Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
Same here.See, I dont want bad things to happen to you. I just want you to learn that such things are not OK.
They are the same species. That's close enough for me. Anything else is more a matter of simply not being unnecessarily cruel.Bakustra wrote:What about the severely mentally handicapped, or young children? Do they not have rights?
I'm pretty sure he mentioned it at the start.Wing Commander MAD wrote:Same here.See, I dont want bad things to happen to you. I just want you to learn that such things are not OK.
That said, I'm willing to cut you some slack here Shroomy, seeing as you were an unthinking child at the time (not mentioned originally), and apparently felt some remorse after the fact. Children generally don't fully think through the consequences of thier actions. You at least seem to understand why it was wrong, and why using the most humane method is desirable now.
Houseflies are tough bastards, especially the big ones. I've hit some with a shoe and had them fly off with no apparent damage.Korvan wrote:As a kid, I was guilty of cruelty through squeamishness. I was fishing for lake and rainbow trout with my dad. When my dad caught a fish, he'd grab it through the gill slits and break its neck instantly. When I caught one, there was no way I'd be able to do that, so I grabbed a fish bonker instead. But even then, I couldn't bring myself to strike hard enough for a killing blow. I ended up lightly bludgeoning the fish for several minutes until I think it just died of asphyxiation or perhaps just exasperation. My dad didn't have me kill anymore fish that day and I felt pretty shitty about the whole thing. Between that and watching the fish being cleaned, I pretty much lost my appetite for fish that evening.
As for pests, these days flying insects are set upon with no mercy, though lady bugs get a pass. Wolf spiders are relocated out of doors (even the fucking huge 2 inch leg span ones we get occasionally, those get the grand mason jar relocation method) and web building spiders are allowed to stay inside if they are out of the way and my wife doesn't see them. If mice could stay out of my food and could just shit in one place, I'd live and let live. Only had one mouse so far and he fell to a neighbor's trap.
I do go after flies with a certain amount of vehemence and an electric fly swatter. The electric fly swatter is a bit hit and miss when it comes to giving a clean kill. I've had some cases when I've gotten a visible spark and an audible explosion (really loud, like a small firecracker) and the fly was still alive, even able to fly while still smoking. Can't say I've lost too much sleep over that though (except the occasional nightmare of giant unkillable flys). Not really sure a fly would even feel pain. They'll avoid danger sure enough, but once the danger's past, even a half exploded fly settles down to normal fly behavior.
so you would have no problem with uber-advanced aliens deciding that humans aren't worth protecting any more than we think ants are, then?DudeGuyMan wrote:Anything dumber than a chimp or a dolphin, I don't give a damn what happens to it. I'm not down with killing/eating anything smart enough that it could say "Please don't eat me!" if only someone had taught it sign language or put a synthesizer in it's tank, but short of that an animal had better be really cute and friendly if you expect me to give a shit.
I'd obviously be leery of someone who got their rocks off torturing animals, because in all likelihood they would enjoy torturing humans even more, but I don't actually feel bad for the animal. (Unless, again, it's something cute and friendly.) Bunch of rats die inadvertently in a pet shop fire? Couldn't give less of a shit.
And once you get down to the level of insects, I don't even care that much. I lasered plenty of ants to death with a magnifying glass when I was a kid. I figure we're the sentients, we get to make up the rules.
No, the reason I don't care about bacteria really IS because they don't feel pain or have a mind worth talking about. Any attempt to categorize life into some kind of arbitrary advancement rankings is futile and makes no ontological (let alone empirical) sense. Our brains aren't much more advanced than a bird's (in fact, its less just in terms of computing power to volume used), its just programmed differently and allows for sapient thought. If advanced aliens don't care about us for whatever reason, that's their problem and has no bearing on how a human being ought to behave.DudeGuyMan wrote:If some godlike alien wants to waste me, I'll go "Wait please don't do that!" and if they're not swayed then they're using a different standard than I am. You're using some sort of advancement/intelligence/cuteness scale to determine which organisms are more important than others yourself, otherwise you'd feel really bad for all the bacteria or whatever that you're helpless to avoid killing on a daily basis. I'm sure you'd feel much worse if your daily existence somehow killed an equal number of puppies or something and there was nothing you could do about it.
You mean like whether an organism has a "mind worth talking about" for example? That's the standard I use as well, I just seem to have a different gauge of what's worth talking about.Any attempt to categorize life into some kind of arbitrary advancement rankings
Is smoke inhalation a painful way to die? I've never had a rat problem before and I doubt I could bring myself to snap a rat's neck.Alyrium Denryle wrote:You know, killing a rat by dousing him with boiling water sounds hideously cruel, for sure. But I found myself wondering, is it really as bad as it sounds? For all I know, an animal the size of a rat might be killed instantly by immersion in boiling water. For sure it's not a technique I'd care to employ if I had to kill a rat, but I don't know that this is as cruel as it sounds.
