Likelihood of a Second Galactic Empire?

[Bellosh101]

In the end though, this dialogue is pointless. We are discussing about whether it was the right thing to do with the benefit of hindsight. Remove that and we have a whole new picture - Palpatine at that time was the highest threat to civilization. Nobody knew the Vong were coming, so their choice to topple the Empire was the morally correct choice.

Even so, we wouldn't be having these sorts of "Empire vs. Vong" debates if the New Republic bothered to at least made some sort of reforms to rectify the flaws of the Old Republic. Even Mon freakin Mothma preached about the corruption of the Old Republic, which Palpatine exploited, while recruiting members for the Rebellion. The Rebellion's leaders knew the OR required major fixing, so the fact that on their watch the NR Senate virtually transformed into the old one (ie. no way to prevent another Palpatine-figure from exploiting corruption) with no apparent reforms is simply inexcusable.

[Dooey Jo]

In the end though, this dialogue is pointless. We are discussing about whether it was the right thing to do with the benefit of hindsight. Remove that and we have a whole new picture - Palpatine at that time was the highest threat to civilization. Nobody knew the Vong were coming, so their choice to topple the Empire was the morally correct choice.

Even if they knew, it would have been the right thing to do. Then, after Palpatine was gone, they would have known that there was a need to keep a large fleet.

[Thanas]

Even so, we wouldn't be having these sorts of "Empire vs. Vong" debates if the New Republic bothered to at least made some sort of reforms to rectify the flaws of the Old Republic. Even Mon freakin Mothma preached about the corruption of the Old Republic, which Palpatine exploited, while recruiting members for the Rebellion. The Rebellion's leaders knew the OR required major fixing, so the fact that on their watch the NR Senate virtually transformed into the old one (ie. no way to prevent another Palpatine-figure from exploiting corruption) with no apparent reforms is simply inexcusable.

They tried their best and failed. It happened to far smarter people and it is no wonder, especially when you have one cutthroat faction and one hippie peacenik faction.

[TC Pilot]

Actually, Leia muses in one of the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy on how the New Republic's government was intentionally designed to be so convoluted, cumbersome, and bogged down by procedure so as to specifically prevent another Palpatine from rising up.

[Bellosh101]

And yet Palpatine rose to power in a Galactic Senate that was excessively convoluted, cumbersome, and bogged down by procedure. So much so in fact that Leia's mom was tricked by the Dark Lord of the Sith into getting a honest leader kicked out of office. The imbeciles who created the New Republic government clearly ignored that one Senate session where a queen who was publicly fustrated with a Senate that was excessively convoluted, cumbersome, and bogged down by procedure, gave Darth Sidious the means to rule the Republic.

[Darth Fanboy]

And yet Palpatine rose to power in a Galactic Senate that was excessively convoluted, cumbersome, and bogged down by procedure. So much so in fact that Leia's mom was tricked by the Dark Lord of the Sith into getting a honest leader kicked out of office. The imbeciles who created the New Republic government clearly ignored that one Senate session where a queen who was publicly fustrated with a Senate that was excessively convoluted, cumbersome, and bogged down by procedure, gave Darth Sidious the means to rule the Republic.

Nobody knew Amidala was Leia's mom, few people if any knew Palpatine was actually a Sith Lord. The "imbeciles" you refer to were either children or not even born yet around the time of the Battle of Naboo and it is very well possible that many of the circumstances became obscured during Palpatine's ascension. You cannot ascrible the same level of thirdy party omniscient hindsight to those who formed the New Republic.

[Bellosh101]

The "imbeciles" you refer to were either children or not even born yet around the time of the Battle of Naboo and it is very well possible that many of the circumstances became obscured during Palpatine's ascension.

