Likelihood of a Second Galactic Empire?

[Shroom Man 777]

Well, I like Zimbabwe and like I said, when I was a kid I used to stick swastika stickers on my toy halftrack and root for the Nazis in WW2 movies. So, yes. The Empire is actually good.

[Norade]

Given that the EU pretty much says that the 'hand waving' as you call it was a large part of the reason the GE military worked I'd say that it's fair that I can use it. As far as him being everywhere, he pretty well is, at least the effect of him is due to military wide battle meditation. The loss at Endor was certainly bad, but in the end it hinged on two unexpected attacks that would be unlikely to work again if you tried to reproduce them. We also never see the GE get to fight a straight up battle simply because there were none to fight.

The EU states that Stormies were well trained, Obi Wan backs this idea up in the movie as well. On the Tantive IV they couldn't risk blowing away anybody important, that was the entire point, while I agree that they could have used stun grenades and the like they did a decent enough job at breaching even without and, IIRC, suffered under a dozen casualties from the rebels even while moving through a narrow door and without using grenades. Hardly the best, but many modern militaries fail at seemingly basic things at times too.

This is becomingly increasingly daft. So now Palpatine has galactic scale battle meditation? Never in the wildest estimations of Palpatine's capabilties have I seen it suggested that he can utilise a powerful telepathic effect over literally tens of thousands of lightyears. Jesus Christ, why does he even bother calling him up on the holophone to talk to Vader, when he could just, you know, chat telepathically? Mind you, he's obviously not doing that great a job, given every single military engagement the imperials engage in, even Hoth, is a fiasco. You can't just say 'oh, Endor was an unusual circumstance' and ignore it, because even though it was an unusual circumstance, it is still indicative of how the Empire is run. You know, there's something of a double standard at play here, one which is mildly disturbing. The New Republic is frequently derided for being riddled with political problems, and yet the Empire gets a pass, despite also being riddled with problems. You can't even say that these problems were irrelevant, either, given that the Empire collapsed because of their existence.

And frankly, what characters say means less to me compared to what I can see on screen. What a crock: they can't use grenades because they don't want to kill anyone important ... which is why they immediately run in, guns blazing? Highly trained commandos they aren't.

Never showed the ability to use powers to cloud or boost people's minds over large scale... Funny, I could swear he used a shroud powerful enough to pull the wool over the most powerful jedi alive's eyes while also keeping an random jedi mook anywhere in the galaxy from breaking free of the shroud and get even the foggiest that anything was wrong. You're either being ignorant of the source or knew and chose to make me explain it to you. Either way you're a moron.

Also battle meditation to direct cohesiveness =/= to telepathy or a direct line to Vader via the force.

While we do see examples of competence by the GE's forces we see far worse from the NR as a matter of course, or worse yet they don't even deploy to make the mistakes in the first place while worlds fall to attack. The same goes for the politics, there was surely infighting and the like, but not to the extent that a war was ignored and the only people that could help were hunted down and in some cases handed to the enemy.

As for the Tantive IV shooting after confirming that your target is a nobody is still less indiscriminate that hurling grenades about wildly. They did after all capture some rebels for interrogation and as far as we know no high ranking targets were killed. This may not have been the case if grenades were employed.

[Norade]

Have you seen the PT? You know that crappy film with too much Jar-Jar-Binks involved. Now if you have watched carefully those movies you can notice that the Old Republic (of the PT time) was a textbook example of a failed state, unable to project its authority, disfunctional legislation and executive branch and most local entities just laughed at them. This could have been the result of Palpatines schemes, however it seems more reasonable, that he only managed to strengthen some development here, suppress others there, help an ambitious guy here, push down someone else there...etc, which only accelerated the inevitable fall of the Republic.

By the way the New Republic was functioning exactly the same ill-designed way with no clear field of responsibilities, non defined government agenda and top-heavy, but disfunctional administration.

Have you seen the OT? You know, the original Star Wars movies? Now if you had watched those movies carefully, you would have figured out that the Empire was a textbook example of a failed state. It murders billions of its own citizens, dissolves its representative body in order to expedite this, and instills genocide as a legitimate action in its upper echelons.

