Of powered armor, mechs and feasibility.

[PeZook]

You don't have to go all the way to African militia: pilots decorate their airplanes with ridiculous shit all the time. They just can't put hair on them, because of aerodynamic concerns, but ultimately, painting your A-10's giant fuck-off antiarmor gatling gun with an angry boar snout is the same thing as putting a snazzy pair of horns on your greathelm, or a wig on your mecha.

[Eviscerator]

I don't know if anyone has ever told you this Shroom but you are a very strange man.

My knowledge of the Roman Legion is somewhat limited, could someone post a list of its attributes and advantages/disadvantages compared to Crusades Era armor? I!

The Legions were some of the most disclipined and well equipped troops in that region, in that era. To cut it down to basics without consulting wiki-fu:

1) martial discipline : these were the guys who gave us Decimation, after all as a punishment. You try decimation today as a punishment.
2) well equipped: each legionary had as a basic his armour, gladius, pugio and sometimes javelin.
3) well trained: formations such as the turtle etc (as Asterix comics show).

These fellows set up a new fortified camp (walls, tents etc) every day as a matter of fact, which plenty other forces in that era didn't do. So they didnt have to make gore-tex armours or double heat sinks, they made a new camp to rest and refit every goddamned day
If i remember right by the time the crusades rolled around the Romans were long dead and gone

As final proof of the Legion's power: this was the height of the Roman Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RomanEmpire_117.svg
Hey, we've got the brits, the frogs, the deutsch, the eyetalians,egyptians, and even SPARTA under them. Where's leonidas when you need him?

[Eviscerator]

ultimately, painting your A-10's giant fuck-off antiarmor gatling gun with an angry boar snout is the same thing as putting a snazzy pair of horns on your greathelm, or a wig on your mecha.

I remember reading somewhere in a "btech guide for beginners" one of the salient NO-NOs was

x) do not paint your commander's/officer's Mech in gaudy/stand-out colours, this is in effect tellin every one to "direct your head hunting efforts HERE""!

There is ample precedent for this in modern combat, a submariner/pilot/tanker prioritises his targets according to what he sees:

1) submariner: carrier/major surface combatants get the torps first.
2) pilot: aim missiles at the largest radar returns.
3) tanker: gunner, sabot, antenna tank! (not those BTRs flanking the tank)

[PeZook]

x) do not paint your commander's/officer's Mech in gaudy/stand-out colours, this is in effect tellin every one to "direct your head hunting efforts HERE""!

It only works until everybody does it. If every mech had a plume of horse hair and a bunch of ornate decorations, then unless the shooter is really good at recognizing heraldry he won't be able to tell who's who.

This isn't to say camouflage isn't a good idea, but we're talking about freakin' mecha. They can't be camouflaged, no matter what you do. Hell, a wig can have some benefit at night: it breaks up the humanoid outline, same as putting twigs on your helmet or wearing a floppy hat, or using a ghillie suit. It will only work until you power the thing up and start moving, though, at which point you become a giant IR beacon.

2) pilot: aim missiles at the largest radar returns.

Well, no, not really. Also, even if you paint your F-15 bright red and write 'FUCK YOU COMMIES TRY AND KILL ME' on the side, it will have no effect on your radar return, so you might just as well do it anyway to piss them off

Obviously, painting a tank red is a no-no, because tanks are often located visually, so they need to hide. A mech can't hide, so it's moot and you really can decorate it however.

[PainRack]

I would like to point out there does exists a "feasible" realm for powered armour, although mechs are probably still no no. Namely, extreme environment conditions. A human in a spacesuit would still be cheaper than an armoured vehicle, right?

Add some movement and sensing capabilities within the possibility of human endurance and well....... you get the idea. No real benefit over unarmoured infantry, but an asset you need when you're fighting on Mars, Pluto or the Moon.

[Eviscerator]

I would like to point out there does exists a "feasible" realm for powered armour, although mechs are probably still no no. Namely, extreme environment conditions. A human in a spacesuit would still be cheaper than an armoured vehicle, right?

.

