Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

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Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

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LINK
Nun at St. Joseph's Hospital rebuked over abortion to save woman

by Michael Clancy - May. 15, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
A Catholic nun and longtime administrator of St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix was reassigned in the wake of a decision to allow a pregnancy to be ended in order to save the life of a critically ill patient.

The decision also drew a sharp rebuke from Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, head of the Phoenix Diocese, who indicated the woman was "automatically excommunicated" because of the action.


Neither the hospital nor the bishop's office would address whether the bishop had a direct role in her demotion. He does not have control of the hospital as a business but is the voice of moral authority over any Catholic institution operating in the diocese.

The actions involving the administrator, mostly taken within the past couple of weeks, followed a last-minute, life-or-death drama in late 2009. The patient had a rare and often fatal condition in which a pregnancy can cause the death of the mother.

Sister Margaret McBride, who had been vice president of mission integration at the hospital, was on call as a member of the hospital's ethics committee when the surgery took place, hospital officials said. She was part of a group of people, including the patient and doctors, who decided upon the course of action.

The patient was not identified, and details of her case cannot be revealed under federal privacy laws.

The Catholic Church forbids abortion in all circumstances and allows the termination of a pregnancy only as a secondary effect of other treatments, such as radiation of a cancerous uterus.

The hospital defended the ethics committee's decision.

In a statement, Suzanne Pfister, a hospital vice president, said that the facility adheres to the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services but that the directives do not answer all questions.

"In this tragic case, the treatment necessary to save the mother's life required the termination of an 11-week pregnancy," Pfister said.

Pfister issued the four-paragraph statement on behalf of the hospital, its parent company Catholic Healthcare West, and the Sisters of Mercy, McBride's religious order.

McBride was part of the discussion about the surgery, described as urgent. It involved a serious illness, pulmonary hypertension. The condition limits the ability of the heart and lungs to function and is made worse, possibly even fatal, by pregnancy.

In a statement issued to The Republic late Friday, the diocese confirmed that Olmsted learned of the case after the surgery.

"I am gravely concerned by the fact that an abortion was performed several months ago in a Catholic hospital in this diocese," Olmsted said. "I am further concerned by the hospital's statement that the termination of a human life was necessary to treat the mother's underlying medical condition.

"An unborn child is not a disease. While medical professionals should certainly try to save a pregnant mother's life, the means by which they do it can never be by directly killing her unborn child. The end does not justify the means."

Olmsted added that if a Catholic "formally cooperates" in an abortion, he or she is automatically excommunicated.

Excommunication forbids the person from participating in church life. Remedies are available through an appeal to the Vatican or confession.

"The Catholic Church will continue to defend life and proclaim the evil of abortion without compromise, and must act to correct even her own members if they fail in this duty," the bishop said.

It is unknown whether the bishop took action against the others who were involved in the matter, and Pfister would not answer questions about the physicians involved in the surgery.

Neither Olmsted nor his spokesman at the Phoenix Diocese would answer additional questions.

Although Olmsted does not have direct control of the hospital, his authority as bishop over Catholic institutions is substantial. For one thing, religious orders work in the Valley at his invitation.

In an e-mail, Pfister said McBride has been transferred "to another position in the hospital to focus on a number of new strategic initiatives."

According to the medical directives that the hospital follows, abortion is defined as the directly intended termination of pregnancy, and it is not permitted under any circumstances - even to save the life of the mother.

On the other hand, a second directive says that "operations, treatments and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted . . . even if they will result in the death of the unborn child."

A letter sent Monday from Catholic Healthcare West, signed by Sister Judith Carle, board chairwoman, and President and CEO Lloyd Dean, asks Olmsted to provide further clarification about the directives. Agreeing that in a healthy mother, pregnancy is "not a pathology," it says this case was different. The pregnancy, the letter says, carried a nearly certain risk of death for the mother.

"If there had been a way to save the pregnancy and still prevent the death of the mother, we would have done it," the letter says. "We are convinced there was not."

James J. Walter, professor of bioethics at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, a Catholic university, said that is a tough argument to make. He said a pregnancy may be terminated only in limited, indirect circumstances, such as uterine cancer, in which the cancer treatment takes the life of the fetus.

Catholic teaching, he said, is that a pregnancy cannot be terminated as a means to an end of saving the life of a mother who is suffering from a different condition.

Asked if the church position prefers the mother and child to die, rather than sparing the life of one of them, Walters said the hope is that both would survive.

Not all faith groups see things the same way. The Jewish tradition, the Mormon Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America are among the groups that frown on abortion on demand but permit it when the life of the mother is at stake or if the mother is impregnated by rape or incest.