Have you read the EU? You know, the sucky parts of Star Wars? If you had, you would have noticed that the authors tend to beat it into the heads of the readers that the Empire is sexist, speciesist, genocidal and religiously intolerant, just because they thought that they wouldn't get the impression of evil from mass murder. It seems that they were right (and I threw up a little just saying that) but apparently all that sledgehammering just doesn't make an imprint in some people's skulls.

Oh, wait! I forgot that if we cherry-pick and twist our sources, the Empire is actually good!

In the case of the GE versus Vong they were the lesser of two evils. Just as if the Nazi's had saved us from alien invasion.

[Shroom Man 777]

Except the Old Republic circa Clone Wars could've done the same, with less totalitarian fuckery, and somewhere down the line Palpatine can go get fucked WITHOUT the galactic government dissolving into infighting and outright civil war unlike the oh-so-great Empire which was full of mentally-challenged shiteaters who couldn't even keep their form of government functioning without Palpatine farting out some flatulating cloud of the dark side shit or whatever battlefield shitty sithy meditating bullshit you attribute to him.

[Bakustra]

This is becomingly increasingly daft. So now Palpatine has galactic scale battle meditation? Never in the wildest estimations of Palpatine's capabilties have I seen it suggested that he can utilise a powerful telepathic effect over literally tens of thousands of lightyears. Jesus Christ, why does he even bother calling him up on the holophone to talk to Vader, when he could just, you know, chat telepathically? Mind you, he's obviously not doing that great a job, given every single military engagement the imperials engage in, even Hoth, is a fiasco. You can't just say 'oh, Endor was an unusual circumstance' and ignore it, because even though it was an unusual circumstance, it is still indicative of how the Empire is run. You know, there's something of a double standard at play here, one which is mildly disturbing. The New Republic is frequently derided for being riddled with political problems, and yet the Empire gets a pass, despite also being riddled with problems. You can't even say that these problems were irrelevant, either, given that the Empire collapsed because of their existence.

That's only speculation; the only clear example was at Endor, when a force-sensitive Grand Admiral was the one conducting the battle meditation, according to the latest information. He stopped when Palpatine died. But the only suggestion of galactic battle-meditation was from Star Wars: Rebellion, and since it is a game mechanic of uncertain abstraction, I'm not going to credit it with much. The original suggestion from the Thrawn books is fairly obviously talking about Endor in context.

And frankly, what characters say means less to me compared to what I can see on screen. What a crock: they can't use grenades because they don't want to kill anyone important ... which is why they immediately run in, guns blazing? Highly trained commandos they aren't.

Highly trained by the standards of the universe, which had not had a major war in a thousand years by the time of the Clone Wars.

[Norade]

Except the Old Republic circa Clone Wars could've done the same, with less totalitarian fuckery, and somewhere down the line Palpatine can go get fucked WITHOUT the galactic government dissolving into infighting and outright civil war unlike the oh-so-great Empire which was full of mentally-challenged shiteaters who couldn't even keep their form of government functioning without Palpatine farting out some flatulating cloud of the dark side shit or whatever battlefield shitty sithy meditating bullshit you attribute to him.

Not without Palpatine leading the way, Chancellor Valorum had lost control of his government and there were armed conflicts breaking out and they likely would have still broken out sooner or later had Palpatine not given the Neimoidians a push. They had no military and wouldn't have even had the clones and their ships if not for the work Palpatine did behind the scenes to get his plan going. the OR would have done worse than the NR at defending the galaxy.

[Bakustra]

In the case of the GE versus Vong they were the lesser of two evils. Just as if the Nazi's had saved us from alien invasion.

You haven't shown that the GE would be capable of doing so after twenty years of doing nothing. It seems that things would start to get a little lax in the Imperial Starfleet after twenty years of sitting around, picking their noses or whatever. For that matter, I doubt that the Empire would be able to maintain a massive buildup for twenty years in the face of nothing. Unless Palpatine decides to make internal enemies to keep the Fleet sharp, in which case we have a civil war again. For that matter, the Nazis were unlikely to have saved anybody from alien invasion, given their demonstrated incompetence.

