Sleeping 7-Year Old Shot by Police During Raid

[Kamakazie Sith]

After doing just that I still want to say that it is unavoidable that unfortunate things can and do happen to both sides. I wish that police would stay more on the side of being the ones shoot at as a shot hitting them has less chance of killing than a shot of theirs striking an unarmored person.

They are. Entering a house on a raid is one of the most dangerous things a police officer can do along with your typical traffic stop. These things are dangerous because of the unknown and that the police are required by law to identify threats and then take the appropriate level of force. Shooting an unarmed aggressive man is not acceptable because he can be dealt with utilzing other techniques. Shooting into a dark corner is not acceptable. Shooting through a wall when you don't know what is on the other side is not acceptable.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You can identify them enough to know they shoot a family member, in any other case that would be all you'd need to do. In this case that would be a terrible mistake.

At least you admit it would be a mistake. That being said it isn't going to be just one officer running in. By the time you've realized what has happened you'll be swarmed with cops. That's why they hit houses with the number that they do.

No shit, but if you believe that cops are out to get you and think you have a case why would you?

Some people believe god has told them to kill others. Do they have a case or are only valid cases based off of articulated facts. FACTS. Not opinions.

Listen basic math says that I'm more likely to have a bad run in with an officer of the law than a terrorist. I'd also say qualify what would push me into hating the police. Currently I think most cops fall anywhere between blatantly incompetent and barely average, but I could say that about most of anybody. However when I say that about the police it worries me more. I don't want anybody average holding my life in their hands, I want doctor level of training and standards for that.

I agree with your basic math. Basic math also tells you that you are likely not going to be involved in a botch raid where you get hurt if you are involved in a police raid...but you've been ignoring that basic math to continue to circle jerk the idea of firing on cops.

As for wanting doctor level of training and standards. Great. Can we have the pay as well? If no, then sorry you'll have to make due.

[Alphawolf55]

As for wanting doctor level of training and standards. Great. Can we have the pay as well? If no, then sorry you'll have to make due.

Why? Why does one have to provide a 200,000 dollar income to have better training and standards? It's not like police make horrible wages, in fact if you include benefits they make more then some low level doctors.

[Alyeska]

Listen basic math says that I'm more likely to have a bad run in with an officer of the law than a terrorist. I'd also say qualify what would push me into hating the police. Currently I think most cops fall anywhere between blatantly incompetent and barely average, but I could say that about most of anybody. However when I say that about the police it worries me more. I don't want anybody average holding my life in their hands, I want doctor level of training and standards for that.

Basic Math also tells me your more likely to have a Good run in with an officer of the law than a bad run in with an officer. So I would say your acting like a fucking retard using the most inane reasons to hate police for purely emotional and worthless reasons.

[Alphawolf55]

Listen basic math says that I'm more likely to have a bad run in with an officer of the law than a terrorist. I'd also say qualify what would push me into hating the police. Currently I think most cops fall anywhere between blatantly incompetent and barely average, but I could say that about most of anybody. However when I say that about the police it worries me more. I don't want anybody average holding my life in their hands, I want doctor level of training and standards for that.

Basic Math also tells me your more likely to have a Good run in with an officer of the law than a bad run in with an officer. So I would say your acting like a fucking retard using the most inane reasons to hate police for purely emotional and worthless reasons.

And you base this on what?

[Alyeska]

Listen basic math says that I'm more likely to have a bad run in with an officer of the law than a terrorist. I'd also say qualify what would push me into hating the police. Currently I think most cops fall anywhere between blatantly incompetent and barely average, but I could say that about most of anybody. However when I say that about the police it worries me more. I don't want anybody average holding my life in their hands, I want doctor level of training and standards for that.

Basic Math also tells me your more likely to have a Good run in with an officer of the law than a bad run in with an officer. So I would say your acting like a fucking retard using the most inane reasons to hate police for purely emotional and worthless reasons.

And you base this on what?