Ah, a human in a spacesuit is not a human in an exoskeleton/powered armour outfit. Scott bernard in his armor without his Cyclone is what your thinking of , now is it? Suit is not armor, now lets try to remember that. Would a Cyclone with all the bells and whistles be cheaper than a.... light strike vehicle?

Nevertheless, Mr Pezook, the whole point of the document which i read is NOT to have your commander stand out visibly from the rest of the unit, like say... Ace Darwin's Whipit's , what with his pink Panther.

I digress, on that "commies kill me" thing. Anyhow, i was referring to radar returns, as in pilots sent on antiship missions where they'd want to fire at the biggest radar returns being that said returns would likely be ships of carrier or major surface combatant class.

[Shroom Man 777]

What if our mechanoid pilots with bigass radar returns are a specialized suicide squad of decoys who are MEANT to be a magnet for enemy fire for diversionary purposes? That would be an awesome thing, and would make the whole FUCK YOU COMMIES TRY AND KILL ME damn awesome! A bunch of brave fearless obviously psychopathic mecha pilots sent on one-way missions to act as diversions, so the military can send other (stealthy and small radar signature) units in to do the actual fighting and killing! A bunch of... inglourious basterds! Not only will they have giant feathers and afros to make their gundamnimus appear HUEG on radar, they will also blare out ECM and ECCM and fill the radiowaves with goddamn horrible disco music and shitrap and rock and roll while taunting their enemies in open communications hurling trash talking bullshit profanities at people and screaming and shit! RADICAL! The giant gundam can even carry a giant stereo boombox for this purpose!

[Molyneux]

What if our mechanoid pilots with bigass radar returns are a specialized suicide squad of decoys who are MEANT to be a magnet for enemy fire for diversionary purposes? That would be an awesome thing, and would make the whole FUCK YOU COMMIES TRY AND KILL ME damn awesome! A bunch of brave fearless obviously psychopathic mecha pilots sent on one-way missions to act as diversions, so the military can send other (stealthy and small radar signature) units in to do the actual fighting and killing! A bunch of... inglourious basterds! Not only will they have giant feathers and afros to make their gundamnimus appear HUEG on radar, they will also blare out ECM and ECCM and fill the radiowaves with goddamn horrible disco music and shitrap and rock and roll while taunting their enemies in open communications hurling trash talking bullshit profanities at people and screaming and shit! RADICAL! The giant gundam can even carry a giant stereo boombox for this purpose!

I...can't tell just how sarcastic you're being. It sounded like an actual enthusiastic idea at the start, but gets a wee bit out there at the end.

[The Yosemite Bear]

mecha wild weasals pilotted by dumb emo 14 year olds who want to die...

[Shroom Man 777]

I like Speed Racer, Batman & Robin, and Armageddon - so, yeah!

(the concept is very much awesome, the idea of brave mecha pilots acting as bait with badassedly-geared gundams that look all badass, but I just wanted to make the concept funnier and stuff since that's my style yo )

[Eviscerator]

*rubs eyes: after one or two missions, it'd get circulated "calibrate your radar to NOT show targets that are emitting TOO MUCH stuff and also set radios accordingly. "

Gosh.

[Serafina]

What if our mechanoid pilots with bigass radar returns are a specialized suicide squad of decoys who are MEANT to be a magnet for enemy fire for diversionary purposes? That would be an awesome thing, and would make the whole FUCK YOU COMMIES TRY AND KILL ME damn awesome! A bunch of brave fearless obviously psychopathic mecha pilots sent on one-way missions to act as diversions, so the military can send other (stealthy and small radar signature) units in to do the actual fighting and killing! A bunch of... inglourious basterds! Not only will they have giant feathers and afros to make their gundamnimus appear HUEG on radar, they will also blare out ECM and ECCM and fill the radiowaves with goddamn horrible disco music and shitrap and rock and roll while taunting their enemies in open communications hurling trash talking bullshit profanities at people and screaming and shit! RADICAL! The giant gundam can even carry a giant stereo boombox for this purpose!