[Norade]

In the case of the GE versus Vong they were the lesser of two evils. Just as if the Nazi's had saved us from alien invasion.

You haven't shown that the GE would be capable of doing so after twenty years of doing nothing. It seems that things would start to get a little lax in the Imperial Starfleet after twenty years of sitting around, picking their noses or whatever. For that matter, I doubt that the Empire would be able to maintain a massive buildup for twenty years in the face of nothing. Unless Palpatine decides to make internal enemies to keep the Fleet sharp, in which case we have a civil war again. For that matter, the Nazis were unlikely to have saved anybody from alien invasion, given their demonstrated incompetence.

25,000 ISD's, a Death Star (Depending on time), a government that has no reason to hold back and not crush them? The issue isn't even that the GE would act well, it is that they would act and the Vong as so worthless they would die to even a bunch of barely trained apes manning an overwhelming response worth of ships.

As for the Nazis saving anything, it was an example of the lesser of two eveils, not some Nazi wank saying their moon bases and lasers would defend us from space invaders.

[Bakustra]

25,000 ISD's, a Death Star (Depending on time), a government that has no reason to hold back and not crush them? The issue isn't even that the GE would act well, it is that they would act and the Vong as so worthless they would die to even a bunch of barely trained apes manning an overwhelming response worth of ships.

As for the Nazis saving anything, it was an example of the lesser of two eveils, not some Nazi wank saying their moon bases and lasers would defend us from space invaders.

What makes you think that they would respond effectively? Why are we presuming that any given jerk in the upper echelons of the Imperial Government is any less self-centered and stupid than Borsk Fey'lya, given the propensity of authoritarian governments for attracting such people? It's not like the New Republic had any reason to hold back either, and all the speculation about Palpatine building up forces to deal with the Vong is just that- speculation. It could as easily be, given the timeframe, a build-up to deal with the Silentium. Why are we presuming that Palpatine will necessarily care? He cut deals with the Ssi-ruuk to allow them to raid Imperial territories in exchange for their tech. What makes you so sure that he wouldn't come to a similar arrangement with the Vong?

[Norade]

25,000 ISD's, a Death Star (Depending on time), a government that has no reason to hold back and not crush them? The issue isn't even that the GE would act well, it is that they would act and the Vong as so worthless they would die to even a bunch of barely trained apes manning an overwhelming response worth of ships.

As for the Nazis saving anything, it was an example of the lesser of two eveils, not some Nazi wank saying their moon bases and lasers would defend us from space invaders.

What makes you think that they would respond effectively? Why are we presuming that any given jerk in the upper echelons of the Imperial Government is any less self-centered and stupid than Borsk Fey'lya, given the propensity of authoritarian governments for attracting such people? It's not like the New Republic had any reason to hold back either, and all the speculation about Palpatine building up forces to deal with the Vong is just that- speculation. It could as easily be, given the timeframe, a build-up to deal with the Silentium. Why are we presuming that Palpatine will necessarily care? He cut deals with the Ssi-ruuk to allow them to raid Imperial territories in exchange for their tech. What makes you so sure that he wouldn't come to a similar arrangement with the Vong?

While I believe that you may have a point, I highly doubt that a Moff ruling that section of the outer rim would let his worlds fall without any fight. Due to the increased militarization of the GE versus the NR he would have more forces to repel the enemy with. This may not be enough, but even an outer rim Moff will have those that would help him for a price.

As for the Palpatine building up for the Vong, IIRC, it was stated in NJO that he knew of their coming. This doesn't mean he would stop them, but if he chose to he had more warning than the NR did. Also just because he lets some piddly aliens, who couldn't fight off a gimped fleet at Bakura, raid in exchange for some goodies doesn't mean that he would let entire world fall when saving them will further his aims and slow rebellion. An example would be the US funding radicals that can't do any major damage to the nation and using that to explain why they wouldn't fight back a Russia invasion.