I posit that the overwhelming majority of Police Departments do not deliberately hire douchebags to serve as police officers. That there are a greater number of good cops and that you will have run ins with them that are positive, or in the very least neutral. That these run ins will occur more frequently.

And that people remember the bad while ignoring the good. Everyone remembers the cop that treated them like shit. No one remembers the cop that gave them directions to the nearest store. No one remembers the cop that pulled over the drunk driver. No one remembers the cop that gave the little kid down the street a lollipop.

Seriously, are you that fucking retarded? Is your argument that the majority of cops are dicks? Where is your evidence?

[Alphawolf55]

And I posit that the majority of police encounters even when made up of good and honest cops that are most likely them doing their job in some fashion be it breaking up an argument in the street, pulling someone over, ect, ect. While it's the fault of the individuals that they got into that predictament, it still doesn't change that it's a negative circumstance (Unless negative was meant to mean corrupted in which I apologize). Though I could be wrong but hey I was just asking you to back up your claims of objectivity.

Though I will say one thing jackass, you still didn't support yourself with any real evidence. Norade may be saying nonsense with shooting cops but he is right about one thing. He's more likely to have bad encounters with a cop then dealing with a terrorist but only because the latter chance of happening is near zero. You then claim that you have objective numbers that prove your point, when I ask you to prove it instead of doing so you just spout your opinion and then claim I'm calling all cops dicks and then ask me to provide evidence when you refuse to do so yourself.

[Norade]

After doing just that I still want to say that it is unavoidable that unfortunate things can and do happen to both sides. I wish that police would stay more on the side of being the ones shoot at as a shot hitting them has less chance of killing than a shot of theirs striking an unarmored person.

They are. Entering a house on a raid is one of the most dangerous things a police officer can do along with your typical traffic stop. These things are dangerous because of the unknown and that the police are required by law to identify threats and then take the appropriate level of force. Shooting an unarmed aggressive man is not acceptable because he can be dealt with utilzing other techniques. Shooting into a dark corner is not acceptable. Shooting through a wall when you don't know what is on the other side is not acceptable.

Yet all of this ends up happening and little girls and old ladies defending their homes are still shot and killed.

You can identify them enough to know they shoot a family member, in any other case that would be all you'd need to do. In this case that would be a terrible mistake.

At least you admit it would be a mistake. That being said it isn't going to be just one officer running in. By the time you've realized what has happened you'll be swarmed with cops. That's why they hit houses with the number that they do.

Yeah, but an officer or two may have been shot first and that's the point.

No shit, but if you believe that cops are out to get you and think you have a case why would you?

Some people believe god has told them to kill others. Do they have a case or are only valid cases based off of articulated facts. FACTS. Not opinions.

I'm not using it as validation, though depending on the jury it may or may not get you off, or drastically slash your prison time.

Listen basic math says that I'm more likely to have a bad run in with an officer of the law than a terrorist. I'd also say qualify what would push me into hating the police. Currently I think most cops fall anywhere between blatantly incompetent and barely average, but I could say that about most of anybody. However when I say that about the police it worries me more. I don't want anybody average holding my life in their hands, I want doctor level of training and standards for that.

I agree with your basic math. Basic math also tells you that you are likely not going to be involved in a botch raid where you get hurt if you are involved in a police raid...but you've been ignoring that basic math to continue to circle jerk the idea of firing on cops.

Mostly the officers around here are 'tards of the harmless sort, slow to respond and useless when they get here. I called in a verbal fight where threats had been thrown and one party had a record for assault, the response time was four hours and the officers arrived cracking jokes. Not the people I want holding a weapon, so even a 'good' run in shows a level of gross incompetence that should be unacceptable.

As for wanting doctor level of training and standards. Great. Can we have the pay as well? If no, then sorry you'll have to make due.

I'll take a tax hike to make every bodies lives easier. That's a no brainer. Police are under appreciated when they do well and the lack of funding is only going to lead to a loss of effectiveness that leads to more cuts in funding and so on.

