The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I'm curious about the use of tank-transporters for shifting them around. Is there some advantage to them over a flat-bed trunk? Are angels just really that heavy that they need it?

My guess would be that the tank transporters were just what was on hand, the force at the concentration camp is an armored column, after all.

[Edward Yee]

2- Belial is captured and spills his beans.

Most likely won't get the chance to just because of what he's behind... not to mention that, if he did survive long enough to spill the beans, it'd probably be considered politically inconvenient for the HEA and thus covered up.

[Tamahori]

I'm curious about the use of tank-transporters for shifting them around. Is there some advantage to them over a flat-bed trunk? Are angels just really that heavy that they need it?

My guess would be that the tank transporters were just what was on hand, the force at the concentration camp is an armored column, after all.

It was also what they used with the pair showed up on Earth as well. They could have just been the closest thing to hand of course. I just find it a bit interesting that they are using hardware designed to move 60 - 70 ton pieces of hardware around as ambulances. (Okay, that doesn't mean that the angels way even close to that of course).

-- Brett

[JBG]

I find it interesting that the reporter is describing the concentration camp in Heaven as the worst ever, even compared to Auschwitz. That seems like she would say that at any concentration camp as propaganda. From the descriptions of the camp, it still sounds second class compared the the absurd amounts of cruelty that humans afflict on each other, even for political reasons. Belial could take lessons from the SS or the Khmer Rouge. Not even a Grand Duke of the underworld is as good at creating Hell as human beings are.

These angels are political prisoners. Most of the initial inmates of the Nazi concentration camps were political prisoners. There were over 20,000 when the war officially broke out. The mass incarceration of Jews came later.

Please remember this is a TV journalist speaking. Since when did one of them know what they were talking about or get anything substantially right? Yes, I agree with everything both of you say and if I was speaking as a hired talking head on TV, I'd be saying exactly what you are. But I'm not. The speaking character is a TV bimbo who was probably doing the weather forecast six months ago and will be doing the sports results in six months time. It would be horrendously out of character for her to produce anything other than rather hackneyed imagery. Concentration camp - - - Auschwitz. Massacre - - - - Rwanda. Please remember, in any story, characters speak for themselves, not for the author. They get things wrong, they make mistakes, they say things that would cause the author to strangle himself if he tried to do the same. The criteria is always would the character say this, not would the author say this or this is right or even I agree with this.

I think it's just - and no offense Stuart - that the author isn't really good at describing scenes of soul-crushing horror and cruelty, so it becomes an informed attribute. All the characters are reacting to this camp in a way that suggests Elie Wiesel's Night, but it isn't actually described much to the reader, nor is the plight of the angels within

Oh, I can do the soul-crushing horror bit but I think its much more effective if one doesn't. It's better left to the reader's imagination; concentrate on a superficial description, record people's reaction to it and let the reader's imagination do the rest. They'll put their own personal horrors into there and the result is so much better.

That worked very well with TBO. The deaths of many cities were represented by the failing comms and the burst of static that ruptured eardrums in the control centre of the air defence network of the Reich. Suggestion can be extremely powerful. And extremely useful when the canvas is large.

[nobody_really]

So, I guess Angels don't heal as well as Lesser Heralds (Memnon, specifically) or it seems the doctors would have simply cut off Maion's wings and let them grow back. That sucks for them.

Also, since no second lifers will grow older, it would really, really suck to be a kid, because you would probably never be able to take care of yourself, probably have a limited ability to learn anything new, and be stuck like that for multiple, multiple millennia. As far as gits not getting their trust fund, it seems like it would be easily handled by having them wait until twenty-one years after their birth date. Tell the lawyers arguing otherwise to take a hike. If the second lifer kid is too young to administer it properly, then put it in the hands of the trustee until the trustee joins him/her.

[Simon_Jester]

It was also what they used with the pair showed up on Earth as well. They could have just been the closest thing to hand of course. I just find it a bit interesting that they are using hardware designed to move 60 - 70 ton pieces of hardware around as ambulances. (Okay, that doesn't mean that the angels way even close to that of course).

