Eldar technology in light of refugee status

[PainRack]

Given the fluff - gameplay discrepancies, how does the Tau empire stack up against the other players, technologically?

I'm aware they're largely hated around here, but they're my favorite race (my experience with 40k comes from Dawn of War...)

Ignoring the Walkers vs Dreadnoughts argument, the Tau are actually slightly behind the Imperium in terms of cutting edge technology. The difference is that the Tau is more able to invest in the quality edge. They pay more in terms of weapons cost, along with unit specialisation than the Imperium due to the nature of their conflicts for the perceived tech advantage.

The rest is simply cultural doctrine along with some..... perceived advantages. The LandSpeeder is loud and noisy, but performance wise is on par with the Tau save firepower. The Tau stress on mobility gives them more units capable of aerial juants.

[Stravo]

Given the fluff - gameplay discrepancies, how does the Tau empire stack up against the other players, technologically?

I'm aware they're largely hated around here, but they're my favorite race (my experience with 40k comes from Dawn of War...)

If you read the codexes and fluff surrounding them exclusively you would think the Tau are the shit. They even throw around things like "successor species" where the Tau are seen as the future of the galaxy being depicted as dynamic and all. However I have found as I dive deeper into the fluff that if you rely on the codex of each army that they are all the shit and are going to inherit the galaxy - or if you read the Tyranid codex all the factions are well and truly fucked and the Tyranids will devour the galaxy.

Once you get out of the Tau-centric fluff, they're a decent force just coming onto its own with some glaring weaknesses such as no navigators and barely registering in the Warp in terms of psychic potential however they are well organized, disciplined with a fire in their belly thanks to this "greater good" nonsense with makes them sort of like the Soviets when they just turned to Communisim, eager to export it to the rest of the world but as a very real threat to anyone? For example the Damacles Crusade launched against the Tau by the Imperium really hurt them and only really ground to a bloody stalemate when they hit one of the Tau's core sept worlds. That just goes to show that if the Imperium could muster the might and the will they would steamroll the Tau if a single crusade could sweep through the Tau empire like that. So in the end they are a nascent threat but certainly not up there with Orks or Tyranids.

[Teleros]

Ignoring the Walkers vs Dreadnoughts argument, the Tau are actually slightly behind the Imperium in terms of cutting edge technology. The difference is that the Tau is more able to invest in the quality edge. They pay more in terms of weapons cost, along with unit specialisation than the Imperium due to the nature of their conflicts for the perceived tech advantage.

They also don't have the supply line issues the Imperium does, due to the small volume of space they control. I'm sure if the Imperium was as small and well-knit together as the Tau Empire then we'd see a hell of a lot more high-end Imperial technology. Without some big advances in FTL communications & travel I can't see the Tau expanding very far without splintering into smaller groups (hell it's already happened a little). Assuming the orks, tyranids or necrons don't just squash them of course .

[Imperial Overlord]

One should note that the Navigators are........ special. Warp navigation is possible through technical means, however, only the Navigator subclass allows the Imperium the far flung warp travel capabilities among the normal powers. It has been hinted before that Chaos fleet aren't as capable of long range warp travel as the Imperium due to the lack of the Astronomican and the navigators.

I think its best to simply attribute this to the Emperor blessing, the power of the Astronomican and how merging the Navigator psychic power with the Emperor allows them to align with the Astronomican, giving them the edge.

That's wrong. Navigators are gene engineered psykers, dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. Some chaos ships have Navigators, others are stuck with whatever they can whip up. There's no indication that Chaos can't do long distance warp travel (Chaos Raiders regularly slip through the less stable gates in the Eye of Terror to cause trouble all over the place). Their greatest limitation on long distance operations is the lack of support. Outside of the Eye Chaos has few territories (and they aren't necessarily friendly). That matters when when you start taking damage, losses, expend most of your ammunition, etcetera.

[Drone]

This is sorta an off topic question but related to what Imperial overlord just posted. Why exactly is the Eye of Terror such a big deal if Chaos raiders seem to be able to navigate the Warp and emerge into normal space more or less at will, though obviously it takes travel time? It seems like the Imperium built a fence to stop a river basically.

[Bakustra]

This is sorta an off topic question but related to what Imperial overlord just posted. Why exactly is the Eye of Terror such a big deal if Chaos raiders seem to be able to navigate the Warp and emerge into normal space more or less at will, though obviously it takes travel time? It seems like the Imperium built a fence to stop a river basically.