[Shroom Man 777]

Except the Old Republic circa Clone Wars could've done the same, with less totalitarian fuckery, and somewhere down the line Palpatine can go get fucked WITHOUT the galactic government dissolving into infighting and outright civil war unlike the oh-so-great Empire which was full of mentally-challenged shiteaters who couldn't even keep their form of government functioning without Palpatine farting out some flatulating cloud of the dark side shit or whatever battlefield shitty sithy meditating bullshit you attribute to him.

Not without Palpatine leading the way, Chancellor Valorum had lost control of his government and there were armed conflicts breaking out and they likely would have still broken out sooner or later had Palpatine not given the Neimoidians a push. They had no military and wouldn't have even had the clones and their ships if not for the work Palpatine did behind the scenes to get his plan going. the OR would have done worse than the NR at defending the galaxy.

Bullshit. So without Palpatine, the OR would've NEVER had been able to deploy a massive military capable of waging a galactic war? So without Palpatine, the OR would've gone down exactly the same as the NR? Eh? How does that logically follow? Prove it? The OR's massive military buildup was done on a very short period of time, with the initial orders of clone troopers and their ships done in friggin' secret, and then suddenly they managed to ramp it up to match the CIS in terms of output. The CIS, a bunch of corporations in themselves, were able to make armies capable of stomping around the galaxy in short order! So, getting a bigass military similar to the Grand Army of the Republic and the droids of the CIS is something that can be done quickly.

Not only that, but the Old Republic also have a Jedi fucking Order that very easily assumed command of the Republic's military. The Jedi Order is even capable of assuming command of the entire Republic in case of an emergency. So, fuck that, the Empire is NOT the end all be all and neither is Palpatine. Without stupid plot considerations, without hadwaving or storyline shit or writer's fiat or writer's fuck or whatever, the Old Republic has EVERYTHING it needs to wage a galactic war - without Palpatine, the Jedi are still there, the infrastructure needed to make a bigass fuckoff army is still there, nothing changes except for the lack of some shit-eating Sith piece of shit planning to make some kind of Empire ruled by a bunch of sociopathic sycophantic shits who can't even manage a government without Palpatine farting some magic meditation bullshit field. Oh, wait, but I guess without an Empire full of incompetent atrocity-committing fuckfaces who can't even manage a government without Palpatine farting some magic meditation bullshit field full of shoelace-tripping AT-ATs, it probably wouldn't satiate the latent Freudian phallic decrepitudes present in these inadequate Empire wankers now, would it?

[bz249]

Have you seen the PT? You know that crappy film with too much Jar-Jar-Binks involved. Now if you have watched carefully those movies you can notice that the Old Republic (of the PT time) was a textbook example of a failed state, unable to project its authority, disfunctional legislation and executive branch and most local entities just laughed at them. This could have been the result of Palpatines schemes, however it seems more reasonable, that he only managed to strengthen some development here, suppress others there, help an ambitious guy here, push down someone else there...etc, which only accelerated the inevitable fall of the Republic.

By the way the New Republic was functioning exactly the same ill-designed way with no clear field of responsibilities, non defined government agenda and top-heavy, but disfunctional administration.

Have you seen the OT? You know, the original Star Wars movies? Now if you had watched those movies carefully, you would have figured out that the Empire was a textbook example of a failed state. It murders billions of its own citizens, dissolves its representative body in order to expedite this, and instills genocide as a legitimate action in its upper echelons.

Have you read the EU? You know, the sucky parts of Star Wars? If you had, you would have noticed that the authors tend to beat it into the heads of the readers that the Empire is sexist, speciesist, genocidal and religiously intolerant, just because they thought that they wouldn't get the impression of evil from mass murder. It seems that they were right (and I threw up a little just saying that) but apparently all that sledgehammering just doesn't make an imprint in some people's skulls.

Oh, wait! I forgot that if we cherry-pick and twist our sources, the Empire is actually good!

No the Empire is bad. But fighting against the bad guy do not make you the good one. So the situation for SW:

The Empire is ruled by the most powerful and evilest Sith Lord, who have to be overthrown no matter of the cost, thus the Rebels are a better option than the Empire ruled by Palpatine*, but that does not change the fact that the Rebels managed to create a disfunctional state (they showed quite an amount of inability during YV invasion).

