Likelihood of a Second Galactic Empire?

[The Romulan Republic]

It's cropped up in the sources at least three times that I've seen so far. The first is the quote from Nom Anor already provided, and considering he was knee-deep in bringing down the Empire since at least as far back as Crimson Empire, he's something of an expert. Less authoritative is the assessment made by Captain Vana Dorja, an Imperial officer, in Destiny's Way, that the Empire would have crushed the Vong as soon as they invaded, prompting Han to rant about how they'd have built some stupid superweapon, the "Nostril of Palpatine," that would have blown up in their faces. Lastly, there's Betrayal, where a relatively young Intelligence officer flat-out says to Wedge Antilles' face that the old Rebels shouldn't be so smug and self-righteous because the Empire would have "kicked their teeth in" or something like that.

Two of those sound like completely unreliable and unsubstantiated opinion from Imperial partisans. Only the one from Nom Anor sounds like it might be worth shit.

Also, the ability to kick an enemy's ass is not the only standard by which the quality of a government is measured. Its important certainly, but so is the regard a government holds for the rights of its citizens.

[Norade]

It's cropped up in the sources at least three times that I've seen so far. The first is the quote from Nom Anor already provided, and considering he was knee-deep in bringing down the Empire since at least as far back as Crimson Empire, he's something of an expert. Less authoritative is the assessment made by Captain Vana Dorja, an Imperial officer, in Destiny's Way, that the Empire would have crushed the Vong as soon as they invaded, prompting Han to rant about how they'd have built some stupid superweapon, the "Nostril of Palpatine," that would have blown up in their faces. Lastly, there's Betrayal, where a relatively young Intelligence officer flat-out says to Wedge Antilles' face that the old Rebels shouldn't be so smug and self-righteous because the Empire would have "kicked their teeth in" or something like that.

Two of those sound like completely unreliable and unsubstantiated opinion from Imperial partisans. Only the one from Nom Anor sounds like it might be worth shit.

Also, the ability to kick an enemy's ass is not the only standard by which the quality of a government is measured. Its important certainly, but so is the regard a government holds for the rights of its citizens.

Are governments not also judged by how they respond to internal and external threats?

[Patroklos]

Also, the ability to kick an enemy's ass is not the only standard by which the quality of a government is measured. Its important certainly, but so is the regard a government holds for the rights of its citizens.

Certainly, and its not like the Rebels of Endor knew about the Vong invasion coming a few decades later. However, we do have the benefit of hindsight along with any citizens of the galaxy that lived through the Empire and the Vong invasion, and you would have to be an idiot to prefer the utter devastation and and far more ruthless subjucation of the Vong to the in comparison relatively benign rule of the Empire. What was it, 135 trillion dead from the Vong invasion according to someone earlier in this thread? Thats one hell of a price to avoid some Imperial price hikes.

[TC Pilot]

Two of those sound like completely unreliable and unsubstantiated opinion from Imperial partisans. Only the one from Nom Anor sounds like it might be worth shit.

The Intelligence officer I spoke of was a GFFA officer. I'm fine with him being an Imperial partisan, though. It actually adds more to my overall point.

Also, the ability to kick an enemy's ass is not the only standard by which the quality of a government is measured. Its important certainly, but so is the regard a government holds for the rights of its citizens.

I didn't say it was unimportant. But "regard" for the rights of your citizens doesn't mean much when you can't keep them safe from a horde of psychotic religious zealots, let alone keep them from tearing at each others' throats, or actually be capable of governing the territory under your control.

[The Romulan Republic]

Are governments not also judged by how they respond to internal and external threats?

Of course they are. I never denied it, and in fact basically acknowledged it in the post to which you respond. But they are also judged by other standards.

And while we're at it, Palpatine's response left a lot to be desired. His repressive and bigoted government alienated (no pun intended) large portions of the galactic population.

Then there were the times when he deliberately fostered chaos to increase his own power (ie, the Clone Wars).

The Intelligence officer I spoke of was a GFFA officer. I'm fine with him being an Imperial partisan, though. It actually adds more to my overall point.

Sorry, what does "GFFA" stand for here?

