Can communism/socialism work?

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stormthebeaches
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by stormthebeaches »

Why do you think they kept on losing?
They didn't keep on losing. Even a brief glimpse of all the battles during the war of independence on wiki shows that the patriots gave as good as they got.
Because being unemployed was such an exciting prospect. They still need those jobs. Of course the correct answer is "English acting like dicks and blockading after the tea party" as well as other actions which pissed the merchants off.
The workers weren't exactly economists. It was the business owners and merchants that figured out "loss of contact with Britain = bad for business", not the workers. Most of the merchants and Business owners wanted the war to end quickly so they could keep on trading with England, they knew that they'd find it a lot harder to resume trade if the patriots won the war.
Nationalists versus Japan versus Communists versus warlords versus warlords versus, etc.
I knew that it was Nationalists vs Communists vs invading Japanese. I don't know much about the different factions or the warlords in the area. I only know the bare basics.
I think the success of Poland, the Baltic states and Finland were more impressive.
The blacks success in Ukraine was so impressive because they were taking on both the Reds and the Whites at the same time, with no industrial base, and won. Of course, the blacks victory was short lived as Stalin conquered Ukraine 22 years later, but it was still an impressive victory.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Oi, storm - I think we have no principal disagreements. I've misunderstood your "that doesn't mean it was better" phrase. I'm not a fan of tu quoque defence either; if someone did something that doesn't mean another gets a free pass on violence or such.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Samuel »

They didn't keep on losing. Even a brief glimpse of all the battles during the war of independence on wiki shows that the patriots gave as good as they got.
The British kept pushing the colonial forces back. The took all the principal cities. That doesn't exactly sound like the colonalists were giving as good as they got.
The workers weren't exactly economists. It was the business owners and merchants that figured out "loss of contact with Britain = bad for business", not the workers. Most of the merchants and Business owners wanted the war to end quickly so they could keep on trading with England, they knew that they'd find it a lot harder to resume trade if the patriots won the war.
Are you seriously claiming workers are too stupid to realize that people need to pay for the goods they are producing or else they won't get paid? :wtf:

As for ending the war quickly to resume trade that doesn't exactly work. While the south (which was more loyalist) had an England only good, New England could trade with any of the European powers.
Of course, the blacks victory was short lived as Stalin conquered Ukraine 22 years later, but it was still an impressive victory.
Why do you think they kept on losing?
They didn't keep on losing. Even a brief glimpse of all the battles during the war of independence on wiki shows that the patriots gave as good as they got.
Because being unemployed was such an exciting prospect. They still need those jobs. Of course the correct answer is "English acting like dicks and blockading after the tea party" as well as other actions which pissed the merchants off.
The workers weren't exactly economists. It was the business owners and merchants that figured out "loss of contact with Britain = bad for business", not the workers. Most of the merchants and Business owners wanted the war to end quickly so they could keep on trading with England, they knew that they'd find it a lot harder to resume trade if the patriots won the war.
Nationalists versus Japan versus Communists versus warlords versus warlords versus, etc.
I knew that it was Nationalists vs Communists vs invading Japanese. I don't know much about the different factions or the warlords in the area. I only know the bare basics.
I think the success of Poland, the Baltic states and Finland were more impressive.
The blacks success in Ukraine was so impressive because they were taking on both the Reds and the Whites at the same time, with no industrial base, and won. Of course, the blacks victory was short lived as Stalin conquered Ukraine 22 years later, but it was still an impressive victory.
:? It was conquered in 1921.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by stormthebeaches »

The British kept pushing the colonial forces back. The took all the principal cities. That doesn't exactly sound like the colonalists were giving as good as they got.
I don't know where you got that information from but its not true. Boston remained in patriot hands throughout the war. So did many other coastal cities. A quick glimpse of all the battles fought during the revolutionary war showed that the patriots won about as many battles as they lost.
Are you seriously claiming workers are too stupid to realize that people need to pay for the goods they are producing or else they won't get paid? :wtf:

As for ending the war quickly to resume trade that doesn't exactly work. While the south (which was more loyalist) had an England only good, New England could trade with any of the European powers.
No, I am not saying that workers were that stupid. What I am saying is that the workers won't have a detailed knowledge of the markets for their products and who exactly is buying what they are selling. Sure, they'd know that a lot of their products were going to Europe but its not like they would have seen a graph with percentages of who's buying what. That kind of knowledge would be left to the merchants and business owners.

The fact that the South had an England only good only strengthens my point. The South had more loyalists because their product was more dependent on England. Still, the loyalists even back then would have been from the wealthy merchants and business owners rather than the workers.
It was conquered in 1921.
:oops: I was very tired when I typed that and got my time lines completely mixed up.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by stormthebeaches »

Oi, storm - I think we have no principal disagreements. I've misunderstood your "that doesn't mean it was better" phrase. I'm not a fan of tu quoque defence either; if someone did something that doesn't mean another gets a free pass on violence or such.
I'm glad we've come to an agreement.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Samuel »

stormthebeaches wrote:
Oi, storm - I think we have no principal disagreements. I've misunderstood your "that doesn't mean it was better" phrase. I'm not a fan of tu quoque defence either; if someone did something that doesn't mean another gets a free pass on violence or such.
I'm glad we've come to an agreement.
Well, given he is comparing it to the worst of the western world, it doesn't exactly make the USSR look good- he just shows it isn't exceptionally evil like alot of Americans believe. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't an opponent of the United States- their goals and ours slightly conflicted.
I don't know where you got that information from but its not true. Boston remained in patriot hands throughout the war. So did many other coastal cities. A quick glimpse of all the battles fought during the revolutionary war showed that the patriots won about as many battles as they lost.
I think Boston was the only successful one until Saratoga and than Yorktown. I might have my memory screwed up by the disproportionate emphasis on the New York campaign though.
What I am saying is that the workers won't have a detailed knowledge of the markets for their products and who exactly is buying what they are selling. Sure, they'd know that a lot of their products were going to Europe but its not like they would have seen a graph with percentages of who's buying what. That kind of knowledge would be left to the merchants and business owners.
Well, there is the minor issue of a British Blockade that they had to confront. I'll stop arguing this point because I forgot what I was arguing.
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Iosef Cross
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Iosef Cross »

RowanE wrote:I like some of the ideas of communism/socialism, because it would make the world much fairer, but i can't see any way it could work efficiently. Can a planned economy succeed?
Is there any alternative, in a communist/socialist system, to a planned economy?
What could there be to motivate people to hard work and academic success?
How would luxuries be divided?