*compared to Palpatine even a YV occupied Galaxy is a better option

[Bakustra]

While I believe that you may have a point, I highly doubt that a Moff ruling that section of the outer rim would let his worlds fall without any fight. Due to the increased militarization of the GE versus the NR he would have more forces to repel the enemy with. This may not be enough, but even an outer rim Moff will have those that would help him for a price.

As for the Palpatine building up for the Vong, IIRC, it was stated in NJO that he knew of their coming. This doesn't mean he would stop them, but if he chose to he had more warning than the NR did. Also just because he lets some piddly aliens, who couldn't fight off a gimped fleet at Bakura, raid in exchange for some goodies doesn't mean that he would let entire world fall when saving them will further his aims and slow rebellion. An example would be the US funding radicals that can't do any major damage to the nation and using that to explain why they wouldn't fight back a Russia invasion.

A Moff would have at best 24 Star Destroyers, but more likely less, if we go by the 25,000 number. Furthermore, without an organized response, they can focus on one sector at a time and carve out holdings for themselves. Once they have a foothold, then they can begin construction in earnest, with only piecemeal attacks to worry about. This is, of course, assuming that they are an actual threat.

However, in the NJO, who said that Palpatine was aware of their approach? Was it someone who knew him personally? Because if not, we then move into the realm of in-universe speculation. Even if he did, if the Vong are so pathetic in comparison to the Empire, then the comparison is fairly apt; after all, if they can only seize a handful of worlds before being stopped, then he can come to a deal easily. If they are dangerous, such that a mobilization of the Empire would be necessary to defeat them, then we run into the problem of mobilizing the Empire in the first place.

[Shroom Man 777]

Compared to the lot of them, the Old Republic was a fucking pair-of-dice.

[Norade]

It's 7am here and I haven't yet slept so I'm going to be back to this when I get back up. Just didn't want to up and leave people wondering if I'd run off.

[Darth Fanboy]

Nice to see the Pro-Empire Retard Brigade is back out in force.

Imperial Atrocities Thread.

Rogue Jedi Thread

We've been up and down this fucking road before. Where the Imperial Apologists toot the horn of Imperial Benevolence and act as if the Jedi and subsequent incarnations of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic are murdering evil psychopaths bent on galactic destruction. Meanwhile, the Empire wasn't bad save for Rogue elements who only really killed a fraction of the galaxy's total population. But hey, Alderaan, they were all traitors to an oppressive government, blowing up the planet seems reasonable yes?

Get fucked you clowns.

[TC Pilot]

Oh goodie, another round of shrill appeals to emotion. Typical response of the butt-hurt whiney fanboy.

[bz249]

Nice to see the Pro-Empire Retard Brigade is back out in force.

Imperial Atrocities Thread.

Rogue Jedi Thread

We've been up and down this fucking road before. Where the Imperial Apologists toot the horn of Imperial Benevolence and act as if the Jedi and subsequent incarnations of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic are murdering evil psychopaths bent on galactic destruction. Meanwhile, the Empire wasn't bad save for Rogue elements who only really killed a fraction of the galaxy's total population. But hey, Alderaan, they were all traitors to an oppressive government, blowing up the planet seems reasonable yes?

Get fucked you clowns.

1.) Alderaan was a major insurgent supply base, a perfectly legitimate military target. Here is the wiki site of the NATO bombings of Novi Sad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_ ... f_Novi_Sad

Bridges, electricity plants (powering hospitals also), oil refineries, TV transmitters. In a war anything with the potential of military use is a legitimate target.

Or take this one, the genocidical Clinton ordered strikes against a pharmaceutical plant, because it is suspected as a covert chem weapon factory. Missile strikes against targets in Afghanistan (supposed terrorist training camps) were also carried out.

