Eldar technology in light of refugee status

[Night_stalker]

And they wonder why humanity hates them so much. Regarding the destruction of the Chaos battlefleets, it seems to be mere pragmaticsm. After they were done with the IOM, they would move in on the Eldar so taking them out now mAde sense.

[Connor MacLeod]

Eldar are pragmatic. They do what they must to save their own species and what their precognitive efforts tell them. If it means allying with humans (Gothic War, Ichar IV) then they will. If it means slaying a Chaos warband (or Ork warband) and incidentally assisting or even saving a human force in the process, so be it. It can also mean getting the Imperium into an endless war they might not have otherwise had and killing off huge numbers of individuals just to save a few Eldar (ARmageddon.)

I suppose if they NEEDED to they might "run to" the Imperium, although in practice it would manifest more as an alliance between two different races towards a common goal, rather than the Eldar asking for help (ask a vermin species, much less the Mon Keigh, for help? INCONCEIVABLE!) The more likely approach is that they will manipulate other races into whatever assistance they need (again the way they have frequently done so with humans, cg the Illuminati and Sensei plot)

[Night_stalker]

Yep, they're pricks in that respect.

[NecronLord]

And they wonder why humanity hates them so much.

No they don't, considering that 40K humans hate all aliens regardless of what threat they pose, and have for a very long time, they'd be foolish to ask why.

Regarding the destruction of the Chaos battlefleets, it seems to be mere pragmaticsm. After they were done with the IOM, they would move in on the Eldar so taking them out now mAde sense.

You're basically logically looping the loop to try and make them look bad here.

Yep, they're pricks in that respect.

Just out of curiosity, what would you do in their place? Suck it up and forswear foresight on some kind of principle of fairness?

Note that the Armageddon War was not a few eldar lives, it was a great many, and Eldrad went out of his way to try and avoid causing it.

[Night_stalker]

Well, I sure wouldn't try and foist my problem unto another species, which is especially hypocritical given how they keep claiming that they are superior to all other species, save the Necrons.

Now can we get back on topic?

[NecronLord]

Well, I sure wouldn't try and foist my problem unto another species, which is especially hypocritical given how they keep claiming that they are superior to all other species, save the Necrons.

Morally speaking they are superior. Craftworld and Exodite eldar do not enslave their own people (every other major race does this, including humanity) they don't abandon their people (most of them do) they allow all individuals to participate on a relatively even footing, they allow outright secession from their society, and forgive such individuals whom other races would brand traitors.

As a society, I'd far rather be either of them than any other race (err, Necron Lords excepted) in the setting. Sure, not being dicks to your own people isn't that impressive, but it fucking is in-setting, and you know it. Who'd you rather be, someone on the bottom rung of craftworld society or someone in the bottom end of one of the Imperium's hives?

On the strength of the examples we have, when the IoM fights eldar, it tends to actually be because they're determined to steal something, or ignoring dire warnings about some terror. Eldar attacking humans based on reading the future is most often depicted as them trying to stop the humans releasing some greater-demon-of-acidic-penile-insertions or something during their blundering.

[Feil]

On the strength of the examples we have, when the IoM fights eldar, it tends to actually be because they're determined to steal something, or ignoring dire warnings about some terror. Eldar attacking humans based on reading the future is most often depicted as them trying to stop the humans releasing some greater-demon-of-acidic-penile-insertions or something during their blundering.

The Eldar involvement in the video game Dawn of War II is pretty damning. Long story short: there is an Eldar craftworld in the eventual path of a Tyranid splinter fleet that is in the process of attacking some Imperial worlds, so they make a bunch of SNAFU attempts to stop the Tyranids with some force other than the Imperium, first dumping a bunch of orks on their planets, then trying to blow up a forge world to slow the Tyranid fleet down. They end up just making it harder and more costly for the Imperium to stomp the bugs, getting a bunch of Eldar soldiers killed for no reason, and the Imperium beats the Tyranids anyway.

[NecronLord]

And the Blood Ravens' crazy plan was substantially longer odds than Idranel's operation. As for the Eldar deaths, yeah, consider that nerfing. The idea that that tiny squad level deployment would realistically munch through fucking avatars is ludicrous. As is the idea that a single squad of marines would destroy a hive fleet (they're not Maugan Ra!)

The course of events outlined there must be trillions to one against.

That's like saying her plans are nonsensical if suddenly the Chaos Gods have a change of heart and throw their entire weight behind protecting the weak of the galaxy or something. That's so fucking out of left field that it's absolutely unreasonable to expect them to account for it. The same can be said of what, fifteen marines at most, destroying a hive fleet (though this is obviously less extreme). For a realistic idea of the likelyhood of that happening, I suggest you play that campaign's tyranid missions without ever reinforcing your units (Canonically you don't just get new tactical brothers by walking up to the local power generator and beaming one down that's a game-mechanic player aide) no pauses during missions, no replays, no bizzare healing abilities (again, not canonical) maximum difficulty... I don't think Idranel can be blamed for not assuming these guys would pull it off.

Discounting unaccountable heroic actions, like fifteen marines destroying the 'nids, Idranel's plan would have sacrificed some human worlds to stop a tyranid hive fleet that would otherwise consume many human (and Eldar; remember all that talk about the local exodites in the sector who'd cocked up?) worlds.