Listen basic math says that I'm more likely to have a bad run in with an officer of the law than a terrorist. I'd also say qualify what would push me into hating the police. Currently I think most cops fall anywhere between blatantly incompetent and barely average, but I could say that about most of anybody. However when I say that about the police it worries me more. I don't want anybody average holding my life in their hands, I want doctor level of training and standards for that.

Basic Math also tells me your more likely to have a Good run in with an officer of the law than a bad run in with an officer. So I would say your acting like a fucking retard using the most inane reasons to hate police for purely emotional and worthless reasons.

Even a 'good' run in often shows that police aren't the brightest blubs and I'm sorry but I don't want a former C student handling weapons when my life is on the line.

[Alyeska]

And I posit that the majority of police encounters even when made up of good and honest cops that are most likely them doing their job in some fashion be it breaking up an argument in the street, pulling someone over, ect, ect. While it's the fault of the individuals that they got into that predictament, it still doesn't change that it's a negative circumstance (Unless negative was meant to mean corrupted in which I apologize). Though I could be wrong but hey I was just asking you to back up your claims of objectivity.

Though I will say one thing jackass, you still didn't support yourself with any real evidence. Norade may be saying nonsense with shooting cops but he is right about one thing. He's more likely to have bad encounters with a cop then dealing with a terrorist but only because the latter chance of happening is near zero. You then claim that you have objective numbers that prove your point, when I ask you to prove it instead of doing so you just spout your opinion and then claim I'm calling all cops dicks and then ask me to provide evidence when you refuse to do so yourself.

My position is that Norade's examples are simple Outliers. Exceptions that prove the rule. He has provided no proof even when asked to time and again to prove that police are by and large douchebags. This has gone on between two different threads now.

[Kamakazie Sith]

As for wanting doctor level of training and standards. Great. Can we have the pay as well? If no, then sorry you'll have to make due.

Why? Why does one have to provide a 200,000 dollar income to have better training and standards? It's not like police make horrible wages, in fact if you include benefits they make more then some low level doctors.

No city or department is going to be able to fund the training to give all its officers a PhD. Which means that the prospective officer will have to fund their education. Eight years later and a lot of debt will mean that person will want some return for their effort.

[Alyeska]

Mostly the officers around here are 'tards of the harmless sort, slow to respond and useless when they get here. I called in a verbal fight where threats had been thrown and one party had a record for assault, the response time was four hours and the officers arrived cracking jokes. Not the people I want holding a weapon, so even a 'good' run in shows a level of gross incompetence that should be unacceptable.

Guilt by association.

"I believe my local police are idiots, ergo ALL police are idiots"

Logical fallacy.

[Alphawolf55]

As for wanting doctor level of training and standards. Great. Can we have the pay as well? If no, then sorry you'll have to make due.

Why? Why does one have to provide a 200,000 dollar income to have better training and standards? It's not like police make horrible wages, in fact if you include benefits they make more then some low level doctors.

No city or department is going to be able to fund the training to give all its officers a PhD. Which means that the prospective officer will have to fund their education. Eight years later and a lot of debt will mean that person will want some return for their effort.

See now you're just assuming alot. One that the city wouldn't provide the training and secondly that the cost of training would reach anywhere near the 250,000+ that a combination of undergrad and med school costs and that it would take even close to 8 years to get the needed training when the military doesn't take that long. Those are all rather big assumptions.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yet all of this ends up happening and little girls and old ladies defending their homes are still shot and killed.

Yeah, because cops are human. Doctors make mistakes that cost lives. Scientists make mistakes the cost lives. Humans make mistakes, so you'll forgive me if I'm not moved by your powers of observation that do not support your insane claims in this thread.

Yeah, but an officer or two may have been shot first and that's the point.

If the cops take fire they're going to do their best to kill who shot at them, and as stated before they're going to be in greater number and better prepared than you. That's why it is absolutely stupid to fire on police unless you can logically conclude that they are their to cause you serious bodily injury or death. Nevermind the whole fact that it is illegal.

