Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Alyeska wrote:
aerius wrote:Mr. Coffee's link has just been updated, it now looks even worse for the cops.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37191818/ns ... ?GT1=43001
He is going to enjoy prison.

Wait, what'd I do now? Oh, you mean Officer Shooty McRetard...

Hell if the video shows what the lawyer says it does, I guess the officer didn't forget the Third Rule of Gun Safety. He just has extremely poor judgment of what constitutes a valid target or Detroit Police have upgraded guidelines for Being Black On A Day Ending In "Y" stops (That's a joke son, it means the cops is racist, ya dig). Either way, the rest of his department should take him out back and pistol whip the stupid out of him.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Flagg »

Feil wrote:A cop, go to jail for killing a black person? In America?

Pardon me if I'm skeptical.

I'm just as skeptical as you are. A fucking porkie sniper killed an elderly black woman being held hostage in Orlando and not only wasn't the sheriffs deputy charged, he wasn't even taken off the swat team let alone reassigned from his position as sniper.

A K9 unit got the wrong house to be raided in Daytona (IIRC) and pushed his K9 through the bedroom window of a 10 year old black girl who was subsequently mauled and nothing happened.

And any time an unarmed black man is shot they just roll out his record assuming he has one and talk about what a bad person he was so was it really that bad he was a completely innocent victim shot by a trigger happy cop?
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kuroji »

It's Detroit, Mr. Coffee; they'd end up pistol whipping more stupid into him than he loses just from being in Detroit alone.

Seriously, though, Detroit's problems with racist cops is comparable (if somewhat behind) Los Angeles' issues from what I saw the various times I was up there, and from friends who lived in and around it while I was an hour south of it. I expect it's probably exaggerated to some extent, but they got into the local news about smaller acts of stupidity entirely too often.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Alyeska »

And thats enough of the peanut gallery anti-cop sentiments. You can hate this cop. You can hate corrupt departments. But the degree of emotional outbursts against cops in general, thats going too far.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by loomer »

Oddly, here in Australia, we actually had a lot of dynamic entry drug-raids back in the 90s, against Asian gangs selling heroin. They didn't require poorly trained paramilitary forces - they required detectives and a battering ram and that was it. I guess my question is - for Kazie, in particular - why the fuck were we able to do it safe and efficiently with the barest force possible and you guys can't do it right with goddamn SWAT teams?
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

loomer wrote:Oddly, here in Australia, we actually had a lot of dynamic entry drug-raids back in the 90s, against Asian gangs selling heroin. They didn't require poorly trained paramilitary forces - they required detectives and a battering ram and that was it. I guess my question is - for Kazie, in particular - why the fuck were we able to do it safe and efficiently with the barest force possible and you guys can't do it right with goddamn SWAT teams?
I'd guess it has something to do with money.

Anyway, the police officer in question is clearly guilty of manslaughter, and providing false information. (assuming that round that he fired through the door is what killed the little girl).

If he was wrestling with the grandmother he should have be able to use his support arm to push her away and pin her against something or at least get her away so he could holster and then deal with her...the rest of the team should have been able to clear the house.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by aieeegrunt »

loomer wrote:Oddly, here in Australia, we actually had a lot of dynamic entry drug-raids back in the 90s, against Asian gangs selling heroin. They didn't require poorly trained paramilitary forces - they required detectives and a battering ram and that was it. I guess my question is - for Kazie, in particular - why the fuck were we able to do it safe and efficiently with the barest force possible and you guys can't do it right with goddamn SWAT teams?
Because you're guys were doing a job and not playing Commando? I love the irony that some Afghan terrorist is safer from the US army than American citizens are from their own police.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Uraniun235 »

loomer wrote:Oddly, here in Australia, we actually had a lot of dynamic entry drug-raids back in the 90s, against Asian gangs selling heroin. They didn't require poorly trained paramilitary forces - they required detectives and a battering ram and that was it. I guess my question is - for Kazie, in particular - why the fuck were we able to do it safe and efficiently with the barest force possible and you guys can't do it right with goddamn SWAT teams?
(loomer, I get a bit argumentative in this post, and I want you to know I'm not arguing against you but rather in general; we probably agree a lot on this matter.)

This is a result of the War On Drugs, in which seizing some dope is more important than safeguarding the lives of suspects, bystanders, and yes, fellow police officers. This is the result of a kind of corruption worse than some crook slipping an officer some cash to look the other way - the corruption of power and glory, fostered by government officials and politicians looking to make their name with numbers showing they're "winning the war on drugs" and feeding police departments arsenals of bigger weapons and revised legislation to help them assume the role of front-line combatants.

Go back to the article linked on the first page, the one from the libertarian rag; it cites Generation Kill, which highlighted that the worst shitheads Evan Wright saw in Iraq were the reservists of whom a substantial number were police officers and DEA agents.


