The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Gil Hamilton]

If it weren't for the landing gear being engaged, it'd had been a very good picture. It's good, and I like it clean and simple. As for where you took it...I'll say an air show.

Yeah, not much I could do from where I was sitting, because all the planes passing over would have had their landing gear engaged. But, no, it wasn't an airshow. That photo was actually taken on a sunny Pacific coast afternoon on Coronado beach, just south of the Naval Air Station on North Island, near San Diego. I heard a good bit of rumbling and looked up and RIGHT overhead one of those guys was on approach to land. The one I caught on CCD was the plane behind the first.

[Jusu]

Ah, I assumed it was an airshow >.>;;

Then again, the closest bases to where I live would be Quantico and Belvoir. Not much air activity that can be easily seen besides the once-in-a-blue-moon Blackhawks.

Edit: As for the 'simple' comment. I dunno, that image, landing gear or not, is quite powerful, just, unable to describe how I feel about it.

[Gil Hamilton]

I see plenty of airplanes around here in Tucson, with Davis-Montham being right near by. If you go out on the University of Arizona campus and wait a bit, chances are you'll see some A-10 Warthogs from the 355th snorting angrily overhead. I've got some photos of them coming over the palm trees and campus buildings, but those aren't really Hell Appropriate.

[xthetenth]

If it weren't for the landing gear being engaged, it'd had been a very good picture. It's good, and I like it clean and simple. As for where you took it...I'll say an air show.

Yeah, not much I could do from where I was sitting, because all the planes passing over would have had their landing gear engaged. But, no, it wasn't an airshow. That photo was actually taken on a sunny Pacific coast afternoon on Coronado beach, just south of the Naval Air Station on North Island, near San Diego. I heard a good bit of rumbling and looked up and RIGHT overhead one of those guys was on approach to land. The one I caught on CCD was the plane behind the first.

Want a copy if I can snag a photo of a C-130 convoy coming out of Bragg? They occasionally come over my head at home.

[Jusu]

I see plenty of airplanes around here in Tucson, with Davis-Montham being right near by. If you go out on the University of Arizona campus and wait a bit, chances are you'll see some A-10 Warthogs from the 355th snorting angrily overhead. I've got some photos of them coming over the palm trees and campus buildings, but those aren't really Hell Appropriate.

In my eyes, the Warthogs are a much more...eh...Hell-appropriate picture. That's just me though. Although if you find one of those stock images of an Abrams or any Tank jumping over a low rise and infernalizing its surroundings, it could be the back cover or something. Jes a suggestion.

[Gil Hamilton]

In my eyes, the Warthogs are a much more...eh...Hell-appropriate picture. That's just me though. Although if you find one of those stock images of an Abrams or any Tank jumping over a low rise and infernalizing its surroundings, it could be the back cover or something. Jes a suggestion.

Oh, the Warthogs certainly are, I just can't seem to capture a picture of them that doesn't have palm trees or school buildings in it.

[Jusu]

In my eyes, the Warthogs are a much more...eh...Hell-appropriate picture. That's just me though. Although if you find one of those stock images of an Abrams or any Tank jumping over a low rise and infernalizing its surroundings, it could be the back cover or something. Jes a suggestion.

Oh, the Warthogs certainly are, I just can't seem to capture a picture of them that doesn't have palm trees or school buildings in it.

Hmm, someone could edit those stuff out. That'd make for an awesome cover.

[bcoogler]

Something like this?

[Edward Yee]

I was thinking he would use a L-pill and make himself into a martyr

I meant that "Michael-lan dying" would be antithetical to the whole point of all this... namely, coming out "alive and in charge."

[Night_stalker]

Hey, you never know with him.

[Edward Yee]

Hey, you never know with him.

Wouldn't be much point to him to keep the angelic race alive if he's not there to "enjoy it," no?

[Erra]

Anti-Heroes do not martyr themselves, at least not on purpose. Totally doesn't fit the character. Michael definitely fits under Type IV of the Sliding Scale of Anti Heroes http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... AntiHeroes

[Jusu]

Something like this?

That's pretty nice. The image I had in my mind was also from that one scene in the first Transformers live action after the A-10s do their run and start to break off.

