Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

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Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Einzige »

... beginning with Horus Rising, and I must say that the Warmaster is not at all the monster that he seems to have been made out to be with everything I've read on the Internet.

Bear in mind that this book is my very first foray into the Warhammer universe, and I enjoy it a good deal. That said, I'm not entirely convinced I understand the rationale behind Horus' fall.

Take, for instance, his dealings with the Interix, and this exchange with the Mournival in relation to diplomacy with them:
"Two weeks without solid agreement," Horus said,"'nor even a mutually acceptable scheme of how to continue. They regard us with a mixture of curiosity and caution, and hold us at arm's length. Any commentary?"
"We've exhausted all possibilities, lord.’ Maloghurst said, 'to the extent that I fear we are wasting our time. They will admit to nothing but a willingness to open and pursue ambassadorial links, with a view to trade and some cultural exchange. They will not be led on the subject of alliance."
"Or compliance." Abaddon remarked quietly.
"An attempt to enforce our will here.’ said Horus, "would only confirm their worst opinions of us. We cannot force them into compliance."
"We can." Abaddon said.
"Then I'm saying we shouldn't." Horus replied.
"Since when have we worried about hurting people's feelings, lord?" Abaddon asked. "Whatever our differences, these are humans. It is their duty and their destiny to join with us and stand with us, for the primary glory of Terra. If they will not..."
He let the words hang. Horus frowned. "Someone else?"
"It seems certain that the interex has no wish to join us in our work." said Raldoron. "They will not commit to a war, nor do they share our goals and ideals. They are content with pursuing their own destiny."
Sanguineus said nothing. He allowed his Chapter Master to weigh in with the opinion of the Blood Angels, but kept his own considerable influence for Horus's ears alone.
"Maybe they fear we will try to conquer them." Loken said.
"Maybe they're right." said Abaddon. "They are deviant in their ways. Too deviant for us to embrace them without forcing change."
"We will not have war here," Horus said. "We cannot afford it. We cannot afford to open up a conflict on this front. Not at this time. Not on the vast scale subduing the interex would demand. If they even need subduing."
"Ezekyle has a valid point.’ said Erebus quietly. The interex, for good reasons, I'm sure, have built a society that is too greatly at variance to the model of human culture that the Emperor has proclaimed. Unless they show a willingness to adapt, they must by necessity be regarded as enemies to our cause."
"Perhaps the Emperor's model is too stringent." the Warmaster said flady.
There was a pause. Several of those present glanced at each other in quiet unease.
The Warmaster, it seems to me, is perfectly correct in his elucidation of the situation: the Interix has no innate conflict with the Imperium or the Emperor, and, it seems to be implied, mostly wants to be left alone. But Imperial protocol would seem to deny them this possibility.

Bear in mind that this is literally the first material relating to this universe that I've ever come across, and I haven't finished it yet. That said, I have to ask: is this mere disagreement, and other disagreements of this nature, between Imperial doctrine and the Warmaster the cause for his eventual turn to Chaos? If so, I have to say that I think his argument is entirely correct, and the Emperor's creed entirely wrong. Being that this is years before the need to stamp out the possibility of corruption, I can hardly see the need to exterminate an entire population of humans merely because they are not culturally pre-conditioned to accept Imperial dogma.

The wise thing to do, it seems to me, would be to issue an apology for intruding upon the megarachnid planet, leave behind a few remembrances and iterators for cultural exchange, and leave their territory and continue the Crusade. But I get the feeling that isn't what happens.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by OmegaChief »

While I'm plenty of others can give a more detailed and even account of Horuses fall in that series, in my opinion it wasn't handled all that well.

Somthing you should also note, is this book serires is written at about 10,000 years prior to the 'current' setting, which is why they tend to take such a negetive veiew when it comes to Horus, as post fall to Chaos he did some pretty terrible things.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Einzige »

OmegaChief wrote:While I'm plenty of others can give a more detailed and even account of Horuses fall in that series, in my opinion it wasn't handled all that well.
I don't see why, though. Of course, I can only base my judgment off one portion of this one book, but it seems like the Horus character is made to actually be sympathetic, at least in Horus Rising, which I imagine would make his fall from grace that much more riveting. And this book, at least, is quite well-written for expanded universe material.
Somthing you should also note, is this book serires is written at about 10,000 years prior to the 'current' setting, which is why they tend to take such a negetive veiew when it comes to Horus, as post fall to Chaos he did some pretty terrible things.
That's what I'm aware of. But, if differences with doctrine such as the one I mentioned above influenced his fall, then it seems to me as if he had noble reasons for rejecting the Emperor.
When the histories are written, I'll bet that the Old Right and the New Left are put down as having a lot in common and that the people in the middle will be the enemy.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Bakustra »

Heh heh heha ha ha ha!

You really need to read further, but suffice it to say that Horus' fall is far more grandiose in its roots than an argument over a single alien species.

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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by OmegaChief »

I can't really say more about his fall without spoiling the later books, but I agree Horus Rising is one of the best books of that series, I'm a little divided on if Thousand Sons is better then it though.