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9808/20/us.strikes.02/

Don't forget the scale: 1 out of 1.000.000 member states. The destruction of the Alderaan is equivalent as the destruction of for example Nottuln, Nord-Rhein-Westphalia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottuln

2.) Palpatine was the evilest Sith Lord of all time, who has to be stopped no matter of the cost, and one should join the first group which is capable of that. In their war agains the Empire the Rebels were the good guy, since they were the only group with a decent enough chance to kill that bastard. So siding with the Rebels is the morally just action.

3.) Fighting against an oppressive regime does not make anyone a competent administrator, the Rebels were incredibly untalaneted in ruling the Galaxy after they took it over.

[Shroom Man 777]

So there were Rebels in Alderaan... this means we should blow up the entire planet, including the homes, schools, toilets, playpens, pigpens, and all other non-combatant places in the entire planet with thousands/millions/billions of innocents on it? And somehow this is OK? Not to mention, Alderaan was a world that belonged to the Galactic Empire, since apparently it also has senators representing it in the Senate (Leia), and yet it gets blown up on a whimsy?

Wow.

[Bellosh101]

But..... Alderaan's defense systems were as strong as any in the Empire. The only way to stop Alderaan from supporting insurgent activities was to destroy it with a weapon that could penetrate Alderaan's shield (which means collateral damage must be incurred).

[Shroom Man 777]

You know, there could've been other alternatives aside from blowing the fuck out of the planet without even any warning, without a peep, just on the whimsies of Tarkin and Vader without any declaration or ultimatum or without any diplomatic overtures or any some such shit that can be a decent alternative to the mass murder of countless thousands/millions/billions of human and non-human lives? Oh, of course apologists would just shrug it off as if it's nothing, oh XYZ-billion space jews exterminated from their entire planet is just a drop in a bucket of ABC-quintiminimillion sentient beings in the galaxy, lol, makes it all A-OK. Hah. Wouldn't the fact that Alderaan was englobing itself in a planetary shield mean that nothing can go in or out of the entire world, hence disallowing it from supporting any insurgent activity at all (if the shields are up, and if nothing can go in or out, then how can Rebel craps get in or out, how can Alderaan support the rebels then?)? You wouldn't need some Death Star blowing the fuck out of that world. Put a bunch of Star Destroyers, call it a peacekeeping/containment/freedomizing/patrol/counter-insurgency operation and have them blockade the world - shit, the Trade fucking Federation full of bucktoothed cross-eyed Seriously Elephantine Nemoidians Acting Tough on Everyone (SENATE) did that to fucking Naboo full of fucking Jar-Jars. The fact that it wasn't some Space Iraq full of Space Brown People, but an actual-factual member nation of the Empire represented in the Senate by a Senator (Leia) prior to the Senate's disbandment means that, you know, for any civil decent moral sane humane proper power with any respect for human or non-human life, some attempt at negotiation or dialog should've been attempted? Hell, snuffing out all those people wasn't even a bigass decision in some bigass war room meeting, it was just Tarkin's whimsy, no paperwork, no conference, no discussion or great bigass contemplation regarding the wholesale slaughter of the Alderaanian people - just, poof, a sudden urge of genocide that a genocidal fuck acts on as if it was nothing, as if all those lives were worthless, not even worth a single moment's consideration.

That's what you people want to replace the New Republic? That's what you think is the "better option" compared to a "failed" state? The Empire doesn't even get an "F" for "Fail". It gets "F" for "Fuck off and die". Call the New Republic a incompetent failed state? Well, an Empire that can only maintain its cohesion through fear, through the threat of wholesale genocide and planetary destruction, is a government and a nation and a state that fully classifies and fits the definition as a failed state full of incompetent fuckfaced shits. The New Republic, for all its shit, didn't need to sink that low to maintain its government, its statehood, nor the way of life of the people it served and protected. Even if the NR scores less in the rankings of flaccid militaristic-fetishizing limp bitches who need to see men in uniforms and giant metal balls in space ejaculating green shit lasers to get hard ons, it's still a way better nation/state than the Empire'll ever be.

