Eldar technology in light of refugee status

[Stravo]

I've been reading more fluff over the weekend - got my hands on some Eldar codex stuff and started looking at the rules that come with the Assault on Black Reach kit and it made me consider the state of Eldar technology. They are obviously fashioned to be the most technologically advanced of the mainstream races (Necron not withstanding) yet I feel that perhaps while more advanced it is not light years beyond Imperium tech.

I'm not going to go into extreme detail because I don't have the materials in question to do so but many of the Eldar weapons for example have similar damage ratings compared to human tech and the devil really comes into play with the details of these weapons. The main advantage of Eldar weapons technology is that it is the next logical step in the development of tech the humans already have. For example the plasma weapons that humans have get the disadvantage of "gets hot" which essentially means these cannons can blow up in your face. The Eldar plasma weapons are super efficient and thus have no chance of blowing up when used. The same with the laser tech. Human laser tech seems to be only slighlty behind what Eldar can do with Prism technology. In other words anything the humans can do the Eldar do a little better, smaller and more efficiently.

However that begs the question. The Eldar were millions of years more advanced than humanity. Shouldn't they be so astoudingly ahead of the Imperium that any encounter with them means death?

If you think about it however maybe not. The Eldar that are currently active are essentially refugees from their own empire. In Galactica terms they are a rag tag fleet which has with them whatever tech they would normally think they needed. I don't think these Eldar thought they needed to (or could) take the bleeding edge of their weapons technology with them.

In essence the Eldar are fighting with weapons that could be considered the equivalent of a farmer's shotgun or perhaps even their version of National Guard type equipment - older stuff that still works and is good for reservists and other part time soldiers or militia but still generations behind their standard .

When the Imperium of Man is fighting the Eldar they are facing the Eldar version of their ready militia but the true Eldar military, the really dangerous, crazy advanced stuff was left behind when the Craftworlds fled.

I could be completely off on this but does anyone have a better understanding of how Eldar stuff stacks up against Imperium of Man (and other factions') gear because while some of the fluff proposes some pretty nifty ideas for weapon tech I don't see anything that makes me think - here's a race who's had a million year head start on us.

BTW I know game balance comes into play I'm merely wondering about this on a purely fluff level.

[Simon_Jester]

Two other possibilities that come to mind:

-The Eldar hit a plateau of technology that they couldn't cross, and remained technically stagnant for a long time. In 40k this is relatively plausible. Experiments with things like nanotech and artificial intelligence in 40k are liable to go horribly wrong; Chaos and the Necrons both love to interfere with it. Thus, the Eldar reached a technological peak when they were incrementally advanced over humanity's best (the "Dark Age of Technology" c. 21000-24000 AD), and then stuck there. Further research either led to disasters great enough to deter repeat attempts, or proved to be impractically expensive and was abandoned.

-Eldar technology "really is" vastly better than human tech in the fluff, but this advantage is reduced for gameplay purposes on the tabletop, just as the biological advantage of Space Marines over normal human soldiers is.

That tends to cause feedback effects on the fluff in turn: think about how the power of a Space Marine tends to vary depending on whether the story is written from a Space Marine perspective or an Imperial Guard perspective. Even when both books are written by the same author (say, Brothers of the Snake and the Gaunt's Ghosts novels), we see the Marines being far more effective in their own stories than in the Guard's stories.

[stormthebeaches]

The current Eldar got the jeeps and AK47's of the once mighty Eldar empire. The really advanced stuff was lost in the fall.

[Serafina]

Well, you are of course right that Eldar tech was once MUCH better. Just look at the Blackstone Fortresses and other stuff.