Though to say what I can, some disagreements do have some influence on the beginning of driving a wedge between Horus and the Emperor, the big event in about two-three books time just doesn't feel well done or a culmination of character development to that point.
This odyssey, this, exodus. Do we journey toward the promised land, or into the valley of the kings? Three decades ago I envisioned a new future for our species, and now that we are on the brink of realizing my dream, I feel only solitude, and regret. Has my entire life's work been a fool's crusade? Have I led my people into this desert, only to die?
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

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It's got more to do with the fact that the conquered planets the Crusade wins are being handed over to civilian administrators from Terra, and Horus's warriors are basically being pushed aside.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Night_stalker »

The series is designed to show how the fall from grace can start out easy, but can quickly enter freefall. You are supposed to like Horus in the series at first. He hasn't done anything too violent. Yet. :angelic:
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius »

As you yourself have pointed out, you've only read part of the first book in a how-many-are-there-now series. It's like asking why Anakin Skywalker isn't a ruthless tyrant in Phantom Menace.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

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Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:As you yourself have pointed out, you've only read part of the first book in a how-many-are-there-now series. It's like asking why Anakin Skywalker isn't a ruthless tyrant in Phantom Menace.
I get the impression that the questions he is asking are more along the lines of "why should we like and have sympathy for the Old Republic" when even the Jedi see no reason to stop the blatant slavery that goes on in the galaxy.

The problem I see is how are you supposed to be sympathetic to the Imperium whose officers feel that genocide or brutal conquest and supression are the proper course of action for anyone that doesnt join their "we love the idiot God Emperor of Man" club.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

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Bilbo wrote:The problem I see is how are you supposed to be sympathetic to the Imperium whose officers feel that genocide or brutal conquest and supression are the proper course of action for anyone that doesnt join their "we love the idiot God Emperor of Man" club.
Because like it or not, the Imperium is the last, best hope for survival.

Also, this is 40K we're talking about. "In the grim darkness of the future" and all that.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Bilbo »

Teleros wrote:
Bilbo wrote:The problem I see is how are you supposed to be sympathetic to the Imperium whose officers feel that genocide or brutal conquest and supression are the proper course of action for anyone that doesnt join their "we love the idiot God Emperor of Man" club.
Because like it or not, the Imperium is the last, best hope for survival.

Also, this is 40K we're talking about. "In the grim darkness of the future" and all that.
That is what I figured. We are grimdark so we dont give a shit if there is no one here you like.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Connor MacLeod »

It's 40K, so there's going to be a healthy does of grimdark, and there's nothing more grimdark (Yet) than the Heresy. If things seem all glowy and light, its just to set things up for the grimdark to come.

I've come to think there are two major themes i the Heresy novels (aside from the general grimdarkitude and seeing how individual figures in it fucked up.). The first is that in 40K, religion is inescapable. the whole "Imperial truth" thing and the Lectito Divinatus stuff, and the whole Word Bearers angle, play up the fact that Religion and Faith, and the Emperor's blanket dismissal (evne denial) of it, played a role in the events to come. If nothing else, it soured the Word Bearers and gave Chaos the avenues with which they could begin exploiting things.

The second major point extends from the first. THere are no "real" bad guys. You get something of a role reverseal with some of the Primarchs and characters- horus is very likable in Horus Rising, as is Magnus in Thousand Sons. Leman Russ, however, has thus far been shown to be a dick. Mind you, some of the Chaos-bound Primarchs are still dicks (Night Haunter, Perturabo, and Angron in particular) and the Word Bearers as a whole basically come off as the entire cause of the fuckery (And come off as being retards of a magnitude comparable to the Soul Drinkers in their gullibility, and also collossal dicks of the same magnitude when it coms to inflicting widespread devastation because of their retardedness.) But Horus and Magnus definitely come across as tragic figures in the series (as does Sanguinius, who seems even more goody two shoes than Guilliman.) I'd also include the Emperor's Children and Alpha Legion, were their characterizations handled better (Abnett and McNeill, ironically, who were responsible for Horus and Magnus also. go figure.)
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Einzige »

So I just finished Galaxy In Flames, and wow, what a difference. Horus goes from being a fine person in Horus Rising to an almost cartoonishly evil rogue in this latter book -- why, exactly? Because of his Spoiler
vision in False Gods?
If that's it, it's underwhelming, to say the least. The first book offered a chance for legitimate philosophical debate with the Emperor to lead to Horus' downfall, only to make it mean nothing and have Horus "convert" to Chaos for no other reason than petty and unprovable fears regarding the Emperor's aspirations in the second. Talk about a missed opportunity.

Which isn't to say I didn't like False Gods and/or Galaxy In Flames, but the whole scenario could have been handled better. Also,
Spoiler
How stupid does Horus have to be to know that Erebus lied to him about being Sejanus, and still put any stock into anything he says?
When the histories are written, I'll bet that the Old Right and the New Left are put down as having a lot in common and that the people in the middle will be the enemy.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by OmegaChief »

Like I said, not a very well handled fall at all, just a kicker, given some of the better books in the series it could have been awsome.

