if the GAR were made up of average humans, you simply would not have a functioning army now. Clone troopers are optimized humans, and only two percent of the population could be as tough, resilient and aggressive as these men are
I'm pretty sure 2% of the human population would outnumber 3 million clones rather significantly.
It is things like this that remind me just How totally CLUELESS Traviss is about numbers, and more how she 'perceives' numbers. I am sure she thinks "2%" thats tiny, you could never get an army from 2% of the population!"
Well when your population is Trillions upon Trillions of candidates, 2% adds up VERY fast,
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After spending the last few days gazing over my new copy of the Star Wars Atlas I have to say that 3 million clones for an army that has to fight over hundreds, if not thousands, of worlds simultaneously, is a bit absurd. Not to mention that 3 million is probably barely a fraction of the number of Shock Troopers that garrisoned Coruscant during the war. And the additional information regarding fleet strengths and the government orders for thousands of more vessels, with cannon books identifying nearly all their crews as clones, that anything less than hundreds of millions of clones would simply not be enough to fight a war like the Clone Wars.
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Here's the quote from Star Wars New Essential Chronology:
...The Republic began investigating alternative cloning methods (with Spaarti Creations coming into prominence within the next year). Conscription, however, was a necessary reality. Countless beings of every species became draftees into the Grand Army of the Republic.
Plus naval crews included a whole lot of non-clones such as Gilad Pellaeon and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say the reason why we don't see non-clone GAR soldiers in the movies, television series, and novels is that regular humans are fighting in clone trooper armour.
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General Mung Beans wrote:
Plus naval crews included a whole lot of non-clones such as Gilad Pellaeon and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say the reason why we don't see non-clone GAR soldiers in the movies, television series, and novels is that regular humans are fighting in clone trooper armour.
Except we don't see where any of those are depicted, and I do not think the clonetroopers/stormtroopers opened up to outsiders until after the establishment of the Empire. I believe this was mentioned in Allegiance by Tim Zahn and IIRC it was in the cutscenes for Battlefront II.
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Darth Fanboy wrote:Except we don't see where any of those are depicted, and I do not think the clonetroopers/stormtroopers opened up to outsiders until after the establishment of the Empire. I believe this was mentioned in Allegiance by Tim Zahn and IIRC it was in the cutscenes for Battlefront II.
You are correct. The Clone Wars Sourcebook mentions Duros sending it's planetary militia on offensive operations as a unique enough event to warrant attention, which would mean overwhelmingly the planetary militias stayed on their planet of origin.
Which makes sense, really. John Q. Conscript would undoubtedly be more motivated if he's tasked with defending his home from attack, rather than, as Kingmaker said, fighting to retake some planet he's never heard of.
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Well the sourcebook also notes that there wasn't a whole lot of conscription on either side, it happened but not often. I would assume this is because for the Seps droids are cheaper and the Republic has clones.
Actually I remember (even from the sourcebook) that non-clone forces weren't exactly minor. But due to various factors (logistics being a big one) non-clone forces would probably be used either for garrison duty or local defense (basically they'd serve as the SW equilvaent of 40K Planetary Defence forces and only operate within their own systems/sectors and own logistical chains. This would actually mesh with what we hear about the Republic Army from the ISB, as I remember it.)
Conscription is jut one way to recruit non-clone troops after all.
The Clones would be a more active, mobile force. THey would carry out the bulk of offensive operations, adn they would also be deployed when needed to bolster defenses of beleagured pplanets (EG Kashyyyk, Praestilyn, etc.), guard important planets (EG coruscant - but that was also a separate arm of the clone army as wlel sa I recall - the red armored shocktroopers.) . I don't think there has ever been any indication that the Clone army did both by itself exclusively.
I'd also submit that an offesnive, deployed force (the clone troops used to actually assault the Separatists) can reasonably be a smaller force than the defensive one (which was separate from the GAR IIRC the sourcebook - the shocktroopers were their own force) even for Star Wars, carrying out logistics over long ranges is going to be a complicated issue (unless they used completely droid based forces or support structure, which they didn't to my knowlege.)
Connor MacLeod wrote:Actually I remember (even from the sourcebook) that non-clone forces weren't exactly minor.
You wouldn't happen to remember where you read this would you?
Well there's that quote from the New Essential Chronology a few posts above.
BTW did the CIS also have notable sentinent forces that weren't just locally based? I remember that there were some Neimodian soldiers on CIS warships.
El Moose Monstero: That would be the winning song at Eurovision. I still say the Moldovans were more fun. And that one about the Apricot Tree.
That said...it is growing on me.
Thanas: It is one of those songs that kinda get stuck in your head so if you hear it several times, you actually grow to like it.
General Zod: It's the musical version of Stockholm syndrome.
Ugolino wrote:Also, I think some of the older sourcebooks had Imperial officers who'd served as infantry in the clone wars for the Republic.
