Likelihood of a Second Galactic Empire?

[Bellosh101]

Because we're going to be invaded by evil aliens, we should thus submit to a government run by a lunatic megalomaniac and his cadre of vicious monsters?

If a lunatic megalomaniac and his cadre of vicious monsters had the ability to prevent a pan-galactic conflict from causing hundreds of trillions of deaths, then I'd have to say yes from an utilitarian perspective.

The New Republic won.

The New Republic would have never won if it wasn't for Luke Skywalker; if he never existed, there is absolutely no assurance that the Rebellion would have gone on to defeat the Empire.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Old Republic circa the Clone Wars could've killed the crap out of the Vong too, and the CIS could've too. The Old Republic, as far as I know, also didn't blow its own planets up for shits and giggles and didn't rule through fear and tyranny, but I guess they're too unfashionable. Too much Jedi, too much lilly-livered morality, not enough stormtroopers and deathstars and space fascism. So I guess preferring the Empire is cooler that way. Hey, I understand. Back when I was a kid, I always rooted for the Nazis and I even bought some swastika stickers that I stuck all over the house, and on my toy halftrack too (true story). In the movies, I hated it when the Americans blew up the Nazi tanks, because those Nazis with those uniforms and in those tanks, man, they were totally badass. I even had my mom put swastikas in my underwear.

[Bellosh101]

The Old Republic, as far as I know, also didn't blow its own planets up for shits and giggles and didn't rule through fear and tyranny, but I guess they're too unfashionable.

And yet the Empire failed to kill 350+ trillion despite its fondness of blowing planets up for shits and giggles.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yeah, because somehow a bunch of ragtag plucky rebels blew up their Death Stars and ruined their shit, killed their leader, and basically ruined the craps of their government. Oh mang!

[Bellosh101]

But had the Death Stars remained operational, nobody would have dared to oppose the Emperor. Peace and order would be restored thanks to the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction and the Death Star superlaser would never have to be fired again! Cheers for deterrence theory!!!

[Shroom Man 777]

Um, no. When the Death Star was operational, people dared oppose the Emperor and then the Death Star... stopped being operational (because it exploded). Then the Emperor fell and died and the Empire's craps got ruined.

[Bellosh101]

All those people who dared oppose the Emperor at Yavin would have been destroyed without Luke Skywalker there to save their asses. Without Luke, the Empire would have had operational Death Stars because nobody else had the ability to destroy them, which means the Rebellion would have been inherently doomed to fail sooner or later.

[Ford Prefect]

If a lunatic megalomaniac and his cadre of vicious monsters had the ability to prevent a pan-galactic conflict from causing hundreds of trillions of deaths, then I'd have to say yes from an utilitarian perspective.

Except we're back at the assumption that the Empire was better suited to defeating the Vong, an assessment which has no real basis. Sure, Nom Anor says something to that effect, but Nom Anor is a known liar, a specialist in disinformation, so taking anything he says on face value is foolish. What do you base the idea that Empire was better suited to fighting the Vong on? It's not like they're technologically more advanced than the New Republic, and logically they would have similar industrial capability (and really, the Empire used slave labour in major industrial projects, so it's not like their industry would be operating at peak capacity). You could, I suppose, claim that the Empire was more militaristic and battle hardened, but the New Republic was a government installed following a revolutionary war so there's no real basis for that either. Perhaps the upper echelon's willingness to make pointlessly ruthless decision could have been of some benefit, but the upper echelons were also not all there, so relying on them to make good decisions is silly.

The New Republic would have never won if it wasn't for Luke Skywalker; if he never existed, there is absolutely no assurance that the Rebellion would have gone on to defeat the Empire.

And if Palpatine never existed, neither would the Empire. This is also a dumb thing to say. Yes, if Luke Skywalker hadn't been there to make the legendary shot that killed the first Death Star, then Tarkin would have blown Yavin IV up and wiped the Rebel Alliance out. However, it's not like Luke was personally responsible for every subsequent victory over the Empire: while he is responsible for the Emperor's death in the final film, he plays essentially no part in the destruction of the second Death star, and there were numerous battles and campaigns following the Battle of Endor that the New Republic fought in order to eliminate the Empire as a coherent political entity.