Any help?
A socialist economic system is defined as the complete organization of all the means of production by a single organization, a single plan.

This type of organization doesn't work for complex, large societies (i.e. with millions of people). That's because complex societies need decentralized decision making to function, since they are much more complex than anything that a single individual or a committee of individuals can possibly design. That's because the individual mind is limited. The market works by coordinating the knowledge of millions of individual minds. Socialism cannot do that by definition, and it is needed for any complex social order to arise.

Inequality of incomes is not a property of "capitalism" in itself. Nor equality is a defining property of socialism (with some layman call by communism), you can have unequal incomes defined by a central planning board. You can theoretically have equality of incomes in capitalism, just assume that all individuals are equal (with the same creative and intellectual capacities and same means of developing them, the same emotional characteristics and the same preferences) and equal income levels will arise. Obviously that's never going to happen.

The argument that socialism doesn't work because there is full equality of incomes and nobody will have the incentive to work is based on a misunderstanding of the definition of socialism. Obviously, in a society where income has no relation to the amount of work that an individual makes, individuals wouldn't work much, if at all.

Also, the USSR was not a fully socialist economy. The state exercised a greater degree of control than in the US for example, but not great enough to make it a fully socialistic economy. But the problems of approximating the conditions of socialism were present in the USSR: There wasn't much complexity, they kept their economy simple producing great quantities of commodities. There wasn't a great diversity of products and technological development was stagnated. All these problems are caused by the reduction in freedom of individuals to exercise their entrepreneurship talents over the means of production as access to these means was restricted.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Stas Bush wrote:What, with death squads of the Brazilian dictatorship killing striking workers on foreign automobile plants? That sounds like good ole' ruthless capitalism to me - just in it's "early" phase. Known as capital accumulation. I'm not sure you can say that the anti-communist bastions of the Monroe doctrine in South America created and upheld by the USA and it's proxies are "poor representations of capitalism".
Brazil is not a highly "capitalistic" economy. And never was. But had a better system than the USSR, with is not hard. Much of the world did better. Today only Africa and a few set of nations posses worse institutions than the USSR.

Historically, most nations of latin america can be regarded as being more feudal than market oriented. Before WW1 only 15% of the world population lived in capitalistic countries (with were Western Europe and US). Brazil adopted capitalism only around ~1930, just at the time that it started to develop.

Real representations of highly capitalistic economies are Hong Kong, Singapore and the Anglo Saxon countries, specially the US. In the last 200 years the country that followed closer the concept of a pure market economy was the US. The richest country in human history.

Also, your characterization of "death squads of the Brazilian dictatorship" killing workers is invalid. Just because the USSR dictatorship killed millions, doesn't mean that other dictatorships were just as bad. Your dictatorship (1964-1985) was probably more democratic than Russia is today. They executed less the 1 thousand people, mostly commies and other political activists. The minimum for a dictatorship to function.
On the other hand, other places which were neglected, despite being in proximity to the USA and never under Soviet patronage, did much, much worse.
These places weren't examples of capitalism. Even the USSR was more "capitalistic" than many central American nations.
I'd say it's a matter of targeted support by the First World. The disgraced nations of the Third World could've became just as prosperous as South Korea or Japan if the had the same amount of trade and investment from the old nations of the First World. But they didn't, and many of them were sometimes even all too ardently capitalist to placate their masters in the First World government and financial elites.
No they couldn't. South Korea and Japan didn't became developed countries because of Western Aid. Aid is more of a burden than a gift.

Development is the result of the creation of the right domestic institutions. These institutions are protection of property rights, contracts, reasonable taxes, judicial stability, monetary and macroeconomic stability and stability of the political institutions. Give these set of conditions to any country in the world, and in a few decades you will have a prosperous developed country.

Some people believe that developed countries are developed today because they were developed in the past. That is only partially thruth: They were developed in the past for the same reason that they were developed today, the reason is the existence of the institutions enumerated above.

Stas believe that if the glorious USSR couldn't became developed as the capitalistic countries, that means that developed countries today that weren't developed 100 years ago (like Japan, Italy, Spain, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc), became developed because the already developed countries "helped" them. That is a way of rationalizing his idea that somehow the USSR had a good socio economic system, they didn't. The USSR failed to converge to western income levels because their socio economic system was less conductive to development than the economic system of the western countries.
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Iosef Cross
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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About the "great development" of the USSR:

The Google Labs have only life expectancy data for Russia from 1970 forward, however we can see the last 20 years of the Soviet regime on it's largest country:
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explor ... l=en&dl=en
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Iosef Cross wrote:About the "great development" of the USSR:

The Google Labs have only life expectancy data for Russia from 1970 forward, however we can see the last 20 years of the Soviet regime on it's largest country:
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explor ... l=en&dl=en
What exactly is that supposed to prove? That life expectancy remained relatively stable until the break-up of the USSR? That there was no development of the USSR period, because you took the last twenty years of its existence in the area of the USSR that was most built-up before the rise of the USSR and received the most build-up under Lenin and Stalin and ignored everything else? Are you seriously this stupid?