[Saint_007]

Some questions that are bothering me, and none of them to do with combat (yes, strange I know, considering how I've been clamoring for some nuclear firepower recently). Stuart mentioned that the Angelic control of Heaven was slipping, and that the human fighter craft were striking at targets throughout Heaven and pulling out before their presence is known, much less responded to. My question is, how are the populace of Heaven taking the fact that there's now a lot more bombings (though this time at military targets rather than civilians) and how are the more savvy of them taking the fact that it's clearly the humans' grey birds doing that? Are they getting used to it, like the Daemons of Dis (like the unfortunate baldrick lady who we saw get ambushed and killed by Orcs in the late Chapters of Armageddon???)? Or are they trying to put a brave face on it?

Second of all, how are the Angels and 2nd Life humans in Heaven reacting to their current situation? They're trapped between the anvil of a paranoid police state that's gone haywire recently, with some subtle signs of corruption spreading through the system, and the hammer of an angry Human invasion. Any savvy modern human, with a decent knowledge of history, would be shitting his pants in this situation; the last few times a country was beset from dangers within and without eating away at it (Rome in its last years, Imperial China in the 19th century, Nazi Germany in 1945, Idi Amin's regime collapsing, and even the Baldricks towards the final stages of the Curbstomp War) resulted in the total collapse of the infrastructure, usually resulting in a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions. Germany was spared the worst because the Allies were more interested in putting things behind them and rebuilding rather than petty vengeance (East Germany may have had it worse off, though), and the Daemons were lucky the humans had foresight to rebuild rather than just hand the keys to the (very vengeful) undead humans and move on. So what are the Angels and Heaven humans doing about their own situation?

My guess is, they're not educated enough nor willing enough to see the signs. A 20th century man would, because he's read the history books and reads the papers, and thus has *some* idea of what's going to happen. Some, like Azrael and the higher-ups have some idea of how the humans will fight back, but are still way off on their estimates (for instance, Azrael, in a crowning moment of stupidity, was aware of what his spy, Lt. Yitzhak, was capable of doing, yet with the presence of nuclear weapons, he still underestimated the humans (read the part where NYC gets bombed and you'll see what I mean) almost fatally. Most of the Host will be woefully unprepared for the slaughter the humans will bring with them; you don't prepare for artillery barrages and supersonic air strikes with sword training. To most of them, it's an aberration; the 1st Life humans are either weak heretics or simpering servants who are no match for the Host. Those truly aware of the situation are firmly in Micheal's group, and thus won't be fighting against the humans; still it would be fun to see their reactions.

Finally, a question about the concentration camp guards: as I understand it, while a lot of them got themselves killed taking on tanks with sonic screams and running up against machine guns with swords, the humans were rather restrained, meaning they weren't out to line the guards up against a wall and empty a Gatling into them the way the Allies did at Auschwitz. My question is: whatever happened to the guard, how are they being restrained, and how do they feel about being prisoners of the humans? For their part, the humans must be pretty disgusted with what they did and thus hold little sympathy, even if they are obliged to avoid summary executions.

Angel Ex-Guard: "But, the Noble One Above All in His Infinite Wisdom told us to do it!!"

HEA Warden: "Save it for the war crimes court, asshole. The Nazis tried that line and it didn't help them."

[Edward Yee]

Depends on whether the HEA is taking into consideration that it's lower-ranked (and thus in their own way oppressed) angels suddenly being given power over their higher-ranked former superiors; the human restraint (at least with the US Army component) is by standing order.

[GrayAnderson]

Depends on whether the HEA is taking into consideration that it's lower-ranked (and thus in their own way oppressed) angels suddenly being given power over their higher-ranked former superiors; the human restraint (at least with the US Army component) is by standing order.

There's an old story from the British House of Commons that there had been some Brits killed in Egypt. There was tangible outrage about this, and one of the leading MPs at the time remarked that "Our side in the Commons is very jingo about Egypt. They badly want to kill somebody. They don't know who."

I very strongly suspect that there is a similar attitude on the angels in heaven. Frankly, we are probably not too worried about the angel-on-angel violence, particularly considering the deal of trouble they gave us, and if the guys in the camp are mostly pretty far up the ladder then we're not going to be too sympathetic. That said, I think our command staff are smart enough to recognize the value of giving the existing regime a hard swat on the head.

