" accepting the girl is irrelevant, since aliens don't care what skin pigment we have.
If they make it known that they'll accept girls of any race, then that shipwright guy is going to give it a chance at least.

[Plekhanov]

Struck me as a bit off too, but I guess if pushed they can allways claim that it's Dr WHo, there's cracks in space time messing around with stuff, maybe some enlightened ideas came through and re-wrote time a little.

Yes only cracks in space time could possibly explain a Moor in a 16th century Mediterranean port such as Venice

Well I've never studied Venetian history, the only thing I remember from GSCE history that seems relevant is that the slave trade was still going strong in the 16th century and that there was plenty of religious and racial persecution, so I was under the assumption that unless you were a visitng foriegn dignitory of some sort, being a black person in Europe a few hundred years ago meant you'd have a lot of people making your life a living hell.
It's not that there's a black person in Venice that struck me as off, it's that there's a black person being treated equally and having their child admitted into a special school run by the noble classes that struck me as being out for the time period.
But if 16th century Venice had better racial equality and integration than a buttload of present day cultures feel free to chew me out.

As has already been pointed out a few times "Othello, the Moor of Venice" a not exactly unknown play is set in the same time period and features a non-white guy (there's debate as to whether he's Arabic or Black African) as its protagonist, he is not merely as a boat builder but a top ranking military officer.

If a non-white guy in 16th century Venice is good enough for to be the protagonist in what generally rated as one of the best plays of arguably the greatest playwright of all time how is a non-white guy in 16th century Venice not good enough to be a supporting character in a middling episode of Doctor Who?

As for our boat builder being "treated equally" what evidence do you have for that? In the short program we barely see him interact with people who aren't aliens or in the pay of aliens. Just because their were no scenes of Venetians in white hoods burning crosses outside his house that doesn't mean he was treated completely equally.

[Ilya Muromets]

For all of you people wondering about the plausibility of a black man in 16th century Venice who's apparently well-off, do keep in mind that this is 1580. This was before the African slave trade really reached its peak (from the 17th to 18th centuries), and that before that trade lines between West Africa and Europe had been open for quite a while. True, there were records of black slaves in europe since the early 1500s, but it wasn't as common as it would later become. Black people in those times haven't yet become to be widely thought of only as sub-human slave labor, and quite a number of traders were quite willing to do business with them. In fact, some of the early black slaves in those eras actually were sold by African traders themselves. further ,there actually were a number of black people (mostly tradesmen and their families) living in Europe at that time (there's even records that some black African traders were residing in London).

Of course, there weren't that many of them. And we never see more than that one guy and his daughter here, so it's not like they're going overboard here. The guy's also, like many of you have mentioned, a boat builder. Boat-building and intercontinental trade basically go hand-in-hand.

EDIT: Expanded a bit on the first paragraph.

[Revy]

Decent enough episode. I liked the look of it more than anything else - but then anything other than London is a huge improvement IMO. The Doctor climbing up a spire to stop some end-of-days alien doomsday machine is kinda old, I mean I can recall two instances where Ten did that off the top of my head. I did like that he just had to flip a switch to turn it off, though.

Also thought it was a bit odd when the alien fish-queen lady started taking her clothes off at the end - she's not actually wearing any clothes, they're meant to be a mental projection or something. Minor niggle, but eh. And Amy - sheesh. She keeps almost turning into an alien. If this keeps up it'll be a wonder if she has any human left in her by the end of the season.

More on the cracks. I'm glad for the fish lady's speech on them, because she confirmed that some of them open up to other worlds and places, whilst still others open up into nothingness. We knew that already, but before it seemed like a contradiction, whereas now they've clearly admitted that the cracks do both. I just had a thought - anyone think the cracks are going to get so bad at one point that the Doctor and Amy have to track down Prisoner Zero and bust him out of jail to find out what he knows about them? Kind of a reversal from helping his captors recapture him in the first episode.

Any idea's on what causes them? I have a horrible feeling it might end up being the Daleks, and I really don't want to have the Daleks be the season finale villains again. Maybe it's the result of the Master, trapped in the time lock, coming up with a way to free himself and the Time Lords from inside. I can just imagine Gallifrey showing up at the focal point and the Master announcing himself as the new President, having offed Rassilon. Nah, they wouldn't do that.

[Zac Naloen]

They lampshaded returning the time lords a couple of episodes ago didn't they?


The Doctor had a brief moment of smileyness after beating the Angels and when amy asked whats up he said "You can rewrite time"

[Srelex]

What about the Eternals? I think they've been mentioned at some point.

[Eternal_Freedom]

The fact that the Doctor said "you can re write time" strikes me as significant. All fo a sudden history is no longer quite as certain as the Doctor thought. And, hell, thats probably a good thing. He clearly thought it wasnt a nightmare "oh shit" like Ten did after he tried changing history

[TC Pilot]

The fact that the Doctor said "you can re write time" strikes me as significant. All fo a sudden history is no longer quite as certain as the Doctor thought. And, hell, thats probably a good thing. He clearly thought it wasnt a nightmare "oh shit" like Ten did after he tried changing history

There's a difference between re-writing history and re-writing time, though. I'm pretty sure that comment was in response to Amy's "You know you're alive in the future, so you're safe" comment, if only to dispell the idea he could just dick around during one of his trademark "save the world from evil aliens" routines and come out without a scratch. In other words, it's not like that episode of Twilight Zone where a time traveller trying to snipe Hitler keeps getting interrupted by something fate keeps throwing at him.