So an animal had better know a language before you give a damn? Cant you simply assume an animal would prefer not to be killed for your own sick and twisted satisfaction?Anything dumber than a chimp or a dolphin, I don't give a damn what happens to it. I'm not down with killing/eating anything smart enough that it could say "Please don't eat me!" if only someone had taught it sign language or put a synthesizer in it's tank, but short of that an animal had better be really cute and friendly if you expect me to give a shit.
Why not? Why doesnt their suffering matter you sociopathic sack of shit?
I'd obviously be leery of someone who got their rocks off torturing animals, because in all likelihood they would enjoy torturing humans even more, but I don't actually feel bad for the animal. (Unless, again, it's something cute and friendly.) Bunch of rats die inadvertently in a pet shop fire? Couldn't give less of a shit.
How does that follow logically?And once you get down to the level of insects, I don't even care that much. I lasered plenty of ants to death with a magnifying glass when I was a kid. I figure we're the sentients, we get to make up the rules.
Read the thread fuck stick. We are basing the worth of an animal on its ability to feel pain, pleasure, and otherwise experience life. Any animal with a primary consciousness can do that, which means most vertebrates and a few inverts as well (like octopi)If some godlike alien wants to waste me, I'll go "Wait please don't do that!" and if they're not swayed then they're using a different standard than I am. You're using some sort of advancement/intelligence/cuteness scale to determine which organisms are more important than others yourself, otherwise you'd feel really bad for all the bacteria or whatever that you're helpless to avoid killing on a daily basis. I'm sure you'd feel much worse if your daily existence somehow killed an equal number of puppies or something and there was nothing you could do about it.
No moron. Suffering is suffering. Some animals can experience it more acutely than others. For example, a lizard can feel suffering in an instant and it can feel fear on a more or less immediate time scale (though monitor lizards may buck that trend). When you remove a rhesus monkey from a cage and take it to be vivisected, the other monkeys know that their friend is not coming back. They can comprehend the concept of death, and foresee it in their own futures. Elephants mourn their dead, so do Orca. As a result, the things that you can do to a lizard without causing it to suffer are more numerous.You mean like whether an organism has a "mind worth talking about" for example? That's the standard I use as well, I just seem to have a different gauge of what's worth talking about.
For entirely different reasons than the ones you ascribe.You'd be a lot more upset at a kitten crunching under your tires than a fly splattering against your windshield.
That you get your sick jollies from making other beings suffer says a lot about you.Having incinerated plenty of bugs via magnifying glass as previously stated, I can tell you they seem perfectly capable of suffering, too.
What makes hurting anything wrong? Suffering is bad. It follows then that if an organism can suffer then as much as it is possible to do so said suffering should not be caused. The standard is not at all arbitrary. It takes a moral truth that is self evident (suffering is bad) and then applies it to organisms in such a way as to create a weighted scale where organisms which are capable of suffering to different degrees are weighted more strongly and the things that are generally justifiable to do to them are constrained. One cannot avoid stepping on tiny tiny insects. One can avoid killing them for sadistic shits and giggles. One should however do their best to avoid running over kittens. Why? Because an insects nervous system is pretty damn primitive. They register damage, but that is about it. A kitten however experiences actual suffering when it gets run over by a bike.I'm curious why my standard is arbitrary but yours supposedly is not.
Crushing it very thoroughly with a shoe. Though to be honest, I avoid killing them unless I am feeding them to something else. Or if I have an infestation, which thankfully I have never had to deal with.Spray or hitting it with something?
YesIs smoke inhalation a painful way to die?
Basic reading comprehension failure. Please quote where I stated that an animal had to actually know a language, rather than simply possess a level of intelligence that could theoretically learn one if taught. Which is what I actually said.Alyrium Denryle wrote:So an animal had better know a language before you give a damn? Cant you simply assume an animal would prefer not to be killed for your own sick and twisted satisfaction?
Because they're just fucking rats. Who, I should repeat, in this scenario all died inadvertently in a fire. Jeez, if I could give a shit about something like that, all the humans who die in accidents would drive me to insanity.Why not? Why doesnt their suffering matter you sociopathic sack of shit?
Well, we could leave the rulemaking to the non-sentient creatures, but it probably wouldn't be very productive.How does that follow logically?