The only way to get an actual invasion force out is through the Cadian Gate. The Chaos forces that sneak through can dodge patrols or leave through smaller exits around the Eye because they tend to be a handful of ships at best, and then replenish their numbers by recruiting cultists and stealing ships from the Imperium. The Maelstrom (a smaller Eye) also houses Chaos forces that can try to run the blockade around it, and groups like the Alpha Legion and cults are already outside of the Eye altogether. There are also areas that have been conquered by cults and insurrections. However, these forces are limited to raiding smaller, less important worlds, since they have only limited amounts of materiel they can escape with.

[Drone]

This is sorta an off topic question but related to what Imperial overlord just posted. Why exactly is the Eye of Terror such a big deal if Chaos raiders seem to be able to navigate the Warp and emerge into normal space more or less at will, though obviously it takes travel time? It seems like the Imperium built a fence to stop a river basically.

The only way to get an actual invasion force out is through the Cadian Gate. The Chaos forces that sneak through can dodge patrols or leave through smaller exits around the Eye because they tend to be a handful of ships at best, and then replenish their numbers by recruiting cultists and stealing ships from the Imperium. The Maelstrom (a smaller Eye) also houses Chaos forces that can try to run the blockade around it, and groups like the Alpha Legion and cults are already outside of the Eye altogether. There are also areas that have been conquered by cults and insurrections. However, these forces are limited to raiding smaller, less important worlds, since they have only limited amounts of materiel they can escape with.

So they can't transition to normal space outside the cadian gate even though the imperium can?

[Connor MacLeod]

Eldar tech is significantly more advanced than Imperial tech in many respects, it just isn't always going to be obvious or utilized to extremes for various reasons (like with the Imperium, or real life.) Logistics may be a reason (all Eldar gear is basically psychically "made" and fixed - even though wraithbone is regenerative, it probably needs help in some cases to grow properly. If you don't have many or enough of the specialists, then you probably will have limitations.) Personal/Ethical reasons is another, as someone already mentioned (the most immediate example are those Eldar superweapons buried on that one planet the Imperials occupied in some WD article.)

Even allowing for the above, there's alot of wiggle room for "sophistication" to show up. Durability and reliability is as big an issue for the Eldar as it is for humans, and wraithbone (and psychic devices in general) have a huge advantage here. Efficiency means greater reliability. Efficiency can also translate into other benefits than just direct damage. Greater range or penetration (more tightly focused energy beams) or increased ammo capacity. Hell, efficiency can still mean greater damage even assuming both guns use the same amount of energy per shot in terms of mechanical damage (explosive vaporization) or rate of fire, or in terms of settings (An Eldar lasgun might actually be able to output more energy on a higher setting due to greater efficiency.) It could also manifest in other ways - better targeting gear, "adaptive" qualities (Some wriathbone items can "re-shape" to better serve their functions), and so on. A good example is the Eldar Ranger's long rifle and its vast superiority over the IG long-las.

There's also the distortion cannon. The Imperium's closest equivalent are vortex munitions, and the D-cannon is arguably more precise (in a relative sense.)

The simple fact of Eldar construction and power sources - Eldar psychic engineering basically, is significantly more sophisticated than anything the Imperium does. Wraithbone serves functions of communication, power transmission, structure, and others. IT can, as I said, self heal. Eldar tap the warp for power and propulsion. They have grav/magnetic accelerator weapons and antigrav as standard (and can maintain it, something that the Imperium cannot always do with its grav units.)

As for the Tau, their biggest advantage (aside from luck) is that their tech base and trooper kit is far more highly standardized than a comparable IG unit. The Guard can vary widely in how it is equipped and what with, even within certain broad means of standardization (all use similar lasguns, Russes or Chimeras, but there's alot of room for customization and modification that cna alter abilities dramatically.) The Tau also tend to have a logistical "home field" advantage in that their supply lines are relatively short and fairly consistent, wheras the Imperium is operating at the far edges of their empire in a region of space where warp stuff can be very wonky, especially since the problems with the Astronomican popped up. Many of the Imperium's "losses" to the Tau suffer in the logistics area for one reason or another (too few troops, or troops not properly equipped, or lack of replacements of troops or gear or vehicles, or any combination thereof.) When you factor in that the Tau aren't really deemed all that big a threat (compared to an Ork WAAAGH, Tyrnaid Hive Fleet, Chaos incursion, or whatever) those problems become even more pronounced (and this is one area where luck comes in.)