Eldar technology is mostly better in several fields:
-Miniturization. It's not necessarly always better than IoM-tech (the IoM can build digiweapons after all) but much more widespread.
-Anti-gravity. This is probably related to the miniturizaion - their anti-grav generators are much smaller and propably more efficient, too. The largest true anti-grav vehicle the IoM has is the Land Speeder, while the largest anti-grav tank of the Eldar is a superheavy vehicle capable of one-shoting warhound titans.
-Warp technology. The Eldar are capable or making far better (precision/range) warp-based weaponry. IoM warpweapons are mostly warheads/grenades that create an unpredicatable warprift. Eldar weapons can create such rifts over a long distance and close it when it has done it's job, or even focus it into a beam.
-Psionic crafting. Something like spirit stones or rune armor is just beyond IoM-technology.

With most other technologies, the IoM has equipment of equal performance:
-Archeotech laspistols, Hot-Shot lasguns/hellguns and other laser technolgies are arguably better than many Eldar lasweapon.
-Bolters are about as good as Shuriken weapons - Shuriken weapons are better against light or medium armor and have a better RoF and magazine capacity, but suffer from lower range and lack brute force to bring down larger enemies.
-Artisan plasma weapons of the IoM do not really suffer from overheating and are about as stable as Eldar plasmatech. They are incredibly rare, but there might actually be a greater number of them as of eldar plasmaweapons (by virtue of the IoM being far larger).

Again, IoM-tech is not BAD - it's just disorganized. The Imperial Guard is equipped with weapons, armor and equipment that can be produced pretty much everywhere. It's like equipming modern soldiers with 19th century rifles because every small town can build large numbers of them. Then you have several towns that have more advanced factories and guard the technology closely - but many factories are partially broken and their products suffer from that. Only a few factories have people that can repari them - producing sought-after artifacts. Modern weapons would still be around, but much rarer.
That's how 40K-technology works - the lasgun is the 10th century rifle, a bolter would be the less-than ideal modern weapon and an archeotech lasgun would be the flawless modern weapon.

If that would not be the case, Guardsmen would run around with archeotech lasguns that can punch trough servo armor, have Conversion beams as support weapons and would be armored with Artificer armor. Their gloves could fit tiny melta weapons with the same firepower as current ones and they would be equipped with plasma and haywire grenades.
Oh, and everyone would have a forcefield

The IoM HAS all these things, but they are incapable of building enough of them.
The Eldar don't have that problem, since their numbers are so small.

[NecronLord]

It's important to remember that much of mankind's technology is based on the visions granted by the Machine God to his acolytes, that's why the Emperor put him on Mars. Mankind did not invent its technology base: that is how it is able to stand up to Eldar equivalents.

Well, you are of course right that Eldar tech was once MUCH better. Just look at the Blackstone Fortresses and other stuff.

Built by Vaul himself, a god to the Eldar, not the Eldar.

-Eldar technology "really is" vastly better than human tech in the fluff, but this advantage is reduced for gameplay purposes on the tabletop, just as the biological advantage of Space Marines over normal human soldiers is.

This, to a degree. We're outright told that the technologies of Guardians let alone Aspect Warriors, look like magic to the soldiers of other races, but in came, there's nothing fundamentally superior about them to the Tau or Guardsmen.

Additionally, a lot of the most advanced Eldar technology is either eschewed for spiritual reasons (true war-automata, which they believe caused the hedonistic downfall of their civilisation) or resources/time (they've not built a new webway or repaired it, though we know that it was their own design and their ancestors built it and they have a reasonable understanding of it.)

The webway is of course, their crowning achievement. Even the Emperor didn't understand it. It is outright said to be an improvement on what the Old Ones had (in terms of stability at least). Only the Necrontyr have something like it.

If that would not be the case, Guardsmen would run around with archeotech lasguns that can punch trough servo armor, have Conversion beams as support weapons and would be armored with Artificer armor. Their gloves could fit tiny melta weapons with the same firepower as current ones and they would be equipped with plasma and haywire grenades.
Oh, and everyone would have a forcefield

In other words, it'd be Rogue Trader.

[Darksider]

I've got a question regarding Eldar tech, specifically the Webway. Can the Eldar use the Webway for FTL travel to any point they want to in the 40K galaxy, or do they have to travel there via warp-travel first and set up a gateway? 'cause what with slanessh hungering for their souls and all, i'd think that the Eldar would be......hesitant to use the warp for FTL travel. Are the Eldar now limited in the places they can get to faster than light, or can they go anywhere in the galaxy that they need or want to?