Anyhow, it's one guy's opinion. I don't care what his position was, it's still one man's biased opinion.

I didn't say it was unimportant. But "regard" for the rights of your citizens doesn't mean much when you can't keep them safe from a horde of psychotic religious zealots, let alone keep them from tearing at each others' throats, or actually be capable of governing the territory under your control.

The best you can say about the Empire is that they could have beaten the Yuuzhan Vong- while Palpatine and his cronies abused, tortured, enslaved, or murdered billions or trillions of sentient beings.

I think that ability to keep your citizens safe from outside invasion doesn't mean much if you proceed to kill and abuse them in massive numbers yourself.

[TC Pilot]

Sorry, what does "GFFA" stand for here?

Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, the government that replaced the New Republic.

The best you can say about the Empire is that they could have beaten the Yuuzhan Vong- while Palpatine and his cronies abused, tortured, enslaved, or murdered billions or trillions of sentient beings.

As oppossed to the trillions that died as a direct result of the Vong invasion? Or the trillions that died as a direct result of the New Republic's rise to power and its incompetent governance of the galaxy?

At least the Empire did things like maintain the peace, feed and clothe its citizens, and bring economic prosperity. There's a reason the Empire and Palpatine were wildly popular, after all.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Sorry, what does "GFFA" stand for here?

Anyhow, it's one guy's opinion. I don't care what his position was, it's still one man's biased opinion.

During the Yuuzhan Vong War the Republic lost Coruscant, when I say lost I mean the Vong used their biowanktek to turn it into a living ecosystem again. The entire population would obviously have been wiped out by the Vongformed creatures that lived on the planet. Anyhow the New Republic was broken and they joined with the Imperial Remnants to create a successor government called the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances or just Galactic Federation. And that's like a member of a CIA/FBI amalgam telling you what's going on.

[The Romulan Republic]

Galactic Federation of Free Alliances, the government that replaced the New Republic.

Okay.

As oppossed to the trillions that died as a direct result of the Vong invasion? Or the trillions that died as a direct result of the New Republic's rise to power and its incompetent governance of the galaxy?

Source for "trillions that died as a direct result of the New Republic's rise to power and its incompetent governance of the galaxy?"

Certainly, a lot of deaths occurred during the Galactic Civil War, but I don't see why the New Republic should take the blame for all those deaths, when it was the Empire's brutality that nessessitated revolt, and it was the Empire that made a policy of targeting civilians to inspire terror.

At least the Empire did things like maintain the peace, feed and clothe its citizens, and bring economic prosperity. There's a reason the Empire and Palpatine were wildly popular, after all.

Wildly popular perhaps, except among the races they enslaved, and the worlds they oppressed, occupied, bombarded, and destroyed. Ask a typical Wookie or a Mon Calimari what they thought of the Empire, and you'll doubtless get a different answer from your typical wealthy human in the Core. But I suppose they were acceptable collateral damage to you.

Edit: you could also try asking a citizen of Alderan, if you can find one who's still alive.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Source for "trillions that died as a direct result of the New Republic's rise to power and its incompetent governance of the galaxy?"

Certainly, a lot of deaths occurred during the Galactic Civil War, but I don't see why the New Republic should take the blame for all those deaths, when it was the Empire's brutality that nessessitated revolt, and it was the Empire that made a policy of targeting civilians to inspire terror.

The entire New Jedi Order series, the Yuuzhan Vong killed hundreds of trillions alone on Coruscant simply because the New Republic felt the Vong were the Jedi's problem and then it became the individuals planet's prblem, that the Vong could be reasoned with by giving concession after concession until by the time the New Republic actually decided they needed to act it was too late and Coruscant was burning.

[Eframepilot]

That's not really true. The New Republic military recognized the severity of the Vong threat by the time Ithor was destroyed, but they failed to anticipate the recklessness of Tsavong Lah's strategy that sacrificed far too many Yuuzhan Vong warriors in order to capture Coruscant. It was a Pyrrhic victory that put the Vong at a strategic disadvantage for the rest of the war. Most of the criticism of the New Republic military attacked their conservativeness and willingness to let the outer regions of the galaxy fall in order to protect the Core and Coruscant, yet even that wasn't enough to stop the Vong's charge.