I'm not using it as validation, though depending on the jury it may or may not get you off, or drastically slash your prison time.

It might slash your prison time and get you placed into a mental health hospital. The point, Norade, is that it is stupid to engage the police in a gunfight. You have not be able to justify it beyond your own pathetic emo emotions.

Mostly the officers around here are 'tards of the harmless sort, slow to respond and useless when they get here. I called in a verbal fight where threats had been thrown and one party had a record for assault, the response time was four hours and the officers arrived cracking jokes. Not the people I want holding a weapon, so even a 'good' run in shows a level of gross incompetence that should be unacceptable.

Yet more baseless information. How many of the cops have you met? You called in a verbal fight...really? An argument, and you expect the police to abandon a domestic violence investigation to come running to that? Outstanding. Should they also divert from a robbery to go handle your verbal fight? As for jokes? Really? Jokes make someone incompetent to hold a weapon...what are you five years old? Oh no, he told a joke about the stupidity of the situation...I can only imagine what the verbal fight was about.

The facts are that they took four hours to arrive on a situation which was not violent. If there is something more pressing happening in your entire city that will take priority. How many cops do you think are working city wide during a given shift? You don't even know. You do not know any of the facts to make a judgement on whether the response time is due to incompetence or that they are occupied with something more serious. Before you even think of claiming that they didn't have anything better going on I want you to post the dispatch log for the department in question on that day you're talking about. If you can't then you have zero evidence, and you should shut the fuck up.

I'll take a tax hike to make every bodies lives easier. That's a no brainer. Police are under appreciated when they do well and the lack of funding is only going to lead to a loss of effectiveness that leads to more cuts in funding and so on.

We both agree on this.

Even a 'good' run in often shows that police aren't the brightest blubs and I'm sorry but I don't want a former C student handling weapons when my life is on the line.

If your good run was your verbal fight situation then I question your sample base. That's not a high priority call, and the presence of jokes doesn't mean jack or shit. I challenge you to demonstrate how jokes mean someone is unintelligent or incompetent.

[Kamakazie Sith]

See now you're just assuming alot. One that the city wouldn't provide the training and secondly that the cost of training would reach anywhere near the 250,000+ that a combination of undergrad and med school costs and that it would take even close to 8 years to get the needed training when the military doesn't take that long. Those are all rather big assumptions.

Fair enough. A PhD in criminal justice probably wouldn't cost as much. However, these are requirements set forth by the state and city governments, and are outside the control of the police.

[Alphawolf55]

See now you're just assuming alot. One that the city wouldn't provide the training and secondly that the cost of training would reach anywhere near the 250,000+ that a combination of undergrad and med school costs and that it would take even close to 8 years to get the needed training when the military doesn't take that long. Those are all rather big assumptions.

Fair enough. A PhD in criminal justice probably wouldn't cost as much. However, these are requirements set forth by the state and city governments, and are outside the control of the police.

True, I'm just contesting what seemed to be your "Police need to get paid more to be expected to do things more competently" argument since it seemed like you were suggesting police are somehow grossly underpaid or something which I apologize if you weren't. It just gets tiring listen to cops all the time talk about how raw their deal is when if you look beyond just paycheck (which is still competitive), police have a pretty good deal in most places (Obviously certain high crime areas not being included in my statement)

[Kamakazie Sith]

True, I'm just contesting what seemed to be your "Police need to get paid more to be expected to do things more competently" argument since it seemed like you were suggesting police are somehow grossly underpaid or something which I apologize if you weren't. It just gets tiring listen to cops all the time talk about how raw their deal is when if you look beyond just paycheck (which is still competitive), police have a pretty good deal in most places (Obviously certain high crime areas not being included in my statement)

Yeah, that's not what I was saying. I was stating that if you want to require doctor degrees then you should expect to pay a higher wage since those people who put that much time into school are aiming for being a lawyer rathar than a cop. Does that make sense? It'd be like requiring nurses to have doctors degrees, but still pay them the same. Doesn't work because they'll want to be doctors because it pays more.