Iosef Cross wrote:No they couldn't. South Korea and Japan didn't became developed countries because of Western Aid. Aid is more of a burden than a gift.

Development is the result of the creation of the right domestic institutions. These institutions are protection of property rights, contracts, reasonable taxes, judicial stability, monetary and macroeconomic stability and stability of the political institutions. Give these set of conditions to any country in the world, and in a few decades you will have a prosperous developed country.

Some people believe that developed countries are developed today because they were developed in the past. That is only partially thruth: They were developed in the past for the same reason that they were developed today, the reason is the existence of the institutions enumerated above.

Stas believe that if the glorious USSR couldn't became developed as the capitalistic countries, that means that developed countries today that weren't developed 100 years ago (like Japan, Italy, Spain, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc), became developed because the already developed countries "helped" them. That is a way of rationalizing his idea that somehow the USSR had a good socio economic system, they didn't. The USSR failed to converge to western income levels because their socio economic system was less conductive to development than the economic system of the western countries.
So how did the East Asian economies rise to prominence, if not through massive US support which was enjoyed by those countries (Taiwan, South Korea, Japan) which became economically developed, as opposed to relatively undeveloped nations like Viet Nam, Indonesia, the Phillippines, or Cambodia, all of which lacked the massive support enjoyed by the so-called "tiger economies" and which are a mix of autocratic and democratic nations, just like the nations the US supported (calling the South Korean government of the 1950s democratic is a marvelous joke for those of us acquainted with a little history of the area, and Taiwan wasn't much better). For that matter, why did Hong Kong become developed, if not through the massive investment by the UK in the area? Why do you think that Spain and Italy were undeveloped nations on par with Korea at the beginning of the twentieth century? For that matter, why do you think that Japan was an undeveloped nation at the beginning of the twentieth century? Are you using some metric other than industrialization for "development" in this case?
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Samuel »

This type of organization doesn't work for complex, large societies (i.e. with millions of people). That's because complex societies need decentralized decision making to function, since they are much more complex than anything that a single individual or a committee of individuals can possibly design. That's because the individual mind is limited. The market works by coordinating the knowledge of millions of individual minds. Socialism cannot do that by definition, and it is needed for any complex social order to arise.
If that was true, oligopolies wouldn't ever form. Yet they do. Heck, the government manages to make the military, police and other services work- the question is how well compared to the alternatives, not if it is possible. The USSR showed you could run the farms top down... but you really shouldn't try to do so because productivity drops and people starve.
Inequality of incomes is not a property of "capitalism" in itself.
You need to concentrate capital to have the system work. Capital procedes to accumulate more income, snowballing and increasing inequality.
Nor equality is a defining property of socialism (with some layman call by communism), you can have unequal incomes defined by a central planning board.
Yes, but so far nations that have embraced command economies also generally have been communist, which does favor equality. You can get unequal distribution in command economies with different ideologies (like the Incans).
You can theoretically have equality of incomes in capitalism, just assume that all individuals are equal (with the same creative and intellectual capacities and same means of developing them, the same emotional characteristics and the same preferences) and equal income levels will arise. Obviously that's never going to happen.
No, even with that perfect setup, information will be imperfect and distribution of workers for the required jobs will vary. Unless education costs and time required is zero, some positions will be saturated, other will have too few and wages will be changed to cover this.

Additionally, that doesn't cover the fact that capitalists will earn more than wage laborers. If everyone owns equal capital, it could work, but than you have worker syndicalism, not capitalism.
Obviously, in a society where income has no relation to the amount of work that an individual makes, individuals wouldn't work much, if at all.
The problem is not just fixed salaries, but guarenteed employment. If you have to worry about being tossed into the street for not working hard enough it inspires you to work harder, especially if there are people in the street who will replace you if your productivity falls enough. Communist states can't do that though- it is an inefficiency and cruelity they are dead set against.
Brazil is not a highly "capitalistic" economy. And never was. But had a better system than the USSR, with is not hard. Much of the world did better. Today only Africa and a few set of nations posses worse institutions than the USSR.
No, it was capitalist. It wasn't free market.
In the last 200 years the country that followed closer the concept of a pure market economy was the US. The richest country in human history.
You mean the nation that gave out free land to railroads, erect import barriers to help local industries, insured a favorable business climate by crushing unions and let some of the most awesome monopolies in human history emerge?
They executed less the 1 thousand people, mostly commies and other political activists. The minimum for a dictatorship to function.
Er, no. You can just dump dissidents in a prison and remove access to the outside world- it isn't necesary to kill people unless you have so many that you run out of prison space (in which case you should probably just build gulags and used increased mortality to thin their numbers).

Course, Brazil was one of the nicer National Security States. Argentina was the most brutal and Peru was "the good guy"- the Maoists killed more than the government there.
Aid is more of a burden than a gift.
Only if incompetant. Free money is always useful.
These institutions are protection of property rights, contracts, reasonable taxes, judicial stability, monetary and macroeconomic stability and stability of the political institutions.
Stable economic climate and political is true. The first means that money has enough certain value to prevent the economy from breaking and reforming as barter (which isn't conductive to large scale planning or growth in general). The second means you don't have to worry about the PLF and POF killing you for your stuff.

The others though... corruption was high in the 19th century US and modern China. I'm not sure how essential each were or if the nations that grew first actually had them.
became developed because the already developed countries "helped" them.
Well, protecting them from outside invasion does count as help. :P But yeah, internal changes were responsible for their success although aid could have been responsible for forming them.
That is a way of rationalizing his idea that somehow the USSR had a good socio economic system, they didn't.
I don't think he believes that, just that it is better than modern Russia. Which is a depressingly low bar it has to vault.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Let's answer this tumor of ignorance:
Bakustra wrote:What exactly is that supposed to prove? That life expectancy remained relatively stable until the break-up of the USSR? That there was no development of the USSR period, because you took the last twenty years of its existence in the area of the USSR that was most built-up before the rise of the USSR and received the most build-up under Lenin and Stalin and ignored everything else? Are you seriously this stupid?
Hey idiot. If a country doesn't increase their life expectancy for 20 years (it actually decreased if you look right...) that is really, really bad. If you don't understand that... :banghead: :banghead: Well, give up discussing anything related to development.