All of this funnels into the fact that I think a couple of angels (probably any of Belial's immediate subordinates) will be getting shot over this for two reasons: First, there is going to be a certain amount of bloodlust on the human side, to say nothing of the second lifers. Frankly, I pity any angels that fall into the hands of second lifers who were retrieved from the pit; my suspicion is that mature conduct will not be the order of the day on their part, and that such conduct will instead be replaced with some rather unpleasant incidents occurring off camera and offering the story some unpleasant "after" scenes. Do remember that at least some of these will be soldiers retrained from times when the Geneva Conventions didn't exist. I would also offer that in at least some cases, who the responsible party is will be less than certain, and I can't quite see this being a priority matter for most of our authorities. Second, we need to be seen as cracking down on certain elements of the former regime (albeit without going overboard); Belial would be a good target for this, as would some of the other angels, but much as with the MP mentioned above, "who" is not so important so long as it is "someone"...but not enough "someones" to trigger a suicidal defense by everyone on the angelic side.

[Saint_007]

Under that definition, then Azrael quickly becomes a prime target for the HEA: shoot on sight, or preferably tied and bound and awaiting trial. Why? Because the HEA identified Azrael as Lt. Yitzhak's contact/paymaster, which makes him complicit in the destruction of Tel Aviv and the attempted missile launches against the 4 Arab capitals - one count of complicity in genocide, four counts of complicity in attempted genocide.

Then there was the genius of Michael-Lan fingering Azrael as the one to carry out the Seventh Bowl of Wrath. Had Michael done it himself, he would have had to own up to it, and I doubt even the mantra of "Yahweh ordered me to do it" would have cut the mustard: the HEA would have a hard time swallowing the fact that he'd have to be set free to help them with maintaining order in Heaven. A lot of people would be clamoring for his head since he killed so many civilians. Fort Bragg doesn't count (regardless of the mole's complicity in that) since it's a military research facility, and even by our standards that made collateral damage trying to destroy it fair game. Admittedly, modern units would try to reduce collateral damage, but you had to admit; Bragg was a big threat to Heaven. But since Michael tried to destroy Bragg but not Tel Aviv or New York, it makes him guilty of targeting legitimate military centers, and he'd get a slap on the wrist. Azrael, OTOH, is going to swing pretty badly; the attack on New York was (officially) his work (Michael made sure of that), so we get another count of terror bombing and mass murder to his war crimes list.

So if the HEA was to make a card set for "Wanted for Justice" the way they did in Iraq, Azrael would make it pretty high on the list.

Good thing Uriel's dead (well, good thing for Uriel anyways). They'd have him on several dozen genocide and attempted genocide counts. The part I liked best about it was how he died like a simpering coward.

[Simon_Jester]

What, getting sliced to pieces trying to escape an overwhelming enemy force?

I wouldn't say he had an unusually cowardly death; that would feel like bravado to me.

[Night_stalker]

Well, I think that we are going to have some...interesting war crimes trials after we take heaven. I just know their defence is "Yahweh made me do it", and how it will convince no one of their innocence.

[Simon_Jester]

Which still bugs me; it's as good as 'the devil made me do it,' and we accepted that excuse for pretty much every senior demon in Hell whose surrender we took.

It seems inconsistent, somehow, for us to be executing people who followed orders to kill us for war crimes while not executing people who followed orders to kill us and tortured most of humanity nonstop for thousands of years for giggles.

[MondoMage]

It seems inconsistent, somehow, for us to be executing people who followed orders to kill us for war crimes while not executing people who followed orders to kill us and tortured most of humanity nonstop for thousands of years for giggles.

Not really. The root of the issue is the fact that Heaven - and Yahweh in particular - totally misrepresented their position in things. With the demons, there was never any doubt where you stood with them. Hell is... well, hell. Everyone knew that, and the demons pretty much went along and stayed true to that.