They're not heavy; they're big. Really, really big, and you don't want to try and curl them up or anything when their legs are broken. So you need a fair amount of space, and tank transporters are good for that.

[Sute]

Also, since no second lifers will grow older, it would really, really suck to be a kid, because you would probably never be able to take care of yourself, probably have a limited ability to learn anything new, and be stuck like that for multiple, multiple millennia. As far as gits not getting their trust fund, it seems like it would be easily handled by having them wait until twenty-one years after their birth date. Tell the lawyers arguing otherwise to take a hike. If the second lifer kid is too young to administer it properly, then put it in the hands of the trustee until the trustee joins him/her.

Actually, it's been stated that people who die young do age (more slowly than normal) up until they reach somewhere around middle age. So children will get the chance to grow up now that demons aren't eating them anymore. Though now that I'm thinking about it, I have to wonder if that applies to the results of miscarriages and abortions...

[nobody_really]

Also, since no second lifers will grow older, it would really, really suck to be a kid, because you would probably never be able to take care of yourself, probably have a limited ability to learn anything new, and be stuck like that for multiple, multiple millennia. As far as gits not getting their trust fund, it seems like it would be easily handled by having them wait until twenty-one years after their birth date. Tell the lawyers arguing otherwise to take a hike. If the second lifer kid is too young to administer it properly, then put it in the hands of the trustee until the trustee joins him/her.

Actually, it's been stated that people who die young do age (more slowly than normal) up until they reach somewhere around middle age. So children will get the chance to grow up now that demons aren't eating them anymore. Though now that I'm thinking about it, I have to wonder if that applies to the results of miscarriages and abortions...

Thanks for the info. I don't remember reading that. Was it in the discussion for Armageddon??? or the first 40 chapters of Pantheocide? I remember reading that people who died old would be put back in younger bodies (women pre-menopause and men in 50's) but not that they aged after that. If that's the case, I don't see why that wouldn't apply for abortions (spontaneous or induced.) But how the underdeveloped fetuses and embryos survive is something that sounds pretty damned squicky to me.

[Saint_007]

So, Belial's back to Hell? Back to trying to take over?

Poor dumb demon lord. He. Just. Doesn't. Get. It. Euryale got what it meant to take on the humans (through her underling) and turned on him to save herself. Michael-Lan got it and he's practically opened Heaven's doors for the humans to march in.

My guess is that Belial will use the size of Hell as defense, gathering forces while striking blows against Hell-side and Earth-side humans. His lightning cannons might work against tanks, but as they say, that's only going to make the humans hit harder. In fact, given how Captain Chewbacca shot me down over possible insurgencies in Hell, I'm thinking he's right; the Demon Lords who are now working with the humans would try to infiltrate Belial's plans and turn him in. Like Col. Stevenson said, 'we'll get him eventually'.

As for Lemuel's epiphany regarding Michael's complicity in Maion's capture; yeah, it's a big leap. Michael-Lan made damn sure he had nothing to connect him with the angels who kidnapped her, or those who put her on trial. Those who did know were silenced (the kidnappers) or put in surefire suicide missions (defending the concentration camp?). Besides, does Lemuel even know of Michael-Lan's role in running the Temple of Eternal Worship (or whatever Michael's night-club was called) unless Maion told him anything? Even then, I doubt she'd know Michael had given Lemuel Gatorade laced with opiates or spiked the incense with mace. Looking back, the only ones who would tell on Mike are (a) dead or going to be, like so many of Yahweh's loyalists or (b) stand to benefit greatly from sticking with him (or would suffer greatly if he were uncovered and/or disgraced) like those at the Monmartre(sp?) club.

[weemadando]

Also, since no second lifers will grow older, it would really, really suck to be a kid, because you would probably never be able to take care of yourself, probably have a limited ability to learn anything new, and be stuck like that for multiple, multiple millennia. As far as gits not getting their trust fund, it seems like it would be easily handled by having them wait until twenty-one years after their birth date. Tell the lawyers arguing otherwise to take a hike. If the second lifer kid is too young to administer it properly, then put it in the hands of the trustee until the trustee joins him/her.