I think that only African countries plagued by AIDS managed to do what the USSR did.
So how did the East Asian economies rise to prominence, if not through massive US support which was enjoyed by those countries (Taiwan, South Korea, Japan) which became economically developed, as opposed to relatively undeveloped nations like Viet Nam, Indonesia, the Phillippines, or Cambodia, all of which lacked the massive support enjoyed by the so-called "tiger economies" and which are a mix of autocratic and democratic nations, just like the nations the US supported (calling the South Korean government of the 1950s democratic is a marvelous joke for those of us acquainted with a little history of the area, and Taiwan wasn't much better). For that matter, why did Hong Kong become developed, if not through the massive investment by the UK in the area? Why do you think that Spain and Italy were undeveloped nations on par with Korea at the beginning of the twentieth century? For that matter, why do you think that Japan was an undeveloped nation at the beginning of the twentieth century? Are you using some metric other than industrialization for "development" in this case?
Japan was not rich, it was barely better than the rest of Asia 100 years ago. They only became a developed country between 1950 and 1975. Spain and Italy were about the same level of Japan 100 years ago, much behind UK, Germany and the US, the leading industrial countries these days.

Hong Kong didn't grow because of British investment, but because of the implementation of British institutions! That's the same reason for the development of Asian economies: The implementation of capitalism.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Iosef Cross wrote:Let's answer this tumor of ignorance:
Bakustra wrote:What exactly is that supposed to prove? That life expectancy remained relatively stable until the break-up of the USSR? That there was no development of the USSR period, because you took the last twenty years of its existence in the area of the USSR that was most built-up before the rise of the USSR and received the most build-up under Lenin and Stalin and ignored everything else? Are you seriously this stupid?
Hey idiot. If a country doesn't increase their life expectancy for 20 years (it actually decreased if you look right...) that is really, really bad. If you don't understand that... :banghead: :banghead: Well, give up discussing anything related to development.

I think that only African countries plagued by AIDS managed to do what the USSR did.
You're cute. You ignore everything to suggest that stagnancy is somehow the absolute worst thing that can happen to life expectancy (I wonder why things can't just increase to infinity) and manage to ignore the absolute numbers or any contributing factors to this stagnancy. Here, I'll give you a hint: how do you increase life expectancy? There are two major ways, one of which is far easier and is where most nations make significant improvements today. I'll give you another hint: it doesn't actually involve old age or gerontological care.
So how did the East Asian economies rise to prominence, if not through massive US support which was enjoyed by those countries (Taiwan, South Korea, Japan) which became economically developed, as opposed to relatively undeveloped nations like Viet Nam, Indonesia, the Phillippines, or Cambodia, all of which lacked the massive support enjoyed by the so-called "tiger economies" and which are a mix of autocratic and democratic nations, just like the nations the US supported (calling the South Korean government of the 1950s democratic is a marvelous joke for those of us acquainted with a little history of the area, and Taiwan wasn't much better). For that matter, why did Hong Kong become developed, if not through the massive investment by the UK in the area? Why do you think that Spain and Italy were undeveloped nations on par with Korea at the beginning of the twentieth century? For that matter, why do you think that Japan was an undeveloped nation at the beginning of the twentieth century? Are you using some metric other than industrialization for "development" in this case?
Japan was not rich, it was barely better than the rest of Asia 100 years ago. They only became a developed country between 1950 and 1975. Spain and Italy were about the same level of Japan 100 years ago, much behind UK, Germany and the US, the leading industrial countries these days.

Hong Kong didn't grow because of British investment, but because of the implementation of British institutions! That's the same reason for the development of Asian economies: The implementation of capitalism.
Buddy, if your idea of developed is "three most powerful nations in 1910", then I think your definition is fairly useless. But apparently, pure wealth (rather than industrialization and improving life expectancies and the HDI) is the leading measure of development in your strange little world.

You also ignore the bulk of my points in favor of Hong Kong. So, prove that it was because of implementing British institutions. I don't see Indonesia becoming an economic powerhouse despite adopting democracy, funnily enough, so you may need fairly strong evidence to convince people. Addressing the bulk of my points would be great, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Iosef Cross »

Samuel wrote:
This type of organization doesn't work for complex, large societies (i.e. with millions of people). That's because complex societies need decentralized decision making to function, since they are much more complex than anything that a single individual or a committee of individuals can possibly design. That's because the individual mind is limited. The market works by coordinating the knowledge of millions of individual minds. Socialism cannot do that by definition, and it is needed for any complex social order to arise.
If that was true, oligopolies wouldn't ever form. Yet they do. Heck, the government manages to make the military, police and other services work- the question is how well compared to the alternatives, not if it is possible. The USSR showed you could run the farms top down... but you really shouldn't try to do so because productivity drops and people starve.
I have explained it in the simplest way and you couldn't get it right. Lenin thought like you in this matter: If US Steel worked, the time for socialism is ripe!

Large companies are the product of individual creativity and note that they specialize in single areas only. Today the tendency is against vertical integration, for the same reasons that socialism doesn't work: there are costs of information for large companies compared to small ones and there are the benefits of reduction of transaction costs in increasing size. The equilibrium size of companies is determined by these two factors. Overall, in a market economy with 100 million people there are between 2-4 million companies.