Congratulations, Shroomy, YOU MADE MECHA MAKE SENSE.
*gives Shroomy his medal, his own heraldry and a mecha of his choice*

[Samuel]

*rubs eyes: after one or two missions, it'd get circulated "calibrate your radar to NOT show targets that are emitting TOO MUCH stuff and also set radios accordingly. "

Gosh.

And then the primaries start emitting as much as possible, thus leading to constant race about what is a real target and what isn't.

Or they do this literally, thus explaing how a giant robot can achieve stealth capabilities- at least they aren't armed... oh wai-

[PainRack]

Ah, a human in a spacesuit is not a human in an exoskeleton/powered armour outfit. Scott bernard in his armor without his Cyclone is what your thinking of , now is it? Suit is not armor, now lets try to remember that. Would a Cyclone with all the bells and whistles be cheaper than a.... light strike vehicle?

Only in your definition of the word powered armour.
Spacesuits that can withstand sharpnel attacks in space are essential, otherwise, you're going to lose any single soldier to scatter damage from the equivalent of RPGs.

As for Scott Bernard, may I ask which incarnation of Macross/Robotech would this be?

Nevertheless, Mr Pezook, the whole point of the document which i read is NOT to have your commander stand out visibly from the rest of the unit, like say... Ace Darwin's Whipit's , what with his pink Panther.

It did work for him mind you.
Frankly, I agree with Ixjac on this issue. Mechs aren't stealthy. There isn't a point to "camouflage", not when you can pull the old Cyclops gambit.

[Night_stalker]

Camoflaged mech is a oxymoron, like accurate intel.

[Ford Prefect]

As for Scott Bernard, may I ask which incarnation of Macross/Robotech would this be?

Genesis Climber Mospeada. Also his name is Stick.

[harbringer]

On the differences of crusade and legionary armour which probably should be elsewhere....

Early armour was chainmail similar to celtic designs allowed protection and mobility in this case it would be a armoured suit/mecha designed to fight with tanks or where tanks arn't practical, capable of barely protecting against machine gun rounds.

Late armour depended on where the legion served and the exact period, the segmentum that is famous is a series of metal bands fastened with (from memory so i may well be wrong) leather thongs allowing similar protection to a breast plate or curaiss with better movment. Eastern legions wore chainmail or scalemail which was lighter and partly may have been in reaction to the climate, there were a lot of horsed auxilia in eastern armies as well.

Early shields were ovoid (according to a majority of sources) "imperial" rectangular and late again depends on where you are.

A legionary was expected to march something like 30 miles a day but forraged for food and built camp at night so distance may well have varied a lot from that (and in all probability far less than that) and may have been influenced by commander, experience, allies if any and terrain/season. As a reference most mechanized armies move about 30 miles a day.

Crusaders on the other hand were equiped with plate armour if you were wealthy and chainmail if you wern't, plate armour was a similar investment to say a ferrari now. You might have men at arms with you and these men probably got chainmail (although it isn't as uniform as it is today). A knight is said to have been able to do handstands in armour but this is after a lifetime of training equiped with a kite shield it was formidable armour - but archers and crossbowmen dealt terrible losses to mounted knights. Agincourt, the polish encounter with the mongols, and of course the crusades themselves. Knights dominated the battlefield from castles and keeps not just through their armour, a mounted charge by superheavy cavelry with lance could shatter infantry formations who had few methods to deal with them (palistinian clubmen used by the romans aside) or it could end up with mounted pincusions. Mongol strategy informed modern mechanized philosophy but the armour/Anti-tank race is as old as mounted warfare.

On the whole for an expanding empire subjugating large areas in relation to its original size light mobile forces seem historically more suited. Once the empire matures heavier forces predominate to allow for more able defense. Gunpowder of course changed all that since no armour could at the time be devised to counter a musket. Mecha and powered armour if they can effectivley deal with their threats and posses the required mobility find a place on the battlefield, however it is hard to see them in any way replacing a mature proven and effective unit like tanks or even IFV's.

Mostly from memory and any that isnt is all my opinions.