The Tau are also a highly specialized (even over-optimized in terms of doctrine, although in practice this has been remedied some in recent sources) military force, and within that specilalization they naturally will do very well, but will fail outside of it (and a big reason why Fire Warriors need others like the Kroot to help them out.) Again, more often than not the Tau have been able (or been lucky enough) that they can often fight the Imperium on their terms (rather than the other way around.) which allows them to play to their strengths.

Which is not to say they don't have some stuff that is better than what the Guard has. Pulse rifles do more per-shot damage than your "Average' lasgun (at least on comparable settings) and often has greater range and accuracy, but armor may not be much better (or in some cases may be even worse.) Plasma weapons for the Tau are often more reliable, but this is more a result of said weaponry trading off firepower for safety than being "better".

[PainRack]

That's wrong. Navigators are gene engineered psykers, dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. Some chaos ships have Navigators, others are stuck with whatever they can whip up. There's no indication that Chaos can't do long distance warp travel (Chaos Raiders regularly slip through the less stable gates in the Eye of Terror to cause trouble all over the place).

Err, what I suggested was that there is indication that Chaos can't conduct long distance warp travel as WELL as the Imperium.

Its based on some offhand quotes regarding how the Impierum access to navigators give them unparalleled abilities and then some blurbs about Chaos raiders relying on the vagaries of the warp. Intergrate them together and it may suggest that the Imperium has superior long range warp travel.

But then again, I haven't really trawled the net or sourcebooks to really investigate this so..... concede

[Bakustra]

So they can't transition to normal space outside the cadian gate even though the imperium can?

Sure they can. It's more accurate to say that they can only enter normal space through the Cadian Gate. The Eye is submerged entirely within the Warp, remember. There is no "normal space" within the Eye, and they may be forced to enter normal space through the Gate first before transitioning back to the Warp, but don't quote me on that. Regardless, the Imperium patrols both the Warp and normal space in and around Cadia. The currents at the edge of the Eye of Terror are strong enough to force large groups through the Gate, though small groups can take temporary gates that form in the currents to escape as well.

[Imperial Overlord]

Err, what I suggested was that there is indication that Chaos can't conduct long distance warp travel as WELL as the Imperium.

Its based on some offhand quotes regarding how the Impierum access to navigators give them unparalleled abilities and then some blurbs about Chaos raiders relying on the vagaries of the warp. Intergrate them together and it may suggest that the Imperium has superior long range warp travel.

But then again, I haven't really trawled the net or sourcebooks to really investigate this so..... concede

Well that's true. Overall the Imperium has better long range warp travel. It's not like a Chaos warlord can hit up major Navigator houses for replacements. They have the survivors that went with them, a few they captured/pressed into service/whatever since then, and then daemons, sorcerers, and praying for good luck for the rest of it. One of the major subplots of Soul Hunter is the acquisition of a new Navigator, as their current one is dying. Farseer depicts a chaos vessel that navigates by sorcery and ritual sacrifice. I wouldn't call those situations equal to the norm of the Imperial military.

[Simon_Jester]

It depends on whether sorcery and ritual sacrifice work. Which for all I know they might, this being 40k.

[Imperial Overlord]

It depends on whether sorcery and ritual sacrifice work. Which for all I know they might, this being 40k.

No, it depends on how well they work. Being ten times more effective than unassisted travel means it sucks compared to Navigator guided journeys. Unassisted travel consists of shot hops in the general direction, with the ship returning to real space every now and then to check it's bearings. On a good day, you can crack double digit lightyears. A Navigator can cross the galaxy in a year or two.

[Ugolino]

Dark Crusade mentions that Kronus isn't connected to the webway, so the Farseer has to use a cruiser ("Vision of Lileath") to reach the planet.

[Drone]

So they can't transition to normal space outside the cadian gate even though the imperium can?

Sure they can. It's more accurate to say that they can only enter normal space through the Cadian Gate. The Eye is submerged entirely within the Warp, remember. There is no "normal space" within the Eye, and they may be forced to enter normal space through the Gate first before transitioning back to the Warp, but don't quote me on that. Regardless, the Imperium patrols both the Warp and normal space in and around Cadia. The currents at the edge of the Eye of Terror are strong enough to force large groups through the Gate, though small groups can take temporary gates that form in the currents to escape as well.