And, I don't think that a society of millions could be run by a single plan. It is simply idiotic to think that a single authority could know everything that millions of decision makers know and need to know to get by. Even in primitive agricultural economies decentralized decision making is important and socialism would result in a decrease in standards of living (as you correctly note).
Inequality of incomes is not a property of "capitalism" in itself.
You need to concentrate capital to have the system work. Capital procedes to accumulate more income, snowballing and increasing inequality.
Partially right. Capital can be polled using things called "banks" and "stock exchanges". Concentration of ownership of capital in the hands of few individuals is not necessary. Actually, these institutions were formed to break the barrier of scale for small capitalists.

Actually, inequality of incomes in capitalism is the result of the natural inequality of individuals. Especially in the form of "entrepreneurial talent", a type of ability that produces great inequality between ones that have them and the ones that don't. Most of the richest people in the world became rich by smart investments, fruit of their talents in predicting the market.

Most people don't have these talents and envy such people while wishing that the government confiscate their wealth. The defense of wealth distribution is the fruit of simple envy of the rich for many people.
Nor equality is a defining property of socialism (with some layman call by communism), you can have unequal incomes defined by a central planning board.
Yes, but so far nations that have embraced command economies also generally have been communist, which does favor equality. You can get unequal distribution in command economies with different ideologies (like the Incans).
I don't know what's your definition of "communism", but in its traditional Marxist meaning it means the end of socialism of the state and the implantation of an anarchy were people will all be happy and goods will fall from the sky. Most social scientists doesn't even use the word "communism" anymore.
You can theoretically have equality of incomes in capitalism, just assume that all individuals are equal (with the same creative and intellectual capacities and same means of developing them, the same emotional characteristics and the same preferences) and equal income levels will arise. Obviously that's never going to happen.
No, even with that perfect setup, information will be imperfect and distribution of workers for the required jobs will vary. Unless education costs and time required is zero, some positions will be saturated, other will have too few and wages will be changed to cover this.
If you have imperfect information everybody would need to have the same degree of imperfection in their information. If not, them people would not be equal.

Actually, most of inequality comes from the capacity of individuals in learning faster than other the information that is relevant for them (i.e. entrepreneurial talent). While some inequality comes from higher productivity of some individuals in working, and higher time preference (they will save and accumulate more capital than other people with time).
Additionally, that doesn't cover the fact that capitalists will earn more than wage laborers. If everyone owns equal capital, it could work, but than you have worker syndicalism, not capitalism.
Actually, if everyone starts with the same endowments, they will earn the same. And this will not be "syndicalism" with really is capitalism with restricted trading in the means of production (so some people don't accumulate much capital).
Obviously, in a society where income has no relation to the amount of work that an individual makes, individuals wouldn't work much, if at all.
The problem is not just fixed salaries, but guarenteed employment. If you have to worry about being tossed into the street for not working hard enough it inspires you to work harder, especially if there are people in the street who will replace you if your productivity falls enough. Communist states can't do that though- it is an inefficiency and cruelity they are dead set against.
What I said included that.
Brazil is not a highly "capitalistic" economy. And never was. But had a better system than the USSR, with is not hard. Much of the world did better. Today only Africa and a few set of nations posses worse institutions than the USSR.
No, it was capitalist. It wasn't free market.
No, Brazil 100 years ago was not capitalist. It was nearer to feudalism. And Brazil was never a free marked, even today. Second to one of my teachers, with is one of the best economic historians in the country, Brazil adopted capitalism in the 30's.
In the last 200 years the country that followed closer the concept of a pure market economy was the US. The richest country in human history.
You mean the nation that gave out free land to railroads, erect import barriers to help local industries, insured a favorable business climate by crushing unions and let some of the most awesome monopolies in human history emerge?
I mean closer. I didn't mean that it was perfectly identical to a pure free market. Even though it was very close.
They executed less the 1 thousand people, mostly commies and other political activists. The minimum for a dictatorship to function.
Er, no. You can just dump dissidents in a prison and remove access to the outside world- it isn't necesary to kill people unless you have so many that you run out of prison space (in which case you should probably just build gulags and used increased mortality to thin their numbers).
1- They can spread their ideas in prison., 2- To send someone to a gulag was quite like being executed slowly.
Aid is more of a burden than a gift.
Only if incompetant. Free money is always useful.
That depends. To some African countries, foreign aid helps the dictators to continue in power. Of course, it is wrong to say that free money is always bad. But normally, free money comes to the poorest countries, with are the ones with the worst political institutions, and the money simply gets thrown away.
These institutions are protection of property rights, contracts, reasonable taxes, judicial stability, monetary and macroeconomic stability and stability of the political institutions.
Stable economic climate and political is true. The first means that money has enough certain value to prevent the economy from breaking and reforming as barter (which isn't conductive to large scale planning or growth in general). The second means you don't have to worry about the PLF and POF killing you for your stuff.

The others though... corruption was high in the 19th century US and modern China. I'm not sure how essential each were or if the nations that grew first actually had them.
The main reason that Brazil is still a poor country is because of your terrible judiciary, with doesn't protect contracts and property rights well.
became developed because the already developed countries "helped" them.
Well, protecting them from outside invasion does count as help. :P But yeah, internal changes were responsible for their success although aid could have been responsible for forming them.
That is a way of rationalizing his idea that somehow the USSR had a good socio economic system, they didn't.
I don't think he believes that, just that it is better than modern Russia. Which is a depressingly low bar it has to vault.[/quote][/quote]

I don't think that the USSR was better than modern Russia, but modern Russia doesn't have a very good system either. Brazil has a better system than either.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Bakustra, you are not still 18 are you? That's what your profile said. At least that would explain your behavior.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Iosef Cross wrote:Bakustra, you are not still 18 are you? That's what your profile said. At least that would explain your behavior.
Hey, fucker, are you going to answer my points, or snipe irrelevantly?

