Az Gov shows disregard for safety Legalizes (some) fireworks

[Crossroads Inc.]

LINK

Brewer signs bill to legalize ‘some’ fireworks in Arizona
Reported by: Brian Webb
Email: bwebb@abc15.com
Reported by: Associated Press
Last Update: 5/10 11:05 pm
Fireworks could become legal in Arizona within days

PHOENIX -- Governor Jan Brewer has signed a bill allowing the sale and use of sparklers and other fireworks that shoot off sparks but don't explode.

The signing Monday caps years of lobbying by the fireworks industry, with governors vetoing versions in the 1990s.

It is currently illegal to buy, sell or use sparklers and other so-called "consumer-grade" fireworks in Arizona. The law takes effect Dec. 1.

Brewer expressed concern about wildfires when she vetoed a 2009 version and Valley firefighters say they were hoping she'd do the same this year.

"Fireworks and dangerous, especially to children," said Fire Investigator David Zehring from the Gilbert Fire Department. "It's going to cost the state a lot of money to fight these fires started by fireworks."

Many fire departments are also fighting budget cuts to staff and equipment and the windy dry conditions this spring will only make fireworks more difficult to control.

The National Fire Protection Agency says in 2006 fireworks caused an estimated 32,600 reported fires across the U.S. resulting in six civilians deaths, 70 injuries and $34 million in property damage.

"It doesn't matter if it's in the hands of the wrong people or the right people, there will be fires and injuries because of fireworks, we already see it with illegal fireworks," said Zehring.

This year's version will allow the state to collect a penalty for misuse of fireworks and to use the money for fire suppression.

The bill will allow cities to prohibit use of fireworks, and counties could restrict use in unincorporated areas during times of risk of wildfire.

For those outside Arizona to understand this.. Arizona is dry.. Very very Dry. You can't sneeze in the summer without causing fires here. Fireworks of all sorts have been banned here for ages, but there has been a constant drumbeat by various marketers for 'soft fireworks' like Sparklers...

I am sure many people might not thing of "The Firework Lobby" in the same vein as Big Oil, or Big Tobacco.. but it looks like Brewer has sold (partially) out to them.

[Akhlut]

Not to mention that sparklers are dangerous to young children. They are, after all, burning in excess of 1800 degrees F (1000 degrees C). I know I'm not going to let my son handle anything like that until he's at least 7 or 8, if not older.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Not to mention that sparklers are dangerous to young children. They are, after all, burning in excess of 1800 degrees F (1000 degrees C). I know I'm not going to let my son handle anything like that until he's at least 7 or 8, if not older.

Part of what got Sparklers banned in the first place was an incident with a 12yo girl who dropped hers on her dress which immediately caught on fire and the sparkle melted to it and seriously burnt her...

I wonder if Brewer thought about that case even once while signing this.

[Ryan Thunder]

These are the same morons who legalized concealed carry without a permit, aren't they? Obviously public safety isn't a concern for them.

[Mr Bean]

It's fireworks, cut the scaremongering. They are not an every day purchase. Unless your unusually patriotic there are perhaps two, maybe three times during the year your average consumer buys fireworks. The 4th of July... maybe Veterans day and maybe a birthday.

When you go down lists of serious fire hazards, illegal brush clearing and trash burning are much, much higher up that list because they occur all year round rather than less than a four days a year. Seriously, Fireworks man? Your talking about companies and business that existing for three months out of the year and sell any left-over stock the rest of the year. Fireworks is not a big time industry. If you take the industry as a whole you get a 800 million in revenue each year (IE chump changes, that's across the entire US), and if you remove people who do Fireworks professionally for Football games, rock concerts and the like that number falls even farther (All numbers taken from the American Pyrotechnics Association with the unfortunate website name of http://www.americanpyro.com ) to less than 400 million a year in revenue from point to point sales to the public. Or in other words, there's less money in "big Fireworks" each year than big Tobacco makes per week.

[General Zod]

Not to mention that sparklers are dangerous to young children. They are, after all, burning in excess of 1800 degrees F (1000 degrees C). I know I'm not going to let my son handle anything like that until he's at least 7 or 8, if not older.

I don't buy the "think of the children" argument. There's plenty of things that are dangerous to let children handle but aren't outlawed.