Only a far bigger, more effective military could have saved Coruscant from falling in the first place.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Seems my understanding of it was wrong then, that's still easily trillions of people left to the predations of the Vong willfully through the incompetence of the New Republic.

[Thanas]

It was, does that change the substance of its ruling elite's war-aims and policies during World War I? How can anyone with even a threadbare grasp on WWI history deny those are qualities of German war policies and war aims during World War I?

Which war aims and which policies are, according to you, paragones of racial chauvinism? Just you declaring it common knowledge does not make it so.

[Patroklos]

Only a far bigger, more effective military could have saved Coruscant from falling in the first place.

ie, the Empire.

Does anyone else find it ironic that it was the government supposedly born from and who advocated the intrests of the Outer Rim against the normal dominance of the core world great powers called the New Republic that sacrificed the Outer Rim to save the core worlds, and that in the end it was actaully the Empuire that would have saved the Outer Rim? Delicious.

[TC Pilot]

Source for "trillions that died as a direct result of the New Republic's rise to power and its incompetent governance of the galaxy?"

The scribe in the New Essential Chronology (I think, I have the quote, but not the exact source) writes that calls the Galactic Civil War was "the galaxy's most devastating war." If it was more devastating, and implicitely more costly, it must have resulted in more than the 356 trillion casualties they say in The Unifying Force were lost as a result of the Vong invasion.

Certainly, a lot of deaths occurred during the Galactic Civil War, but I don't see why the New Republic should take the blame for all those deaths, when it was the Empire's brutality that nessessitated revolt, and it was the Empire that made a policy of targeting civilians to inspire terror.

Perhaps. But no rebellion by a tiny, unrepresentative, undemocratic minority of fringe radicals means no reason to crack down on suspected terrorists and traitors, or rebellious worlds, just as no mind-bogglingly incompetent mismanagement of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion means trillions of lives are saved.

Wildly popular perhaps, except among the races they enslaved, and the worlds they oppressed, occupied, bombarded, and destroyed.

So peace, prosperity, and security for the vast majority at the expense of the vast minority. Is that somehow worse than the New Republic-era, which offered nothing but disunity, chaos, and instability for everyone?

[bz249]

The First Galactic Empire was ruled by the evilest and most powerful Sith Lord of all times (though it was not really known by the Rebels themselves). Adding this to the balance there is no sacriface which is unjust overthrowing Palpatine.

On the other hand, the New Republic managed to recreate the failed state known as the Old Republic, so replacing it with an efficient centralized entity ruled by someone else than Palpatine was step forward.

[Patroklos]

You can call Palpantine that all you want, but by any objective measurement the acts of the New Republic ended up being far more evil. From The Prince:

PASSING to the other qualities above referred to, I say that every Prince should desire to be accounted merciful and not cruel. Nevertheless, he should be on his guard against the abuse of this quality of mercy. Cesare Borgia was reputed cruel, yet his cruelty restored Romagna, united it, and brought it to order and obedience; so that if we look at things in their true light, it will be seen that he was in reality far more merciful than the people of Florence, who, to avoid the imputation of cruelty, suffered Pistoja to be torn to pieces by factions.

We are talking about a choice between two options, given Paplantine or the New Republic there is no way to maintain anything approaching a significant minority was better off under the later.

[General Mung Beans]

In the New Essential Chronology among the handful of Imperial atrocities mentioned is the incident mentioned in the OP of a ship landing on top of protestors. If in a Galaxy of literally quadrillions of people, the murder of several hundred people is considered significant enough to be one of the Empire's notable atrocities to be mentioned in a relatively basic history text, I'd say much of the Empire's evil reputation comes from New Republic distortion.

Interestingly a similar case is presented in Harry Turtledove's Worldwar series where extraterrestrials invade Earth during World War 2 and the Allies end up allying with the Nazis-considering that proportionally the Empire is far less cruel and sadistic than Nazi Germany and the Yuuzhun Vong far more genocidal and brutal than the Race, it seems in the long run Imperial rule would have been preferable. Perhaps the best possiblity is for Palpatine to die at Endor but have the Empire maintain political unity and negotiate some sort of compromise with the Rebels.

