Realism meets imagination: Super Soldiers

[Caiaphas]

Specifically, one type of super soldier in particular. I call him an Agent. Rather boring, yes, but it's a name.

Anyhoo, list of modifications:
1. Critical bone structures (skull, spine, and ribcage especially) have had their growth stimulated (thicker bones, in other words) and genetic modifications allow for a sort of metallic lattice to be built inside the bone as it grows.

cons: The subject is going to need to ingest metals in order for that lattice to be built, even assuming the mods don't go haywire, and the very structural integrity it adds is going to make it nigh impossible for a bone to be set without some sort of hydraulic press.

pros: The metal lattice is going to make the subject bulletproof and crushproof.

2. The entire nervous system has been rewired to allow for faster signal transmission (this one especially needs a big dose of reality).

cons: I read somewhere that continual stimulation of the brain with no chance of rest will kill you after a while. Wouldn't this have a similar effect, overstimulating the nervous system?

pros: The subject is going to have faster reflexes, is going to be able to move in response quicker, and could probably just flat-out move faster.

3. The eyes have been modified so that they act more like a cat's eyes--if someone could point out the name of the mechanism or whatnot that causes a cat's eyes to "glow" in the dark, I'd be grateful.

cons: If the iris isn't modded as well, so that it opens and shuts far quicker, then a period of blindness is going to follow a transition from darkness into light, and it's going to be more severe, thanks to more light being reflected into the retina (I could be mistaken. If I am, could someone please correct me?).

pros: Really good night vision. That is all.

4. Muscle structure has been changed so that it can contract faster and not tear itself to pieces in doing so, oh, and get rid of lactic acid faster and burn glucose more efficiently (if anyone who is reading this happens to have knowledge in biology, could you please help with the pseudo-scientific babble backing this up?).

cons: None that I can think of. Can you think of any?

pros: Punch harder, swim faster, run longer, et cetera.

5. More genetic mods, this time allowing for faster healing of any and every wound.

cons: If you can't get a bone in the right place fast enough, say hello to the life of a cripple.

pros: You can recover from a stab or a bullet wound in days rather than weeks.

Feel free to shoot holes in them until they're Swiss cheese. Any added modifications and explanations of why these would be impractical/downright impossible would be welcome.

[Kuroji]

Interesting. Some of these could be done and would be effective, since we're assuming the science exists to make them happen.

1. Critical bone structures (skull, spine, and ribcage especially) have had their growth stimulated (thicker bones, in other words) and genetic modifications allow for a sort of metallic lattice to be built inside the bone as it grows.

Well, aside from making the head and face look a little bulky for lack of a better phrasing, you're going to have a little trouble with that if it interferes in any way with the normal operation of bones and the marrow producing blood as normal. You won't really see a lot of benefit from this in terms of making people bulletproof, other than keeping bullets from breaking the bone -- bullets can still go through ribs and hit a lung, not to mention the gut, and a good shot to the leg is still going to nick the femoral artery and they'll bleed out. I'd recommend something more akin to dermal armor. Perhaps in combination to this, because even if they end up being crush-proof they're going to walk away with ugly bruises.

2. The entire nervous system has been rewired to allow for faster signal transmission (this one especially needs a big dose of reality).

Sure, why not? Move by wire. Instead of rewiring the nervous system, put down some wires so that nerve impulses can switch over to the new system you installed, they can have ridiculously fast reflexes, and they can turn it off when they feel like it and switch back to normal nerve impulses.

3. The eyes have been modified so that they act more like a cat's eyes--if someone could point out the name of the mechanism or whatnot that causes a cat's eyes to "glow" in the dark, I'd be grateful.

They'd end up seeing colors in a completely different way, but you'd have to change the system of rods and cones in the eyes themselves, which is going to be a difficult thing, if theoretically possible. If you've got the technology to do the rest of this, you'd be better off replacing them with artificial eyes that extend into UV and IR ranges and can compensate for the light conditions nearly instantaneously.

4. Muscle structure has been changed so that it can contract faster and not tear itself to pieces in doing so, oh, and get rid of lactic acid faster and burn glucose more efficiently (if anyone who is reading this happens to have knowledge in biology, could you please help with the pseudo-scientific babble backing this up?).

Gene therapy to replace muscle tissue with better muscle tissue. Might take a while, but sounds good to me.

5. More genetic mods, this time allowing for faster healing of any and every wound.

I'm all in favor of that. Of course there are certain biological limits, but if you've got nanites to staunch the flow of blood from a wound until the body can heal it, you're doing pretty damn well.

[Shroom Man 777]

This will hinge on all sorts of medical, biological, scientific advances that's like impossible (well, not really impossible, but damn difficult) to achieve. What kind of medical operation will a shmuck undertake to turn his bones into depleted uranium? How many goddamn neuroscientists and neurosurgeons will it take to replace the person's spinal cord with a 56k modem for superior transmissions and fiber optic doodads?

This is, like, more drastic than any medical procedure ever and will take a period of months or years of intensive cutting up and stitching around and therapizing and rehabilitations to achieve.

Meanwhile, instead of investing binillions of dollars into creating a freak of nature supersoldier that'll take years in the operating table to make, the enemy has instead bought himself like an entire army of professional soldiers with tanks and crap.

