The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[ANTIcarrot]

Well, I think that we are going to have some...interesting war crimes trials after we take heaven. I just know their defence is "Yahweh made me do it", and how it will convince no one of their innocence.

What'll be interesting to see is if they can understand WHY it's not considered a valid defense by humanity...
On the other hand, I can see several HEA commanders being all too happy to accept said defense...

It's not considdered a good defense for a human because humans are expected to know better. But is it reasonable to expect angels to know better? Is it even reasonable to expect angels to understand what they were doing at the time? They're ignorant about the moden world. Their conceptions of a human city are probably very different from New York. Do they know what a kenetic impactor is, or what a 400ton explosion looks like? How many angels presume too much of their regenerative abilities, and don't even understand that crippling can be permanant? (Do any know with absolute certainty that with amputation it's not?) A case could be made that many of the angels were simply soldiers 'pushing buttons', and that they truely didn't understand what they were doing.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the reason they'd try the angels from the concentration camp, and not the demons, is because in heaven it's only a tiny fraction who were involved in the torture and related war crimes. In hell, it was pretty much the entire population, which would mean a war of extermination, which means;
a)you'd run out of ammo, fuel, etc.

I was thinking more in terms of the senior angels involved in prosecuting the war.

You can target the angelic camp guards because, as you say, they're a small minority. If you try to target every high level angel as complicit in Yahweh's crimes... that raises questions about why you didn't do the same thing in Hell, where the demon lords were very much complicit in Satan's crimes. And, for that matter, Yahweh's most serious crime is being complicit in Satan's crimes, by letting him get away with it.

[Ruadhan2300]

the fact remains that whatever the HEA does here, they -didn't- prosecute the demons beyond the point of Crushing Defeat.
so whatever they do in heaven, double standards are likely to be an issue. as has been pointed out, dishonesty is hardly worse than merciless torture for thousands of years...
in the HEAs position though...one wonders whether having double standards is actually something they'll care about...
we sympathised with the demons once we ripped the crap out of them and crushed them utterly.
we'll likely be about equally sympathetic to the general Angelic population. but yahweh is going to -burn-, probably worse than Satan did. I would expect that in general the upper echelons will survive, but certain individuals are going to go for war crimes. some may even die


as an extra note...someone (Edit: Gray Anderson) mentioned that it'd be hard to contain angel prisoners when they can just portal out....
is it feasible to portal out of a faraday cage? given that most of the psychic phenomena failed with tin-foil...

[JBG]

I think the reason they'd try the angels from the concentration camp, and not the demons, is because in heaven it's only a tiny fraction who were involved in the torture and related war crimes. In hell, it was pretty much the entire population, which would mean a war of extermination, which means;
a)you'd run out of ammo, fuel, etc.

I was thinking more in terms of the senior angels involved in prosecuting the war.

You can target the angelic camp guards because, as you say, they're a small minority. If you try to target every high level angel as complicit in Yahweh's crimes... that raises questions about why you didn't do the same thing in Hell, where the demon lords were very much complicit in Satan's crimes. And, for that matter, Yahweh's most serious crime is being complicit in Satan's crimes, by letting him get away with it.

Indeed. Mass executions would be unjustifiable, pointless and some might say immoral.

[MondoMage]

Not really. The root of the issue is the fact that Heaven - and Yahweh in particular - totally misrepresented their position in things. With the demons, there was never any doubt where you stood with them. Hell is... well, hell. Everyone knew that, and the demons pretty much went along and stayed true to that.

You can say that, but since when is lying a bigger war crime than torturing people for millenia? I mean, declare war yes, oust Yahweh yes, take over the afterlife system and do it properly, with no second lifers having to scream in pits of fire or be slaves.