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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Formless »

Iosef Cross wrote:Bakustra, you are not still 18 are you? That's what your profile said. At least that would explain your behavior.
That makes him 3 whole years younger than you. Gee, you sure are mature for a 21 year old! :roll:
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Iosef Cross wrote:Brazil has a better system than either.
Why Brazil has malnourished people, including children, but Russia/USSR do not have? ;) Answer that, Iosef. I've awaited for you to answer it for a long, long time. You seemed to ignore this.

A nice handy comparison of Brazil and the USSR is given:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 6#p3280766

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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Samuel »

Large companies are the product of individual creativity and note that they specialize in single areas only.
:wtf:
Just no.

As for "single specialty" yeah, coal and iron mining, smelting, railroads steel mills and casting- these are all a "single area".
oday the tendency is against vertical integration, for the same reasons that socialism doesn't work: there are costs of information for large companies compared to small ones and there are the benefits of reduction of transaction costs in increasing size.
I believe it is simpler- if the odds of being the best in a field are randomly distributed, than an outside supplier is more likely to be the best choice. Of course, if mark up prices are high enough (which is the situation for certain oligopolies), than it will be better to vertically integrate.
Overall, in a market economy with 100 million people there are between 2-4 million companies.
Except that they are not evenly distributed.
And, I don't think that a society of millions could be run by a single plan. It is simply idiotic to think that a single authority could know everything that millions of decision makers know and need to know to get by.
It can. You can use the previous years an allocate enough resources to maintain the system. Growth is problematic though because it involves large unknowns. If you have experience with the fields you are growing into, it is feasible, but if you don't it depends on the skill of your managers.
Even in primitive agricultural economies decentralized decision making is important and socialism would result in a decrease in standards of living (as you correctly note).
Actually societies at that level have systems similar to a command economy (in that the workers have no incentive and recieve orders from above)- serfdom and plantations fit pretty well, although their managers have a profit incentive.
Capital can be polled using things called "banks" and "stock exchanges". Concentration of ownership of capital in the hands of few individuals is not necessary. Actually, these institutions were formed to break the barrier of scale for small capitalists.
So the individuals in charge of the banks and stock exchanges would have control over the capital flow for the entire economy. Unless you put it in the hands of the government :P
Actually, inequality of incomes in capitalism is the result of the natural inequality of individuals. Especially in the form of "entrepreneurial talent", a type of ability that produces great inequality between ones that have them and the ones that don't. Most of the richest people in the world became rich by smart investments, fruit of their talents in predicting the market.
This assumes that the market is predictable enough for individuals to take advantage of that... except your argument against communism is that the market isn't predictable enough for it to work. If true, that means the only advantage these people had was luck and starting out with a larger capital stock.
Most people don't have these talents and envy such people while wishing that the government confiscate their wealth. The defense of wealth distribution is the fruit of simple envy of the rich for many people.
Populism. I subscribe to the view that you need to encourage the goose that lays the gold egg... but that it needs to be forced to give up eggs in the first place.
I don't know what's your definition of "communism", but in its traditional Marxist meaning it means the end of socialism of the state and the implantation of an anarchy were people will all be happy and goods will fall from the sky. Most social scientists doesn't even use the word "communism" anymore.
Communism is when everything is owned by the state and the state focuses on equality. I use Marxist communist to refer to the batshit utopian vision expounded by Marx.
If you have imperfect information everybody would need to have the same degree of imperfection in their information. If not, them people would not be equal.
Correct. No one knows what the demand for a new field will be when it starts up. Even the individuals involved don't as they only know how many they need now, not how many when the system is perfected or their competitors do so (or go bankrupt).
Actually, if everyone starts with the same endowments, they will earn the same. And this will not be "syndicalism" with really is capitalism with restricted trading in the means of production (so some people don't accumulate much capital).
Which is indistinguishable from syndicalism :D
No, Brazil 100 years ago was not capitalist. It was nearer to feudalism.
Capitalism requires the ability to own capital. Brazil had that even though it was feudalistic- individuals could own, use, improve, buy and sell land.
1- They can spread their ideas in prison.,
Not in the middle of the Amazon.
2- To send someone to a gulag was quite like being executed slowly.
Yeah, but it looks alot better than shooting or torturing them to death. Plus you can have their families pay for their incarceration.
The main reason that Brazil is still a poor country is because of your terrible judiciary, with doesn't protect contracts and property rights well.
Poor human capital and a hostile climate aren't major factors?
I don't think that the USSR was better than modern Russia, but modern Russia doesn't have a very good system either.
Current LE is 68. During the Soviet Union it reached 70 years.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by K. A. Pital »