[Tiriol]

The whole argument of the New Republic killing more people than the Galactic Empire is a scenario of "blame the victim": the brutal devastation that was done by the Imperials after Palpatine's death during the Battle of Endor was because of the Imperials, not because of the Rebels. Of course, one can claim that the Empire wouldn't have done their post-Endor atrocities without a Rebel presence in the galaxy, just like one can claim that Nazi concentration camps, Soviet gulags etc. wouldn't have come to be without the presence of undesirable elements within those societies. But it's just shifting the blame from the perpetrator. And destruction done by the Empire during the Dark Empire saga and immediately before it is solely Palpatine and his Operation Shadow Hand's fault; even the Imperial Civil War wouldn't have happened and Coruscant wouldn't have been reduced to a pile of rubble without Palpatine NOT interfering with his sociopathic underlings' psychotic warfare against each other. Even the short-lived Imperial Interim Ruling Council and its leader, Carnor Jax, continued the merry "slaughter anybody even remotely related to your source of troubles" way (like Jax ordering a Star Destroyer to bombard an unshielded planet because the Rebels had one stronghold there; an atrocity only stopped by the sudden appearance of NRS Lusankya). Quite frankly, a lot of the damage done after Endor could have been avoided if there had been a Senate to elect a new leader but no, Palpatine designed his whole regime so that without him, it would quickly degenerate and collapse. Even The Essential Atlas noted that the Empire, as designed by Palpatine, needed a strong, charismatic leader at the top, or else it wouldn't work. In fact, based on General Tagge's line about Rebels getting more and more support in the Senate, it's possible that if Palpatine would have died and the Senate would still have been around, there might have been a far more peaceful outcome in which the Republic could have been restored without decade or so of bloodshed.

And let's take a closer look at the Vong invasion: the current claim is that the Empire would have dealt with it more competently than the New Republic. Actually, I think that is true - but I also think that it is wrong to claim that because of that the New Republic is responsible for all the deaths the Vong caused. The YUUZHAN VONG, not the New Republic, killed those people. Or maybe the advocates of "blame the NR" argument also think that it is Poland's fault that Germany defeated it in WWII and that Poland should have remained part of the Russian Empire? Quite frankly, and let me borrow an oft-used saying around here: "fuck that shit." The Empire most likely could have destroyed the Vong or at least defeated them, but that would have come at the price of two decades' worth of tyranny by sociopathic megalomaniacs who get their jollies out of constructing planet-destroying weapons of mass destruction and gleefully using them. Not only that, but those two crazed theocrats also happened to surround themselves with twisted psychopaths who were just as cruel as them (ROTJ novelization notes that even Moff Jerjerrod, the man in charge of the second Death Star, had the bright idea of blowing up the Sanctuary Moon just to spite the Rebels in their hour of triumph; and he was pretty level-headed as far as the Imperial elite go, especially when compared with criminals like Jerec, Hethrir, Tarkin, Isards etc.) and who wielded considerable power within the Imperial space. These caring inviduals thought nothing about enslaving species, exploiting vulnerable worlds (or blowing them up, just to be sure), arresting, torturing and brainwashing people on political grounds, wiping out entire cities, continents and planets to make a point etc. If the psychopaths running the show during the OT would stay (and they most certainly would) in charge of the show before the Vong arrived, the alien species would be in even more troublesome situation than they already were and basic human rights, as we understand them, would amount to a dog's excrement. And do not dare to drag in the old argument of "most people were quite happy with the Imperial rule!" when it has been made clear that the Core Worlds were, in fact, shielded from the hardships of the rest of the galaxy and that the Empire was more willing to go apeshit in the outer galaxy - and even that didn't stop the atrocity known as "Alderaan's destruction". Alderaan, one of the oldest known Human settlements and a respected Core World, got blown up because there happened to be Rebels there and the Empire didn't want to besiege it because it would take too long.

