Realism meets imagination: Super Soldiers

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah. Imagine what would be the case if we superimposed the "super soldier/citizen" idea onto say, the American South, or any sort of ghetto/inner city/low income area where there might be low educaiton, low violence, and the like. Having those sorts turn to crime or violence (especially when they are basically created and trained that way) would be a bad idea, methinks.

Any sort of "super soldier" project invariably is going to be tightly controlled, and the prodcuts will be at best highly restricted military personnel, and at worse slaves, and in neither case will they likely have the same rights and priveleges as another citizen. I'd guess then that in the non-slave case, what one would see is that recruits are on a volunteer basis - they basically enter into this willingly, and are bound by a contract to abide by the level of control this sort of "tech" needs. but i'm sure they could find folk who would happily trade freedom for security or basic necessitied (a place to sleep and 3 square meals a day).

[Rossum]

Or, if you really need your soldiers to be 'genetically superior' or something then you could just have one big planet for your super soldier breeding program.

In the Dune series, I think the titular planet was originally meant to grow super soldiers or something by having generations of people grow up in a hostile environment and have them fighting each other over water and such.

With your super soldier program, you could have every man woman and child go through medical test or training and see which one of them is the strongest/fittest/has god qualities for a super soldier. Then, take the best and brightest and send them to your breeding planet where they start breeding with one another and raising generations of super children. Then have all those kids put into the military and just have the Super Soldiers be that 1% up at the top who are incredibly powerful and loyal to you.

So, its less a case of genetically messing with people to make them stronger and more a case of increasing the power and potential of the people you normally recruit from. Just make sure to keep your super planet from rebelling or make them want to take over the universe.

[Connor MacLeod]

Do you mean the Sardukar? I dont remember them being genetically engineered. They seem more in concept like the "Hive ganger" militia from 40K - that conditions are so violent and nasty on the planet that only the toughest/fittest survive, and end up getting recruited into their "military".

[Ghost Rider]

The Sardukar and Fremen were done in fashion of what Connor mentioned. They weren't any different then any other man or woman, they just grew up in an enviroment that engender them to get better at violence.

One of the major factors always to consider of any solider is how they are still is how it is used and cost. Now I touched a little, but cost is always as simple as "That heliwhatever blew up with 20 of these guys...is that as much XXXX regular Joe Blow?". Even with specialized mission set up said troops will always enter a zone wherein the entire team can be lost. Said cost of them is so much so that it hinders in a fashion beyond regular cost factors of the military of said race/country/empire/madman? Then said investment is dumb to the reader.

You have to make the economics of this to be a ratio wherein they are considered acceptable losses, possibly even negligible or said reader begins to wonder why was the case made. Now, this scenario depends on focus of said tale. For single heroic tales, usually the reader disregards costs if suspension of disbelief is not pressed too hard. For a military story wherein said characters are thrown into the grinder? Suspension gets bounced around a lot more.

Now an interesting and likely more logical method is something that is directly touched upon and that is the soldiers are given implants(whichever and however) are extremely small but noticable upgrades, ie visual acuity for snipers. Let's say in your future tale, you can implant a small implant into eyes that upgrade to 20/20 for everyone, and done cheaper then putting a cap on a tooth. Now for military they can enhance it with small upgrades for said needs and such not without having said person always stuck with long range sight and what not. This allows said world to have small groups of people enhanced for a specific purpose but their said loss is nothing beyond the loss of regular soliders of that particular caliber.

That I can see far easier done rather then a massive overhaul...unless you reach resources that can be spent wildly and troops that are able to hold multiple roles with far above average accomplishment rates. The major problem is completely dependant on what style of story but also how you've fashioned your story's military.

As for genetics? Far too wild and immensely expensive to keep under control. Artificial is always better because you can control who gets what, rather then hope you might have gotten it right and that nothing else changes internally or externally.

[Teleros]

Or, if you really need your soldiers to be 'genetically superior' or something then you could just have one big planet for your super soldier breeding program.

In the Dune series, I think the titular planet was originally meant to grow super soldiers or something by having generations of people grow up in a hostile environment and have them fighting each other over water and such.

Doc Smith handled this sort of idea on a couple of occasions...

In the Skylark series, the Kondalians & Mardonalians have grown up fighting each other for something like thousands of years. The result amongst the Kondalians (the other lot get wiped out ) is a society where eventually their Crown Prince realises that there is science he should not know because he'd almost inevitably use it to blow the hell out of someone, quite possibly along with most of their solar system.