No, not every cop is corrupt; yes, there are many noble and gallant law enforcement officers. But consider the role of the SWAT team; they dress up and arm themselves in the department's most prestigious equipment, and their job is to either take down the most violent offenders, or (increasingly) to break down doors and storm a residence. These are relatively high-risk duties, but they are also the most aggressive. And SWAT is specialized towards this role. What personality types do you believe will be most attracted to becoming part of a SWAT unit? Hell, imagine you're a cop, you want to help people, you're gung-ho about the To Protect And Serve motto, you want to be the best asset to your community that you can be as a police officer. Would you really want to volunteer for a SWAT team? Do you think you'd get the most satisfaction out of that?

(And yes, I know, not everyone on a SWAT team is like that; what I'm suggesting is that certain personality types may be disproportionately represented.)


The existence and use of SWAT teams is not in and of itself unacceptable; there are situations which can call for officers who are more heavily armed and combat trained than your average beat cop, but which do not call for deploying the National Guard. The use of violent entry is not in and of itself unacceptable; there exist conditions where the risks are called for. At issue is the excessive use (some might say casual or routine use) of such tactics, which carries risks which are unacceptable in certain circumstances.


Ultimately, there really needs to be stronger oversight, a civilian authority that can alter policy to attempt to prevent further abuses or errors in judgment and tactics, and can forcefully insist on the investigation of questionable incidents. The mayor of a city or the elected sheriff/commissioner of a county would probably be responsible for such a thing, so either the elected official wasn't doing their job, and/or the people failed to forcefully demand and elect someone who would do that job. I suppose I'm saying there's no one person that holds all of the blame, but similarly we all share a measure of the blame.


Except for the children. Imagine being in your room and a bullet rips through your neck and you bleed out on the floor, without the chance to fall in love or do any of the things you dreamed about. What the fuck, man.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

what the fuck, is going on with our police forces?

are they trying to start civil insurrection?
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Alyeska »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:what the fuck, is going on with our police forces?

are they trying to start civil insurrection?
Never assume intent when incompetence is a strong possibility.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Alyeska wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:what the fuck, is going on with our police forces?

are they trying to start civil insurrection?
Never assume intent when incompetence is a strong possibility.
Even giving them the benefit of incompetance (A booby-prize of a benefit if ever there was one,) they're still steaming full speed towards a major, major fucking incident - cops bust in on a wrong guy/innocent guy, innocent guy gets the better of them and goes Die Hard on them, shit-load of dead cops having startled the piss out of someone prepared to defend himself who did just that and waxed them.

Once that happens, all hellfire breaks loose. The cops will want to have him flayed alive, his defenders will (rightly) claim he was just defending himself in the excitement of the moment. For added bonus, they ought to trot out the Excited Delerium defense, aka "shit was going bang and I made my shit go bang until all the other bangs stopped" defense that cops love so damn much when they kill someone in a brawl.

This shit is only to be expected, really. It's going to happen sooner or later.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Alyeska »

There have been multiple incidents over the years of Police targeting the wrong house and all hell breaking loose. Situations of innocent people dying, police getting killed. Some times the civilian goes free, some times the police officer the civilian killed is the son of some politically important individual. And some times the police kill relatives of important people and so the poor schmuck officer who fired the shot gets crucified in court even if it was an honest mistake.

Warrants served on the wrong house are the most common cause of this wonderful clusterfuck.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

I see the innocent guy shoots police thing is starting to crop up here. Again, that makes zero sense if the warrant is served properly and that includes a no knock. Even on a no knock the police are suppose to constantly identify themselves as police officers and their intent. I can't stress this enough. If you shoot someone and it is obviously that you failed to identify your target you will be in deep shit. You are no longer innocent. So, no ShadowDragon. He won't be innocent.

Now if the police fuck up and aren't identifying themselves then you have very strong ground to stand on.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Norade »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I see the innocent guy shoots police thing is starting to crop up here. Again, that makes zero sense if the warrant is served properly and that includes a no knock. Even on a no knock the police are suppose to constantly identify themselves as police officers and their intent. I can't stress this enough. If you shoot someone and it is obviously that you failed to identify your target you will be in deep shit. You are no longer innocent. So, no ShadowDragon. He won't be innocent.

Now if the police fuck up and aren't identifying themselves then you have very strong ground to stand on.
Not this shit again.

If my roomie is drumming the first thing I'd hear is a flash bang going off followed by bullets. Now most robbers don't use grenades, but in such a violent and chaotic situation as a raid, sometimes people won't be thinking logically. This includes person like me, when the going gets tough I get going, sometimes I end up doing the right thing or times not. Maybe the cops just found a guy looking for an excuse? Maybe they found a guy in a blind rage after his pet and/or family member was shot? If both happened how do we sort things out?