And, also, the medical advancement in this future is enough to make injuries like decapitations and spinal injuries treatable. I mean, crap, why bother with turning your supersoldiers' bones into cement or turning them into superfast supersoldiers with enhanced nervous systems when - more realistically - this means that you've got the medical technology to treat all sorts of fractures and injuries and nerve damages?

Screw supersoldiers. The supertech will be more useful in hospitals where Walter Reed can like use genetic mods and artificial musculatures and nervous system rewiring technology to put people's decapitated heads back to their bodies.

[adam_grif]

Yeah. The kind of "RAR! Let's invest billions into one man!" supersoldier stuff is wack. If you have the tech to completely rewire a nervous system, you have the tech to build a nervous system from scratch. You could just build an army of Cyberdine systems T-800's!

If you insist on going the supersoldier route, then just use the gen-eng tech to grow an army of not-superman-but-high-quality soldiers for the same cost.

[Rossum]

Yeah, I'll have to agree that many of these would be difficult, impractical, and potentially more dangerous to the super soldier than putting them through enemy fire. Frankly, surgical operations that replace vital organs and neural tissue would have a high chance of killing or crippling the soldier and otherwise messing them up horribly.


Instead of strengthening their bones (which I think would only serve to make their bones harder to heal and probably mess up their ability to produce white blood cells) just give them power armor... or regular armor. Armor is like having metal bones on the outside of your soft squishy flesh that you can repair or replace just as easily as changing clothes. Then save the medical equipment for the times where they actually broke their normal-strength but protected bones.


Speeding up the nervous system would be a noble act... but I don't know how well you could pull off replacing the whole nervous system. You can only realistically move your arms as fast as you can think and to increase the speed of thought you would need to replace parts of the brain which could result in horrible death and brain damage. If you need super-fast reflexes then just get robots. Some of those automated point-defense guns made to shoot down missiles... refit them to shoot whatever super fast aliens you are fighting and you just saved alot of money and alot of horrible medical problems and expenses for the poor sod getting his spine worked on. Or maybe there are some sort of drugs out there that increase reaction time... shoot them up before sending them into combat if you are expecting super fast aliens.


As for improved eyes and muscles... get some night-vision goggles, robotic smart weapons (maybe a shoulder mounted turret gun with a neural interface or something... it can aim and fire faster than human muscles could move a gun held by human arms), or other pieces of equipment.


For healing... just give your hospitals better equipment and funding and maybe have a really cool first aid kit that can patch up wounds... or a suit that can administer first aid on its wearer and give them pain killers and stimulants to get them through the battle. No form of organic healing is going to be useful in the middle of combat, its mostly a case of preventing them from get a lethal wound, stabilizing them if they are injured, and then healing them up once they are out of the war zone.



Frankly, no matter how much money you sink into one soldier, there is the very real chance that that soldier will die or get too injured to continue fighting at which point you now have a dead super soldier. Better to get a whole bunch of soldiers with decent equipment. Plus, keep in mind that unless your soldier is going to be killing people for their entire lives then you might want them to be able to function in society once the war is over. Ultra reflexes and super cat like hearing may be very vital in a war, but it could really stink if you have to drive to work every day. Plus, all those modifications to bones, muscles, and nervous systems might have an adverse effect on their sex life in some way. Turning a man into a killing machine could go really wrong if that same process makes it difficult to enjoy his freakish existence.


If you need human soldiers, then just have a whole bunch of people, put them in regime that brings them to peak physical performance (maybe some liposuction if they are too fat and some steroids and or hormones to boost muscle mass... vitamins and nutrients and stuff as well), maybe get some combat drugs that improve their reaction time if need be. Choose the best ones for your Super Soldier Program and the rest go into your Great Soldier Program. Give them some good weapons, armor, and maybe neural interfaces with their equipment and thats about the best you can expect from human soldiers.


If not, then you can always go the remote controlled route:

[Raxmei]

What's the retirement plan? You either have to rip that shit out (good luck removing gene mods) or let civilians run around with restricted and sensitive technology.

Others have already pointed out the ten rupee jezzail problem.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Actually I can see making ultra expensive supersoldiers in small numbers, for commando-type of missions where you drop them somewhere where they can't get reinforcements or heavy weapons and need to rely on themselves.

For the reasons mentioned by previous posters though I think is would be better to go more the Ghost In the Shell route with "full body cyborgs". Forget about trying to get a little better performance out of organics; strip away everything but the bare necessities to keep the brain alive and make the rest robotic. Make the brain-and-support module a plug in unit, so the soldier can have different specialized bodies; an obviously robotic heavy combat body, a human looking infiltration body, and an off duty/civilian version that looks normal and isn't packed with military-only gadgetry and weapons. The latter also solves what to do when they leave the military; they just walk off in a non-militarized body.

[Starglider]

Before inventing specific modifications like this, you should think about the mission(s) the 'super soldier' is going to execute. Exactly what do you need this asset for? Knowing the mission requirements is the only way to estimate the cost/benefit ratio for specific enhancements, although most of these sound extremely expensive for minimal gain (assuming near future technology, not 'this is so cheap every infantryman can have it'). Even in a commando mission, a marginal increase in carrying capacity and injury resistance won't do much for mission success probability, and how many commando missions are so essential that you'd spend billions getting a slightly better soldier?