[Serafina]

The webway is still pretty extensive - so they normally can reach every world they need to reach with short warp travels.
We have seen several occasions where worlds are not sufficiently connected to the webways (the Baran war is an example IIRC), which clearly indicates that they can reach such worlds anyway.

Eldar warp travel is presumably much more advanced, like most of their warp technology. Better Gellar fields are no stretch of the imagination, but we know next to nothing about eldar warp travel anyway.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Just how little did the Emperor understand the webway? He left the Great Crusade to tinker away on his own version in the bowels of the Imperial Palace. Was it something ultimately beyond his capability to understand (at least the flesh and blood version) or something he would have been able to figure out eventually on his own, or don't we really know? Horus turning and knocking on the front door, and demons using the prototype as a gateway into the the palace (thanks to Magnus I believe) seems like the kind of thing to get in the way of work on your super secret project.

[Academia Nut]

Actually, an interesting point about Eldar vs. Imperium tech is that looking at the tabletop for a general feel, it would seem that the Imperium is actually better than the Eldar with plasma technology since all Eldar plasma tech is confined to vehicles, whereas the Imperium has man portable plasma pistols and guns, while their vehicle mounted plasma weapons (except for the really huge ones) do not suffer from the Gets Hot! rules, so they are much more effective than the Eldar versions. In fact, the 4th Ed stats for the starcannon are like a weaker version of an autocannon. Obviously the tabletop rules are not entirely synched with the fluff, but it is something interesting to note.

[NecronLord]

Just how little did the Emperor understand the webway? He left the Great Crusade to tinker away on his own version in the bowels of the Imperial Palace. Was it something ultimately beyond his capability to understand (at least the flesh and blood version) or something he would have been able to figure out eventually on his own, or don't we really know? Horus turning and knocking on the front door, and demons using the prototype as a gateway into the the palace (thanks to Magnus I believe) seems like the kind of thing to get in the way of work on your super secret project.

He had an idea about working out out but...

Massive Spoiler for Thousand Sons:
Spoiler

He didn't even invent the Golden Throne that would give him access. He found it. He intended Magnus' mental powers to allow access to the Webway somehow.

I expect he probably would have got it working, but he sure as hell couldn't build one from scratch or he would have just done that.

[Serafina]

Note that it is entirely possible to access the webway without portals, given the right amount of power and skill.
We know that Arihman and several other Thousand Son sorcerers can do it (or at least could do it for a while during the 13th Black Crusade).

So yes, access to the Webway was propably within the grasp of the Emperor - after all, he was a scientist first (he created the Primarchs and Space marines, along with a lot of their weaponery and supposedly a lot of other technology over the course of several millenia).

[NecronLord]

The webway is still pretty extensive - so they normally can reach every world they need to reach with short warp travels.
We have seen several occasions where worlds are not sufficiently connected to the webways (the Baran war is an example IIRC), which clearly indicates that they can reach such worlds anyway.

Eldar warp travel is presumably much more advanced, like most of their warp technology. Better Gellar fields are no stretch of the imagination, but we know next to nothing about eldar warp travel anyway.

We know it's limited to comparatively short hops (5th ed codex Eldar), and that they don't operate ships with normal warp drives (Farseer, novel) in part due to lacking navigators, and also because they light up in the warp like some kind of demon-crack.

Conversely, Iyanden had warp drives, according to IIRC, the original Iyanden-Seige game 'Doom of the Eldar' though they decided it was a riskier option to use them than to fight the tyranids in the time available. That would make it the largest warp-capable spacecraft ever constructed, as far as we know. So on scale at least, they've got it down.

[NecronLord]

Note that it is entirely possible to access the webway without portals, given the right amount of power and skill.
We know that Arihman and several other Thousand Son sorcerers can do it (or at least could do it for a while during the 13th Black Crusade).