Well, I think any half-decent lawyer would be able to prove that the majority of demons *can't* be charged for war crimes. Why? Because for the vast majority of the period where they were getting their jollies torturing humans in the pits, THERE WAS NO WAR. After war was declared, you could level that charge at certain individuals - Belial and his gang, for example, for the volcano attacks. The demons who actually tortured people in the pit - after war was declared. Maybe even the upper-level demons, if you can find incontrovertible proof - and how many of their orders were actually written down or recorded in some way? Hearsay is not generally considered admissible in court - that was one of the issues they had at Nuremberg, a relative lack of records.

The most you might be able to pin on the majority of demons would be crimes against humanity. And can you even charge a non-human with that? And would you be opening up a whole 'nother ball of wax - crimes against demonkind? Crimes against angels? Crimes against non-humanity? And can they argue a religious discrimination angle? "The Devil Made Me Do It" doesn't sound so far-fetched when the Devil actually DID tell you to do it. Wow... that opens up a whole bunch of legal problems for mankind as all those people in prison start arguing that they were possessed when the crimes they were convicted of occurred. How do you prove/disprove that?

And what if they start pointing out all the things humanity has done over the years that might be considered war crimes - or crimes against humanity - that were swept under the rug? What about the Japanese "doctors" that were pardoned after World War 2? Von Braun - he developed the V-1 and -2, after all, and employed a lot of slave labor to do it. Just two examples, but you get the idea.

As for the angels - the vast majority of their attacks against Earth are probably war crimes - indiscriminate attacks that hit civilians as well as military targets. But who do you attribute them to? Yahweh, of course. Maybe a handful of others. That's it. The concentration camp? How many humans are in there? I don't remember any off the top of my head - if there were then you might be able to get the guards on war crimes. If not, then who actually has jurisdiction? If this is purely angel-on-angel action here (now that's a video I can see being made after the war...) then does the HEA have any jurisdiction at all? Are we liberating heaven from the grip of Yahweh, or are we conquering heaven outright? Can you liberate people who are convinced that they've already got it pretty good? That's another difference between the campaigns in Hell and Heaven - in hell, everyone knew it sucked. In Heaven, most individuals are pretty happy with the way things are (except for those who have fallen afoul of either Yahweh himself or Michael's machinations).

Wow... this is a lot longer than I intended it to be. But the jist of it remains - it's not as simple as "Charge 'em all and let the legal system sort 'em out."

[Night_stalker]

Say, di we know if Saints were accepted into heaven, or were they rejected by Yaw-Yaw too?

[Simon_Jester]

as an extra note...someone (Edit: Gray Anderson) mentioned that it'd be hard to contain angel prisoners when they can just portal out....
is it feasible to portal out of a faraday cage? given that most of the psychic phenomena failed with tin-foil...

It... should be, unless the cage is extremely small (such that it is not practical to form the portal because there's tinfoil between you and the formation point).

Well, I think any half-decent lawyer would be able to prove that the majority of demons *can't* be charged for war crimes. Why? Because for the vast majority of the period where they were getting their jollies torturing humans in the pits, THERE WAS NO WAR.

That's what "crimes against humanity" are for...

But I'm not joking, the real issue here is that our standards of what is behavior punishable by death in Heaven should be broadly compatible with our standards for Hell. If Abigor didn't commit a war crime by leading an army of raping murdering demons into Iraq, Michael didn't commit a war crime by tossing some of our own nukes at us. If Random Demon Overseer can't be tried for having been responsible for overseeing the operations of a pit full of tormented souls, Lemuel-lan-Michael can't be tried for being the head of the secret police in Heaven.

Now, specific individuals who did things well beyond the limits of what is normally permissible in war... that's another case. I'm not even sure you can make a good case against Belial, unless you extend the principle and rule that all attacks against strategic targets are against the laws of war. I mean, the author would never in a thousand years write a scene where Curtis LeMay gets hauled out of the Hellpit only to be put on trial for crimes against the people of Japan... but if we can justify the firebombing of Tokyo in retrospect, why can't we justify the volcano attacks on Sheffield and Detroit?