[Gil Hamilton]

I posit that the overwhelming majority of Police Departments do not deliberately hire douchebags to serve as police officers. That there are a greater number of good cops and that you will have run ins with them that are positive, or in the very least neutral. That these run ins will occur more frequently.

And that people remember the bad while ignoring the good. Everyone remembers the cop that treated them like shit. No one remembers the cop that gave them directions to the nearest store. No one remembers the cop that pulled over the drunk driver. No one remembers the cop that gave the little kid down the street a lollipop.

Seriously, are you that fucking retarded? Is your argument that the majority of cops are dicks? Where is your evidence?

I suspect most people's reaction on this front is because statistically speaking, the most a person is likely to interact with a cop is when the cop is pulling them over for a traffic violation. For example, in my adult life, I've spoken to an on duty cop three times, and two of which were because I was pulled over. The one time, I was being fleeced, where the cop decided that even though I had no prior traffic violations and that it was 1AM in the morning at an empty intersection and because he claimed that I didn't make a complete and total righteous stop (I did in fact), it was worth grilling me over like I was a drunk driver and then giving me a 100 dollar ticket.

The other time, the Tucson cop stopped me to ask me to turn on my headlights, because it was drizzling and Tucson drivers go to absolute shit if any moisture falls from the sky. He was a genuinely friendly guy.

I still get nervous as shit when I see a police cruiser, because of the first one. There is absolutely no denying that one of the main functions of many police departments is making sure people passing through leave some of their money behind in some local jurisdiction in the form of traffic violations that no one ever goes back to those places to contest. Don't believe me? There is a reason that going between zero and four MPH over the speed limit in rural Arizona is an automatic ticket that costs nearly 300 dollars. The fact that the police are a revenue raising arm of many areas, particularly rural areas, makes my immediate response to actually seeing a cop a negative one. After all, if the average cop is approaching me, it is much more likely that he's about to start raising money for the city than he is to be friendly and give me directions.

[PeZook]

That would all be fine and dandy but there is no evidence beyond anecdote and the personal feelings of a few people that we are anywhere near a state where most people see the police as an occupying army. Even people in neighborhoods where trust for the police is relatively low generally do not think in those terms, and generally have the highest rates of crime in the first place. It's common for criminals to have hostile attitudes towards the police, but that says nothing about legitimacy.

There is evidence, however, that something is seriously wrong in America, since it has orders of magnitude more murders (per capita!) of police officers than any other developed country. In 2008, 56 US police officers were murdered. In britain?

TWO.

There is a problem, though I agree we can't ascertain the cause based on that data alone.

EDIT: Actually, I was wrong. Britain had no officers murdered in 2008, I remembered it wrong.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yeah the problem is that parts of the US are barely holding up to third world standards. I'm willing to bet places like Detroit and what have you are dragging the rest of the country down, not to mention whaty the war on drugs is doing in other poverty stricken parts of the country. Oh and the whole rust belt situation creating more poverty and ghost towns etc etc...

[Norade]

Yet all of this ends up happening and little girls and old ladies defending their homes are still shot and killed.

Yeah, because cops are human. Doctors make mistakes that cost lives. Scientists make mistakes the cost lives. Humans make mistakes, so you'll forgive me if I'm not moved by your powers of observation that do not support your insane claims in this thread.

Indeed they all do make mistakes that cost lives, but doctors stand to lose a practice if word gets out, scientist run the risk of being fired, losing tenure, and finding their papers fit only to repel publishers with. Police are the only group that can harm you with near impunity and they are supposed to be the best of us. Not whatever happened to apply.

Yeah, but an officer or two may have been shot first and that's the point.

If the cops take fire they're going to do their best to kill who shot at them, and as stated before they're going to be in greater number and better prepared than you. That's why it is absolutely stupid to fire on police unless you can logically conclude that they are their to cause you serious bodily injury or death. Nevermind the whole fact that it is illegal.