[Bellosh101]

What do you base the idea that Empire was better suited to fighting the Vong on?

1. Larger active military: quantity has a quality of its own, and the 25,000+ ISD force along with a good amount of battleships, a few battlestations, and countless numbers of lesser ships would have posed a much greater challenge to the Yuuzhan Vong than the mere five fleets the New Republic fielded most of the time.
2. No hesitation: the Emperor would have no motive to hold back his forces the way the New Republic Senate did. Keeping the Yuuzhan Vong from establishing a foothold in the galaxy would have gone a far way towards ensuring Yuuzhan Vong failure.

However, it's not like Luke was personally responsible for every subsequent victory over the Empire: while he is responsible for the Emperor's death in the final film, he plays essentially no part in the destruction of the second Death star, and there were numerous battles and campaigns following the Battle of Endor that the New Republic fought in order to eliminate the Empire as a coherent political entity.

The Rebel Alliance's objective was to overthrow the Emperor; the Rebellion was not doing a very good job of overthrowing the Emperor before Skywalker came along to save their butts. As long as the Rebellion was failing to overthrow the Emperor, the Galactic Empire was ultimately victorious on all fronts.

[Ritterin Sophia]

What do you base the idea that Empire was better suited to fighting the Vong on?

Because the Empire had more assets available to it than the New Republic and New Republic intelligence reports even said as much.

[Shroom Man 777]

1. Larger active military: quantity has a quality of its own, and the 25,000+ ISD force along with a good amount of battleships, a few battlestations, and countless numbers of lesser ships would have posed a much greater challenge to the Yuuzhan Vong than the mere five fleets the New Republic fielded most of the time.

1. Grand Army of the Republic: The Old Republic would've been far more mobilized for actual total war than the Galactic Empire which was farting around quelling tiny insurgencies to the point where its armor had atrophied to uglee stupid lumbering useless mechanimus. Clearly Emperor Palpatine is a shit for creating the Galactic Empire, and the Old Republic would've been far more superior in stomping the shit out of the Vongoes.

2. No hesitation: the Emperor would have no motive to hold back his forces the way the New Republic Senate did. Keeping the Yuuzhan Vong from establishing a foothold in the galaxy would have gone a far way towards ensuring Yuuzhan Vong failure.

2. Too dead: The Emperor was too prone getting himself killed in convoluted Sith schemes to do any of that.

The Rebel Alliance's objective was to overthrow the Emperor; the Rebellion was not doing a very good job of overthrowing the Emperor before Skywalker came along to save their butts. As long as the Rebellion was failing to overthrow the Emperor, the Galactic Empire was ultimately victorious on all fronts.

Did Luke Skywalker obtain the necessary schematics needed to find the Death Star's weakness, was he the one who orchestrated the Battle of Endor? Was he actually even the one who took out the DS2's shields and blew the fuck out of the DS2 itself, and was he the one commanding the fleet action that fucked the Executor in the face? Nope. The Rebel Alliance did all that. And, also, the Rebel Alliance apparently found the right man to kill the Emperor himself - namely, Darth Vader.

Damn, the Rebel Alliance is good! Picks the best guys, and makes the best plan, to defeat the most incompetent bunch of totalitarian farts in sci-fi. Hahahahaha.

*AT-ATs trip on their own shoe laces*

whoopsie i made a poopsie

Because the Empire had more assets available to it than the New Republic and New Republic intelligence reports even said as much.

The Grand Army of the Republic would've kicked the shit out of the Vong. Clearly this means that not only was the New Republic shit for replacing the Empire, it also means that the Empire was shit for replacing the Old Republic. Senator Jar Jar Binks > Emperor Palpatine > Mon Mothra.

[Ford Prefect]

Because the Empire had more assets available to it than the New Republic and New Republic intelligence reports even said as much.