McBride declined to be interviewed. She was the highest-ranking member of the Sisters of Mercy at the hospital, which the order founded in 1895.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... z0oQOQ1A00
Just to recap, The highest and eldest ranked Nun of this hospital saved the life of a Women by aborting her 11-week, barely 3-month, old fetus. There was no way this fetus would have lived, if it wasnt aborted the Mother would have died... If she died, the fetus would have died anyway.
So she saves the life of this women, and is excommunicated.

And for those that aren't Catholic and don't know the significance... For die hard Catholics, being excommunicated isn't just being kicked out of the church, its effectively "banning" you from heaven. You can't take the Catholic sacraments anymore and thus you can NOT do what is needed to get to heaven. Being excommunicated is basically the same as being sentenced to Hell for Diehard Catholics.

For those unbelieving of such asshole-ishness... Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted of Phoenix has a history of this.. When he became Bishop several years back, one of the first things he did was condemn Homosexuals and state in no uncertain terms that Any Gay priests would be immediately 'fired' from the church. Now that doesn't seem that bad as far as Bishops go, no, what was telling is that after that, close to 50 Phoenix Priests, some gay, most not, signed a letter of solidarity for gay priests. Fifty of the,

Within a week all fifty were either Fired or "stepped down"
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Seggybop »

If you actually believe in the whole Catholic backstory, it's not inconsistent to believe it's better for both the mother and her spawn to die together; after all, they're heading for eternal happiness in heaven, whereas executing an abortion would end up sending a number of people to hell.

We (heathen scum) know that their cosmology is quite nonsensical, but looking at it from the perspective of a true adherent, not only did the nun sin by approving the abortion, but she also indicated a lack of faith in God for not allowing for His will to be done. Excommunication, then, seems entirely rational within this deluded framework.

Of course, in our reality what the nun did was the right thing, but that's not actually related to her subsequent excommunication.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

Abortion isn't a penalty in the Catholic Church, as the original post suggests. It is merely a proclamation of a condition brought about by one's own actions. As such, the bishop has merely declared that the woman has separated herself from the Catholic Church by her own actions. It is not a state that is necessarily permanent - excommunications can be lifted.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by sketerpot »

Meanwhile, if you try to get priests excommunicated for child abuse, you can expect the Church to drag its feet every step of the way.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Kuroji »

This is absolutely ridiculous. Sure, they can say that their hope is that they would both survive, but when it's a certainty that they will not, it is utterly irresponsible not to take every step to protect the mother's health.

Maybe this will open some peoples' eyes to the stupidity that the Catholic church promotes in many cases. This is more than just a hair past being quaint and forbidding birth control, this is condemning the mother to death.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by General Mung Beans »

Aren't there probably thousands of Catholic abortionists in America and the world-I don't think the Church has excommunicated all of them?
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Kuroji »

Sure there are, but this was a nun and it got into the media, so of course the bishop pronounced her automatically excommunicated. Though I may be mistaken; there are supposedly some sins that excommunicate you automatically when they're committed. Abortion may be one of them. I'm not sure, I really haven't brushed up on this stuff since I went to a private school, and it was generally not a thing they talked about. It was among the things that caused them to almost immediately change the subject.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Gramzamber »

And once again the Catholic church reaffirms that the life of a woman has absolutely no value to them other than as a baby-making machine and their stance has really nothing to do with the life of a fetus at all.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Siege »

This was an excommunication latae sententiae, i.e. automatic, as opposed to ferendae sententiae, which would be an excommunication declared by an ecclesiastical court. Being excommunicated does not mean one is resigned to hell--the Catholic Church has ceased making definite proclamations on who goes to heaven or not some time ago--but it does mean one's communion with Christ is considered "gravely impaired".

As a poster above noted earlier excommunication is also not a punishment, it's a state of being separated from the Church brought about by one's own actions. An excommunication is normally resolved by a statement of repentence or a renewal of obedience to Church doctrine. The reconciliation can usually be done by a priest of bishop empowered to do this; you receive the sacrament of Reconciliation during your confessional and that is that. Usually in case of abortion the bishop would be the one to have to offer Reconciliation.

So yeah, this is a pretty major asshole move on the part of the bishop but not the kind of 'doomed forever' deal that some people might think it is.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Flagg »

The worst part is that for anything other than reproductive services Catholic Hospitals are the best around. They're the ones I go to when I'm having issues (though because they are closest rather than by choice, necessarily).

Now for the funny: Maybe the Bishop is pissed that his future rapestock was taken away.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

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Siege wrote: As a poster above noted earlier excommunication is also not a punishment, it's a state of being separated from the Church brought about by one's own actions. An excommunication is normally resolved by a statement of repentence or a renewal of obedience to Church doctrine. The reconciliation can usually be done by a priest of bishop empowered to do this; you receive the sacrament of Reconciliation during your confessional and that is that. Usually in case of abortion the bishop would be the one to have to offer Reconciliation.
It may technically not be a punishment, but unless the church oficially recognizes your excommunication, nothing changes in practice.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

It may be best to check the sources to determine exactly what excommunication constitutes. The following three quotes are the sole occurrences of the word excommunication in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. (There is an occurrence of the word 'excommunicate' elsewhere, but it references the excommunication of Jesus and his followers by the Pharisees, so I've left that out.)