Heaven, on the other hand, turned out to be a bait and switch, especially after the middle ages or whenever the Gates closed. Do as God commands, follow the teachings of the Bible (or Koran, or Talmud, or whatever), and you're guaranteed a place in Heaven. But as it turns out, no matter what you did you were destined for Hell. Perhaps a particularly interesting part of Hell if you were a particularly nasty sort, but even the faithful wound up getting the shaft.

There's the rub - it's not that the denizens of Hell got off light, it's that they were honest about it. The dudes in Heaven - Yahweh in particular - deceived mankind about the state of things, and the whole "Message" debacle turned out to be a horrid decision.

Hmmmm.... that last bit has got me wondering. Why did Yahweh decide to announce the Message now, of all times? Did he come up with the idea on his own? Or did someone convince him it was a good idea?

[GrayAnderson]

Azrael, OTOH, is going to swing pretty badly

You raise an interesting question with that statement, albeit unintended: Considering their regenerative powers, how would we have to go about killing "responsible parties" without expending a ridiculous amount of ammo? Obviously, a normal firing squad would be a joke given their regenerative abilities (let's face it, you've got to deliver a major shock to their system).

Containment is also an issue if most of these guys can portal out of a jail given time...which pretty much rules out lengthy jail sentences unless you can tag them in some way to make tracking easier.

[Edward Yee]

Well, I think that we are going to have some...interesting war crimes trials after we take heaven. I just know their defence is "Yahweh made me do it", and how it will convince no one of their innocence.

What'll be interesting to see is if they can understand WHY it's not considered a valid defense by humanity...

On the other hand, I can see several HEA commanders being all too happy to accept said defense...

[Simon_Jester]

Not really. The root of the issue is the fact that Heaven - and Yahweh in particular - totally misrepresented their position in things. With the demons, there was never any doubt where you stood with them. Hell is... well, hell. Everyone knew that, and the demons pretty much went along and stayed true to that.

You can say that, but since when is lying a bigger war crime than torturing people for millenia? I mean, declare war yes, oust Yahweh yes, take over the afterlife system and do it properly, with no second lifers having to scream in pits of fire or be slaves.

But if we're going to do a systematic de-archangelification of Heaven, we should damn sure have done the same thing in Hell. Dagon and Euryale deserve to face firing squads at least as much as, say, Lemuel, if you look at what they actually did.

You raise an interesting question with that statement, albeit unintended: Considering their regenerative powers, how would we have to go about killing "responsible parties" without expending a ridiculous amount of ammo? Obviously, a normal firing squad would be a joke given their regenerative abilities (let's face it, you've got to deliver a major shock to their system).

So use a firing squad armed with AT-4s.

[RowanE]

Not really. The root of the issue is the fact that Heaven - and Yahweh in particular - totally misrepresented their position in things. With the demons, there was never any doubt where you stood with them. Hell is... well, hell. Everyone knew that, and the demons pretty much went along and stayed true to that.

You can say that, but since when is lying a bigger war crime than torturing people for millenia? I mean, declare war yes, oust Yahweh yes, take over the afterlife system and do it properly, with no second lifers having to scream in pits of fire or be slaves.

But if we're going to do a systematic de-archangelification of Heaven, we should damn sure have done the same thing in Hell. Dagon and Euryale deserve to face firing squads at least as much as, say, Lemuel, if you look at what they actually did.

I think the reason they'd try the angels from the concentration camp, and not the demons, is because in heaven it's only a tiny fraction who were involved in the torture and related war crimes. In hell, it was pretty much the entire population, which would mean a war of extermination, which means;
a)you'd run out of ammo, fuel, etc.
b)the common demons would be against you too, leading to an unwinnable guerrilla warfare campaign over a mostly-uninhabited landmass larger than all the land on earth, giving the demons more than enough time (they are, after all,of human-level intelligence) to adapt, develop technology, and even bring the fight back to earth
c) even if you did somehow win this campaign, you just killed an entire species. Genocide is, i think, above torture as a war crime, so you're as bad as they are.

Whilst in heaven, you've got about several hundred (i think... no idea how big the camp actually is, don't think it's been said) angels tat you can make an example of, or whatever you need to execute them for.

That's just a practical difference though, i don't think they should. Should probably take precedent from hell, and just pardon them. They're not going to do any more harm, are they?