[Eviscerator]

Eldar are pragmatic. They do what they must to save their own species and what their precognitive efforts tell them. )

I get Armageddon,and that whole Lord Of The Night plot thingy (set in motion a 10k year scheme to divert a CSM Legion from Eldar worlds), but at what point does trying to avoid the future become counterproductive? I remember from reading Fulgrim that Eldrad's attempt to alert fulgrim to Teh Grimdark lurking in the future made the primarch blow several gaskets and might have helped him along.

Can't recall at what stage that Laeran weapon had reached in its Insidious Daemonic Possesion attempt though at that point n time.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Technically though, in Dawn of War II, it was a Strike cruiser's worth of Space Marines, along with a lot of the local PDF and Imperial Guard, that fended off the Tyranids.

[NecronLord]

Technically though, in Dawn of War II, it was a Strike cruiser's worth of Space Marines, along with a lot of the local PDF and Imperial Guard, that fended off the Tyranids.

I'm pretty sure they were stated to be severely under-strength and unable to deploy more than the three part strength squads and commander. Certainly they were depleted and on a recruiting mission.

[Vendetta]

Technically though, in Dawn of War II, it was a Strike cruiser's worth of Space Marines, along with a lot of the local PDF and Imperial Guard, that fended off the Tyranids.

I'm pretty sure they were stated to be severely under-strength and unable to deploy more than the three part strength squads and commander. Certainly they were depleted and on a recruiting mission.

The Blood Ravens as a chapter are understrength, having been chewed up badly in the "we shall not speak of this again" Kaurava campaign, but there's still enough present to keep your squads reinforced, and it's repeatedly mentioned that other forces are fighting across the planets, and the Imperial Guard are present for a few missions.

[NecronLord]

Technically though, in Dawn of War II, it was a Strike cruiser's worth of Space Marines, along with a lot of the local PDF and Imperial Guard, that fended off the Tyranids.

I'm pretty sure they were stated to be severely under-strength and unable to deploy more than the three part strength squads and commander. Certainly they were depleted and on a recruiting mission.

The Blood Ravens as a chapter are understrength, having been chewed up badly in the "we shall not speak of this again" Kaurava campaign, but there's still enough present to keep your squads reinforced

And like the way they are reinforced and healed, this is dubiously canon. Storyline is canon. I don't recall hearing mention of others elsewhere on the same ship during the game. I obviously don't count the end, where a whole battle-barge shows up and so on.

, and it's repeatedly mentioned that other forces are fighting across the planets, and the Imperial Guard are present for a few missions.

The Imperial Guard were accounted for in Idranel's plans, and contributed not much at all.

[PainRack]

And the Blood Ravens' crazy plan was substantially longer odds than Idranel's operation. As for the Eldar deaths, yeah, consider that nerfing. The idea that that tiny squad level deployment would realistically munch through fucking avatars is ludicrous. As is the idea that a single squad of marines would destroy a hive fleet (they're not Maugan Ra!)

There's some....... problems involving the Eldar campaign in DOW II. Basically, the novel skipped over their presence and focused on the city fighting of Meridian, and finished up with Tarkus going MIA presumably dead when they boarded the Tyrannid warships protecting the Dauntless cruisers..... of sort.... my brain sort of blanked out the entire novel to protect my sanity.... the final battle IIRC was over Meridian, not Typhon though.

FRANKLY, I think a retcon is needed for DoW II. The Eldar campaign doesn't make sense from the SM point of view.... It however DOES make sense if there was a massive genestealer cult on Meridian, and what Idranel was doing was sterilising the cult. So, the known raids on House storerooms and etc and the massive firebombing campaign was aimed directly at this. The sensor stealth is attributed to the Eldar, we don't know that its the Eldar doing it. Ditto to the Angel Gates power failure, what we do know is that thanks to the novel, the Eldar did introduce the Orks to Meridian. Such actions, combined with the known food riots are signals of Genestealer infiltration and suits their MO much better.

So, the Eldar campaign could essentially be rewritten as raise a Ork Waagh on outlying worlds such as Typhon and Calderis, sterilise the genestealer cult on Meridian and use the Ork Waagh to fight back against the Tyranids forward elements, presumably, without the pyschic call, the hive ship won't be coming in, or at least, not as fast as before, leaving just the splinter elements for the Imperium/Eldar/Ork forces to deal with. Even if it does come in, a staggered wave would be much more managable than a coordinated strike by the whole Hive Fleet.

And like the way they are reinforced and healed, this is dubiously canon. Storyline is canon. I don't recall hearing mention of others elsewhere on the same ship during the game. I obviously don't count the end, where a whole battle-barge shows up and so on.

There was that squad in the opening scene that got swarmed by Orks above you. And the carcasses of Space Marine brothers on several missions.

[NecronLord]

And like the way they are reinforced and healed, this is dubiously canon. Storyline is canon. I don't recall hearing mention of others elsewhere on the same ship during the game. I obviously don't count the end, where a whole battle-barge shows up and so on.

There was that squad in the opening scene that got swarmed by Orks above you. And the carcasses of Space Marine brothers on several missions.

Presumably they'd be from local forts, not your ship, these planets being under Blood Raven demense and all.