Is there going to be a consistent standard of criminal behavior here, or does it all just boil down to "we won so we're putting the boot in?" I know that it's likely to be the latter, but I'm not sure I can approve.

The most you might be able to pin on the majority of demons would be crimes against humanity. And can you even charge a non-human with that?

Who better?

And can they argue a religious discrimination angle? "The Devil Made Me Do It" doesn't sound so far-fetched when the Devil actually DID tell you to do it.

When the Devil is just a big powerful dude who can be disobeyed in principle, "the Devil made me do it" is just another version of "I was only following orders." It's only when the Devil is a supernatural force of evil and trickery personified that it makes sense to use his power as a justification for crimes.

[Saint_007]

Hmmmm.... that last bit has got me wondering. Why did Yahweh decide to announce the Message now, of all times? Did he come up with the idea on his own? Or did someone convince him it was a good idea?

I think it was mentioned in-story that Yahweh found a new pet project - i.e. a new species to focus on - and he had given up on humanity being obedient little slaves a long time ago.

Of course, had he attacked earlier, he would have had better chances to wipe out humanity. As they mentioned early on, in WW1 the Demons would have stormed through the human armies combined, albeit with heavy losses. In WW2, the humans would have won, but then they'd have to deal with Yahweh. And had Yahweh waited some more for the Message, chances were he'd have a human army tossing antimatter into Heaven two months into the war.

Well, okay, definitely not THAT advanced, but you know how 200 years is nothing to angels and demons, so the Message would have come in something like the 23rd century or something, and I'm betting anything then can wipe out anything we have now. I mean, how long would a Napoleonic Era Army last against a modern US Army division?

[EdBecerra]

Well, okay, definitely not THAT advanced, but you know how 200 years is nothing to angels and demons, so the Message would have come in something like the 23rd century or something, and I'm betting anything then can wipe out anything we have now. I mean, how long would a Napoleonic Era Army last against a modern US Army division?

If they were really lucky, less than a day. If they weren't, and the division had organic support, mere hours.

Remember how fast Iraqi units folded? There were Iraqi regulars trying to surrender to airborne drones.

This from an army that was - for its time - even better armed than the Third Reich. And it went squish when faced with the forces of the Allies.

Ed Becerra

[Saint_007]

IIRC, the Iraqi army was a Russian-style combined-arms army with 1970's-1980's weaponry. Against a US Army with the next generation of smart weaponry, it was fucked sideways. And yes, 1970's T-72s eat King Tigers alive.

Though it didn't help the Iraqis were total morons, tactics-wise. I mean, burying tanks in the sand?! What the hell?

The reason I mentioned a Napoleonic army instead of a more modern one is because I'm illustrating the "200 year" gap in technology.

It's interesting how a question on how the Angels are coping with the invasion of Heaven was turned into a criminal court case. What I wanted to know is how the *Angels being held captive* are dealing with the fact that they're surrounded by armed, angry humans.

Still, the whole argument provides an interesting viewpoint. How does a being whose sole purpose consisted of torturing people because it was his job and it was fun face justice? And do we put *everybody* on trial?

I think it helps that for instance, a lot of "Jew-baiting" cases happened in Nazi Germany prior to WW2. Did a lot of those cases reach trial after the war, for instance?

[Xveers]

IIRC, the Iraqi army was a Russian-style combined-arms army with 1970's-1980's weaponry. Against a US Army with the next generation of smart weaponry, it was fucked sideways. And yes, 1970's T-72s eat King Tigers alive.

Though it didn't help the Iraqis were total morons, tactics-wise. I mean, burying tanks in the sand?! What the hell?

It didn't do the Iraqis any favors that they were manufacturing their tank shells in-house either. Rifle bullets are fairly basic technology after all, they just have to punch through cloth, flesh, and perhaps some steel. Tank rounds need a lot more engineering to stand a chance to do some serious damage to another target, especially one with tough armour.