The other one is the planet Valeria in the Lensman series. It starts in "First Lensman" as a diamond-rich 2.5-3G planet (the figure varies a bit in the books) settled by Dutch colonists who basically colonised the place for its diamonds. Infant mortality rates are high at first, but the it's reckoned that within a few generations they'll be perfectly suited to the place. Fast forward a few hundred years and your typical Valerian man can look forwards (literally, it's a cultural thing by now) to dying in combat in the service of the Galactic Patrol as power armoured space marines, and most Valerian men are 6ft+, 400lb muscle-and-whalebone types who use a 30lb axe like it's a rapier and who can in full armour do a standing jump of something like 12 feet in normal Earth gravity.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'd imagine after serving his time, the supersoldier will either have been killed in action, or if he retires he'll have to "return" all the super-organs Uncle Sam's bestowed upon him. Certainly you can't KEEP any of that high-tech adamantium skellingtons or General Motors-patented cardiovascular system or Ratheon AN-SPQR passive-aggressive olfactory arrays, or Lockheed-Martin stealthy radar-absorbent epidermis coatings, when you return to civilian life! They'll have to rip your bones off, harvest your super-organs (maybe to implant it in the next batch of supersoldiers!), and cunt your eyes out, and staple your old original human organs back to you! These supersoldiers are gonna be Frankenstinian!

That's gotta be the best typo ever, or the most horrible expression of all time.

[Purple]

Another thing to think about is human psychology.
What happens if said super soldier no longer desires to fallow orders. There has to be some failsafe to allow you to shut him down be it some bomb implanted into his cranium or having him addicted to some substance that keeps him alive.

However, that unfortunately includes adding a purpose built weakness to your weapon that the enemy can exploit. And even worse, it will weaken the moral of said soldier since he would feel that you did not trust him to stay loyal.

[Simon_Jester]

Why do supersoldiers need to be implanted with suicide devices when normal soldiers do not? I mean yes, individually they're much more of a threat. And yes, there are issues if they go back into civilian life with their augmentations up and running. But in the military, they're not going to be all that big a threat individually. If a supersoldier goes rogue, you just dispatch ten supersoldiers or a hundred normal men to hunt him down, find out where he went, and drop an airstrike on him or whatever.

Unless each individual supersoldier is a Godzilla-like threat by themself (unlikely), you don't need to put suicide devices in them as a failsafe. The only context you'd need them in would be if you were worried about a mass-scale revolt... which isn't really likely if you don't have many supersoldiers and you treat them decently.

[Purple]

That is actually a weary good point however there are several things I wish to note.

1. If he does go rogue, you might have the issue of him selling his body to the highest bider for examination and duplication. And such a device (if explosive) would double as a good way of destroying the body in case of death to prevent examination and duplication.
2. If he does go rouge, they are more to defect to an enemy that will have ways of killing/turning others as well. Sending a bunch of guys just like that one that turned before examining just why he turned would not be smart.
3. If you do get a mass scale revolt you will wish you have them. And it also keeps them from having any ideas that they are somehow superior and that they should be the ones in charge.
4. Its an integral part of many SF stories and I felt obliged to point it out because of this.


#1 would only be applicable if the situation at hand is such that you do not want the opponent analyzing your supers and finding out just how they work so that they can be countered. (think death star plans)

#2 would only be applicable if the super goes rogue out of ideological reasons or if conditions for #1 are valid and you want to recover the body.

#3 would only be applicable if the social structure of the army is such that you have large numbers of them and they have an appropriate mindset.

I don't know how common 1 is but I assume that if something like a B-2 bomber crashed in the desert the army would try and retrieve/destroy any remains before they can be analyzed.

This all is assumption thou, so I might be 100% wrong. If I am, correct me.

[Simon_Jester]

A fair point, I suppose. If it's practical to reverse-engineer your supersoldier modifications, you don't want supersoldiers being captured by the enemy in useful form. The problem is that it's going to be nearly impossible to keep them from getting their hands on, say, DNA samples. It might be possible to self-destruct any cybernetics... dunno.

I think the disadvantages of fitting supersoldiers with suicide devices would trump the advantages, but that's just me.

[Starglider]

The problem is that it's going to be nearly impossible to keep them from getting their hands on, say, DNA samples. It might be possible to self-destruct any cybernetics... dunno.

Reverse engineering is only of (very) limited use for those two anyway. DNA modification, including cloning and implanting organs, is going to be critically dependent on the associated clinical techniques. Cybernetics will be critically dependent on manufacturing processes (smart materials particularly). Peer nations will likely have their own programs of similar sophistication and non-peer nations won't have the resources to duplicate the technology even if they reverse engineer it.