For the reasons mentioned by previous posters though I think is would be better to go more the Ghost In the Shell route with "full body cyborgs".

As Rossum said, >90% of the time teleoperating an android body (maybe with a neural interface) is a better idea than putting a brain + life support + interface unit in it. Much less mass, cost, shock vulnerability, the body becomes expendable, and the operator can go back to a normal life afterwards.

[Coalition]

Instead of redesigning their blood system, just inject synthetic orgasnisms/items into the blood stream. I.e. an oxygen transporter that is far more efficient than haemoglobin, plus specially designed immune cells to help out with potential diseases resulting from injuries. This allows you to have temporary super soldiers, and as the items decay, they are killed by the body's immune system and filtered out of the solder's bloodstream normally. This lets you have relatively supersoldiers, without worrying too much about letting loose superweapons if they leave. If they get into trouble before their internal bugs are due to decay, you'd put them in solitary for the necessary duration (with daily blood checks to see their status) until they are no longer super soliders, and give them the dishonorable discharge.

One detail I'd like to put in for all the soldiers is doing complete nerve maps of their body. This means that if the soldier loses a limb, you know where all the connections are, so fitting the soldier with a prosthetic (or vat-grown) leg will be a trivial exercise requiring nanotechnology and a few weeks of recuperation, rather than the clumsy prostheses of today and needing months/years to get used to them.

For officers (or other personnel who are dedicated career personnel) you might go with the permanent upgrades, as they have demonstrated decades of service, loyalty, and reliability to the country. Faster reflexes and better spatial awareness would be helpful for fighter pilots, as anexample. The key would be making obvious corrections to the human body, and make the changes inheritable, rather than needing to re-engineer each person over and over (a government would prefer the former, a corporation would prefer the latter).

Here is the Transhumanism thread we hard earlier:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=140435

One idea might be an eventual reengineering of the standard human brain so it works by volume rather than surface area. Combine that with a internal bio-chip, for long-term memories, along with potential downloading of knowledge to train troops decently. The brain chip would run off the person's blood sugar, meaning you don't have to worry about a second power plant (or replacing batteries/recharging via induction).

So if you need to use an assault rifle, the troops either get the data when they train (downloaded to their biochip), or the assault rifle has a low-level transmitter that allows the troops to load the basic data from the rifle itself. Similar technology would allow driving vehicles they have never been in before. You'd have to use two separate operating systems, to reduce the chances of system hacks from compromised hardware.

One way to avoid hacks would be have the data displayed in a text format, and using the person's brain to speed read the data into internal files. The internal OS then goes over the data, linking it together.

The other method would be downloading the necessary data for scientists, engineers, etc. Memorizing knowledge would not be the goal, being able to understand and use it would be important. I.e. If you know that the Reinsurance Treaty between Germany and Russia was signed in 1887, and is set to be renewed every three years, then you'd make a note that 1890 should be paid attention to (and when Germany refused to renew the treaty in 1890, France wrote up a treaty with Russia very quicly, and the German leaders understood exactly why the Reinsurance treaty had been important). Legal teams would have the entire legal system downloaded, and be responsible for checking all of the data, cross-referencing it as needed to make their case.

It'd be similar to the Skillwires in Shadowrun, where you remove one datachip, and plug in another for fresh skills. Or when runners hit the place, and you download 'Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan/Ong Bak hand to hand' to all your employees.

With the biochips, you'd soon develop a reputation of your personnel able to learn skills quickly from each other, able to pick up one of your weapons, and become an instant veteran with it, and able to use different items after merely reading the manual once. Languages would be learned at obscenely high rates, and complex books would be read once and recalled at any future time (until the user decides to flush the memory for more porn).

[Teleros]

The main issue I see is the cost of all this - if it's going to cost a hell of a lot to do this to just one person then it's likely going to be more cost-effective giving more people less expensive modifications, because (character shields aside) there's only so much one man can do against several.

On the other hand, if your society is advanced enough then this sort of thing may be cheap and easy enough that this isn't a problem. That does though raise the question of why you'd want modified human super-soldiers as opposed to robot super-soldiers. A cultural thing perhaps?

One other thing... some of these are going to make him rather heavier than a normal human being, which will affect how easily he can do things like stay afloat. Just something to bear in mind.

1. Critical bone structures (skull, spine, and ribcage especially) have had their growth stimulated (thicker bones, in other words) and genetic modifications allow for a sort of metallic lattice to be built inside the bone as it grows.

Sensible, and may not even require that much additional weight. Are there any materials that could replace the metal lattice and that a body could conceivably be modified to grow?

2. The entire nervous system has been rewired to allow for faster signal transmission (this one especially needs a big dose of reality).

You'd need to make sure the brain received these upgrades too. I'm not certain what the fastest type of rewiring is, but I doubt you'll do better than fibre optic cables (think significant fractions of c, if you can get them to work...). Regardless of how it ends up working, I suspect the best way of doing this would be gene therapy whilst under close observation in a hospital, because there are a hell of a lot of very important cells to be modified here.

3. The eyes have been modified so that they act more like a cat's eyes--if someone could point out the name of the mechanism or whatnot that causes a cat's eyes to "glow" in the dark, I'd be grateful.