Iosef wrote:Today the tendency is against vertical integration, for the same reasons that socialism doesn't work: there are costs of information for large companies compared to small ones and there are the benefits of reduction of transaction costs in increasing size.
Strange. Why was the scale of mergers and acquisitions the largest in many years? Please explain, Iosef.
Iosef wrote:Overall, in a market economy with 100 million people there are between 2-4 million companies.
However, you fail to note that 50-60% of GDP is formed by scant few companies - often less than a few hundred. U.S. companies from the Forbes 500 make up for over 50% of the U.S. GDP last time I counted.
Iosef wrote:Actually, inequality of incomes in capitalism is the result of the natural inequality of individuals. Especially in the form of "entrepreneurial talent", a type of ability that produces great inequality between ones that have them and the ones that don't. Most of the richest people in the world became rich by smart investments, fruit of their talents in predicting the market.
How does this take into account that most of the rich simply inherited the wealth, and the class of the rich has high barriers of entry - the born-into a class of billionaires, for example, constitute a greater percent of the class than those who "made" themselves billionaires, IIRC. Thus it seems evidence is not on your side again.
Iosef wrote:Second to one of my teachers, with is one of the best economic historians in the country, Brazil adopted capitalism in the 30's.
That's about 80 years ago, right? Minor nitpick, Iosef. Samuel's point, as well as my points, stand.
Iosef wrote:If a country doesn't increase their life expectancy for 20 years (it actually decreased if you look right...) that is really, really bad.
Why? The increases in First World life expectancy in the last 20 years have been marginal. Britain, for example, added only 3 years to it's life expectancy in almost 20 years from 1990 to 2008.
Iosef wrote:Brazil is not a highly "capitalistic" economy. And never was. But had a better system than the USSR, with is not hard. Much of the world did better. Today only Africa and a few set of nations posses worse institutions than the USSR.
Strangely enough, the USSR was only inferior in development to First World nations and several Asian economies. *shrugs* I'm not sure I want to live in Iosef-land, where fantasy rules the day.
Iosef wrote:Also, your characterization of "death squads of the Brazilian dictatorship" killing workers is invalid.
Really? You yourself just confirmed it. :lol: What a moron. I didn't specify the number of people killed by said death squads. Although it seems there's still massive murder ongoing in Brazil - thousands of men are killed in real fights between the police and the criminals, in just one town (Sao Paolo), in just one year. That's... impressive.
Iosef wrote:Even the USSR was more "capitalistic" than many central American nations.
Really? How was the USSR more capitalistic, when it lacked private property on capital, whereas private property on capital was present in Latin American nations (as evidenced by foreign plants operating there, as well as domestic capitalists)? Bullshitting again, Iosef?
Iosef wrote:Development is the result of the creation of the right domestic institutions. These institutions are protection of property rights, contracts, reasonable taxes, judicial stability, monetary and macroeconomic stability and stability of the political institutions. Give these set of conditions to any country in the world, and in a few decades you will have a prosperous developed country.
Okay, let's start with South Korea. How was the system of chaebols, an informal oligarchy kept loyal to the government by non-economic methods, and through these methods FORCED to invest into a war-ravaged, uncompetitive economy of post-war South Korea, related to the feely-goody crap you spout above? Do explain. I eagerly await your long-winded response about how "it's not really so, blah blah blah".
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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For those that still think that the Soviet system worked and that their inferior living standards in relation to the capitalistic countries were the result of a lower starting position, what about East and West Germany?

A book about the economic failure of East Germany: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=DMR ... &q&f=false

Note in page 52 that before WW2 East Germany had a higher per capita income and labor productivity than West Germany. After 60 years, the labor productivity decreased to less than 40% of West Germany. And note in page 57 that between 1960 and 1989 that investment in capital stock was always higher in East Germany than in West Germany, and still they were continuously failing behind.

This shows the superiority of the market in increasing total factor productivity, that even with lower proportion of current output invested in increasing future output, output increased faster. That means that in absolute terms the West German economy, with was much more market oriented that East Germany, produced more with less. That's a expected outcome using the theory of dispersed of knowledge in explaining the failure of socialism. The intellectual division of labor that occurs in the market utilizes the existing resources in the most efficient way given the information available to all the individuals that participate in the market. While the restriction of individual decision making that existed in east Germany reduce the utilization of this dispersed knowledge, resulting in an inefficient economy.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

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Stas Bush wrote:
Iosef Cross wrote:Brazil has a better system than either.
Why Brazil has malnourished people, including children, but Russia/USSR do not have? ;) Answer that, Iosef. I've awaited for you to answer it for a long, long time. You seemed to ignore this.

A nice handy comparison of Brazil and the USSR is given:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 6#p3280766

Take it or leave it.
I would have to write dozens of pages to explain to you the problems with your perceptions. Anyway, it is futile to argue with you: you have made your mind about this and will not change, not matter reality. Like those people that don't believe that the holocaust happened.

But I can illustrate your errors with a single graph: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... l=en&dl=en

That I have already posted before.

Also, some of the data that you present in your response (that i didn't read the time you posted it) is incorrect. In 1990 the life expectancy of Brazil and Russia was nearly the same in 1990 (about 2 years higher for Russia), and Brazil's life expectancy was increasing, while Russia's was decreasing.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Iosef Cross wrote:For those that still think that the Soviet system worked and that their inferior living standards in relation to the capitalistic countries were the result of a lower starting position, what about East and West Germany?

A book about the economic failure of East Germany: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=DMR ... &q&f=false

Note in page 52 that before WW2 East Germany had a higher per capita income and labor productivity than West Germany. After 60 years, the labor productivity decreased to less than 40% of West Germany. And note in page 57 that between 1960 and 1989 that investment in capital stock was always higher in East Germany than in West Germany, and still they were continuously failing behind.

This shows the superiority of the market in increasing total factor productivity, that even with lower proportion of current output invested in increasing future output, output increased faster. That means that in absolute terms the West German economy, with was much more market oriented that East Germany, produced more with less. That's a expected outcome using the theory of dispersed of knowledge in explaining the failure of socialism. The intellectual division of labor that occurs in the market utilizes the existing resources in the most efficient way given the information available to all the individuals that participate in the market. While the restriction of individual decision making that existed in east Germany reduce the utilization of this dispersed knowledge, resulting in an inefficient economy.
Except Eastern Germany and Western Germany were not economically identical even prior to the Nazi rise to power, they both suffered highly different exogenous (toward the issue of their fundamental economic systems) political outcomes after the war, and therefore one cannot make a fair comparison between economic systems, with even the most threadbare attempt at controlling for other variables. But of what use is the basics of the scientific method for a propagandist?