And here's the head scratcher: if they had such an impressive material advantage, how did they lose to the New Republic in the first place?

[Norade]

Because the Empire had more assets available to it than the New Republic and New Republic intelligence reports even said as much.

And here's the head scratcher: if they had such an impressive material advantage, how did they lose to the New Republic in the first place?

Infighting, getting caught off guard by a sudden out rush of high moral rebel forces, general breakdown of the chain of command.

[Ford Prefect]

Not that I needed any more confirmation, but all you've done is point out that Empire is built like a house of cards. It's an unavoidable fact that the Empire was not very stable at all: it fell apart at the seams when faced with a serious threat. You could argue that if Palpatine is around that these problems would not be as pronounced, but at the same time these problems must have already existed: those rivalries must already exist, and the chain of command must be broadly useless under pressure. It's not some juggernaut of a nation, unshakeable and unstoppable. I see no reason to assume that when actually faced by the Vong that the Palpatinate Empire would emerge totally victorious having sent the Vong scurrying home with their proverbial tails tucked between their legs.

[Norade]

Not that I needed any more confirmation, but all you've done is point out that Empire is built like a house of cards. It's an unavoidable fact that the Empire was not very stable at all: it fell apart at the seams when faced with a serious threat. You could argue that if Palpatine is around that these problems would not be as pronounced, but at the same time these problems must have already existed: those rivalries must already exist, and the chain of command must be broadly useless under pressure. It's not some juggernaut of a nation, unshakeable and unstoppable. I see no reason to assume that when actually faced by the Vong that the Palpatinate Empire would emerge totally victorious having sent the Vong scurrying home with their proverbial tails tucked between their legs.

You know that the GE was designed that way right? So long as Palpy is alive and his meditation is running they fight better, the moffs and admirals are forced to play nice and it all works. It only fell apart when the majority of high command died in the botched plan over Endor and the Vong would never have got such a chance as they aren't Luke so there is no reason for such a trap as was set on the OT.

Between the larger fleet numbers, high moral, and good training, under Palpatine you're going to need to show how they couldn't win against a half dead biowank fleet that enjoys nono of the advantages of the rebellion and that Palpatine knew, in broad strokes, was due to arrive.

[Ford Prefect]

Why am I even bothering? The Empire clearly has huge, exploitable systematic faults in its entire structure, is staffed by psychopaths and incompetents prone to squabbling, but you're willing to handwave this all away purely because of Palpatine? I accept that he clearly does have an effect on the coherence of his Empire, but he's not omnipresent. He cannot be everywhere, and he's still a blithering moron. He had the entire Rebel Alliance locked into a situation that he could not possibly have lost ... which he lost, because of his hubris. I'm not exactly seeing the hypercompetant unstoppable military juggernaut here.

EDIT: for that matter, where are you getting good training from? Stormtroopers, for example, have basically one good showing, and that's disabling a Jawa sandcrawler. Their next best showing is the assault on the Tantiv IV, where they prove to be fast and accurate, but completely incapable of just chucking a couple of grenades out the door.

[Shroom Man 777]

But... but... but... the Rebel Alliance needed Luke Skywalker! One mang! It's not like as if the Rebels have been independently carrying operations long before Luke came out of Tatooweenie and successfully did stuff like steal the plans of the DS1 and blow up the DS2 without him, and Luke only coming in do to heroic stuff every once in a while but actually not doing anything real important since Mon Mothra and Admiral Ackbar did the actual rebelling!

Compare that to the Empire which needed Palpatine to stay cohesive! Oh mang, it's not like the entire nation broke apart into petty infighting and outright civil war, tearing itself to pieces, to totally allow a bunch of scrappy ragtag rebel nobodies to take over the entire galaxy with pathetic opposition and turn the whole Empire into a shit-nation like in a blink of an eye!