Wasn't that when everyone thought the clones were on against the Republic in the Clone Wars?
El Moose Monstero: That would be the winning song at Eurovision. I still say the Moldovans were more fun. And that one about the Apricot Tree.
That said...it is growing on me.
Thanas: It is one of those songs that kinda get stuck in your head so if you hear it several times, you actually grow to like it.
General Zod: It's the musical version of Stockholm syndrome.
General Mung Beans wrote:BTW did the CIS also have notable sentinent forces that weren't just locally based? I remember that there were some Neimodian soldiers on CIS warships.
The Neimodian Gunnery Battalion, I recall it. It was usually deployed on sensible locations or with important officers that needed to be defended by more than droids vulnerable to deactivation. I remember there were other organic units, but I don't know a lot about their use or deployment.
General Mung Beans wrote:BTW did the CIS also have notable sentinent forces that weren't just locally based? I remember that there were some Neimodian soldiers on CIS warships.
The Neimodian Gunnery Battalion, I recall it. It was usually deployed on sensible locations or with important officers that needed to be defended by more than droids vulnerable to deactivation. I remember there were other organic units, but I don't know a lot about their use or deployment.
There's also the Quarren forces from the Clone Wars cartoon, and a few mentions and depictions of organic troops in some books and comics.
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Historically, armed forces of nations in state of total war had 10% of the total population of a country or 20% of their labor force engaged in war. The possibility of cloning or producing droids increase this potential.
Not all soldiers of a modern (much less futuristic armed force, like the ones in Starwars) armed force are in the battlefield, usually for every soldier at the tip of a spear there are several supporting soldiers. These don't need to be clones, even if all soldiers actually fighting are.
A low limit of the size of the Clone Army assuming that the Clone Wars would be a total war fought primarily by Clones would be around 23 trillion (if out of the original 1 million member systems of the Galactic Republic, the republic controls 700 000 and the average population of each is 1 billion, then 10% of their population in the armed forces would be 70 trillion people, if clones are 1/3 of this armed force personnel, the total size of the Clone army is 23 trillion).
Ugolino wrote:Also, I think some of the older sourcebooks had Imperial officers who'd served as infantry in the clone wars for the Republic.
You are correct. Dark Forces and some newer sources make reference to the fact that the mastermind of the Dark Troopers, General Rom Mohc, fought in the Clone Wars alongside clone and regular soldiers.
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Well duh, the US Armed Forces have around ~2.9 million troops with only 1% of the population. The entire Republic would only have 150 million human citizens if it takes 2% of the population to equal the clones.
Well duh, the US Armed Forces have around ~2.9 million troops with only 1% of the population. The entire Republic would only have 150 million human citizens if it takes 2% of the population to equal the clones.
What if you decided to define "population" as meaning military personnel (not just Republic Military but also the various defense forces)? I don't know if you could stretch the quote that far though. But if you did wouldn't that give you elite soldiers? Possibly Special Forces-grade? I doubt Special Forces even makes 2% of military personnel in today's military.
Ugolino wrote:Also, I think some of the older sourcebooks had Imperial officers who'd served as infantry in the clone wars for the Republic.
Don't know about the infantry, but according to ROTS novelization Pellaeon fought at Coruscant against the CIS, and his ship even helped the Guarlara in bringing down the Invisible Hand.
lord Martiya wrote:Don't know about the infantry, but according to ROTS novelization Pellaeon fought at Coruscant against the CIS, and his ship even helped the Guarlara in bringing down the Invisible Hand.
I don't have the book on hand, but I think that was Lorth Needa, not Pelly.
lord Martiya wrote:Don't know about the infantry, but according to ROTS novelization Pellaeon fought at Coruscant against the CIS, and his ship even helped the Guarlara in bringing down the Invisible Hand.
I don't have the book on hand, but I think that was Lorth Needa, not Pelly.
lord Martiya wrote:Don't know about the infantry, but according to ROTS novelization Pellaeon fought at Coruscant against the CIS, and his ship even helped the Guarlara in bringing down the Invisible Hand.
I don't have the book on hand, but I think that was Lorth Needa, not Pelly.
Whoops... My bad. I read the book some years ago, and got confused. Thanks for pointing out.
Well duh, the US Armed Forces have around ~2.9 million troops with only 1% of the population. The entire Republic would only have 150 million human citizens if it takes 2% of the population to equal the clones.
What if you decided to define "population" as meaning military personnel (not just Republic Military but also the various defense forces)? I don't know if you could stretch the quote that far though. But if you did wouldn't that give you elite soldiers? Possibly Special Forces-grade? I doubt Special Forces even makes 2% of military personnel in today's military.
That would still require only three million total soldiers spread across tens of millions of planetary defense forces, if we assume only 'member' planets like Alderaan, Naboo, and Corellia (IE the capitals of sectors). The Republic has something on the order of ~70 million member planets, you could get that with only four people in each PDF.