Bullshit. 19 year-old Mon Mothma became a Senator in 29 BBY; a mere three years after Palpatine was elected Supreme Chancellor. She would have been around to watch Amidala give Valorum the boot live on Galactic "C-SPAN". Not only that, but the TCW series depicts Amidala and Mothma as political allies (along with Bail Organa) working to bring a peaceful end to the Clone Wars. Finally, the X-Wing Strategy Guide has a part where Mothma herself says she identified Palpatine as a monster not long after he became Chancellor (while testifying to the woefully corrupt nature of the Old Republic in the PT era). Mothma between 19 BBY and whenever the New Republic Senate was installed had every ability to put two-and-two together and realize that Palpatine became Emperor because he exploited the excessively convoluted, cumbersome, and procedure-bogged nature of the Senate. Ergo, she had the capacity to warn the imbeciles who reintroduced the Senate in all its broken glory to not repeat the same mistakes as last time around. The fact that these imbeciles didn't listen makes them well.... imbeciles.

[Darth Fanboy]

Bullshit. 19 year-old Mon Mothma became a Senator in 29 BBY; a mere three years after Palpatine was elected Supreme Chancellor. She would have been around to watch Amidala give Valorum the boot live on Galactic "C-SPAN".

Mon Mothma = Every being responsible for the NR government! Who knew?

Not only that, but the TCW series depicts Amidala and Mothma as political allies (along with Bail Organa) working to bring a peaceful end to the Clone Wars. Finally, the X-Wing Strategy Guide has a part where Mothma herself says she identified Palpatine as a monster not long after he became Chancellor (while testifying to the woefully corrupt nature of the Old Republic in the PT era). Mothma between 19 BBY and whenever the New Republic Senate was installed had every ability to put two-and-two together and realize that Palpatine became Emperor because he exploited the excessively convoluted, cumbersome, and procedure-bogged nature of the Senate. Ergo, she had the capacity to warn the imbeciles who reintroduced the Senate in all its broken glory to not repeat the same mistakes as last time around. The fact that these imbeciles didn't listen makes them well.... imbeciles.

Again, Mon Mothma is not every being responsible for the NR government. Hell she probably even tried to stop the NR from making those same mistakes but not everybody had the same experience she had. Mon Mothma however is a very notable exception and her being part of Prequel events does not mean that somehow everyone in the NR had all of the facts she did or was willing to listen.

In fact, Mon Mothma may have even unintentionally represented the stagnant Old Republic seeing as how she played a role in it. That may not have helped her in trying to advise others in the New Republic.

You say that those supposed imbeciles were ignorant because they didn't listen, but they do not have the hindsight and experience of one of the extremely few who played a close role in Senatorial events during the Prequel era, helped administrate the Rebel Alliance, and then went on to be part of the New Republic Government.

Furthermore, and i'm not sure if you are trying to argue this so if you aren't I apologize in advance, Bail Organa kept the secret that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and unless I am mistaken he never shared that fact with anyone, and the identity of Palpatine as Sidious was kept secret from Mon Mothma and others who opposed Palpatine. She knew he was corrupt but not that he was a Dark Lord who had been secretly in the process of usurping the galaxy for decades.

[Bellosh101]

Mon Mothma however is a very notable exception and her being part of Prequel events does not mean that somehow everyone in the NR had all of the facts she did or was willing to listen.

Those twits may not have been around during the PT, but they sure as hell would have been exposed to Mon Mothma's version of PT-era events (which she explains in the standard speech she makes to resistance cells) when she was in charge of the Rebellion and the New Republic Provisional Council. Furthermore, quite a few NR members (especially those from the Rim) will not have fond generational memories of either the Republic or the Empire. Just because such people could remember the PT-era doesn't mean they wouldn't remember their mothers and fathers ranting about the broken Republic.

In fact, Mon Mothma may have even unintentionally represented the stagnant Old Republic seeing as how she played a role in it. That may not have helped her in trying to advise others in the New Republic.

Or maybe it's this experience which makes her opinion far more valuable than that of the common yokel.

You say that those supposed imbeciles were ignorant because they didn't listen, but they do not have the hindsight and experience of one of the extremely few who played a close role in Senatorial events during the Prequel era, helped administrate the Rebel Alliance, and then went on to be part of the New Republic Government.