In fact, I want to pose a question: does anyone think that after having a couple of decades of such loving and tender centralized rule, the worlds that were part of the New Republic, would want to keep such an apparatus in control? They might me a little bit leery of such government and desire a more de-centralized way of doing things (since that would reduce the chance of their own galactic government coming up with a new Body Part of Palpatine superweapon to blow things up just to be a big meanie). The Neo-Republican military WAS competent, but the Neo-Republican politicians probably didn't want a powerful military and a strong, centralized government running things so they kept the military pretty weak (and unfortunately also refused to take action when seriously threatened, until it was almost too late). The galaxy had experienced a de-centralized government for almost a thousand years and then, over a couple of years, it became a centralized one thanks to a separatist movement. Everything went pretty swell, until that centralized government changed the government form from a republic into a constitutional monarchy (at first) and started to walk the road to hell (considering that the first actions of the new-born Empire was to annihilate an entire order of sentient beings, not only to dissolve it; and that was just the beginning, thanks to "rebellious" species getting enslaved). They just might not like the notion of a stong, centralized government.

But..... Alderaan's defense systems were as strong as any in the Empire. The only way to stop Alderaan from supporting insurgent activities was to destroy it with a weapon that could penetrate Alderaan's shield (which means collateral damage must be incurred).

I pray to God above that this is an ironic statement. As I noted above, the Imperials could just have laid a siege on Alderaan and thus cut it off of the rest of the galaxy (good luck trying to fund an insurrection or do anything else if you can't even contact anybody else). They CAN do it: the HoloNet is the Imperial state's to run as they see fit (access to it was incredibly restricted) and physically getting in or out of Alderaan might be pretty problematic if there is an Imperial fleet surrounding it with strict orders of "nobody's going anywhere". Then there's also the possibility, if the authorities suspect Alderaan enough, to bombard the shield until at least a part of it goes down and send in the troops (like the Outer Rim sieges only two decades ago). But that would be time-consuming, so why bother: let's just blow things up and call it a day and score some points for Doctrine of Fear.

[Shroom Man 777]

Damn, Triol!

Also, note that the money spent on creating the DSes could've constructed XYZ-more ISDs and while they may not have the combined firepower to blow apart a planetary shield, more warships and more men and more materials will totally be more capable of handling COIN operations and hearts and minds and galaxy-building and freedomizing missions (decently, humanely, and civily) than a bigass fuckoff death station meant only for the sole purpose of genocide. Fuck it, the Death Star's like the ultimate evolution of the extermination camp, the gas chamber, and the ovens combined!

[bz249]

So there were Rebels in Alderaan... this means we should blow up the entire planet, including the homes, schools, toilets, playpens, pigpens, and all other non-combatant places in the entire planet with thousands/millions/billions of innocents on it? And somehow this is OK? Not to mention, Alderaan was a world that belonged to the Galactic Empire, since apparently it also has senators representing it in the Senate (Leia), and yet it gets blown up on a whimsy?

Wow.

Well the USAF have bombed bridges, power plants (they knocked out the water supply of the Novi Sad cardiology clinic) and not in the distant past, but eleven years ago.

In WWII they dropped two nuclear bombs to two Japanese cities to shorten the war. Before that they created artificial firestorms in Hamburg killing at least 50.000 civilians and make destroying 250.000 homes, since it was an important German industrial center. Those actions resulted in much higher casualities relative to the total population than the destruction of the Alderaan.

Earlier, in the Civil War Union troops deliberately target civilian infrastructure in the Atlanta and Shenandoah Valley campaign to reduce the warfighting ability of the South.

And they were the good guys in those campaigns.

Yes war is hell and most military commander would easily pick a path which results in an earlier victory with less casuality on his side. From a pure warfighting point of view demonstrating the ability and willingness to destroy any world which supports the insurgents is a prudent decision. This alone does not make the Empire evil, only harsh.

The fact that the Empire is evil we know from other sources.

[bz249]

Damn, Triol!

Also, note that the money spent on creating the DSes could've constructed XYZ-more ISDs and while they may not have the combined firepower to blow apart a planetary shield, more warships and more men and more materials will totally be more capable of handling COIN operations and hearts and minds and galaxy-building and freedomizing missions (decently, humanely, and civily) than a bigass fuckoff death station meant only for the sole purpose of genocide. Fuck it, the Death Star's like the ultimate evolution of the extermination camp, the gas chamber, and the ovens combined!

No the Death Star is the ultimate evolution of the weapons of mass destructions and the principal goal of the Death Star is deterrence.