[Shroom Man 777]

If your supersoldier is defecting, you can threaten to murder his entire family and mail them to him piece by piece to his new address in Russkistania or wherever he's defecting to. Also, since we've got technology for supersoldiers, I'd imagine we can program a cruise missile to home into his DNA or have radars that can detect his scent or pheromones (SHROOMIRVS!), and let it do the job. Or as a failsafe we can genetically-engineer a series of creatures resembling a cross between hunting dogs and Terminators, and if anyone defects or something, these cybernetic DNA-homing hounds of hell will home in on you and kill the crap out of you! In your sleep! Mono-molecular sharpened chainsaw fangs! Nanomachine-enhanced venom that can turn your blood into grey goo! Mimetic poly alloy fur! Vacuum-tube powered eyes! Internal combustion engine turbine-propelled legs with hooves for feet! Passive-agressive bistatic radars mounted on antlers! Oh man. SMARTWOLVES!

Seriously, man, imagine the awesomeness of bio-engineering entire species of weaponized animals. Imagine what K-9 units of the future would look like! Bomb squad dogs with kevlar-ingrained skin, and with the diffusal devices that can come out of their mouths, or bomb-destroying shotguns protruding from their orifices!

[Night_stalker]

yeah, then when scuttlebutt gets to the other soliders, they will just accept it blindly. My advice is to secretly implant hynoptic suggestions not to defect, or if they get chips in their heads, a loyalty program that can be activated if need be.

[Ghost Rider]

yeah, then when scuttlebutt gets to the other soliders, they will just accept it blindly. My advice is to secretly implant hynoptic suggestions not to defect, or if they get chips in their heads, a loyalty program that can be activated if need be.

Or you could do the low tech and far less expensive solution of inspiring loyalty by upbringing! I wonder how those primitive natives without supertech ever got loyalty out of their people and their military...I'll bet it was aliens who created the pyramids.

Simply put, if you have a single solider revolt, look at his psych profile and go from there. If you have fucking groups revolting? Then you aren't doing something right from the start, and may as well exterminate them because you are fucking up something fundamental on far more then some crossed wire.

Also...destructive implants have a small problem. What happens when that shit malfunctions in the field? You've wasted a perfectly good asset because you are more fucking paranoid then the government currently is.

[Night_stalker]

Who said it would kill them? It would simply shut down their central nervous system, save the signals that control breathing and heart rate. Try rebeling when you can't move!

[Ghost Rider]

Who said it would kill them? It would simply shut down their central nervous system, save the signals that control breathing and heart rate. Try rebeling when you can't move!

Yes...because something that complex will never have problems at start, let alone with beings you've modified in even minor physical ways. Let alone said system adds more problems then solutions

Next up we learn why people learn the K.I.S.S system and why idiots like you need to think for just a few minutes before slamming wildly on submit.

[Night_stalker]

Just makng a suggestion. The psyche evals and raising from birth to be loyal isn't appealing to me because it could create fanatics, which we don't need. Look at the Hitler Youth from WW2, and though it might be a exaggeration, there is still a chance that it could happen. My method might be risky, tehnical, complex and totally unethical, but it has the advantage of being prepared in case it DOES happen. Your method is simplier and effective, but leaves open to the possibilty of a rebellion with no clearly outlined plan to stop it.

[Samuel]

People raised from birth aren't all fanatics, especially if you insure they are brought up to be loyal to the country and its people, not the government or a specific individual or party.

Your method is simplier and effective, but leaves open to the possibilty of a rebellion with no clearly outlined plan to stop it.

Tanks, infantry, air support- you know, normal responces to treason and rebellion.

[Ghost Rider]

Just makng a suggestion. The psyche evals and raising from birth to be loyal isn't appealing to me because it could create fanatics, which we don't need. Look at the Hitler Youth from WW2, and though it might be a exaggeration, there is still a chance that it could happen. My method might be risky, tehnical, complex and totally unethical, but it has the advantage of being prepared in case it DOES happen. Your method is simplier and effective, but leaves open to the possibilty of a rebellion with no clearly outlined plan to stop it.

So you want to use one of the more extreme examples, rather then look at how ancient and modern militaries recruited legions of soliders because your simple mind cannot understand that a soldier can be loyal with nothing more then nuture and education? How the fuck does your simple mind get around the thought of how militaries work? Either a fucking idiot or a kid who isn't looking beyond some perverse singular idea of how such things work.

And Samuel handled how rebellions are stopped in modern times. It's called having people recognize the signs and using superior resources to stop the bad apples...without having some complex redundant resource that can hinder the very thing you want to work.

[Caiaphas]

Actually, in terms of indoctrination, I was thinking of a program not unlike the one they had set up in 1984. To clarify, I mean the one in the Ministry of Love, when they're screwing around with Winston. Take everything they love away from them, use that direct info-feed (if I haven't mentioned it already, it plugs into your brain and downloads info directly into it) to implant loyalty programming into the soldier, and reinforce it with a computer chip stuck into the soldier's head... somehow. Only problem is, mindstates can be overcome with sufficient effort, and the chip can be fried with an EMP or whatnot and your soldier's dead from those electric shocks going directly into the brain tissue.