PS - I mean, shit, what do we see Luke do that's so vital to the Rebel Alliance? Does he lead? Command? Plan? No, all he does is be some expendable shit grunt among a whole bunch of disposable fighter pilots sent on a suicide run. Then in ESB all he does is get his ass frozen and sent to a swamp world. Then in ROTJ, he ditches his team to go with his daddy and get subjected to Palpatine's lecherous pedophilic wiles (mang, what a great leader of the Empires!). Clearly in an organizational standpoint, he's even more useless than Han! At least Han was like commanding the team on Endor. Same with Apollo Creed, who commanded the fighter wing at DS2. Luke's a shmuck.

[Norade]

Why am I even bothering? The Empire clearly has huge, exploitable systematic faults in its entire structure, is staffed by psychopaths and incompetents prone to squabbling, but you're willing to handwave this all away purely because of Palpatine? I accept that he clearly does have an effect on the coherence of his Empire, but he's not omnipresent. He cannot be everywhere, and he's still a blithering moron. He had the entire Rebel Alliance locked into a situation that he could not possibly have lost ... which he lost, because of his hubris. I'm not exactly seeing the hypercompetant unstoppable military juggernaut here.

EDIT: for that matter, where are you getting good training from? Stormtroopers, for example, have basically one good showing, and that's disabling a Jawa sandcrawler. Their next best showing is the assault on the Tantiv IV, where they prove to be fast and accurate, but completely incapable of just chucking a couple of grenades out the door.

Given that the EU pretty much says that the 'hand waving' as you call it was a large part of the reason the GE military worked I'd say that it's fair that I can use it. As far as him being everywhere, he pretty well is, at least the effect of him is due to military wide battle meditation. The loss at Endor was certainly bad, but in the end it hinged on two unexpected attacks that would be unlikely to work again if you tried to reproduce them. We also never see the GE get to fight a straight up battle simply because there were none to fight.

The EU states that Stormies were well trained, Obi Wan backs this idea up in the movie as well. On the Tantive IV they couldn't risk blowing away anybody important, that was the entire point, while I agree that they could have used stun grenades and the like they did a decent enough job at breaching even without and, IIRC, suffered under a dozen casualties from the rebels even while moving through a narrow door and without using grenades. Hardly the best, but many modern militaries fail at seemingly basic things at times too.

[Shroom Man 777]

Haha, lol. I mean, clearly the Empire is crap. Do we want to wage an intergalactic total war of survival with an inept loser totalitarian regime that - upon the assassination of their dumbshit leader - immediately disintegrates into infighting, to allow their enemies to fucking take over the entire galaxy? A regime that spends decades doing nothing but peacekeeping and counter-insurgency crap against a bunch of ragtag scrappy rebel shits who barely amount to anything, and YET kick this Empire's ass and end up ruling the whole fucking galaxy while the Imperials lose their fucking testicles? Because this is the Galactic Empire.

Or do we want a badass nation that's stood for, like, a million years and is currently kicking ass in a likewise massive total galactic war against an implacable foe that's churning out innumerable ships and war machines everyday? That manages to hold this foe at bay in a huge ass war throughout the heavens, on all sorts of worlds throughout the galaxy? That despite the infiltrations of all sorts of seperatist shits still manages to fight, and has in its disposal a bunch of supermen with supersenses and superlaserswords and fucking superpowers? Because this is the Old Republic.

The Old Republic kicked ass and won, they kicked the big bad Seperatists in their fucking ovaries.

The Galactic Empire's tits fell off, their milkbags got breastbleeded by a bunch of scrappy rebel shits.

oh no but the galactic empire is so haaaard cooore! yeeeeaaaah! lookit me so macho! urgh! extreme! my FAT-FATs are tripping on a bunch of string! my stormtroopers are getting their faces eaten by ewoks! my government can't function and disintegrates as soon as my deranged leader dies! woah! radical maaaaaang! totally! woohooo! frod frod frod strak strak strak frod frod frod strak frod strak frod strak strak frod frod strak frod strak strak strak strak strak frod frod frod frod shrom shrom shrom shrom shrom!