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4.VIII wrote:1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them.68 In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69
Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 5.I wrote:2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
"A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
Part 3, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 5 In Brief wrote:2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 # 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. the Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

From the above, it is evident that an orthodox Catholic believer ought to believe that participating in an abortion hampers his or her reception of the sacraments and places her in a grave state of sin. He or she might deceive the Church by continueing to receive the sacraments - but according to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, such a deception is quite likely even more harmful to the individual's chances of salvation. From the perspective of an atheist, "nothing changes in practice", as the above poster said - but from the perspective of an orthodox Catholic, everything changes: one's chances of salvation are impaired.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by PeZook »

Dude, they even keep referring to it as a penalty, and have regulations concerning when it is imposed and for what, etc.

You could probably say that it's not the church per se that imposes the penalty, that it simply says when they think God does, but it's still a punishment - It was certainly used as such historically. A typical catholic might not even know what actions, precisely, merit excommunication: they need the Church to tell them that. The nun probably believed she was doing the right thing, so it's not like an "orthodox" Christian (how much more orthodox than a nun can you possibly get?) will necessarily know it, either.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

I've taken the liberty of reading up on the Code of Canon Law with reference to excommunication and found some additional interesting remarks on the subject.
1, 0, 171 wrote:Can. 316 §1. A person who has publicly rejected the Catholic faith, has defected from ecclesiastical communion, or has been punished by an imposed or declared excommunication cannot be received validly into public associations.
§2. Those enrolled legitimately who fall into the situation mentioned in §1, after being warned, are to be dismissed from the association, with due regard for its statutes and without prejudice to the right of recourse to the ecclesiastical authority mentioned in ⇒ can. 312, §1.
6, 1, 1330 wrote:Can. 1331 §1. An excommunicated person is forbidden:
1/ to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever;
2/ to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals and to receive the sacraments;
3/ to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.
§2. If the excommunication has been imposed or declared, the offender:
1/ who wishes to act against the prescript of §1, n. 1 must be prevented from doing so, or the liturgical action must be stopped unless a grave cause precludes this;
2/ invalidly places acts of governance which are illicit according to the norm of §1, n. 3;
3/ is forbidden to benefit from privileges previously granted;
4/ cannot acquire validly a dignity, office, or other function in the Church;
5/ does not appropriate the benefits of a dignity, office, any function, or pension, which the offender has in the Church.
Can. 1332 The prohibitions mentioned in ⇒ can. 1331, §1, nn. 1 and 2 bind an interdicted person. If the interdict has been imposed or declared, however, the prescript of ⇒ can. 1331, §2, n. 1 must be observed.
6, 1, 1356 wrote: Can. 1357 §1. Without prejudice to the prescripts of cann. 508 and 976, a confessor can remit in the internal sacramental forum an undeclared latae sententiae censure of excommunication or interdict if it is burdensome for the penitent to remain in the state of grave sin during the time necessary for the competent superior to make provision.
§2. In granting the remission, the confessor is to impose on the penitent, under the penalty of reincidence, the obligation of making recourse within a month to the competent superior or to a priest endowed with the faculty and the obligation of obeying his mandates; in the meantime he is to impose a suitable penance and, insofar as it is demanded, reparation of any scandal and damage; however, recourse can also be made through the confessor, without mention of the name.


Now, as you'll note if you read my posts, you'll find that I haven't denied that excommunication or the proclamation thereof is a punishment. However, Catholic doctrine is quite clear on the matter that to partake in an abortion is to incur latae sententiae excommunication. The bishop mentioned in the original article merely repeated Catholic law – he did not excommunicate the woman himself. To be outraged at this declaration of excommunication is to be outraged simply for the hell of it: this law has existed for a very long time. Oppose the law, not its application.