Stupid wasted potential.
This odyssey, this, exodus. Do we journey toward the promised land, or into the valley of the kings? Three decades ago I envisioned a new future for our species, and now that we are on the brink of realizing my dream, I feel only solitude, and regret. Has my entire life's work been a fool's crusade? Have I led my people into this desert, only to die?
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Morilore »

I was so disgusted with the way that successive authors completely ruined Abnett's superlative characterization of Horus that I just about gave up on the series. It doesn't feel like pride going before the fall, and it doesn't feel like evil powers of darkness corrupting him in his moment of weakness - it feels like two completely different fucking people.

Seriously, read Horus Rising again. See how Abnett lays out very human superhumans in a very believable age of reason and optimism. See how he carefully spreads the seeds of each characters' ruin, in the symbolism of Keeler's turn to religion and the other dude's inability to give up drink. See how the last battle scene with the interex, with Horus groaning under the weight of the galaxy on his shoulder, almost makes you cry. See how that fucking dickshit Erebus makes you want to punch a hole in the wall.

Then read Graham McNeil's "lol i never listen to anybody" Horus and go puke.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by open_sketchbook »

Somebody just needs to clone a few dozen new Dan Abnetts, raise them in a twisted Boys from Brazil manner, and just let them write all Black Library books from then on. Seriously, he's basically the only decent writer of the bunch, excluding Sandy Mitchell of course.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

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Horus' fall which should have been one of the key central points in the entire series was handled so ineptly that it sours the rest to come. If you read the following novels Horus is simply a cartoon villain. "Muhahahha, let's go kill the Emperor. Muhahahaha, who cares if demons are appearing among my ranks and one of my brother Primarchs is possessed let's keep going forward without thinking hmmmm, maybe I'm getting screwed over." He is held up as a strategic and tactical genius yet is as niave as a child when it comes with his dealings with Chaos and his reason for falling comes off as the reaction of a petulant child - in fact I would say most of the primarchs come off as spoiled kids. There is no real gravitas in some of these stories.

One of my favorite of the novels so far, Fulgrim, gave a decent portrayal of a primarch but even then he was such a tool that there was no real drama in his fall. And when his chapter gets all fucked up and commit mass rape and murder you just wonder, it can come to this in a matter of a few short months? And the handling of the way these legions fall to Chaos is so lacking in import and motive that it lacks a lot of impact and loses some credibility. I'm supposed to believe an Astartes legion will go from complete utter professionalism and loyalty to become a debauched tribe of ritualistic scarification and murder gangs who dance around with demons (literally) in the span of a few months? Uhhhh...it works if Chaos puts a spell on you and controls you - as was the impression I gathered in the novel especially in the light of the effect the Laer temple had on many of the Emperor's Children but if that's the case then is it a dramatic and tragic fall or did the Emperor's children fail an invulnerable save? See the difference here?
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I'm willing to give McNeill a pass on False Gods. Horus was supposed to be a bit of a wacko in that one, given the fuckery Erebus is working on him and the burdens he's under, that we should expect to see a rapid and inconsistent changes in his behaivour - he's not yet the bad guy, yet he's not wholly the noble Primarch we saw in the first novel. If the book had any one real flaw it was that it spent too much time on certain details (EG Horus's "choice" and Davin was too drawn out and dull.) Galaxy in Flames.. well.. Ben counter and Space Marines is always a mixed bag.

I found Fulgrim alot harder to get into than I did Horus Rising or Thousand Sons, I dont know why, but Fulgrim just didn't come off as very sympathetic to me (petulant is the word I always think of) and the fact at the end it's all handwaved away as "Daemons did it" kinda ruins everything that came before. I dunno why, but it just doesn't resonate with me. (Same with Legion, and that IS an Abnett novel.)
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Connor MacLeod »

open_sketchbook wrote:Somebody just needs to clone a few dozen new Dan Abnetts, raise them in a twisted Boys from Brazil manner, and just let them write all Black Library books from then on. Seriously, he's basically the only decent writer of the bunch, excluding Sandy Mitchell of course.
Dude, I like Abnett too, but he's not the be-all, end all in 40K. The Ravenor series is decidedly average, as was Legion, and some of the Ghosts novels have lacked alot of the punch they had earlier on. Other authors like Mitchell, King, and some of the new ones (like the guy who wrote Soul Drinker and Cadian Blood) are also quite good writers.
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Re: Having just started reading the Horus Heresy...

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Connor MacLeod wrote: Dude, I like Abnett too, but he's not the be-all, end all in 40K. The Ravenor series is decidedly average, as was Legion, and some of the Ghosts novels have lacked alot of the punch they had earlier on. Other authors like Mitchell, King, and some of the new ones (like the guy who wrote Soul Drinker and Cadian Blood) are also quite good writers.
Just had it poiend out to me soul Drinker should be "Soul hunter". My bad.
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