Yeah, that isn't the point. The point is two cops and another person are dead in the wrong house. Illegal or not it's still a preventable tragedy.

I'm not using it as validation, though depending on the jury it may or may not get you off, or drastically slash your prison time.

It might slash your prison time and get you placed into a mental health hospital. The point, Norade, is that it is stupid to engage the police in a gunfight. You have not be able to justify it beyond your own pathetic emo emotions.

No shit, I already said it was stupid a post back, or did you forget by the time you responded? The fact is, people will still do things like shooting an officer after a loved one dies in a botched raid and damn the jail time. Damn it twice if the raid was served to the wrong house, and thrice if the cops shot first.

Mostly the officers around here are 'tards of the harmless sort, slow to respond and useless when they get here. I called in a verbal fight where threats had been thrown and one party had a record for assault, the response time was four hours and the officers arrived cracking jokes. Not the people I want holding a weapon, so even a 'good' run in shows a level of gross incompetence that should be unacceptable.

Yet more baseless information. How many of the cops have you met? You called in a verbal fight...really? An argument, and you expect the police to abandon a domestic violence investigation to come running to that? Outstanding. Should they also divert from a robbery to go handle your verbal fight? As for jokes? Really? Jokes make someone incompetent to hold a weapon...what are you five years old? Oh no, he told a joke about the stupidity of the situation...I can only imagine what the verbal fight was about.

The facts are that they took four hours to arrive on a situation which was not violent. If there is something more pressing happening in your entire city that will take priority. How many cops do you think are working city wide during a given shift? You don't even know. You do not know any of the facts to make a judgement on whether the response time is due to incompetence or that they are occupied with something more serious. Before you even think of claiming that they didn't have anything better going on I want you to post the dispatch log for the department in question on that day you're talking about. If you can't then you have zero evidence, and you should shut the fuck up.

The fact that it was an argument started when I was attempting to remove an unwanted person with a prior record from my house, I'd say it warranted a bit less than 4 hours. They sent two cars, so they obviously didn't think that it wasn't serious. Then the officers, approached apathetically did nothing, I myself having solved the issue in the time between call and arrival, and left while making jokes. Most jobs that would be enough to get you fired, or at least reviewed.

Even a 'good' run in often shows that police aren't the brightest blubs and I'm sorry but I don't want a former C student handling weapons when my life is on the line.

If your good run was your verbal fight situation then I question your sample base. That's not a high priority call, and the presence of jokes doesn't mean jack or shit. I challenge you to demonstrate how jokes mean someone is unintelligent or incompetent.

That was a top of head example, and likely not the best story, but every officer I've ever met has had apathetic attitude and usually they handled the issue in the clumsiest way I could think of. That combined with news stories and anecdotes leads me to believe that our cities 'finest' may not fit the bill.

[Soontir C'boath]

As much as I liked to sympathize with cops, reading this thread of Kami, Alyeska, and especially Sanchez's response of macho chest beating makes me feel that I shouldn't give two shits about them.

What I am taking out of this thread is that people are scared of these sort of things happening from an organization that we need to trust pretty much completely and you guys are not helping.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Indeed they all do make mistakes that cost lives, but doctors stand to lose a practice if word gets out, scientist run the risk of being fired, losing tenure, and finding their papers fit only to repel publishers with. Police are the only group that can harm you with near impunity and they are supposed to be the best of us. Not whatever happened to apply.

Again, a baseless claim. Are you going for a record or something of making claims and not supporting them?

Police officers are entitled to the same rights as everybody else. Thus, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they had committed a crime. If that doesn't work for you then you can still sue, and many people win in those lawsuits...even some that are based upon lies because the city doesn't want to let it drag out.

Yeah, that isn't the point. The point is two cops and another person are dead in the wrong house. Illegal or not it's still a preventable tragedy.

I completely agree. Don't get me wrong, Norade. The results of the OP are completely avoidable, and should never happen. Like I said earlier I don't see how you can possibly hit the wrong house if you've done the proper leg work.