[TC Pilot]

They tried that. Admiral Betl Oxtroe made preliminary overtures to the New Republic prior to the fall of Coruscant, suggesting that the New Republic Provisional Council assume the role of a regency for the 11-year old grand-niece of Palpatine, in exchange of amnesty to all Imperial military personnel. Before the negotiations could go further, she was assassinated by Noghri Death Commandoes, presumably at Palpatine's behest.

[Thanas]

You can call Palpantine that all you want, but by any objective measurement the acts of the New Republic ended up being far more evil.

Heck no.

Palpatine's eventual life-goal, as stated in Dark Empire, was to suck the life force out of every living being and become a god.

Everybody dead > some dead due to incompetence.

[TC Pilot]

I'm pretty sure that was just Arhul Hextrophon's theory, postulated at a university lecture excerpted in the Dark Empire sourcebook. Compare it to Palpatine's internal monologue in the ROTJ novelization, where he seems perfectly content with what he has already.

[Patroklos]

Exactly. We have a conflict here between what people say Palpantine might have wanted to do with what actually happened throughout the EU. Given the latter I would much rather take my chances with Palpantine give a choice between the two.

When it comes to the Empire we are really suffering from a lack writing. Insread of describing actual attrocities for the most part we are left with the them just stating they are evil and leaving it to our imagination. That would be all well and good if we didn't have the cluster fuck of the New Republic described to us in detail, which means given a comparison between the two we are left with vague accusations versus concrete events.

[Ford Prefect]

So I was thinking to myself, after looking through the Star Wars shelf at my local bookstore, that the New Republic has not been a good thing for the galaxy, especially when compared with the Empire.

The Empire built a gigantic battle station that BLEW UP PLANETS for the express purpose of RULING BY FEAR. And then Palpatine dissolved the Senate, so no one could complain about it. How anyone could seriously labour under the assumption that this is somehow preferable to basically anything else is beyond me.

[Bellosh101]

So you're telling us that being invaded by a group of genocidal aliens who are hellbent on wiping everything else off the face of the galaxy is preferable than tolerating a dictatorship that posesses the means to destroy your planet, but won't do so as long as you behave?

[Ford Prefect]

What a dumb thing to say. Because we're going to be invaded by evil aliens, we should thus submit to a government run by a lunatic megalomaniac and his cadre of vicious monsters? Why should we believe that Palpatine's Empire is actually more suited to fighting the Vong, exactly? The New Republic won. They took the capital of the Empire from it and reduced the whole shebang to a pile of squabbling warlords, and essentially defeated every concerted attempt to bring the Empire back.

[Shroom Man 777]

But FROD the Empire was nowhere near as incompetent as the New Republic, its not like the supreme unquestioned leader of the Empire engineered his government to disintegrate horribly without his presence and then went on to endanger his own life in some hare-brained schemes at lusting over some nubile farmboy's supple buttocks or somethings, thus ending up getting himself killed and fortunately ridding the galaxy of his murderous schemes at blowing the shit out of planets, and causing his shitty murderous (but competent!!1111) government to collapse out of his own... incompetence? Am i rite?!

so youre telling me that being bombed by a bunch of Nazzies who are hellbent on wiping everything else off the face of Europe is preferable than tolerating an atrocious colonial imperialist monarchist fuckerships that possesses the means to send redcoats to kill americans and/or sell opium to chinamen, but won't do so as long as you behave? With the logic displayed by others here, sounds like Britainers in WWII should be pining for the days when they used to be shooting colonials in the New World or selling opium to chinamen

Because, hey, at least back when our government was brutal and oppressive and murdering the fuck out of people at least they brutally oppressed and murdered the fuck out of us while wearing spiffy uniforms and having military hardware that appeases our milwankerisms!

because hey being in a shitty situation with fuckoff aliens now automatically means that the past situation where a brutal regime of fuckers ruled supreme was better/preferable? oh no the new republics are full of jedis and hippies and liberals, it needs moar uniforms and genocide and mangdalorians and military machines to appease mein skewered perspectives!