Cats' eyes glow due to a reflective layer, but this isn't necessarily a good thing. If you're going to rewire the nervous system and such I'm sure you can come up with IR- and UV- sensitive cells, and perhaps redesign the existing rods & cones so you can cram a lot more cells onto the surface of the retina (sharper vision too). I'd still hand out night vision goggles though.

4. Muscle structure has been changed so that it can contract faster and not tear itself to pieces in doing so, oh, and get rid of lactic acid faster and burn glucose more efficiently (if anyone who is reading this happens to have knowledge in biology, could you please help with the pseudo-scientific babble backing this up?).

Compared to some of the above changes, this one sounds positively easy . Depending on how much you want to "bulk up" your super-soldiers and how efficient you can make them, you could possibly add in a second set of muscles in key locations, say to perform really rapid contractions instead of your normal muscles. On a related note, don't forget to deal with more precise muscle control. Battlefield medics and snipers will both love you for it.

5. More genetic mods, this time allowing for faster healing of any and every wound.

I'd say what you want is much faster clotting and scar-forming, with the body then able to replace scar tissue over time, as scarring can hurt and be a general nuisance. If you really want to go to town here, give him redundant plumbing and some means of shutting off even major arteries if they've been damaged. The latter will require some seriously powerful muscles though, because blood pressure can be a little high sometimes .

[Starglider]

Instead of redesigning their blood system, just inject synthetic orgasnisms/items into the blood stream. I.e. an oxygen transporter that is far more efficient than haemoglobin

I'm not sure that this will give much practical advantage. Sprint distance is still going to be limited by lactic acid buildup. Better oxygen transport is really only needed if you upgrade the muscles.

plus specially designed immune cells to help out with potential diseases resulting from injuries.

Ditto. Is this a serious problem with modern antibiotics? It certainly won't help in a firefight.

Faster reflexes and better spatial awareness would be helpful for fighter pilots, as anexample.

'Spatial awareness' isn't something you can tweak with a simple upgrade. By far the most useful things for fighter pilots would be (a) check valves in the blood vessels to help with g tolerance (more oxygen storage in the blood would actually help here too) and (b) neural interfaces to absorb some of the data flood subconsciously, rather than having to read displays.

One idea might be an eventual reengineering of the standard human brain so it works by volume rather than surface area.

This is an extremely difficult project that will probably produce something quite inhuman. If you have the technology to do this, you almost certainly have the technology to produce uploads (brainscan-derived AIs) which will be vastly superior for most applications. Of course this is technological singularity territory so detailed predictions are basically worthless.

So if you need to use an assault rifle, the troops either get the data when they train (downloaded to their biochip), or the assault rifle has a low-level transmitter that allows the troops to load the basic data from the rifle itself.

Dropping skills directly into a human mind is an even harder project than brain structure re-engineering. The level of cognitive engineering required to do it is way beyond what you need for uploads and seed AI. Not only will society be radically transformed by then, sending squishy humans into any sort of conflict will be a quaint anachronism. You remind me of a Victorian futurist speculating how the 20th century will be dominated by armored airships and land battleships.

Memorizing knowledge would not be the goal, being able to understand and use it would be important.

Yes, that's the ridiculously hard part. Implantable computers that tap optic, auditory and motor nerves for I/O is merely difficult. We could plausibly have that tech perfected before human level AIs, general assembler nanorobotics etc etc. Having a complete understanding of how the brain encodes skills and knowledge, and the ability to alter/extend neuron webs (the pattern of which is unique to every individual) to implement new skills, that's orders of magnitude more difficult.

[Starglider]

Are there any materials that could replace the metal lattice and that a body could conceivably be modified to grow?

Yes, carbon nanotubes (for tensile strength, diamond or graphite structures for compressive strength). Stronger than titanium and could conceivably be produced in place by engineered bacteria, rather than needing emplacement of external material by microbots or very extensive surgery.

You'd need to make sure the brain received these upgrades too.

Not necessarily, some reflexes occur purely in the CNS, and decreasing the transmission delay is still useful. However the recipient will basically have to re-learn all physical skills, from walking up. Their muscle memory will be completely out of sync with how their body responds. It will take months, maybe years, and it will be a pain in the ass.

I'm not certain what the fastest type of rewiring is, but I doubt you'll do better than fibre optic cables

Speed isn't an issue, all the viable options are ridiculously faster than nerves. Plastic fibre optics are probably the best idea, copper wires are vulnerable to EM interference (i.e. get hit by that microwave crowd dispersal weapon = die horribly) and glass fibre is too brittle (poor shock resistance).

Cats' eyes glow due to a reflective layer, but this isn't necessarily a good thing.

Yes, the reflective layer only exists because the cones have sucky absorbancy to start with, using decent photoreceptors is a better idea. I wouldn't bother with genetically engineered eyes at all to be honest, just stick a tap into the optic nerves and wire up whatever helmet-mounted sensors you want.

such I'm sure you can come up with IR- and UV- sensitive cells

Only near IR. Thermal IR won't work because the body is too warm. The cyborg option gives you that and also data fusion from millimetre radar, lidar, starlight scope, external sensors, and removes the need for separate displays for tactical data. Oh and you get free flash protection.