No shit, I already said it was stupid a post back, or did you forget by the time you responded? The fact is, people will still do things like shooting an officer after a loved one dies in a botched raid and damn the jail time. Damn it twice if the raid was served to the wrong house, and thrice if the cops shot first.

People will do that stuff in a legitament raid where someone gets justifiably shot. The only difference is everybody loses instead of just the police.



The fact that it was an argument started when I was attempting to remove an unwanted person with a prior record from my house, I'd say it warranted a bit less than 4 hours. They sent two cars, so they obviously didn't think that it wasn't serious. Then the officers, approached apathetically did nothing, I myself having solved the issue in the time between call and arrival, and left while making jokes. Most jobs that would be enough to get you fired, or at least reviewed.

That was a top of head example, and likely not the best story, but every officer I've ever met has had apathetic attitude and usually they handled the issue in the clumsiest way I could think of. That combined with news stories and anecdotes leads me to believe that our cities 'finest' may not fit the bill.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. I wonder how many officers you've actually met? Given your track record of poor judgement which is probably due to inexperience in life and since you probably can't tell me the situation or why they handled in in the clumsiest way you could think of I'm probably not going to give you much credit.

That being said. Yeah, there are some very stupid cops out there. That's for damn sure. However, you need to think about how you phrase your sentences because you come off as "all cops are stupid". Which is completely inaccurate, and dishonest because you are not in a position to make the judgement.

[Kamakazie Sith]

As much as I liked to sympathize with cops, reading this thread of Kami, Alyeska, and especially Sanchez's response of macho chest beating makes me feel that I shouldn't give two shits about them.

What I am taking out of this thread is that people are scared of these sort of things happening from an organization that we need to trust pretty much completely and you guys are not helping.

Soontir, I'm not sure what macho chest beating you're refering to? Have you read the entire thread? Can you tell me what motivated my second post in this thread and thus started the following conversation?

As for helping? How would you recommend we help in this situation? Should we encourage generalization fallacies? Should we tolerate them? Should we tolerate remarks about shooting cops coming to your house?

[Norade]

Misposted, see my post on the next page.

[Soontir C'boath]

Soontir, I'm not sure what macho chest beating you're refering to? Have you read the entire thread? Can you tell me what motivated my second post in this thread and thus started the following conversation?

The chest beating refers only to Sanchez's post.

As for helping? How would you recommend we help in this situation? Should we encourage generalization fallacies? Should we tolerate them? Should we tolerate remarks about shooting cops coming to your house?

No, of course not but the way you are doing it now is basically trying to club it into their heads and hope they'll bleed out the stupid. If you were the Mayor trying to calm the public down, you'd tanked.

Your arguments pretty much defend the police. Stating their procedures and so forth of why they do the things they do should be part your argument but not the whole. What you are not doing is addressing the other side of the equation which is the people they are suppose to protect.

The main problem I see here is you are not convincing us to trust the police at the levels we need to which is a very large issue at stake here given what has occurred. If people are considering fighting first and ask questions later even if it is the police, it means they think their lives are in danger no matter if it's a good or bad cop. They are not going to give a shit about getting positive identification because most people don't have a 'bad' detector. You have people that have anecdote claims or watch too many television shows involving bad cops and your job should be to defuse them by stating what police are doing about those kind of things or if they are not as prominent as they seem to be. Are there a considerable amount of these troublemakers of the force actually being reprimanded/demoted or kicked off the force, or are they hiding behind the Blue Wall of Silence and getting away with it?

Funny thing is, you asked Vendetta to provide a source if a great majority of SWAT teams are doing such things to convince yourself but must actually be done to help convince the public being served to not shoot at you.

___________________
If there is anything to take from this case is when feasible, cops should not only have a camera in their car but on themselves as well. The only reason I see here that this officer did not get away with lying about shooting in a struggle was because of the camera crew that filmed it giving damning evidence that he cannot escape from.