What of the fact that the Western republic was host to the patronage of a post-war imperial economic behemoth, with over 50% of global GDP in Jan 1946, while the USSR - already starting from way behind in 1917 - was ravaged by total war and genocidal war aims against Nazi Germany and thereby not only not as able to sponsor the reconstruction of its satellites as the U.S. could with its clients, but also was fairly entitled to great reparations from the war guilty than the U.S., but this resulted in more losses for Eastern Germany vs. the West.
Iosef Cross wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:
Iosef Cross wrote:Brazil has a better system than either.
Why Brazil has malnourished people, including children, but Russia/USSR do not have? ;) Answer that, Iosef. I've awaited for you to answer it for a long, long time. You seemed to ignore this.

A nice handy comparison of Brazil and the USSR is given:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 6#p3280766

Take it or leave it.
I would have to write dozens of pages to explain to you the problems with your perceptions. Anyway, it is futile to argue with you: you have made your mind about this and will not change, not matter reality. Like those people that don't believe that the holocaust happened.

But I can illustrate your errors with a single graph: http://www.google.com/publicdata/explo ... l=en&dl=en

That I have already posted before.

Also, some of the data that you present in your response (that i didn't read the time you posted it) is incorrect. In 1990 the life expectancy of Brazil and Russia was nearly the same in 1990 (about 2 years higher for Russia), and Brazil's life expectancy was increasing, while Russia's was decreasing.
You are a troll and I find it obscene that you have gone on in such a manner as if you can disregard basic standards of debate and decree on fiat as if you are some Pontiff.

Of course you omit the fact that the Russian Federation was suffering enormous political and social dislocations in 1990-1993 beyond the mere issue of inheriting the economic heritage of the USSR. Furthermore, the Russian state under went massive capitalist "reforms" under the tutelage of the finest Western ideologists of development, which thoroughly destroyed social equality and basic economic security for the average Russian. I know Russians who lived through it, and it was terrible; a great cause of Putin's contemporary popularity is the belief, rightly or wrongly, that he was responsible for finally arresting and at least partially reversing the rot of American-advanced capitalist "reform" - actually destruction - of the Russian economy.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Samuel »

For those that still think that the Soviet system worked and that their inferior living standards in relation to the capitalistic countries were the result of a lower starting position, what about East and West Germany?
Stas is arguing that the USSR was able to transform Russia from an agrarian economy to an industrial one. A current industrial economy is a different matter and he agrees it is better for achieving growth if certain conditions are met (ones that weren't present in Russia and are hard to achieve). That and I believe East Germany was set up by the Soviets as a method of revenge on the population of Germany. I could be wrong, but the Stazi give the appearence of Stalin reading 1984 and being insulted at how inefficient it was and that he'd show the pansy "democratic socialists" how real dictators do totalitarianist hell.
Also, some of the data that you present in your response (that i didn't read the time you posted it) is incorrect. In 1990 the life expectancy of Brazil and Russia was nearly the same in 1990 (about 2 years higher for Russia), and Brazil's life expectancy was increasing, while Russia's was decreasing.
The country falling apart had an effect on the health care system and drinking rate? It is worth noting your graph has a previous example of the LE droping a bit, flatlining for some time before increasing again. Maybe Russian LE fluctuates a bit and it was doing so that year before the dissolution of the USSR made it a permanent drop. It took 12 years to recover from a drop of 1.3 in 1974 and then go up 1.1. By contrast it has been 22 years since it was at its last peak and it still hasn't made it up.
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Re: Can communism/socialism work?

Post by Iosef Cross »

Stas Bush wrote:
Iosef wrote:Today the tendency is against vertical integration, for the same reasons that socialism doesn't work: there are costs of information for large companies compared to small ones and there are the benefits of reduction of transaction costs in increasing size.
Strange. Why was the scale of mergers and acquisitions the largest in many years? Please explain, Iosef.
My god... You didn't understand shit.

I will need to articulate my argument in a easier way:

Here it is:
In a market economy millions of individual decision makers make their action plans (choices) based on their private information. These action plans are coordinated by the price system. Even the largest companies base their decision on market prices for their inputs and outputs. Hence, the market economy is based on the information existing on the minds of millions of individual decision makers and every individual utilizes the knowledge of millions transmitted to him thought prices.

If you abolish the market and try to organize an economic system with a single central plan, instead of millions of plans that are coordinated by the price system, your central decision maker needs millions of times more information than anybody in the real world possesses to make the system work.

How would you refute it?

There are several arguments that were developed agaisnt this theory. The three basic ones are:

1- Deny the usefulness of methodological individualism. I.e. Individuals do not make choices, individuals do not exist as economic actors. Marxism for example, assumes that only social classes make choices (the bourgeoisie, the proletariat, etc).

2- Deny that individuals have restricted cognitive skills. That a single individual can indeed plan the organization of an economy of millions of individuals with the same degree of efficiency as millions of individual decision makers. That information is not a problem for a central planning authority.

3- Argue that the information requirements of the price system outweighs the benefits of utilizing dispersed information. In the market economy, individuals need to have information regarding prices to make their decisions and to coordinate their decisions with other's. In socialism the central decision maker needs only information regarding the availabilities of resources, preferences and technology (to know how to convert the factors of production into outputs) but the central planner doesn't need to know prices, since there aren't trades in the economy.

The points 1 and 2 are idiotic. Only the point 3 has some merit. It is true that the aggregate information needed for socialism to work with the same level of efficiency as the market is smaller, since they don't need information necessary to coordinate individual plans, since there is only one plan! However, the central planner would still need millions of times more information than any individual in the market economy.

Any complex economic system needs decentralized decision making, prices and money.

The existence of large corporations is not a prof that individual decision makers can have the information necessary to centrally plan an economic system. They still buy and sell stuff and participate in the market. When they start producing all of their own inputs, stop paying wages and instead directly hire their employees by offering them the outputs of the company itself, when the owner lives off only of the produce if his company (the company would produce the houses of the employees, the building materials of the houses of the employees, the inputs needed for producing the building materials, etc.) them we would have a working socialist economy. This is impossible and will probably never happen.
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