On a related note, don't forget to deal with more precise muscle control. Battlefield medics and snipers will both love you for it.

Harder than it sounds. This is a fundamental problem with the way that the motor control areas of the brain work, basically because neurons are noisy and unreliable timers. That said if you're replacing the peripheral nervous system, you remove some noise, can put in filters for some CNS noise, and maybe have adjustable sensitivity, which should help.

I'd say what you want is much faster clotting and scar-forming

Biological clotting mechanisms are a compromise between clotting speed and the likelihood of forming unwanted clots. Tamper with that and your soldiers will probably all die of heart attacks and strokes at 50. An artificial solution could probably do better, but as you say the best answer is just to add isolation valves to all the major blood vessels.

The latter will require some seriously powerful muscles though, because blood pressure can be a little high sometimes .

Properly designed valves do not fight the fluid pressure directly.

[Lord of the Abyss]

For the reasons mentioned by previous posters though I think is would be better to go more the Ghost In the Shell route with "full body cyborgs".

As Rossum said, >90% of the time teleoperating an android body (maybe with a neural interface) is a better idea than putting a brain + life support + interface unit in it. Much less mass, cost, shock vulnerability, the body becomes expendable, and the operator can go back to a normal life afterwards.

But there's still that 10% of the time. There's always going to be places with poor or no reception, where the enemy can jam you, or where running around with a running transmitter will just get a missile on your head. If you are trying to rescue some hostages, for example, you don't really want to be sending out transmissions that say "military drone right here!"

[Starglider]

But there's still that 10% of the time.

If you've whittled the utility of an extremely expensive and invasive program down to 10% of an already highly specialised set of missions, it probably isn't worth it.

If you are trying to rescue some hostages, for example, you don't really want to be sending out transmissions that say "military drone right here!"

Why not, the loss of one drone isn't a big problem. That's assuming this is a hare-brained Iranian embassy style 'rescue hostages in enemy territory' scheme. The vast majority of hostage situations occur in areas where the state attempting the rescue has overwhelming force and control of the EM environment.

[Teleros]

Not necessarily, some reflexes occur purely in the CNS, and decreasing the transmission delay is still useful. However the recipient will basically have to re-learn all physical skills, from walking up. Their muscle memory will be completely out of sync with how their body responds. It will take months, maybe years, and it will be a pain in the ass.

True, but the fact that some reflexes and useful actions require the brain means you'll probably want to replace the wiring there. May not be cost-effective or feasible of course.

Yes, the reflective layer only exists because the cones have sucky absorbancy to start with, using decent photoreceptors is a better idea. I wouldn't bother with genetically engineered eyes at all to be honest, just stick a tap into the optic nerves and wire up whatever helmet-mounted sensors you want.

I believe they're working on something like that for blind people already.

such I'm sure you can come up with IR- and UV- sensitive cells

Only near IR. Thermal IR won't work because the body is too warm. The cyborg option gives you that and also data fusion from millimetre radar, lidar, starlight scope, external sensors, and removes the need for separate displays for tactical data. Oh and you get free flash protection.

Hmm. I wonder how easy it'd be to shield IR-sensitive eyes from the body's heat though... Granted machines make it a hell of a lot easier, but it may come in handy for "super-agents" rather than super-soldiers. A niche thing for people who are meant to look like normal people but aren't, as opposed to most armed forces' "function over form" philosophy.
Course I've now got this image of lead-lined eyeballs, but anyway .

Biological clotting mechanisms are a compromise between clotting speed and the likelihood of forming unwanted clots. Tamper with that and your soldiers will probably all die of heart attacks and strokes at 50.

Well, either the super-soldiers are disposable at 50+, or you don't mind paying a little extra to keep them alive & healthy after their service time ends, or your tech base is so good that such problems are trivial to deal .

Properly designed valves do not fight the fluid pressure directly.

Now why the hell didn't I think of this .

specially designed immune cells to help out with potential diseases resulting from injuries

I had the great / mad / hilarious idea of immune cells with some sort of focusing lens and a lot of light-generating structures inside them. God knows how much you'd need to eat to keep the things charged up, but I doubt there are many bacteria that can survive a microlaser to the face .


The thing this topic reminds me of is just how much of a jury-rigger evolution is. Start making a wishlist for a real intelligent designer to use for humans and... boy...

[Shroom Man 777]

The most realistic, or at least believable, supersoldier with gnarly genetically engineered craps if you ask me would have relatively minor - but nonetheless crucial and important - enhancements. For faster reflexes, you don't NEED to rewire the entire nervous system. What you need is an enhanced or artificial adrenalin gland that can produce epinephrine and other stimulants - like amphetamines - in the body for prolonged periods of time, so the human can maintain his flight-or-fight condition without burning out too fast. This would be supplemented by, I dunno, an enhanced metabolic process. Now how that works, I'm not exactly sure, but for one perhaps he could be engineered to have more readily usable stores of sugar and stuff? Somehow he'd be able to optimize the nutrition he's taking in, and use more of it for actual energy while pooping out less of it. A genetically optimized stomach? And maybe a musculature system based on Lance Armstrong?