Again, you're ignoring the combined effect of Rebellion propaganda (which includes Mothma's version of PT-era events as explained in the X-Wing Strategy Guide) and the recollections of old folk who were around when the Senate was a clusterfuck.

Furthermore, and i'm not sure if you are trying to argue this so if you aren't I apologize in advance, Bail Organa kept the secret that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

Actually, the X-Wing Strategy Guide does infact have Mothma accusing Palpatine of using the Dark Side of the Force in her standard recruitment speeches. Following her speech in the guide is the "A Call To Reason" pamphlet, which further insinuates the Emperor as a user of the Dark Side (but not as a member of the Sith Order mind you). So yes; anyone exposed to Rebellion propaganda would have heard accusations of Palpatine being a Dark Sider user.

[Darth Fanboy]

Those twits may not have been around during the PT, but they sure as hell would have been exposed to Mon Mothma's version of PT-era events (which she explains in the standard speech she makes to resistance cells) when she was in charge of the Rebellion and the New Republic Provisional Council. Furthermore, quite a few NR members (especially those from the Rim) will not have fond generational memories of either the Republic or the Empire. Just because such people could remember the PT-era doesn't mean they wouldn't remember their mothers and fathers ranting about the broken Republic.[/quotes]

Those twits those imbeciles RARRRGGH! What's with all the impotent rage for fictional characters? As a reader you're getting insights that those other senators aren't privy to. There is no reason for some of these NR founders to believe Mon Mothma is 100% benevolent, there is no reason for them to have to want to go along with all of her ideas and plans either.

Or maybe it's this experience which makes her opinion far more valuable than that of the common yokel.

Or maybe it's her extreme love of rare coruscanti cheeses? Look, it MIGHT make her opinion more valuable (to someone such as you and I with the benefit of being omniscient third party readers we know she was doing exactly what she said) but that again does not mean that people, even fellow founders of the New Republic do not have the right to be skeptical. Especially nonhumans with distrust of a core world human who aside from her political differences would not have been given much trouble by the Empire.

Again, you're ignoring the combined effect of Rebellion propaganda (which includes Mothma's version of PT-era events as explained in the X-Wing Strategy Guide) and the recollections of old folk who were around when the Senate was a clusterfuck.

And apparently so are the "imbeciles" and "twits" you are reaging on about. Of course since they were involved with a government that didn't fare so well we must assume they were all morons.

Actually, the X-Wing Strategy Guide does infact have Mothma accusing Palpatine of using the Dark Side of the Force in her standard recruitment speeches. Following her speech in the guide is the "A Call To Reason" pamphlet, which further insinuates the Emperor as a user of the Dark Side (but not as a member of the Sith Order mind you). So yes; anyone exposed to Rebellion propaganda would have heard accusations of Palpatine being a Dark Sider user.

That's about as obscure as Canon gets, does she actually have evidence of this or is she just making accusations? There is no other reference that gives us any real indication that Mon Mothma knew, and this could all be just a bunch of bluster that accidentally happened to be correct.

Now admittedly by the time the events of Dark Empire came about it seemed to become common knowledge that Palps was a Darksider.

[Ghost Rider]

Not going to even tread through another one of these, but for evidence of Palpatine's abilities? Here's the problem, what did Bail ever tell anyone?

Remember by canon, Palpatine never told anyone and in fact the reason they have any knowledge would be from two sources, Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. Bail made the leap of knowing Vader was Anakin Skywalker and that Palpatine to reign in such a being was likely a something of that nature. But then again he was one of the only people who had contact with Obi Wan and Yoda in the final days of the Republic. So he has first hand sources.

Luke? He found from obvious sources and in fact likely told the Alliance high command of said discovery.

Really, from X-Wing guide and the story of the hint book it is likely she presumed said knowledge on both the Jedi(She recommends Farlander to discover a master...a rather difficult feat given there is only one Jedi Master left, and a scant few Jedi Knights...even counting the EU's prevalence of them coming out of the woodwork) and Palpatine's Force powers. She does not know of the connection between Maul, Dooku, or Anakin to Palpatine and they would be the only decent reason to make such a leap.