Magnus did that too. Forcing a hole so you and your demon buddies can get in isn't *that* impressive; it's a test of strength, not comprehension. An ape can smash its way into a car to get a banana. It sure as fuck can't design and build a car, or even operate it correctly. That's no way evidence that the Emperor or Ahriman has even a basic understanding of the fundamentals of its creation.
Spoiler

We now know he didn't make the Golden Throne, so he can't even be credited with more than learning how to operate it (some functions of it!)

[Serafina]

Well, i never said otherwise, but they clearly HAVE to be capable of warp travel and be able to do it relatively safely - otherwise the Baran War would have never happened.

[NecronLord]

I'm not sure what you're getting at re the Baran war, mind, offhand, the bit I recall is:

Just as the rangers had attested, no gate now remained open and Mauryon took instead to the Dragonship Ilethryr, Chariot of Khaine, accompanied by only a handful of his most faithful acolytes. Mauryon felt his numbers too few to risk journeying the Baran directly, and instead Ilethryr was hidden in orbit around the silver moon of Ephos. The gate to the silver moon had long been barred, but Mauryon hoped that the gatebetween Ephos and the planet below might remain open, and fortune was with him.

As predicted, the gate was closed (for none had been able to reach it from Biel-tan), but it’s structure still stood. All about it were carved runes of doom, frantic testimonies speaking of the last desperate Eldar defenders swept away by the greenskinned menace. These same runes barred the gate tight, sealed by those last brave Eldar so that the ancient webway might not be tainted by the Ork filth. Mauryon ordered that Elasthith, a seer, a steersman, be brought up and unfasten the magics which bound the gate shut. As he did so, he found many of the roads from the gate crumbled and impassable, so that there was still no direct way to Biel-tan. Yet one path remained open – the path to Baran itself, albeit by only the smallest and humblest of gates.

That doesn't actually mean they necessarily went through the warp, though they certainly have that capacity from other sources. The ship definately had the capacity to get to Baran, though. Also a "seer - a steersman" interests me; suggestive, to me, of a navigator-equivalent, though presumably less powerful (though also, if that's what it is, probably a path any craftworlder could follow!)

[Serafina]

I am working from memory here and might mix up the names, but i am trying to say this:

There are areas in space where only small (or no) webway portals exist. IIRC, this was the case during the Baran War.
In such cases, strike forces might be employed from orbit via aircraft rather than using the webway.

Mind you, this was only meant as an example for eldar warp travel, since it's pretty obvious that they do it from time to time.

[Darksider]

and also because they light up in the warp like some kind of demon-crack.

This is what I was getting at. I knew the Eldar had some kind of warp technology, but I was asking if they couldn't use it because traveling into the warp would get Slanesh on their asses like flies on shit. The bit about them not having navigators is interesting. Wouldn't the psychic powers of a farseer or other Eldar Psyker be powerful enough to navigate the warp, or is it a specific skillset that has to be engineered?

[loomer]

Actually, an interesting point about Eldar vs. Imperium tech is that looking at the tabletop for a general feel, it would seem that the Imperium is actually better than the Eldar with plasma technology since all Eldar plasma tech is confined to vehicles, whereas the Imperium has man portable plasma pistols and guns, while their vehicle mounted plasma weapons (except for the really huge ones) do not suffer from the Gets Hot! rules, so they are much more effective than the Eldar versions. In fact, the 4th Ed stats for the starcannon are like a weaker version of an autocannon. Obviously the tabletop rules are not entirely synched with the fluff, but it is something interesting to note.

That doesn't really imply better, at least not the infantry level plasma weapons. That suggests more of a 'It melted Jim? Fuck it, there's like thirteen billion more guys from his hive alone, who cares?" attitude.

[Imperial Overlord]

Eldar tech is really, really good. Table top rules can be horribly misleading. Table top the Avatar of Khaine is worth about as much as a light vehicle. In universe, the Avatar can kill his way through an army just because it's in his way and he's in a rush to get from point A to do important business at point B and he's not going to waste time going around about way just because there's an Ork horde in his path.