The police shot an innocent animal or person. If you read or watch the news it would be reasonable to expect a person in that situation to believe that the cops will go unpunished even if they nailed the wrong house. The person shooting back is now doing the polices job for them and removing a murderer from the streets.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Vendetta »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I see the innocent guy shoots police thing is starting to crop up here. Again, that makes zero sense if the warrant is served properly and that includes a no knock. Even on a no knock the police are suppose to constantly identify themselves as police officers and their intent. I can't stress this enough. If you shoot someone and it is obviously that you failed to identify your target you will be in deep shit. You are no longer innocent. So, no ShadowDragon. He won't be innocent.
So if you're planning a home invasion, shout Police first?
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Norade »

Vendetta wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:I see the innocent guy shoots police thing is starting to crop up here. Again, that makes zero sense if the warrant is served properly and that includes a no knock. Even on a no knock the police are suppose to constantly identify themselves as police officers and their intent. I can't stress this enough. If you shoot someone and it is obviously that you failed to identify your target you will be in deep shit. You are no longer innocent. So, no ShadowDragon. He won't be innocent.
So if you're planning a home invasion, shout Police first?
Yeah, get a nice fake badge and a fake uniform that will pass in the dark and you too can shoot children and nobody will fire back for fear of killing an officer.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Aaron »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Fuck-damnit. What now? Reparations? "We are confident our officers followed proper proceedure?" "The operation was, on the whole, a success, despite unforseen circumstances?"

:banghead:

I can't say that I even blame the officer, per se - they were, after all, hunting down a fugitive wanted in connection with a violent murder, with all probability of being armed, dangerous, and having nothing to lose by attacking the officers - if he got startled in the dark and had reason to believe he was potentially only miliseconds away from being blown away or stabbed through the throat, opening fire might well have been the "right" course of action.


But I can sure as hell blame the tactics involved here. It seems like they were searching an apartment complex, or a row-house with several domociles, since they said they caught the man they were hunting for in the building. But that doesn't excuse this. Nothing can.


There is something fundamentally broken when we value the lives of people's beloved pets and guardians less than we value capturing a couple of kilograms of narcotics, and when we value the lives of bystanders less than the apprehension of even dangerous fugitives. It is "To Protect and Serve", right, and not "To Capture and Punish," or did I miss something?

Unacceptable. On every fucking level, this is unacceptable. Now watch it get swept under the rug 'cause the victim was a poor inner-city black girl and not a snow-white blonde damsel.

:banghead:
You certainly can blame the officer, the purpose of a flashbang is to stun the occupants before and while you affect an entry. If your lucky you won't even have to fire on anyone when you get in. If your just going to chuck it in and then open fire half a second later, you may as well skip the flashbang and go straight to shooting.

Now while the officer is definitely responsible for the act itself, I suspect that the "rot" goes quite further up. Shit like this doesn't usually happen in a vacuum.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by aieeegrunt »

Alyeska wrote:There have been multiple incidents over the years of Police targeting the wrong house and all hell breaking loose. Situations of innocent people dying, police getting killed. Some times the civilian goes free, some times the police officer the civilian killed is the son of some politically important individual. And some times the police kill relatives of important people and so the poor schmuck officer who fired the shot gets crucified in court even if it was an honest mistake.

Warrants served on the wrong house are the most common cause of this wonderful clusterfuck.
How incompetent are these SWATards that they're getting the wrong house? Seriously, that much testosterone poisoning?

The biggest enabler here is that there are usually little or no consequences for a cop that screws up, so why is it surprising that they're getting increasingly cavalier?
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Norade wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:I see the innocent guy shoots police thing is starting to crop up here. Again, that makes zero sense if the warrant is served properly and that includes a no knock. Even on a no knock the police are suppose to constantly identify themselves as police officers and their intent. I can't stress this enough. If you shoot someone and it is obviously that you failed to identify your target you will be in deep shit. You are no longer innocent. So, no ShadowDragon. He won't be innocent.

Now if the police fuck up and aren't identifying themselves then you have very strong ground to stand on.
Not this shit again.

If my roomie is drumming the first thing I'd hear is a flash bang going off followed by bullets. Now most robbers don't use grenades, but in such a violent and chaotic situation as a raid, sometimes people won't be thinking logically. This includes person like me, when the going gets tough I get going, sometimes I end up doing the right thing or times not. Maybe the cops just found a guy looking for an excuse? Maybe they found a guy in a blind rage after his pet and/or family member was shot? If both happened how do we sort things out?