Yeah like I said, this is serious business now. Anyway, remind me what the scientific unit for "ability to experience life" is again? Because it sounds like you just picked an arbitrary level of complexity on the scale of nervous systems and went "Ok, this is where things start to matter. If you picked a higher point on the scale to start giving a shit, you're evil."Read the thread fuck stick. We are basing the worth of an animal on its ability to feel pain, pleasure, and otherwise experience life. Any animal with a primary consciousness can do that, which means most vertebrates and a few inverts as well (like octopi)
Again I didn't say it was okay for a person to do such things. I'd obviously have concerns about the mental state or nature of someone who went around stomping animals for fun. (Except bugs, because they're gross and don't trigger the monkey-empathy in most humans.) I simply wouldn't mourn the lizards or whatever because, fuck 'em, they're just dumb animals. If they were tasty we'd be slaughtering them by the millions in lizard farms.Why is it OK to crush a lizard for shits and giggles but not a person? What makes a person so special that their suffering matters while a lizards does not?
What the hell are you arguing here anyway? This doesn't even really disagree with me, outside of the fact that my line of "too dumb/simple/whatever for me to give a shit if it dies" apparently falls higher up the scale than yours.No moron. Suffering is suffering. Some animals can experience it more acutely than others. For example, a lizard can feel suffering in an instant and it can feel fear on a more or less immediate time scale (though monitor lizards may buck that trend). When you remove a rhesus monkey from a cage and take it to be vivisected, the other monkeys know that their friend is not coming back. They can comprehend the concept of death, and foresee it in their own futures. Elephants mourn their dead, so do Orca. As a result, the things that you can do to a lizard without causing it to suffer are more numerous.
Yeah yeah, everyone who ever vaporized ants with a magnifying glass as a kid is Hitler. Yawn. I am so very chastised.That you get your sick jollies from making other beings suffer says a lot about you.
Yeah I'm sure the roach convulsing itself in half, or the writhing smoldering ant, were just thinking "hitpoints low, return to base". Hey I don't disagree that bugs don't matter, nor would I suggest that mashing kittens is a good idea. I'm just saying, if you told me a ship with ten thousand kittens on board hit an iceberg and sank, well shit. I already have to not give a shit about 99.9999% of the human death in the world just to function.Because an insects nervous system is pretty damn primitive. They register damage, but that is about it. A kitten however experiences actual suffering when it gets run over by a bike.
Thanks for changing your point mid-stream - you said that you don't give a fuck as long as they can't speak. My argument is that while you shouldn't be as broken up over the death of a rat as you should over the death of a human, saying that you shouldn't care about killing animals intelligent enough to have a social structure is just plain sick.DudeGuyMan wrote:If some godlike alien wants to waste me, I'll go "Wait please don't do that!" and if they're not swayed then they're using a different standard than I am. You're using some sort of advancement/intelligence/cuteness scale to determine which organisms are more important than others yourself, otherwise you'd feel really bad for all the bacteria or whatever that you're helpless to avoid killing on a daily basis. I'm sure you'd feel much worse if your daily existence somehow killed an equal number of puppies or something and there was nothing you could do about it.
The two are extensionally equivalent.Basic reading comprehension failure. Please quote where I stated that an animal had to actually know a language, rather than simply possess a level of intelligence that could theoretically learn one if taught. Which is what I actually said.
You didnt. That was not the point. How is it OK for someone to get their jollies torturing something else?Also, please quote where I claimed to kill animals for my own satisfaction. Aside from the childhood practice of zapping bugs with a magnifying glass, in my experience a fairly common phenomenon.
Circular logic.Because they're just fucking rats.
Reading comprehension failure. I was asking you what about us being sentient allows us to automatically be right when we kill something for no reason. Your non-response was disappointing.Well, we could leave the rulemaking to the non-sentient creatures, but it probably wouldn't be very productive.
There is not a unit jackass. It is a judgment call. We have not developed a metric unit for "teologically centered subject of a life" yet. What we do know is that if an organism has a primary consciousness (it actually perceives the world around it, and has a memory that impacts its decisions) which is something we can detect then it is capable of experiencing certain emotions.
Yeah like I said, this is serious business now. Anyway, remind me what the scientific unit for "ability to experience life" is again?
Go back and take a course in basic reading comprehension. We are not drawing an arbitrary line and saying "this is where we give a shit". We are taking the basis of all ethics and applying it in a matter proportionate to how well it applies.Because it sounds like you just picked an arbitrary level of complexity on the scale of nervous systems and went "Ok, this is where things start to matter. If you picked a higher point on the scale to start giving a shit, you're evil."
What you dont seem to get is that it is wrong because the animals themselves have moral worth for their own sake. All of them.I'd obviously have concerns about the mental state or nature of someone who went around stomping animals for fun.
Why is it OK to kill them because they are stupid? What about their lack of intelligence makes them unworthy of moral consideration? You have not once supported this argument with anything even resembling reason. If it is not OK to make a person suffer, why is it OK to make another animal suffer?I simply wouldn't mourn the lizards or whatever because, fuck 'em, they're just dumb animals.