[Ryan Thunder]

Not to mention that sparklers are dangerous to young children. They are, after all, burning in excess of 1800 degrees F (1000 degrees C). I know I'm not going to let my son handle anything like that until he's at least 7 or 8, if not older.

I don't buy the "think of the children" argument. There's plenty of things that are dangerous to let children handle but aren't outlawed.

I don't buy the "but xyz isn't outlawed, and it's dangerous too" argument. Just because other hazards aren't doesn't mean a given one shouldn't be either.

[General Zod]

I don't buy the "but xyz isn't outlawed, and it's dangerous too" argument. Just because other hazards aren't doesn't mean a given one shouldn't be either.

It shouldn't even be a concern when you have to be over 18 to buy fireworks already. What kind of addle-brained parent would let a kid handle them?

[Alphawolf55]

Me and my brothers use to handle fireworks all the time since they're legal in many areas in New England. They're not too dangerous as long as you follow simple safety precautions.

[Akhlut]

I don't buy the "but xyz isn't outlawed, and it's dangerous too" argument. Just because other hazards aren't doesn't mean a given one shouldn't be either.

It shouldn't even be a concern when you have to be over 18 to buy fireworks already. What kind of addle-brained parent would let a kid handle them?

Well, apparently about 3,000 sets of parents a year, as 1/3 of the injuries related to fireworks in the US were under 15; 1,000 total injuries were due to the use of sparklers, although the CDC doesn't tell us how many of those were underage kids (source).

So, given that there are injuries, deaths, and potential for large scale destruction of wild areas in Arizona due to fireworks for little discernable reason other than AMERICA FUCK YEAH, I don't really see a reason to not ban them.

[General Zod]

I don't buy the "but xyz isn't outlawed, and it's dangerous too" argument. Just because other hazards aren't doesn't mean a given one shouldn't be either.

It shouldn't even be a concern when you have to be over 18 to buy fireworks already. What kind of addle-brained parent would let a kid handle them?

Well, apparently about 3,000 sets of parents a year, as 1/3 of the injuries related to fireworks in the US were under 15; 1,000 total injuries were due to the use of sparklers, although the CDC doesn't tell us how many of those were underage kids (source).

So, given that there are injuries, deaths, and potential for large scale destruction of wild areas in Arizona due to fireworks for little discernable reason other than AMERICA FUCK YEAH, I don't really see a reason to not ban them.

The property damage thanks to Arizona being highly flammable is a decent reason. I just find any screeching about "won't somebody think of the children!" extremely dubious at best. If those injuries were more thanks to teenagers being dipshits than children then your argument doesn't hold as much water.

[Uraniun235]

How much illegal fireworks use occurs in AZ? I know that growing up in Oregon, every other family I knew had an annual tradition of driving up to Washington to load up on a trunk full of illegal fireworks.

(Certain fireworks are legal here, but fireworks that shoot up into the air or spray sparks above a certain height are banned, as a fire prevention measure.)

[Crossroads Inc.]

How much illegal fireworks use occurs in AZ? I know that growing up in Oregon, every other family I knew had an annual tradition of driving up to Washington to load up on a trunk full of illegal fireworks.

(Certain fireworks are legal here, but fireworks that shoot up into the air or spray sparks above a certain height are banned, as a fire prevention measure.)

Arizona, specifically Phoenix is pretty strict, on July4th the police are out in the same way other cities have them out on NewYears picking up drunk drivers. Anyone sending up visible fireworks form their back yards risks a pretty heft fine, and for the most part illegal fireworks here are a rare thing.

As for "Think of the Children!" sorry if I came off like that, its just that its more personal here since we have had incidents in the past and its something

[FSTargetDrone]

Firework regulations by (US) state, in handy PDF format at the link.

[Tsyroc]

In Tucson there are a lot of big professional firework shows and a laser light show beamed against one of the mountains. I think there are so many to discourage illegal fireworks. The fire issue is really serious here. The city's main fireworks show is launched from "A" mountain and there have been several years it's been postponed due to fire hazard, and even when they do have the show the night usually ends with the mountain on fire. The fire department is there to deal with it.

It'll be interesting to see how many fires there are because of sparklers the next couple of years. I don't have the greatest faith in parental supervision here. Plus we have a lot of dumbasses who move here but then don't adjust their thinking to take into consideration that the differences between Arizona and where they used to live isn't just that it's hot. It can be really fucking dry at times. Hence the "It's a dry heat".