The police shot an innocent animal or person. If you read or watch the news it would be reasonable to expect a person in that situation to believe that the cops will go unpunished even if they nailed the wrong house. The person shooting back is now doing the polices job for them and removing a murderer from the streets.
More tough guy nonsense. I actually think you would quickly take the ground, and do as told. That being said once again it is not reasonable to think that rare instances are normal. If you get so quickly taken up by the media do you get nervous if you see a person of middle eastern ethnicity on a flight?
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Vendetta wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:I see the innocent guy shoots police thing is starting to crop up here. Again, that makes zero sense if the warrant is served properly and that includes a no knock. Even on a no knock the police are suppose to constantly identify themselves as police officers and their intent. I can't stress this enough. If you shoot someone and it is obviously that you failed to identify your target you will be in deep shit. You are no longer innocent. So, no ShadowDragon. He won't be innocent.
So if you're planning a home invasion, shout Police first?
I've heard of home invaders shouting police before, but I've never heard of them doing that and dressing up in tactical gear. As I said before when you're using deadly force to defend yourself you are required to identify what you are shooting at, and that is the most critical counter to this position. The proponents of this seem to think that it is OK to shoot without identifying, but there isn't a firearms instructor out there that will tell you this.

Just a nice reminder of those rules a firearms instructor will tell you;
1.All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.
3.Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).
4.Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.

If you can't follow those then you should absolutely not own a firearm. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

aieeegrunt wrote:
How incompetent are these SWATards that they're getting the wrong house? Seriously, that much testosterone poisoning?

The biggest enabler here is that there are usually little or no consequences for a cop that screws up, so why is it surprising that they're getting increasingly cavalier?
That's not very accurate. When there is enough evidence to show illegal actions then cops are punished. However, those who prosecute police officers still must meet the requirement in the criminal code for beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Vendetta »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:The proponents of this seem to think that it is OK to shoot without identifying, and there isn't a firearms instructor out there that will tell you different.
And when people are panicking because someone's battered a way into their home, and it's dark, just how careful about identification do you think they're going to be capable of being?

Especially if there's no reassurance from the fact that it even legitemately is the police, because SWAT officers have a reputation for not carefully identifying their target and shooting 7 year old girls or family pets.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Vendetta wrote:And when people are panicking because someone's battered a way into their home, and it's dark, just how careful about identification do you think they're going to be capable of being?
Because the best way to react to someone else being negligent/irresponsible is to be negligent/irresponsible yourself... :roll:

You know what, I'm gonna just address this to everyone in the thread that's pushing this "hurf hurf shoot the cops" internet tough guy horse shit. The officer that fired did so out of gross negligence or intentional malice, you fucking retards. Does this mean all cops are negligent and/or malacious? No, it doesn't. Does it mean that because one asshole who happens to be a cop disregarded pretty much every fucking rule of firearms safety there is that all cops are trigger happy dumbasses with no regard for safety? No, it does not. Does any of what happened in this case justify being a negligent and/or malacious shithead yourself? No, it does not.

Two wrongs do not make a right, you fucking retards. If what the cop did is wrong and illegal, then guess what? If you do the same it'll be wrong and illegal as well, you will not pass go, you will not collect two hundred dollars, your ass will go to jail or end up dead.

P.S. If you're one of the fuckheads spouting off the above nonsense and you own firearms then call your local police department, ask if they have a gun buy-back program and surrender your guns because you're probably just as much an unsafe dipshit as the cop that shot the girl and shouldn't be allowed near a weapon.
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Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Vendetta wrote: And when people are panicking because someone's battered a way into their home, and it's dark, just how careful about identification do you think they're going to be capable of being?
How careful do I think they'll be? That's an impossible question to answer. I'm just telling you what is expected, and when you consider that they're using deadly force. That's not that high of an expectation..."oh no I expect residents to know who they are shooting at". Seriously? Are you even listening to yourself right now? Just to be clear you sound like you're saying that it is OK for someone in a stressful situation to use deadly force on targets that he/she has not identified.
Especially if there's no reassurance from the fact that it even legitemately is the police, because SWAT officers have a reputation for not carefully identifying their target and shooting 7 year old girls or family pets.
Reputation? I don't have a reputation for illegally shooting seven year olds or pets. My entire department doesn't either. So, when you say reputation are you speaking about police as a whole or are you talking about this specific SWAT team? Do you also know that this is probably one out of several SWAT teams in Detroit, so do the other SWAT teams earn this reputation? Are police as a whole guilty by association simply by being cops?

Reason why I struggle with that is you're suggesting that because a SWAT team here and there fucks up then it is reasonable to assume that a SWAT team is going to kill you or your pets. Do you have the numbers to support this? I'm a reasonable guy, and if you have the data to support that you would reasonably be at risk by a SWAT team raid to defend yourself during such a raid then present your evidence.
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Joined: 2003-05-06 02:36am
Location: Deep beneath Boatmurdered.

Re: Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I'm sorry, Kamikaze, are you a SWAT member? I'm not calling you out or challenging you to a dick-measuring contest, I'm genuinely confused and would like clarification. You seem to know alot about p[olice stuff.
Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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