[Shroom Man 777]

*rubs eyes: after one or two missions, it'd get circulated "calibrate your radar to NOT show targets that are emitting TOO MUCH stuff and also set radios accordingly. "

Gosh.

But when the deranged mecha pilots flood the radiowaves with their horrible signals in every frequency, the enemy CAN'T see anything in radar! The mecha will be spewing out Minkowinko particles out of their giant boomboxes! Every anti-radar missile and home-on-jam warhead's going to be heading for the mecha's asses! And then they'll be saying shit like "They're ALL OVER MY ASS!" "Squeeze off some EXHAUST!" "They're COMING up on me HARD!" and shit!

[[R_H]]

In a role like powered armor, you'd need to have armor material which is good for many uses.

So then you'd be basically armouring it like a vehicle. Wouldn't the protection be well, nothing spectacular, making powered armour analogous to a tankette or weapons carrier (like a Wiesel for example)?

[Vendetta]

I remember reading somewhere in a "btech guide for beginners" one of the salient NO-NOs was

x) do not paint your commander's/officer's Mech in gaudy/stand-out colours, this is in effect tellin every one to "direct your head hunting efforts HERE""!

Any fool knows that if you paint your giant mech red it immediately becomes three times better than all the others.

It worked for Char, it can work for you.

[hongi]

That means using either a flying gun platform or a really really tall gun platform, and either way you're accepting the high target profile in exchange for the enemy being able to see you a long way away.

Doesn't a flying gun platform make more sense? Surely it'd be able to cover more terrain quicker than a Titan.

[Eviscerator]

I remember reading somewhere in a "btech guide for beginners" one of the salient NO-NOs was

x) do not paint your commander's/officer's Mech in gaudy/stand-out colours, this is in effect tellin every one to "direct your head hunting efforts HERE""!

Any fool knows that if you paint your giant mech red it immediately becomes three times better than all the others.

.

> . > obviously these "any fools" do not include anyone in any actual modern theater of war, at any time, barring Manfred von richthofen, but then in his age there weren't missles and shite

Show me one single verifiable picture of a unit in combat painted in said gaudy colors (IRCM flare display by Thunderbirds not counted).

[Eviscerator]

"They're COMING up on me HARD!" and shit!

Alright break out the lube, we gots bandits coming up on our six, their coming up HARD, and shit!

*rubs eyes. srsly if euur pilots blastx they boomboxes and radars loudslouds, caint the enemie pilots turn off the raadar and shite? dat is what dey radar OFF button do, it turned it radar off, and no no minkowinko particles can do anything becouse there is no radar to see your magic shrromy anti-radar measures.

word. peace. Emergency Blow!

[Simon_Jester]

That means using either a flying gun platform or a really really tall gun platform, and either way you're accepting the high target profile in exchange for the enemy being able to see you a long way away.

Doesn't a flying gun platform make more sense? Surely it'd be able to cover more terrain quicker than a Titan.

If it's practical to build one, absolutely.

In 40k this is not the case; the Imperium of Man can't build flying vehicles large enough to mount Titan-scale weapons unless you count orbiting starships. Bear in mind that we're looking at something in the multiple thousands of tons.

In Star Wars, they can, and in the EU they do, build large repulsorlift gun platforms.

[Molyneux]

I remember reading somewhere in a "btech guide for beginners" one of the salient NO-NOs was

x) do not paint your commander's/officer's Mech in gaudy/stand-out colours, this is in effect tellin every one to "direct your head hunting efforts HERE""!

Any fool knows that if you paint your giant mech red it immediately becomes three times better than all the others.

.

> . > obviously these "any fools" do not include anyone in any actual modern theater of war, at any time, barring Manfred von richthofen, but then in his age there weren't missles and shite

Show me one single verifiable picture of a unit in combat painted in said gaudy colors (IRCM flare display by Thunderbirds not counted).

He's making a reference to a well-known science fiction trope, possibly started by Char in the Gundam series. His mech was red, and was roughly three times better than any other mech of the same type despite being otherwise indistinguishable.