[Revy]

Actually I think they've now given us the explanation for Amy not remembering the Daleks or history recording that Victorian giant cyberking. The cleric soldiers show us exactly how that could be.

Soldiers go into void-crack and cease to exist. Everyone else except time travellers forget that they ever existed. Time travellers still remember.

Amy doesn't remember the Dalek invasion, but the Doctor does. That suggests that before Amy became a companion and started travelling in time with the Doctor, the Daleks responsible for stealing the Earth (possibly Davros or Dalek Caan who rescued Davros) got swallowed by a crack and erased from existence. Thus their existence and actions are forgotten by everyone except time travellers such as the Doctor. Amy, who was not yet a time traveller, does not remember them for the exact same reason that those Clerics did not remember their fellow soldiers after they got erased.

As far as we can tell, people being erased by the cracks does not alter history, it merely alters people's memory of history. When the Angels got swallowed it did not undo the events they caused nor bring back the people they murdered, but it would have caused any non time travellers to forget that they ever existed (at least those particular Angels, though not every Angel to ever exist was present during this episode). So the Earth still got stolen, but the majority of humanity no longer remembers. If the Doctor asked Martha or Jack, they would remember, but Amy doesn't because she's new to the time travel gig.

[2000AD]

As for our boat builder being "treated equally" what evidence do you have for that? In the short program we barely see him interact with people who aren't aliens or in the pay of aliens. Just because their were no scenes of Venetians in white hoods burning crosses outside his house that doesn't mean he was treated completely equally.

Aliens who were trying not to arouse suspicion and would thus attempt to blend in with local customs (presumably why they retained an apparently human advisor). I was under the impression that in that time period racism would be rampant, so accepting a black student into a noble school would be something that would not go down well with the locals. However as Ilya Muromets expanded on in the post immeadiatly following yours, my assumptions based on my limited knowledge of racial integration in Venice in that period are apparently incorrect, so I readily concede the argument.

[Ilya Muromets]

I was under the impression that in that time period racism would be rampant, so accepting a black student into a noble school would be something that would not go down well with the locals. However as Ilya Muromets expanded on in the post immeadiatly following yours, my assumptions based on my limited knowledge of racial integration in Venice in that period are apparently incorrect, so I readily concede the argument.

Oh, make no mistake, racism was rampant. However, its focus was more on groups large enough to really gather notice. At that period, the most intense racism would have been directed at Jewish communities. Black people by then would have been considered somewhat exotic because of their rarity of presence in Europe. The few who were there, especially in trade towns like Venice, would be tradesmen. Black tradesmen who managed to set themselves up comfortably would've been rich, or at least well-to-do enough to do business with. Coupled with the misnomer of them being thought of as "Moors" (who were seen as experts on medicine and the sciences), black people were relatively well-treated and thought of as rich people before the slave trade really started to massively expand in the 17th century.

[NecronLord]

For all of you people wondering about the plausibility of a black man in 16th century Venice who's apparently well-off, do keep in mind that this is 1580. This was before the African slave trade really reached its peak (from the 17th to 18th centuries), and that before that trade lines between West Africa and Europe had been open for quite a while. True, there were records of black slaves in europe since the early 1500s, but it wasn't as common as it would later become. Black people in those times haven't yet become to be widely thought of only as sub-human slave labor, and quite a number of traders were quite willing to do business with them. In fact, some of the early black slaves in those eras actually were sold by African traders themselves. further ,there actually were a number of black people (mostly tradesmen and their families) living in Europe at that time (there's even records that some black African traders were residing in London).

Of course, there weren't that many of them. And we never see more than that one guy and his daughter here, so it's not like they're going overboard here. The guy's also, like many of you have mentioned, a boat builder. Boat-building and intercontinental trade basically go hand-in-hand.

EDIT: Expanded a bit on the first paragraph.

To elaborate; slavery as a 'Black' phenomenon and widespread denigration of africans is a later development - they were still enslaving white (including English, German, etc) indentures widely in the colonies and the conditions were at this time much the same. Not to say he'd be seen as normal, but he'd not be forbidden from pursuing a trade in Venice.

Though if he went around in that T-shirt for too long he might be.

It is instructive to compare and contrast Shakespere's two Venetian plays (it's speculated that he may have lived in Venice) Othello, and Merchant of Venice - the racism experienced by Shylock is far more extreme and ingrained in the play's treatment. Though some of that is likely to do with Othello being able to hack men in half.

[TC Pilot]

Personally, the problem I had with the shipbuilder and his daughter wasn't that they were actually in Venice, but that they honestly regarded themselves as Venetians. I can buy a African being tolerated in the 16th Century, but I don't really buy them being accepted as one of their own.