My reasoning behind this is that in my universe, that info-feed-a-ma-jigger can only be used by a certain percentage of the population successfully and harmlessly, and training with it must begin at an early age. When you're just a kid, you don't know what the hell is going on, and being kidnapped by the military doesn't exactly breed loyalty towards it. Not to mention that the gene therapies and the other artificial enhancements are going to work with an even smaller percentage of the population, and that the washout rate is going to be rather high, given that you're implementing heavy gene modification at an early age to the unfortunate children sucked up by the program.

Goddamn me for thinking up something like this.

[Caiaphas]

On second thought, scratch the chip and stick with the 1984-style indoctrination. Hopefully that'll be enough. Doubtful, though.

[Shroom Man 777]

Just enroll them into the Shroom Youth and raise them to worship your leader and something like that. Use the cookbook of all despotic regimes in history!

[Ghost Rider]

On second thought, scratch the chip and stick with the 1984-style indoctrination. Hopefully that'll be enough. Doubtful, though.

I hate when Shroom's ramblings make more fucking sense then people's regular yabbering...but here goes. Why the fuck go through all of this?

No really, explain for what reason you need greater indoctrination, rather then far more stringent choosing of said people. That and 1984 and so much other fiction give a rather silly indoctrination technique rather then studying history and looking at what they did and realizing that even the great and almighty 1984 makes less and less sense except in a case wherein the government is so absolutely in control that they can claim the sky is green.

As for the Shroom ramble, he's right. Take your pick of governments of that you have a despot that has been in some power. We have numerous accounts of how that is handled. It's easy, stupid and lazy but at least it isn't as fucking cliched as "MIND CO...I MEAN SUPER INDOCTRINATION!!!". Or is your government less a monolithic face and you require to actually think how governments control their armies and people and fashion said mental perspective on that.

[Shroom Man 777]

On second thought, scratch the chip and stick with the 1984-style indoctrination. Hopefully that'll be enough. Doubtful, though.

I hate when Shroom's ramblings make more fucking sense then people's regular yabbering...

I personally love it when that happens.

As for despotic control mechanisms... how about religion? Superhuman religious fanatics! That's something to think about. Supersoldiers don't have to be THAT brainy, they can be simpleton fundies who think the Great Leader created the world six thousand years ago, and that he intelligently designed ALL creatures! After all, if the Great Leader was able to mold the supersoldiers out of clay and breathe life into them, then of course he would be able to make the heavens and the Earth and two of every kind of creature. The threat of eternal damnation, and the fact that when Kim Jong Il screams there are storms, will be more than enough to keep the supersoldiers in line.

It's no different from those who worship Kim Jong Il, or the Islamic extremists or fundie Christians. I guess in that respect 40k actually got something right, aside from equipping their supersoldiers in giant fuckoff armors.

[Ghost Rider]

On second thought, scratch the chip and stick with the 1984-style indoctrination. Hopefully that'll be enough. Doubtful, though.

I hate when Shroom's ramblings make more fucking sense then people's regular yabbering...

I personally love it when that happens.

As for despotic control mechanisms... how about religion? Superhuman religious fanatics! That's something to think about. Supersoldiers don't have to be THAT brainy, they can be simpleton fundies who think the Great Leader created the world six thousand years ago, and that he intelligently designed ALL creatures! After all, if the Great Leader was able to mold the supersoldiers out of clay and breathe life into them, then of course he would be able to make the heavens and the Earth and two of every kind of creature. The threat of eternal damnation, and the fact that when Kim Jong Il screams there are storms, will be more than enough to keep the supersoldiers in line.

It's no different from those who worship Kim Jong Il, or the Islamic extremists or fundie Christians. I guess in that respect 40k actually got something right, aside from equipping their supersoldiers in giant fuckoff armors.

Religion has uses, but 40K did a bit of research in that the Space Marines are controlled and kept under such in a variety of ways, and you can easily mold these ways as ones own.

The consideration that these men and women are your family. It creates a bond that can differ between candidates but allows them greater loyalty towards each other, but not always to the state. So how to engender towards the state? Simple, make the belief that your state is simply more correct and right then said enemy. This is done through the fact of media and thoughts of general education. Those two factors are completely hinged upon the level of government control you are establishing. Why? People will have a varied level towards these inclinations and levels of enjoyment to these ideals then others, but when talking of millions to billions this should provide an immense resource. Also of note, are mental notes that an elite military force feeling superior to others and engendering that feelings that they are the real power in the military/empire.

Yes, 40K takes these to extremes, but we see these ideas in history as a whole. This is why I dislike the thought of needing some immensely radical means to a problem that has rational solutions, especially if you want a universe that isn't radically different then ours at our current state.