Anyway, with the aforementioned artificial adrenalin gland that can secrete crystal meth in controlled doses, this already makes the supersoldier almost superhuman. A normal junkie on certain kinds of drugs like PCP can be practically superhuman in terms of abilities! Of course, they tend to burn out once the high is gone, which is why I mentioned some kind of metabolic whatevers. Maybe the supersoldiers can bring super-MREs and other superfood to make their super-metabolisms work better.

As for the musculature, we can use Lance Armstrong's freak body as a basis for the peakhuman abilities we'd want. And, uh, we can also engineer more fast-twitch muscles or something? We won't be doing things like putting hydraulics or artificial muscles or adamantium bones, but what we want is to optimize the body systems and push it to the best levels naturally seen in people and stuff.

Superior reflexes, quicker thinking, better muscles, again this means that your supersoldier will need higher nutritional intake. Perhaps the soldiers can be engineered to be able to turn on their super abilities and turn them off when not needed, to conserve body energy?

Also, for a slightly enhanced healing factor we can engineer them to produce more clotting factors - or have a gland that stores clotting factors, and releases it when the soldier is injured? Something like that.

Anyway, this is all still ridiculous bullshit - but instead of slapping on bullshit artificial muscles or bullshit adamantium bones, I think it's better to just optimize the already present features of the human body and make them better. Why bother with putting fiber optics in your goddamn spinal cord to enhance reflex, when the body can already enhance its reflexes with adrenalin/epinephrine? Etc.

Also, hrm. Maybe some genetic engineering might be called for to optimize the cardiovascular system, to fix it and adapt it for the increased cardiac workloads and stuff...

But all this technology, if it's in this ridiculous supersoldier program, this already means that medical technology is like totally super-advanced and "woah supersoldiers" is really going to be "meh" because in this future medical technology is going to be "HOLY SHIT SUPER MEDICINES!" and nobody's gonna care about the supersoldiers anymore.

I am a nuers!

[Feil]

Magic, religion/culture, and/or spaceflight might give you justification for super-soldiers. Magic, because that gives you a reason to upgrade a single, already-amazing person to do better at their already-amazing-ness. (Jedi with rocket boots and internal gyroscopic stabilizers! Weeee!) Religion, because it gives you a good reason to not just make robots that do the same job better for less. (The T-800 option isn't going to fly twenty years after the Human Resistance overcomes Skynet and restores humanity to its rightful place of being the only ones allowed to brutally oppress humans.) Space flight, because if you can only afford to put a thousand soldiers on the hostile surface of Bobblefish IV to wage war against the brutal Bobblefishian empire, spending all that money on those guys in stead of "an entire army of professional soldiers with tanks and crap" might be worth-while.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think I like Shroomy's idea best. It sounds the least invasive/complicated insofar as far out technobabble solutions go. I especially like the idea of giving the soldier the ability to "turn it on or off" - I bet one could design it so that it is accessible only in certain cases (fight or flight responses, for example.) because even aside from conservation issues its probably not something you want going on all the time. (you'd probably want to even then try to limit under WHAT situations it could be used, eg concsciously triggered in a high tension combat situation.)

My concerns would be twofold however: 1.) wouldn't all these "enhanced" capabilities put a physical strain on the human body (short term or long term) if not actual damage? and how would that be handled? And 2.) Cooling. I'm willing to bet the enhanced performance also means the body is generating alot more heat, which is going to be problematic (you'd have to improve the human cooling system too, or probably rehydrate your soldiers alot more frequently.) That may in fact be a limiting factor on how long/often you can do this, and another reason for having the ability to turn it on and off.

I'm also betting that in most cases you probably aren't going to be fitting "normal" people for this sort of procedure, but you'd be growing your own troops pretty much custom-tailored to this sort of thing (Star Wars-style clone slave armies, basically.)

Someone also mentioned engineering night vision or such into the human eye of your super-troop, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea either.

The "quasi cybernetic" ideas sound cool, but I'd think that a.) you'd be better off sticking them in robots or b.) if you can miniaturize to that degree and run it off the human body, you could probably work at least some of it into some sort of equipment that is either implanted or can be worn pretty easily, or just incorporate it into some sort of powered body armor.

[Shroom Man 777]

I think I like Shroomy's idea best. It sounds the least invasive/complicated insofar as far out technobabble solutions go. I especially like the idea of giving the soldier the ability to "turn it on or off" - I bet one could design it so that it is accessible only in certain cases (fight or flight responses, for example.) because even aside from conservation issues its probably not something you want going on all the time. (you'd probably want to even then try to limit under WHAT situations it could be used, eg concsciously triggered in a high tension combat situation.)

Of course you'd want to be able to turn it off. The operators would be able to have control over their super-adrenalin glands, and they must be trained - the emphasis being on training, discipline, not relying on silly superskeletons or fiber optic nerves - to use it properly and not abuse it and become a bunch of steroidified junkies.

Think of it as bullet time, Max Payne style! SLOOOW MOOOTIONNNN!!!

Hell, in real life, air force pilots do use amphetamines to help them in long missions.

My concerns would be twofold however: 1.) wouldn't all these "enhanced" capabilities put a physical strain on the human body (short term or long term) if not actual damage? and how would that be handled?