Actually, it's been stated that people who die young do age (more slowly than normal) up until they reach somewhere around middle age. So children will get the chance to grow up now that demons aren't eating them anymore. Though now that I'm thinking about it, I have to wonder if that applies to the results of miscarriages and abortions...

Thanks for the info. I don't remember reading that. Was it in the discussion for Armageddon??? or the first 40 chapters of Pantheocide? I remember reading that people who died old would be put back in younger bodies (women pre-menopause and men in 50's) but not that they aged after that. If that's the case, I don't see why that wouldn't apply for abortions (spontaneous or induced.) But how the underdeveloped fetuses and embryos survive is something that sounds pretty damned squicky to me.

How much of that situation is even public knowledge now? I know that I deliberately skirted the issue in the draft I sent to Stuart because I wasn't sure what the plan was. We know that people can survive in hell without food, water etc so it would be possible for them to survive without the massive interventions required for premature babies in reality. So is there somewhere a massive, deeply covert facility where all the fetuses etc go to mature before being released as "newborns"/"third trimester miscarriage" cases?

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

It was also what they used with the pair showed up on Earth as well. They could have just been the closest thing to hand of course. I just find it a bit interesting that they are using hardware designed to move 60 - 70 ton pieces of hardware around as ambulances. (Okay, that doesn't mean that the angels way even close to that of course).

They're not heavy; they're big. Really, really big, and you don't want to try and curl them up or anything when their legs are broken. So you need a fair amount of space, and tank transporters are good for that.

Also, is there really much differance between a tank transporter and a flatbed semi? Because I see Bradleys being moved on flatbed semis on a fairly regular basis. I know Bradleys aren't as large as actual tanks, but they're in that ballpark.

[Tamahori]

It was also what they used with the pair showed up on Earth as well. They could have just been the closest thing to hand of course. I just find it a bit interesting that they are using hardware designed to move 60 - 70 ton pieces of hardware around as ambulances. (Okay, that doesn't mean that the angels way even close to that of course).

They're not heavy; they're big. Really, really big, and you don't want to try and curl them up or anything when their legs are broken. So you need a fair amount of space, and tank transporters are good for that.

That's a good point, standard civilian semi-trailers don't tend to be flat-beds, and you want a flat bed, what with all the wings and stuff. I have achieved understanding.

Hmm, as somebody else points out, angels seem to have worse healing capability then Memnon, his wings were in a state that made Maion's look perfect. Though I'm not sure if even all Demons have healing abilities that good. I expect Lemuel would probably not take "Okay, so we'll take her wings off with this surgical saw here, and she'll just grow them back." as a healing method all that well. I wonder if more powerful angels have better healing ... Urial managed to get patched up from some very brutal levels of damage before he made the mistake of coming back for a second round.

Hmmm, depending on Second Lifer healing abilities (they seem to come back from dramatic levels of it at times) any of them with a seriously sub S&M bent could probably make a lot of money in hell-based clubs. I kind of expect Michael is already in on that business (in Heaven) given there was a standardized fee for beating up Maion, and while that was a scripted sequence, I don't think the existence of the fee was made up for Lemuel's benefit.

The afterlife, bringing all new kinds of truly horrible concepts.

-- Brett

[Emerson33260]

Until a few chapters ago, I was under the impression that given enough time, an angel would heal from any injury not immediately fatal. Now that this is established as not being so, I am struck by the fact that Yahoo must have had for at least the last few thousand years an office devoted to the disposal of those horrible, depressing, distressingly ugly people who have been picturesquely maimed in his temper tantrums. We have followed Michael long enough to know the officer is not him, so who?

On the other hand, if such an "Office of Beautification" does exist, it may be that nobody knows whether severely crippled victims will heal, since none have been given the time....

Gah! I'll keep reading and find out, I guess.

[Stuart]

So, I guess Angels don't heal as well as Lesser Heralds (Memnon, specifically) or it seems the doctors would have simply cut off Maion's wings and let them grow back. That sucks for them.