This is what I was getting at. I knew the Eldar had some kind of warp technology, but I was asking if they couldn't use it because traveling into the warp would get Slanesh on their asses like flies on shit.

That's exactly what happens. It's not an automatic death sentence, but crossing the warp in a space ship is much more dangerous for Eldar than for humans.

The bit about them not having navigators is interesting. Wouldn't the psychic powers of a farseer or other Eldar Psyker be powerful enough to navigate the warp, or is it a specific skillset that has to be engineered?

There are human psykers who can navigate through the warp. Chaos sorcerers, psykers with talents in that particular area, and Librarians have all done it but none of them are equal to Navigators.

[Meest]

What about resources? Can it be that they just can't divert or afford to spend resources on R&D?

[adam_grif]

Given the fluff - gameplay discrepancies, how does the Tau empire stack up against the other players, technologically?

I'm aware they're largely hated around here, but they're my favorite race (my experience with 40k comes from Dawn of War...)

[Srelex]

Given the fluff - gameplay discrepancies, how does the Tau empire stack up against the other players, technologically?

I'm aware they're largely hated around here, but they're my favorite race (my experience with 40k comes from Dawn of War...)

It depends. In space, the Tau aren't much to write home about, and more often than not get whupped by the Imperium. Although some examples of their tech are outclassed by their Imperial versions, the Tau are nonetheless more standardized, and their stuff tends to be more stable. So while the actual level of their tech isn't necesserily that far ahead, does tend to be more mass-produced.

Does that help?

[adam_grif]

I suppose.

How does, say, a pulse rifle stack up against a bolter or lasgun? How does a hammerhead perform compared with a Lemun Russ or Predator?

Conceptually, I like the Tau because they seem to be one of the few races making active progress in tech. But I know that they'll never get anything game-changing, due to grimdark.

However that begs the question. The Eldar were millions of years more advanced than humanity. Shouldn't they be so astoudingly ahead of the Imperium that any encounter with them means death?

It doesn't beg the question, it raises the question.

[Srelex]

I suppose.

How does, say, a pulse rifle stack up against a bolter or lasgun? How does a hammerhead perform compared with a Lemun Russ or Predator?

Conceptually, I like the Tau because they seem to be one of the few races making active progress in tech. But I know that they'll never get anything game-changing, due to grimdark.

Tau weapons, obviously, tend to have longer range--Connor will likely be able to answer this in greater detail than I, but a pulse rifle is obviously closer to a lasgun than a bolter, and a Hammerhead obviously is more mobile than a Russ, being almost like a VTOL, and can hit harder, but as far as I know it's not as rugged or tough. If I'm overly generalizing here, people can feel free to correct me, but that is the general gist as far as I can gather.

Anyway, while I guess I can understand why 40k purists may not like the Tau, I do find a lot of their designs appealing, being a sucker for smooth future-Apple design aesthetic.

[PainRack]

Eldar tech is really, really good. Table top rules can be horribly misleading. Table top the Avatar of Khaine is worth about as much as a light vehicle. In universe, the Avatar can kill his way through an army just because it's in his way and he's in a rush to get from point A to do important business at point B and he's not going to waste time going around about way just because there's an Ork horde in his path.

Until he meets a hero character. Then he's going down.:D:D:D

There are human psykers who can navigate through the warp. Chaos sorcerers, psykers with talents in that particular area, and Librarians have all done it but none of them are equal to Navigators.

One should note that the Navigators are........ special. Warp navigation is possible through technical means, however, only the Navigator subclass allows the Imperium the far flung warp travel capabilities among the normal powers. It has been hinted before that Chaos fleet aren't as capable of long range warp travel as the Imperium due to the lack of the Astronomican and the navigators.

I think its best to simply attribute this to the Emperor blessing, the power of the Astronomican and how merging the Navigator psychic power with the Emperor allows them to align with the Astronomican, giving them the edge.