I'm probably still a little more concerned about illegal fireworks, especially bottle rockets. I've seen a small one of those set a bag of trash on fire after landing on it and exploding. So having one of those land on the roof of my house or in the rain gutter, or even in some brush could be bad.

Here's a question for people who don't live here. Does your local news run public service warnings about firing guns into the air for the 4th of July, New Years, or other occasions? They do it pretty regularly around here and I've seen a few reports of people being hit by descending bullets, or the bullets going through the roof of someone's trailer.

[Guardsman Bass]

Firework regulations by (US) state, in handy PDF format at the link.

Interesting stuff, although I know the rules for my state (Utah) pretty well.

I've never understood, though, why they ban the "over-15' up" stuff here around New Years. Most of the time, it's wet and cold here around New Years' Eve - you'd have to really try to get a fire started for one to get going.

[Qwerty 42]

Firework regulations by (US) state, in handy PDF format at the link.

Interesting stuff, although I know the rules for my state (Utah) pretty well.

I've never understood, though, why they ban the "over-15' up" stuff here around New Years. Most of the time, it's wet and cold here around New Years' Eve - you'd have to really try to get a fire started for one to get going.

I would assume it has something to do with the tendency in some circles to get inebriated during the holiday season. That's probably more of a personal-safety thing than a fire-hazard thing.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It's fireworks, cut the scaremongering. They are not an every day purchase. Unless your unusually patriotic there are perhaps two, maybe three times during the year your average consumer buys fireworks. The 4th of July... maybe Veterans day and maybe a birthday.

And Arizona is really really really dry. That number of annual firework purchases is about the number of days a year that there is a significant amount of rain. Drought conditions (which for AZ says something) for the last decade and a half. Massive wildfires get started by people tossing lit cigarettes out of their car.

A large percentage of the population is rural in desert scrubland. Do you understand?

[Mr Bean]

It's fireworks, cut the scaremongering. They are not an every day purchase. Unless your unusually patriotic there are perhaps two, maybe three times during the year your average consumer buys fireworks. The 4th of July... maybe Veterans day and maybe a birthday.

And Arizona is really really really dry. That number of annual firework purchases is about the number of days a year that there is a significant amount of rain. Drought conditions (which for AZ says something) for the last decade and a half. Massive wildfires get started by people tossing lit cigarettes out of their car.

A large percentage of the population is rural in desert scrubland. Do you understand?

Again and?

I notice you cut off the second part of my post which went into the reasons why there are A far more common fire hazards than fireworks. And B, fireworks are a rare purchase. Banning them because you have to worry about idots setting their backyards on fire two days out of the year is extreme. It's scaremongering and as you yourself noted... there's a whole host of much more common causes for wildfires!

Why are cigarette's not banned in Arizona if we can't trust people not to toss lit ones out of cars and thus start wildfires?
Review your logic

Finding exact numbers on Wildfire data is hard but for 2006 by reading news stories there were a total of 381 separate Wildfires in the state, 89% caused by human causes. Of that 89% there were over seventy confirmed cases of wildfires along highways or other roads due to old lit cigarette issue. That same year there were four wildfires due to fireworks. If you want to talk cause and effect here, we have a clear case for banning cigarette's in the state because they cause a shit-ton more fires than fireworks do. So yes, cut the damn scaremongering. That's not the cause of your wildfires. Thats the cause of .0104% of your wildfires that year compared to 18% of cigarette caused wildfires.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Bean... I have this simple question...
Do you think Fireworks should NOT be banned?

I am not talking about banning fireworks in a "OH! Please think of the children!" manor, simply as something that CAN be banned.
Yes, Idiots and camp fires cause wildfires
Yes, Idiots having BBQ in the middle of June cause fires
Yes, idiots flicking cigarettes into the dry scrub brush causes fires.

Can we ban those things? not really..
Can we ban fireworks? Yes..

Personally I would LOVE to ban cigarettes in national parks during the dry months Here in Arizona. Shoot I'd like to make it so people have to have a special license just to light a Fire. Draconian? Maybe... But to follow your logic it would keep down wild fires. That said We can't really do that.

So why do you seem to pick on the one thing we CAN ban?

[Alyrium Denryle]

I notice you cut off the second part of my post which went into the reasons why there are A far more common fire hazards than fireworks.