Special operators aren't going to live long anyway, or they're most likely to get themselves killed sooner or later. Maybe eventually, sooner or later, the strain will break them down, but it won't matter because these people have expiry dates? By the time one Super Shroom Soldier crashes and burns from strain, a newer better Super Shroom Soldier with newer organ designs would be out on the market?

It's not like Olympic-level athletes or prize fighters can keep on performing at their level for more than a few years at most, before they become footnotes in the records and are replaced by younger, nubile, supple, stronger, lean, muscular young people. Lots of professional athletes end up getting their bodies fucked up later on in their careers. This would be no exception.

But if we want superior performance, this would be an inevitable tradeoff. High-performance, short-lifespan. Unhealthy side-effects. Walter Reed's going to have their hands full...

Anyway, these enhanced capabilities would put strain and this is why the soldiers MUST be disciplined to turn on their enhanced capabilities only when it's needed. To minimize breaking down. I'd imagine that after missions, or something, these soldiers would also have conditioning and therapy and would have specialized diets and lifestyle regimens to maximize their body lifespans and performance whatevers.

(Understandably the body can't stay on an adrenalin rush for too long. If it does, it DIES.)

Yes, it is a hassle. But if we want to make supersoldiers beyond the human norms, these guys WILL amount to a bunch of experimental biomedical test subjects who'll be monitored and who'll get special treatment anyway! Bolting on adamantium skeletons or fiber-optic spinal cords would make this special treatment even WORSE!

Also, this is why I suggested taking some cues off the brilliant physiques of Lance Armstrong, and possibly optimizing other parts of the body like the cardiovascular system with the hearts, better lungs or something, and stuff (which I don't know). But it shouldn't be as drastic as titanium ceramic bones or crazy ass fiber optic nerves.

And 2.) Cooling. I'm willing to bet the enhanced performance also means the body is generating alot more heat, which is going to be problematic (you'd have to improve the human cooling system too, or probably rehydrate your soldiers alot more frequently.) That may in fact be a limiting factor on how long/often you can do this, and another reason for having the ability to turn it on and off.

Exactly.

Also, aside from hyper-adrenalin systems, maybe somehow - someway - we can also engineer them to also be capable of activating a more "reptilian" slow metabolism? I don't know how this works, but for example if they're operating in a desert or in some long patrol that does NOT require super-strength or super-reflexes but requires endurance, then they may be able to slow their metabolisms down like reptiles? Reptiles can go for extended periods of time with minimal nutrition, due to their exothermic metabolisms.

Again, I have no idea how this works. Perhaps we can have DIFFERENT sets of supersoldiers? If we're turning our human soldiers into modified superbeings, maybe these modifications can also be specialized ones? Super Shroom Soldier Set A would have the hyper-adrenalin glands and would be specialized for high-intensity short-duration combats with superstrength and super reflexes. Super Shroom Soldier B would have modified metabolisms that are more reptilian, and can stay in a desert for months and can go for days/weeks/months without eating or with minimal nutrition?

Super Shroom Soldier Set A would be ideal for counter-terrorism ops, for storming close quarters, where speed and strength and reflexes and shit will make them superior to any baseline foe.

Super Shroom Soldier Set B would be better for military reconnaissance, in say infiltrating enemy territory for extended periods of time and NOT fighting the enemy but staying HIDDEN and gathering information while crawling in jungles/deserts/tundras/oceans/volcanos/etc.

I mean, military weapons ARE specialized and optimized to specific roles because it turns out a "one size fits all jack of all trades" really is the best of none, and often ends up becoming an overexpensive piece of shit that can't do a specific task as good as the more specialized equipment. If we are weaponizing human beings to this extent, then it'd stand to reason that they'd turn out this way too.

I'm also betting that in most cases you probably aren't going to be fitting "normal" people for this sort of procedure, but you'd be growing your own troops pretty much custom-tailored to this sort of thing (Star Wars-style clone slave armies, basically.)

Yeah, installing weirdo physical features into people would be easier if you were custom growing these people from test tubes - it'd be more controlled, clinical, scientific, methodical, and convenient and stuff.

But if we're getting already living adult people and modificating them, in some freakishly grotesque, long and painful and drawn-out series of surgeries and therapies? Forget about it! Recruitment rates for the US Navy SHROOMS and the Mushroom Marine Force Recon would drop to an all time low.


This is why nurses like me must head our future super soldier programs!

But, seriously, it's going to be the medical scientist people who'll be doing these craps. If it's got anything to do with the body at all, then yeah. If it was just robots, then it'd be ENGINEERING MAJORS! But it's not! It deals with the human body! So you've got to put up with biology-majors, medicine-majors, and, god forbid, NURSING-MAJORS!

our future bioengineered killing machines will be designed by these humble shroomy hands!

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well, aside from making the head and face look a little bulky for lack of a better phrasing, you're going to have a little trouble with that if it interferes in any way with the normal operation of bones and the marrow producing blood as normal. You won't really see a lot of benefit from this in terms of making people bulletproof, other than keeping bullets from breaking the bone -- bullets can still go through ribs and hit a lung, not to mention the gut, and a good shot to the leg is still going to nick the femoral artery and they'll bleed out. I'd recommend something more akin to dermal armor. Perhaps in combination to this, because even if they end up being crush-proof they're going to walk away with ugly bruises.