Spoiler

Memnon will be re-appearing shortly. At the moment, remember he was dealt with by an Army hospital in hell, this is a Navy hospital on Earth

[Scorpion]

Michael-Lan made damn sure he had nothing to connect him with the angels who kidnapped her, or those who put her on trial. Those who did know were silenced (the kidnappers) or put in surefire suicide missions (defending the concentration camp?). (...) Looking back, the only ones who would tell on Mike are (a) dead or going to be, like so many of Yahweh's loyalists or (b) stand to benefit greatly from sticking with him (or would suffer greatly if he were uncovered and/or disgraced) like those at the Monmartre(sp?) club.

Like all plans, all it's necessary for it to fail is for something not to go as Mike predicted.

Murphy's law murphy's law murphy's law murphy's law murphy's lawmurphyslawmurphyslawmurphyslawmurphyslawmurphyslawmurphyslawmurphyslaw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ruadhan2300]

so stuart, are we to see an Airforce hospital in heaven? XD

hey, cool, elemental militaries. Hell is earth, fire and ground-pounders. Earth is largely water, so navy. hell is a place full of light airy spaces...so airforce...huh. that works somehow. can't see how it'd fit in at all, but the image is nice.

[Simon_Jester]

So, Belial's back to Hell? Back to trying to take over?

Poor dumb demon lord. He. Just. Doesn't. Get. It. Euryale got what it meant to take on the humans (through her underling) and turned on him to save herself. Michael-Lan got it and he's practically opened Heaven's doors for the humans to march in.

My guess is that Belial will use the size of Hell as defense, gathering forces while striking blows against Hell-side and Earth-side humans. His lightning cannons might work against tanks, but as they say, that's only going to make the humans hit harder. In fact, given how Captain Chewbacca shot me down over possible insurgencies in Hell, I'm thinking he's right; the Demon Lords who are now working with the humans would try to infiltrate Belial's plans and turn him in. Like Col. Stevenson said, 'we'll get him eventually'.

Well, that's sort of a given; it doesn't require much change of mindset to convince a demon lord to betray someone...

Also, is there really much differance between a tank transporter and a flatbed semi? Because I see Bradleys being moved on flatbed semis on a fairly regular basis. I know Bradleys aren't as large as actual tanks, but they're in that ballpark.

I'm sure you could move an angel on a flatbed, if you have one to hand. An armored batallion will have tank transporters to hand; flatbeds have to wait until they can be brought up.

Hmm, as somebody else points out, angels seem to have worse healing capability then Memnon, his wings were in a state that made Maion's look perfect. Though I'm not sure if even all Demons have healing abilities that good. I expect Lemuel would probably not take "Okay, so we'll take her wings off with this surgical saw here, and she'll just grow them back." as a healing method all that well. I wonder if more powerful angels have better healing ...

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the human doctors were analyzing her injuries in human terms. A human whose joints had been that badly damaged would never move them properly again; that doesn't prove much.

They're treating her as if she's a human patient. A big patient with wings, but still a human. Whereas Memnon (and the other demons of Abigor's captured force) were being treated under a somewhat more brutal model, with overtones of "let's see just how much you can recover from" and "go on, horned boy, look at me funny. Spit on the ground. Give me an excuse." Because they were an invasion force; Maion was a refugee.

So they may be underestimating just what she can recover from with decent reconstructive surgery for lack of experience with demonic/angelic physiology.

Urial managed to get patched up from some very brutal levels of damage before he made the mistake of coming back for a second round.

Third round. First time he got hit with a Patriot battery. Second time he got run over by an AEGIS cruiser. Third time he got lased.

[westrim]

Hmm, as somebody else points out, angels seem to have worse healing capability then Memnon, his wings were in a state that made Maion's look perfect. Though I'm not sure if even all Demons have healing abilities that good. I expect Lemuel would probably not take "Okay, so we'll take her wings off with this surgical saw here, and she'll just grow them back." as a healing method all that well. I wonder if more powerful angels have better healing ...

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the human doctors were analyzing her injuries in human terms. A human whose joints had been that badly damaged would never move them properly again; that doesn't prove much.