So the Eye is some sort of barrier in the Warp as well as being a gateway between the material and Warp planes? I guess I'm just trying to figure out how Chaos is hemmed in by the Eye exactly, since it would seem like they could just stay in the warp and pass whatever blockades are up in normal space. I don't recall any actual combat ever happening in the Warp, is it possible? Other than Daemon attacks of course if the gellar field drops.

[Serafina]

It's not like the cadian gate is the only possible passage out of the Eye of Chaos. It's just the largest, fastest and safest one.

You see, the edges of the Eye are filled with violent warp storms. The interior isn't that bad, kinda like an eye of the storm (pun propably intended). But if you want to leave it by warp travel (the only viable means for interstellar travel) you will have a high propability to run into a warp storm - which are still dangerous to chaos forces.
The cadian gate is filled with necron pylons which stabilize the warp, making warp travel much less hazardous.

There are other passages, but they are not as stable, relibale and vast as the cadian gate. So for any big invasion, Chaos has to pass trough the cadian gate simply to maintain relibale supply lines.

[Drone]

Ah, giant warp storm makes sense, since it's a barrier in both realms, I'd just never seen it actually described as such.

[Serafina]

Ah, giant warp storm makes sense, since it's a barrier in both realms, I'd just never seen it actually described as such.

Well, it's kinda self-explanatory.

We know that warp storms are common in areas where the barrier between real space and the warp is breached. Since that is the case in vast areas around the Occulus Terribus, warp storms should be a common occurence there.
However, the interior of the Eye of Terror is completely inside the warp - there no longer is an interaction with real space. Therefore, there should be no heightened amount of warp storms. We can also infer that by the sheer fact that chaos fleets can survive there for prolong periods of time, which would not be the case if they were trapped in warp storms all the time.

This neatly explains why Chaos can not easily traverse out of the Eye of Chaos but is still able to move in relative safety insife.

[Bakustra]

Ah, giant warp storm makes sense, since it's a barrier in both realms, I'd just never seen it actually described as such.

Based upon the nascent daemon world in The Traitor's Hand, it's possibly more like a gigantic vortex in the warp; traveling out is difficult because the currents are pushing you back in. The name of the Maelstrom would seem to support this.

[Talk738kno]

I think the incident that most highlights Eldar technological superiority is the in Planetstrike, where a Eldar force numbering no more in the tens of thousands(Supported by the fact on Medusa IV, a coalition of dozen craftworlds there deemed a mere 100 aspect warriors sufficient to hold off 1 million Tyranids,,,,) managed to defeat a Imperial PDF hive world force easily numbering in the hundreds of millions, supported by Cadian and Vahhalean regiments by outmaneuvering them, as their objective was to destroy all the hives on the planet, which they accomplished without the Imperials ever forcing a major engagement on the Eldar warhost. Most of note, that the Eldar managed to run roughshod easily over well manned, dug in, fortified defense lines in their initial attack, despite the Imperials receiving warning of the attack several days beforehand.

[Night_stalker]

To be fair, Eldar are known for using psychic abilites in concert with their tech. They also make use of Farseers, so they probably planned out their attacks to catch most of them by surprise, and whittled them down. Eldar tech is powerful, but they seem to be focused on high speed and hitting fast rather than actual armor and defenses. They claim to be superior to humans, but once they go up against a foe who is somewhat of a problem for them to deal with, guess who they come crawling back to?

[NecronLord]

To be fair, Eldar are known for using psychic abilites in concert with their tech. They also make use of Farseers, so they probably planned out their attacks to catch most of them by surprise, and whittled them down. Eldar tech is powerful, but they seem to be focused on high speed and hitting fast rather than actual armor and defenses. They claim to be superior to humans, but once they go up against a foe who is somewhat of a problem for them to deal with, guess who they come crawling back to?

I can't think offhand of an example of the Eldar 'crawling back to' the Imperium to deal with their problems, if that's what you're saying.

[Night_stalker]

Remember Wunter Assualt?

[NecronLord]

Remember Wunter Assualt?

No, actually. But I hardly think that making common cause against a mutual enemy is really that shameful.

Eldar Privateers have also appeared out of nowhere like the avenging wrath of god and saved Imperial battlefleets. Therefore it is appropriate to generalise and say the Eldar shield mankind from chaos?

[Teleros]

Certainly the Eldar and Imperium have worked together before (aside from Winter Assault, wasn't there an Epic 40K battle / campaign in which it happens?), but that's hardly the same as crawling back to humans. If anything it's more like: "This could be a really costly campaign. Let's go dupe the mon-keigh cannon fodder into winning it for us."