Because I felt no need to respond. Trash burning and illegal brush clearing are *gasp* illegal.

Banning them because you have to worry about idots setting their backyards on fire two days out of the year is extreme. It's scaremongering and as you yourself noted... there's a whole host of much more common causes for wildfires!

They also go out into the desert to do it, idiot. One of the major recreational activities for young people is to go out in the desert and drink/do something they are not supposed to. Fireworks will now be added to the list of things they do. Enforcing a ban on fireworks in the extensive national parks will be next to impossible said fireworks being stopped at the source.

Why are cigarette's not banned in Arizona if we can't trust people not to toss lit ones out of cars and thus start wildfires?

Because doing that would cause a riot. Banning fireworks does not.

Of that 89% there were over seventy confirmed cases of wildfires along highways or other roads due to old lit cigarette issue. That same year there were four wildfires due to fireworks. If you want to talk cause and effect here, we have a clear case for banning cigarette's in the state because they cause a shit-ton more fires than fireworks do.

Did you hit your head recently? In the desert states where fireworks would be a problem, they tend to be banned or heavily restricted. City ordinances tend to cover those dry states with more lax regulations. Of course wildfires started by cigarettes will be more common.

Just because something else causes more wildfires is not reason to restrict other fire starters. I am sure you have heard of the logical fallacy you are committing.

[Mr Bean]

Do I think Fireworks should not be banned?
Yes, but them I'm a raging Liberal who's a fan of legalizing lots of things and focusing on the education or treatment angles not the prohibition angle.

People like Fireworks, people like setting off fireworks. If you make Fireworks illegal they will ironically go off into the very scrub grass your trying not to start a fire in to set them off because they get worried about getting caught. Deny someone a pleasure and they will seek out an illicit method of getting that pleasure even its something as basic as watching shit go boom and seeing lots of pretty lights.

Better to legalize it and then require licensing or designated areas with flexible but stiff penalties if you violate the rules. However you want to set up the rules banning it is a mistake. Permit it, but only within state defined parameters. And make those parameters sane don't require the guy doing football game fireworks and the guy who wants to shoot off some Roman candles in his back yard to get the same permit. Federal parks know this, have issues with wildfires because of campfires? Then build designated campgrounds and clear fire pits and make sure your park rangers are checking people. Not every minute, but hey drive by once every two hours. Provide and outlet and the issue of illegal usage becomes much less.

*Edit word choice in the 2nd line

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yes, but them I'm a raging Liberal who's a fan of legalizing lots of things and focusing on the education or treatment angles not the banning angle.

Fireworks anonymous?

Seriously though, education in a lot of cases is a platitude used to make one feel better. Arizona is populated, frankly, by a whole hell of a lot of rednecks. Teenagers are also pyromaniacs regardless of whether or not you educate them about the dangers of fireworks in the desert.

People like Fireworks, people like setting off fireworks. If you make Fireworks illegal they will ironically go off into the very scrub grass your trying not to start a fire in to set them off because they get worried about getting caught.

And they are getting them where exactly? They have to make a trip to a neighboring state or Mexico. This reduces the risk. It is not like guns or drugs with a own freakishly lucrative black market.

Federal parks know this, have issues with wildfires because of campfires? Then build designated campgrounds and clear fire pits and make sure your park rangers are checking people. Not every minute, but hey drive by once every two hours.

And they have designated no burn days for a reason. In Arizona, those days happen to be most of the year unless you are farther up north in the state or it rained yesterday.

[Broomstick]

Bean, how dense are you?

Out here in Indiana we have fire works and we are a LOT wetter than Arizona... and we still have fires set by fireworks. It's not hugely common, but it does occur every year that someone sets something on fire they shouldn't.

Fireworks burn VERY hot. So hot that they can cause instant ignition in dry wood, grass, paper, plastics, etc. A bottle rocket landing on a roof can really ruin everyone's day.

I've been setting off fireworks since I was 12 (my parents did supervise me at that age) and I make a habit of not only following all directions, I use things like fireplace matches for lighting even the smallest ones, so I can keep a maximum distance from them. Even small firecrackers are not to be taken over-lightly. Fireworks are, after all, small bundles of explosives. Gunpowder is dangerous whether it is in a bullet or a firework. Sparklers, as noted, bur extremely hot, far hotter than burning paper or a wood fire.