[Srelex]

You do know that the Clone Wars amounted to an elaborate puppet show on Palpatine's part? And technically the Republic didn't win it, seeing as the war was ended by Palpatine having the 'enough of this shit' button being pressed.

[bz249]

The Old Republic circa the Clone Wars could've killed the crap out of the Vong too, and the CIS could've too. The Old Republic, as far as I know, also didn't blow its own planets up for shits and giggles and didn't rule through fear and tyranny, but I guess they're too unfashionable. Too much Jedi, too much lilly-livered morality, not enough stormtroopers and deathstars and space fascism. So I guess preferring the Empire is cooler that way. Hey, I understand. Back when I was a kid, I always rooted for the Nazis and I even bought some swastika stickers that I stuck all over the house, and on my toy halftrack too (true story). In the movies, I hated it when the Americans blew up the Nazi tanks, because those Nazis with those uniforms and in those tanks, man, they were totally badass. I even had my mom put swastikas in my underwear.

Have you seen the PT? You know that crappy film with too much Jar-Jar-Binks involved. Now if you have watched carefully those movies you can notice that the Old Republic (of the PT time) was a textbook example of a failed state, unable to project its authority, disfunctional legislation and executive branch and most local entities just laughed at them. This could have been the result of Palpatines schemes, however it seems more reasonable, that he only managed to strengthen some development here, suppress others there, help an ambitious guy here, push down someone else there...etc, which only accelerated the inevitable fall of the Republic.

By the way the New Republic was functioning exactly the same ill-designed way with no clear field of responsibilities, non defined government agenda and top-heavy, but disfunctional administration.

[Ford Prefect]

Given that the EU pretty much says that the 'hand waving' as you call it was a large part of the reason the GE military worked I'd say that it's fair that I can use it. As far as him being everywhere, he pretty well is, at least the effect of him is due to military wide battle meditation. The loss at Endor was certainly bad, but in the end it hinged on two unexpected attacks that would be unlikely to work again if you tried to reproduce them. We also never see the GE get to fight a straight up battle simply because there were none to fight.

The EU states that Stormies were well trained, Obi Wan backs this idea up in the movie as well. On the Tantive IV they couldn't risk blowing away anybody important, that was the entire point, while I agree that they could have used stun grenades and the like they did a decent enough job at breaching even without and, IIRC, suffered under a dozen casualties from the rebels even while moving through a narrow door and without using grenades. Hardly the best, but many modern militaries fail at seemingly basic things at times too.

This is becomingly increasingly daft. So now Palpatine has galactic scale battle meditation? Never in the wildest estimations of Palpatine's capabilties have I seen it suggested that he can utilise a powerful telepathic effect over literally tens of thousands of lightyears. Jesus Christ, why does he even bother calling him up on the holophone to talk to Vader, when he could just, you know, chat telepathically? Mind you, he's obviously not doing that great a job, given every single military engagement the imperials engage in, even Hoth, is a fiasco. You can't just say 'oh, Endor was an unusual circumstance' and ignore it, because even though it was an unusual circumstance, it is still indicative of how the Empire is run. You know, there's something of a double standard at play here, one which is mildly disturbing. The New Republic is frequently derided for being riddled with political problems, and yet the Empire gets a pass, despite also being riddled with problems. You can't even say that these problems were irrelevant, either, given that the Empire collapsed because of their existence.

And frankly, what characters say means less to me compared to what I can see on screen. What a crock: they can't use grenades because they don't want to kill anyone important ... which is why they immediately run in, guns blazing? Highly trained commandos they aren't.

[Shroom Man 777]

You do know that the Clone Wars amounted to an elaborate puppet show on Palpatine's part? And technically the Republic didn't win it, seeing as the war was ended by Palpatine having the 'enough of this shit' button being pressed.