They're treating her as if she's a human patient. A big patient with wings, but still a human. Whereas Memnon (and the other demons of Abigor's captured force) were being treated under a somewhat more brutal model, with overtones of "let's see just how much you can recover from" and "go on, horned boy, look at me funny. Spit on the ground. Give me an excuse." Because they were an invasion force; Maion was a refugee.

So they may be underestimating just what she can recover from with decent reconstructive surgery for lack of experience with demonic/angelic physiology.

It's been quite clearly stated multiple times from the angelic point of view that these are potentially flight- if not life- threatening injuries. They're broken in such a way that their natural healiing doesn't set things back the right way.

[Valiran]

Hmm, as somebody else points out, angels seem to have worse healing capability then Memnon, his wings were in a state that made Maion's look perfect. Though I'm not sure if even all Demons have healing abilities that good. I expect Lemuel would probably not take "Okay, so we'll take her wings off with this surgical saw here, and she'll just grow them back." as a healing method all that well. I wonder if more powerful angels have better healing ...

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the human doctors were analyzing her injuries in human terms. A human whose joints had been that badly damaged would never move them properly again; that doesn't prove much.

They're treating her as if she's a human patient. A big patient with wings, but still a human. Whereas Memnon (and the other demons of Abigor's captured force) were being treated under a somewhat more brutal model, with overtones of "let's see just how much you can recover from" and "go on, horned boy, look at me funny. Spit on the ground. Give me an excuse." Because they were an invasion force; Maion was a refugee.

So they may be underestimating just what she can recover from with decent reconstructive surgery for lack of experience with demonic/angelic physiology.

It's been quite clearly stated multiple times from the angelic point of view that these are potentially flight- if not life- threatening injuries. They're broken in such a way that their natural healiing doesn't set things back the right way.

Cheer up, Maion! In a couple decades we'll have nanotechnology that can fix your wings until they're good as new!

[Simon_Jester]

It's been quite clearly stated multiple times from the angelic point of view that these are potentially flight- if not life- threatening injuries. They're broken in such a way that their natural healiing doesn't set things back the right way.

That was before the reconstructive surgery.

There are a lot of ways to damage human bones and joints so that they will never heal properly on their own with medieval medical support. With modern orthopedic surgery, some of those injuries do heal, allowing the patient to recover much more function.

Angels have greatly superhuman healing capabilities. It may be that an injury that on a human would be crippling even after expert reconstructive surgery will heal for them. Again, we have the examples of what happened to Uriel- when Normandy hit him with those SAMs he suffered severe shrapnel damage to one eye and his wings were pretty well shredded:

"Uriel screamed as the tungsten carbide fragments slashed into his body. They ripped into his skin, splattering silver blood into the air, tore at his wings, shredding the flying surfaces and cracking the bones open. His vision suddenly shrank as fragments tore out one of his eyes and scoured across his body."

And he seems to have pretty much recovered from that... with benefit of care from a pair of surgeons who were not high-grade specialists in reconstructive surgery. When he made the final, fatal attack on Los Angeles, his wings were still weak, but I don't remember any mention of him still suffering from the eye injuries. Or the massive burns from Normandy's target designation radar.

I suspect that Maion's ability to recover from injuries with benefit of reconstructive surgery would amaze both angels (who are used to medieval medical techniques that are limited to splinting injured joints) and human surgeons (who are used to patients with much less innate ability to heal).

Whether that means full recovery... well, I'm not saying it does.

[Erra]

That's a good point Simon_Jester, I totally agree.

Could someone clear something up for me? Do the angels and daemons healing powers work better or only in Universe-2? As in, if they shipped Maion to a hospital in heaven, would she heal much faster than spending the same amount of time on earth?

I thought I remembered something to that effect, but I'm not sure.

[Stuart]

That's a good point Simon_Jester, I totally agree. Could someone clear something up for me? Do the angels and daemons healing powers work better or only in Universe-2? As in, if they shipped Maion to a hospital in heaven, would she heal much faster than spending the same amount of time on earth? I thought I remembered something to that effect, but I'm not sure.