I don't expect all Catholic believers to be aware of canon law, but if you believe that this nun was unaware that partaking in an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication, you must be aware that this is very, very unlikely. Abortion is a fairly central issue in contemporary Catholic doctrine, and this nun worked in a hospital. If she was not aware of the consequences of partaking in an abortion, her education would have been extremely deficient. Furthermore, U.S. Catholic nuns are not regarded as very orthodox believers by the Church. Their humanitarian work has regularly put them at odds with the hierarchy, and they are regularly accused of unorthodoxy. (In fact, it is precisely their beliefs that they are "doing the right thing", when that is opposed to Catholic dogma, which caused this situation.)
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Gramzamber »

So what, someone is exempt from being an asshole because they follow the letter of a bullshit law?
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

It's possible that the man is an asshole - I wouldn't know - , but in this matter, he merely followed both the letter and the spirit of canonic law. As I said, one should oppose the law rather than an individual application of it.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Eleas »

Zed wrote:It's possible that the man is an asshole - I wouldn't know - , but in this matter, he merely followed both the letter and the spirit of canonic law. As I said, one should oppose the law rather than an individual application of it.
One should oppose both. Picking one is not a necessary requirement, and I for one don't see a reason to do so.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Gramzamber »

If I believed in a loving God, I would not accept that God would allow a faithful follower to be excommunicated for saving a woman's life.
Even if I believed abortion was wrong, here it was a clear case of either the fetus is aborted or both die. The law speaks of preservation of life. To the point that you let the mother die?

Anyway the point is even if the law absolutely requires auto-excommunication, the law also seems to allow for an appeal to the Pope. So why not do that?
Instead this guy condemns her and announces excommunication. That is asshole behaviour and I will condemn him for it.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

It doesn't allow for an appeal to the Pope - it allows for absolution by the Pope, as well as by the bishop himself and, in certain circumstances, priests. Absolution can only be granted if one acknowledges one has sinned and feels genuinely guilty.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Flagg »

Zed wrote:<snip stupid worldwide child rape ring dogma>

Legalism will get you nowhere my dear. The fact is that they make the rules, and they can ignore them. This Bishop (known to be a cunt) decided he would continue his tradition of cuntitude and excommunicate a woman who has (for some fucked up reason I'll never fathom) dedicated her life to helping people through this orginization for saving a womans life. It's like getting kicked out of Scouts for doing mouth-mouth on a drown victim.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

Bishops are expected to abide by canon law, much like U.S. governors are expected to abide by federal law. A bishop ignoring the law of the Church would be tantamount to a governor ignoring the law of the United States. Would you support a governor doing that?
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Flagg »

Zed wrote:Bishops are expected to abide by canon law, much like U.S. governors are expected to abide by federal law. A bishop ignoring the law of the Church would be tantamount to a governor ignoring the law of the United States. Would you support a governor doing that?
Governors do that all the time. It's federal law that marijuana be illegal period, yet certain states have legalized its medicinal use. That's called a governor ignoring federal law.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Zed wrote:Bishops are expected to abide by canon law, much like U.S. governors are expected to abide by federal law. A bishop ignoring the law of the Church would be tantamount to a governor ignoring the law of the United States. Would you support a governor doing that?
So in other words, No thinking for yourself, only slavishly following orders? Right gotcha.. Glad to have that reinforced.
Shame that sort of military obedience isn't applied to Priests when they rape little boys.
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Zed »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
Zed wrote:Bishops are expected to abide by canon law, much like U.S. governors are expected to abide by federal law. A bishop ignoring the law of the Church would be tantamount to a governor ignoring the law of the United States. Would you support a governor doing that?
So in other words, No thinking for yourself, only slavishly following orders? Right gotcha.. Glad to have that reinforced.
Shame that sort of military obedience isn't applied to Priests when they rape little boys.
Following the legal process isn't the same as not thinking for yourself - one can attempt to change the law of the Church without ignoring it altogether. Alternatively, one can choose not to be a member of the Catholic Church.

Secondly, it's getting rather tiresome to hear the abuse scandal invoked in every Catholic discussion. We know. The Church covered up massive amounts of child abuse. This was horrendous and shameful. It needn't be mentioned in every discussion about Catholicism.
Flagg wrote:
Zed wrote:Bishops are expected to abide by canon law, much like U.S. governors are expected to abide by federal law. A bishop ignoring the law of the Church would be tantamount to a governor ignoring the law of the United States. Would you support a governor doing that?
Governors do that all the time. It's federal law that marijuana be illegal period, yet certain states have legalized its medicinal use. That's called a governor ignoring federal law.
Why aren't they prosecuted?
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Gil Hamilton
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Re: Phx nun saves women's life, excommunicated from church.

Post by Gil Hamilton »

I wonder what Catholic law says denying life saving medical treatment.

This is asinine, even if you follow Catholic doctrine. Do they teach logic in seminary?

Scenario #1: The woman is given life saving treatment, resulting in the destruction of the fetus. If you take the fetus to be a human being, then there is one death, but one saved.
Scenario #2: The woman is denied life saving treatment and perishes. The fetus at three months is no where near able to survive outside of her uterus and perishes as well. If you take the fetus to be a human being, then there are two deaths.

Even if you take the fetus to be a living human being with the same rights as the mother, Scenario #1 is STILL preferable. Doctors do it all the time, you save the person who is most likely to survive first. That nun didn't support abortion, she supported triage and the church still kicked her out.
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