You do know that the Old Republic was able to maintain its cohesion in spite of facing a foe far more drastic than the Rebel Alliance, in the form of the CIS/Seperatists? You do know that the system of government of the Old Republic was also not designed to disintegrate if and when the Chancellor/Palpatine was removed, and that unlike the Empire the Old Republic would've maintained cohesion and not have shattered into a bunch of infighting Imperial factions who'd just fuck around and let some ragtag rebels take over the entire fucking galaxy? You do know that the Old Republic was capable of waging a galactic war without having its entire system of government and its military reduced to a bunch of sycophants and sociopaths who'd end up fighting each other if Palpatine falls into a bottomless pitshaft, unlike the Empire? You do know that the Old Republic was not quite the fucked up totalitarian shit regime of idiots like the Empire you people so like, that despite its incompetence it didn't murder entire worlds for housing dissidents because unlike the Empire, the Old Republic was a functional democracy? You do know that the Old Republic at least has that positive side, over the fact that the Empire is full of genocidal "rule by fear" fucks? You do know that makes the whole notion of "New Republic = Shit, thus Empire = preferable choice" shit because turns out the Empire's a bunch of murderous fucks - not just that, but also STUPID murderous fucks - and that the Old Republic would've been just as able to competently wage a galactic war WITHOUT being a bunch of murderous fucks? Apparently murderous fucks are cool nowadays since they've got all the badass uniforms and military hardware shitwares to make the insecure and inadequate feel better about themselves with all the hurf hurfing murderdeathkillfuckeries. But the Old Republic has all that WITHOUT being a bunch of murderous fucks, WITHOUT having a shitty government engineered to destroy itself by a stupid shithead Emperor, and WITH cool things like democracy and, uh, the fucking Jedi Order, and shit.

[Shroom Man 777]

Have you seen the PT? You know that crappy film with too much Jar-Jar-Binks involved. Now if you have watched carefully those movies you can notice that the Old Republic (of the PT time) was a textbook example of a failed state, unable to project its authority, disfunctional legislation and executive branch and most local entities just laughed at them. This could have been the result of Palpatines schemes, however it seems more reasonable, that he only managed to strengthen some development here, suppress others there, help an ambitious guy here, push down someone else there...etc, which only accelerated the inevitable fall of the Republic.

By the way the New Republic was functioning exactly the same ill-designed way with no clear field of responsibilities, non defined government agenda and top-heavy, but disfunctional administration.

Uh? The Old Republic was able to wage a galactic war, and was not composed of a bunch of murderous Imperial fucks, and its government was NOT engineered to disintegrate if and when its leader died - because, guess what, as a democracy they could elect a new leader and the Old Republic state would've continued on? Which is totally something the Empire didn't do, because like a house of cards made out of sacks of shit, it collapsed into a giant heap of crap the instant Palpatine croaked?

but i guess that kind of shitty nation isn't an example of a failed state

[Bakustra]

Have you seen the PT? You know that crappy film with too much Jar-Jar-Binks involved. Now if you have watched carefully those movies you can notice that the Old Republic (of the PT time) was a textbook example of a failed state, unable to project its authority, disfunctional legislation and executive branch and most local entities just laughed at them. This could have been the result of Palpatines schemes, however it seems more reasonable, that he only managed to strengthen some development here, suppress others there, help an ambitious guy here, push down someone else there...etc, which only accelerated the inevitable fall of the Republic.

By the way the New Republic was functioning exactly the same ill-designed way with no clear field of responsibilities, non defined government agenda and top-heavy, but disfunctional administration.

Have you seen the OT? You know, the original Star Wars movies? Now if you had watched those movies carefully, you would have figured out that the Empire was a textbook example of a failed state. It murders billions of its own citizens, dissolves its representative body in order to expedite this, and instills genocide as a legitimate action in its upper echelons.

Have you read the EU? You know, the sucky parts of Star Wars? If you had, you would have noticed that the authors tend to beat it into the heads of the readers that the Empire is sexist, speciesist, genocidal and religiously intolerant, just because they thought that they wouldn't get the impression of evil from mass murder. It seems that they were right (and I threw up a little just saying that) but apparently all that sledgehammering just doesn't make an imprint in some people's skulls.

Oh, wait! I forgot that if we cherry-pick and twist our sources, the Empire is actually good!