[Teebs]

Personally, the problem I had with the shipbuilder and his daughter wasn't that they were actually in Venice, but that they honestly regarded themselves as Venetians. I can buy a African being tolerated in the 16th Century, but I don't really buy them being accepted as one of their own.

I'm pretty sure the BBC has a policy of colour-blind casting for most cases, so it's quite possible that none of this (historic realism or quotas) was seen as at all relevant and the man was just reckoned to be the best actor to apply for the job.

[TC Pilot]

Personally, it's no more SoD-breaking than no one reacting to Amy or Rory's clothes. It's just a bit odd, is all.

[Gemini-Preserver]

In regards of the Sonic Screwdriver I cant recall it ever having been able to undo physical bolts.
Also just as the barrels of explosives go up. 'This Is Sparta!..Sorry We Are Venusian!'

[Big Orange]

So, is there a BBC-mandated minority quota or are there actually historical examples of Africans working in the Venetian Armory as shipbuilders?

The presence of black people in 16th century Venice has been adequately explained enough in this thread already and the unmourned Robin Hood was much more guilty of patronizing, unrealistic tokenism.

Anyway "The Vampires of Venice" was enjoyable and as solidly entertaining as similar stories like "The Fires of Pompeii" and "State of Decay", though it doesn't quite match up with Whithouse's other work ("School Reunion" and the Being Human series). This was certainly the best made historical episode (aside from some of the alien CGI). The best parts was at the start where the Doctor gatecrashes Rory's stag party and when he's looking at the Venician mirror when evil ladies were creeping up on him. I gave it a "4". I'm looking forward to "Amy's Choice" and Toby Jones doesn't disappoint.

Here's an online review of this episode:

[Big Orange]

Any idea's on what causes them? I have a horrible feeling it might end up being the Daleks, and I really don't want to have the Daleks be the season finale villains again. Maybe it's the result of the Master, trapped in the time lock, coming up with a way to free himself and the Time Lords from inside. I can just imagine Gallifrey showing up at the focal point and the Master announcing himself as the new President, having offed Rassilon. Nah, they wouldn't do that.

The Time Lords making another attempt to escape the Time War and making the Crack is a popular theory, but sorry to break this to you:
Spoiler

but Nicholas Briggs (voice actor for the Daleks) could turn up in the final according to IMDb and for better or worse we've got River Song again.

Actually I think they've now given us the explanation for Amy not remembering the Daleks or history recording that Victorian giant cyberking. The cleric soldiers show us exactly how that could be.

Soldiers go into void-crack and cease to exist. Everyone else except time travellers forget that they ever existed. Time travellers still remember.

Amy doesn't remember the Dalek invasion, but the Doctor does. That suggests that before Amy became a companion and started travelling in time with the Doctor, the Daleks responsible for stealing the Earth (possibly Davros or Dalek Caan who rescued Davros) got swallowed by a crack and erased from existence. Thus their existence and actions are forgotten by everyone except time travellers such as the Doctor. Amy, who was not yet a time traveller, does not remember them for the exact same reason that those Clerics did not remember their fellow soldiers after they got erased.

I wouldn't say the Cyberking, Neo-Dalek Empire, and Leadworth's ducks were necessarily nullified altogether like those unfortunate clerics, maybe the fractures of the Crack split them off from the Prime timeline that the Doctor, Amy, Leadworth, and the TARDIS occupy? Either way the Crack is supposedly sourced from some major detonation out there in the Universe and it's linked to some Bad Wolf-esque plot McGuffin (the Pandorica) and defeating it could undo some of the continuity damage.

[Gramzamber]

There are theories going around that the season finale will involve a whole lot of different antagonists including Daleks, Cybusmen, original Cybermen, and so on.
I can just see them making it a clusterfuck of bad guys, like "The Stolen Earth" and "Journey's End" were a clusterfuck of the Doctor's companions and allies. Throw in the Time Lords too! Let's make it a complete circus of evil!

[NecronLord]

Spoiler

but Nicholas Briggs (voice actor for the Daleks) could turn up in the final according to IMDb and for better or worse we've got River Song again.

Spoiler

Nick Briggs is among other things, also the voice of the cybermen, designer of the voice effects for both and an extremely talented writer. Unless his role is credited as one thing or another (though obviously not primary writer, he could have a writing credit conceivably, so I mention it) He has played many aliens in Who, and could do many more. The cybusman, if it speaks, will probably be Nick Briggs, unless it's got its emotions back as per 'It's unlucky for him to see me before the night of the wedding' so - I wouldn't worry yet.

[GuppyShark]

So, is there a BBC-mandated minority quota or are there actually historical examples of Africans working in the Venetian Armory as shipbuilders?

I bawked at that as well ,especially as he seemed relatively well off. But I have NO clue how blacks were during 1580 Venice so who knows.

A certain Mr Shakespeare suggested it was possible for a black man to be a general in the Venetian Army a mere 23 years later.

That answers my question.

"Minority quota" - fuck you! Are you even trying to suggest that minorities are anywhere near fairly represented on British TV?

No. That would be a pretty bizarre thing for an Australian who doesn't watch British TV to claim. But you know, take it personally.