Actually you don't seem to understand how much of a benefit this would be, it's not a matter of increasing survivability. One of the most common injuries for soldiers isn't even incurred in combat, it's training injuries like stress fractures in the bones, which are a lot harder to heal than normal broken bones since the fracture is along the bone than through it. If you can remedy this you can extend the amount of physical training you can put the soldiers through and keep them as viable combatants for a lot longer since old age won't have the same effect, unless of course your bone treatment accelerates wear.

[Caiaphas]

I supposed I'd better clear up the intended use of these supersoldiers and give a bit of background.

They're designed to be sabatours, infiltrators, and commandos. They have recieved training in commanding, so that they can lead groups to accomplish objectives. The general method by which they're supposed to operate is like this: infiltrate a partisan base, work your way into a position where you can effect damage, cut the power and other vital utilities when the time is right, and slaughter everyone in the base or call in for reinforcements. They also may be called upon for special missions, like retrieval of a specific item or the assassination of a particular figure.

As for the background: there's two factions duking it out. One is the government and the other is a breakaway group that wants to lessen the authority of the government over individual nations. The breakaway group is organized sort of like the Taliban today, only based in cities all over the world rather than the middle of nowhere, so it's very hard to just send in the troops and kill them. That's why a specific, heavily modified group of supersoldiers is needed, to infiltrate and locate bases. It makes the job a lot easier for the regulars.

Shroom Man, thanks for the adrenaline gland idea. I hadn't thought of that.

[Iosef Cross]

As Rossum said, >90% of the time teleoperating an android body (maybe with a neural interface) is a better idea than putting a brain + life support + interface unit in it. Much less mass, cost, shock vulnerability, the body becomes expendable, and the operator can go back to a normal life afterwards.

Well, if they land on enemy territory like an infiltration unit, they can block the radio signal that controls the body. Taking the brain together with the equipment prevents that kind of problem.

[Iosef Cross]

I supposed I'd better clear up the intended use of these supersoldiers and give a bit of background.

They're designed to be sabatours, infiltrators, and commandos. They have recieved training in commanding, so that they can lead groups to accomplish objectives. The general method by which they're supposed to operate is like this: infiltrate a partisan base, work your way into a position where you can effect damage, cut the power and other vital utilities when the time is right, and slaughter everyone in the base or call in for reinforcements.

Slaughter everyone in the base? You have been seeing too much movies...

If he need to infiltrate, that means that he cannot be greatly different than a normal human. If he is a cyborg, people will notice (if cyborgs are not common), since for example, he will weight several times more than a normie. Unless he is build like a wireframe of 80kg, within a 10kg of meat packaging, like the terminators. That would work if nobody touches it too much (since most of the terminator is empty space between meat and steel).

Disconsidering the cyborg option, I think that Shroom's suggestions are the best. But while I still think that there isn't much to improve in humans in terms of basic metabolism considering that the real difference between an athlete and a normal individual is training.

One is the government and the other is a breakaway group that wants to lessen the authority of the government over individual nations. The breakaway group is organized sort of like the Taliban today, only based in cities all over the world rather than the middle of nowhere, so it's very hard to just send in the troops and kill them. That's why a specific, heavily modified group of supersoldiers is needed, to infiltrate and locate bases.

You mean, like a drug cartel? Also, I think that individual nations have their own governments by definition. Unless you mean a single nation with has to deal with an hostile organization inside their cities, well, that's a job for the police essentially, you need a super policeman, not a super soldier.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. The kind of "RAR! Let's invest billions into one man!" supersoldier stuff is wack. If you have the tech to completely rewire a nervous system, you have the tech to build a nervous system from scratch. You could just build an army of Cyberdine systems T-800's!

If you insist on going the supersoldier route, then just use the gen-eng tech to grow an army of not-superman-but-high-quality soldiers for the same cost.

This. Or at least make the modifications something that grow themselves: you implant a symbiote/vial of nanites/progenoid gland into the host and it does the rest.

Also, some ideas for supersoldier mods: anything that eliminates or reduces the need for sleep would be useful. So would enhanced healing- not so much during combat as to allow full recovery from wounds.

Also, I like Shroom's proposals, which are along the same lines- mild stuff that doesn't require major rebuilds of physiology, that can hopefully be done without massive surgery.

Super Shroom Soldier Set A would be ideal for counter-terrorism ops, for storming close quarters, where speed and strength and reflexes and shit will make them superior to any baseline foe.

So this guy is... Shroombo?

Super Shroom Soldier Set B would be better for military reconnaissance, in say infiltrating enemy territory for extended periods of time and NOT fighting the enemy but staying HIDDEN and gathering information while crawling in jungles/deserts/tundras/oceans/volcanos/etc.

And this is... Solid Shroom Snake?

[Temujin]

I've never understood the concept of wanking out a super soldier. Under certain circumstances a highly modified 'agent' might be appropriate, but the potential benefit should match the cost. For an average soldier that's not going to be the case.

The simpler and cheaper route would be to use nanotechnology to act like a retrovirus and genetically modify the individual from the inside out to make them perform at peak human ca[abilities, or slightly beyond in some cases, rather than try to make their capabilities super human.

Anything more is better served by telepresence or a capably AI most of the time.