Angelic and daemonic healing powers work as well on Earth as they do in Heaven and Hell. The problem with Maion is that her wings were broken the same way the IRA in Northern Ireland used to break kneecaps after reconstructive surgeons learned how to repair damage from gunshots and power drills. They got two large slabs of concere and placed them a with about 18 inches Then, the victim's leg (or wing in this case) was stretched over the gap and a third block of concrete dropped from several feet up. The effect was to reduce what had been a joint to an 18-inch long section of pea-sized bone fragments. Usually the tendons and ligaments were severed as well and there was massive nerve damage. Quite irreperable.

Maion and Lemuel have important parts yet to play though.

[Rahvin]

That's a good point Simon_Jester, I totally agree.

Could someone clear something up for me? Do the angels and daemons healing powers work better or only in Universe-2? As in, if they shipped Maion to a hospital in heaven, would she heal much faster than spending the same amount of time on earth?

I thought I remembered something to that effect, but I'm not sure.

I would think that in the case of an injury like the ones being considered, where the entire purpose is to make the injury heal wrong so that function is impaired or destroyed, that an increased healing speed would be a detriment as it would cause the joints to heal incorrectly before they could be treated with surgery.

A simple broken bone that heals crooked can be re-broken and re-set correctly with a splint. A joint is far more complicated than an individual bone, and a joint smashed into fragments is far worse than a clean break. You can't just re-smash Maion's wing joints to restart the healing process - you can't break the joint in the same way it was broken before because the injury is too complex, it would be horribly painful to the patient, and would produce little likelihood of an increased benefit. Some damage, I would anticipate, has already been done simply because the injury has already started to heal, and that damage may be irreversible.

The only solution I can think of would be amputation. Angelic and Demonic healing has (as I recall) been sufficiently strong to completely replace lost body parts (like Uriel's eye). If that's the case, the best option may be simply to amputate Maion's wings and allow them to regrow naturally under medical supervision.

[Manthor]

Shite.All this talk of kneecapping gets me wincing.I broke my right knee cap in a bike stunt about when I was 15.Now I'm 24.Healed now and I actually did Muay Thai for a few years when I was in the SAF for my conscription.

Found an interesting article about kneecapping:

http://www.aliciapatterson.org/APF0305/ ... onroy.html

So I guess thats where that comes in.

I have to say that I really enjoy this story though its a pity that I don't have a credit card yet or I would order a printed copy for myself from the US.This story is the reason I signed up on Stardestroyer.That and I also come from Comic Book Rumbles and heard mentioning of this board.So here I am.

Hey Stuart - great job.Without violating any OPSEC what exactly is your defence background?Were you a civilian contractor all the way in the defence industry or did you spend time in the uniform? Is your background Army,Navy,Air Force, Marines or were you a part of the military bureaucracy?

You are extremely knowledgeable about a fair number of things and very broad in scope so I'm guessing that you were a civilian contractor with some former uniformed service time under your belt.Am I correct? My only exposure in the military really was serving as a Signaller in the Signal Platoon of a Combat Engineer battalion in Singapore.And I spent some time in Kanchanaburi training with the Royal Thai Army on attachment with another combat engineer unit.

[Simon_Jester]

Angelic and daemonic healing powers work as well on Earth as they do in Heaven and Hell. The problem with Maion is that her wings were broken the same way the IRA in Northern Ireland used to break kneecaps after reconstructive surgeons learned how to repair damage from gunshots and power drills. They got two large slabs of concere and placed them a with about 18 inches Then, the victim's leg (or wing in this case) was stretched over the gap and a third block of concrete dropped from several feet up. The effect was to reduce what had been a joint to an 18-inch long section of pea-sized bone fragments. Usually the tendons and ligaments were severed as well and there was massive nerve damage. Quite irreperable.

In the general case, yes. But you've established angelic healing powers to the point where, even knowing the damage mechanism, I'd wonder about it.

Certainly the healing powers alone wouldn't restore the damage; it would heal horribly crooked, stiffened, and useless. And reconstructive surgery on a human would not be nearly enough; you can't put a human knee back together like it's a jigsaw puzzle and expect recovery, because there are too many parts that simply won't grow back in useful form.

Taken together... well, you're writing it, of course. But if the story stopped here and the question were left open, I wouldn't rule out a near-full recovery.