And we should not be doing that to cattle either. Factory farming is amazingly cruel and It is not a practice I support.If they were tasty we'd be slaughtering them by the millions in lizard farms.
See above. I actually have a reason based upon premises that make sense. The choice is not arbitrary, and it is not a binary. It is a sliding scale.What the hell are you arguing here anyway? This doesn't even really disagree with me, outside of the fact that my line of "too dumb/simple/whatever for me to give a shit if it dies" apparently falls higher up the scale than yours.
Which is why I recommend crushing for the cockroach, and not burning ants with a magnifying glass. Just because that is how they register pain does not mean it does not matter that they experience it. I never said as much.Yeah I'm sure the roach convulsing itself in half, or the writhing smoldering ant, were just thinking "hitpoints low, return to base".
You are a sick person.Like the chickens crammed into shitty little miserable cages at the KFC factory? Whatever. They're our meat-slaves whose species exists in a perpetual state of holocaust to feed our insatiable hunger for their delicious flesh. If I thought they mattered, I probably wouldn't be cool with that.
Does not have a mind at all =! has a mind simpler than a human being's, retard. Bacteria are the former, insects are the latter. This matters, because having a mind is a prerequisite to feeling pain. When dealing with naturally evolved minds, the more intelligent it is the more suffering it can experience (with most animals experiencing suffering for fairly obvious things like pain, starvation, fear, etc, while humans get stressed out over abstract shit like "its tax day" or "I need new clothes"). However, that is entirely incidental.DudeGuyMan wrote:You mean like whether an organism has a "mind worth talking about" for example? That's the standard I use as well, I just seem to have a different gauge of what's worth talking about.
So you don't care what happens to one year old infants, who show less intelligence than those animals?DudeGuyMan wrote:Anything dumber than a chimp or a dolphin, I don't give a damn what happens to it.
Ohh... so only the cute animals matter, huh?I'd obviously be leery of someone who got their rocks off torturing animals, because in all likelihood they would enjoy torturing humans even more, but I don't actually feel bad for the animal. (Unless, again, it's something cute and friendly.)
Actually, they never were pests. Cattle very rarely break their legs in the holes, and they are a keystone species in the prairie systems in which they reside. Without them the rangeland ranchers depend on to raise their cattle dies. Driving some species to extinction was actually a very bad idea.PaperJack wrote:About animals knowing languages, apparently prairie dogs do have a form of complex language.
Does that mean they are not pests ? Nope.
After reading this thread I can't add to what Alyrium Denryle has said.Shroom Man 777 wrote:Our house is cluttered and it is the kind of very important clutter that you must keep with you for years on end because throwing those cluttering things away is tantamount to sacrilege or something. If I could, I'd get a kittens and have it kill the rats. It can play and have kitten funs (=^____^=) before it eateds the rats too.Alyrium Denryle wrote:Of course I would question the utility of simple traps when his house is infested as he describes. Something more proactive might work better. Sanitation, catching a few rat snakes and letting them loose in your walls etc.
I am not putting the rat in the freezer. But yes, now that I think of it, drowning is the best way to go about it! Not as messy as smashing their skulls, and it won't leave entrails behind that will make the cage stink and make the other rats avoid it! All I need is a bucket!Drowning or hypothermia is not that bad all things considered. With drowning, hypoxia sets in after the initial panic and unconsciousness sets in. Hypothermia is also relatively painless so long as there is no frost bite. Harder to do properly though.
Next time I'll kill the rats better. Or, just tell someone else to do it.See, I dont want bad things to happen to you. I just want you to learn that such things are not OK.
More power to them! =^_______________^=Some people do eat people...
though a companion cat is often useful to corner the rat for it.
It can be said that vengeance is every bit as despicable as animal cruelty, and half as useful.Flight Recorder wrote:
Monkey see, monkey do?
Did you not even at least internally question such a method? Just because other people were doing it doesn't really make it justifiable now does it?
I still wish ill thoughts on you, though. I don't buy this "I didn't intend to torture it" BS. I hope you get what's coming to you.
They actually are capable of learning and perceive pain in some fashion or another.JointStrikeFighter wrote:How are insects anything other than pure biological machines? They don't really have any cognitive capacity.
It's the same as "killing" a CNC milling machine.
How about neural networks? Build one into a car and you have something that is both capable of learning and "perceives" "pain".Alyrium Denryle wrote:They actually are capable of learning and perceive pain in some fashion or another.JointStrikeFighter wrote:How are insects anything other than pure biological machines? They don't really have any cognitive capacity.
It's the same as "killing" a CNC milling machine.