As for digging their tanks in, it makes some sense. It definitely lowers one's silhouette and puts additional mass between your hull and any incoming fire. Sadly for them, it did little to mitigate damage from the air (nevermind the accuracy of modern western MBTs).

[Ruadhan2300]

my immediate thought was that packing sand around a tank can't be good for the mechanisms....
I know my RC tank has never been the same after I took it to the beach XD

[[R_H]]

As for digging their tanks in, it makes some sense. It definitely lowers one's silhouette and puts additional mass between your hull and any incoming fire. Sadly for them, it did little to mitigate damage from the air (nevermind the accuracy of modern western MBTs).

I heard that the sabots zipped right through the berms the Iraqis were hiding behind. Staying stationary brings the huge disadvantage of losing mobility, and getting out flanked.

my immediate thought was that packing sand around a tank can't be good for the mechanisms....
I know my RC tank has never been the same after I took it to the beach XD

They were behind berms, not buried in the sand (I hope).

[Night_stalker]

Hard to tell, given typical Soviet tank design whihc was "quanity has a quality all its own."

[[R_H]]

Hard to tell, given typical Soviet tank design whihc was "quanity has a quality all its own."

Erm, not quite. And the Iraqi tanks weren't as good as Soviet tanks were.

[Night_stalker]

odd, I thought that the Iraqis bought all their stuff from the Soviets, circa 1970s.

[Edward Yee]

Which would in almost all cases have been export versions.

[Night_stalker]

hence my point, they were POS when they were made, and exported to make easy cash, so if they had to invade the buyer, they wouldn't be too much of a challenge for the regualr Red Army to deal with

[JBG]

Sorry to be a pain Stuart, but what is the current ORBAT of the HEA?

[Ritterin Sophia]

odd, I thought that the Iraqis bought all their stuff from the Soviets, circa 1970s.

They did, the thing is most nations that deal in arms strip out their game changing equipment. For example the US allows General Dynamics to export Abrams tanks, however the exported ones will not have the DU armor that US Army and Marine Corps tanks have.

The best the Iraqis had were knock-down T-72Ms they got from the Polish with laminated armor, some even had laser rangefinders and Belgian thermal optics.

[Night_stalker]

Which was my point exactly.

[Simon_Jester]

As for digging their tanks in, it makes some sense. It definitely lowers one's silhouette and puts additional mass between your hull and any incoming fire. Sadly for them, it did little to mitigate damage from the air (nevermind the accuracy of modern western MBTs).

I heard that the sabots zipped right through the berms the Iraqis were hiding behind. Staying stationary brings the huge disadvantage of losing mobility, and getting out flanked.

It might have worked better against HEAT rounds, maybe. A kinetic penetrator that is designed to crack several inches (or more) of hardened steel will laugh at loose rock dust, which is effectively all steel is. A HEAT round might have detonated in the sand dune, in which case it would have been utterly useless.

[tortieconspiracy]

It might have worked better against HEAT rounds, maybe. A kinetic penetrator that is designed to crack several inches (or more) of hardened steel will laugh at loose rock dust, which is effectively all steel is. A HEAT round might have detonated in the sand dune, in which case it would have been utterly useless.

Umm, I think you mean "sand" there, don't you.

[[R_H]]

It might have worked better against HEAT rounds, maybe. A kinetic penetrator that is designed to crack several inches (or more) of hardened steel will laugh at loose rock dust, which is effectively all steel is. A HEAT round might have detonated in the sand dune, in which case it would have been utterly useless.

I have no idea what the fuses on the HEAT rounds were like then, but assuming the berms would have detonated them, they would have been rudimentary standoff armour (which may have prevented penetration from the front, but not from the sides or rear - depending on the vehicle of course).

[Mayabird]

I sent the crap to the barrel. I've said it before and apparently I have to say it again for the idiots who have as short a memory as they do patience: Stuart will write when he has time and feels like it, and he is a very busy man. I'm not having this thread stupidly spammed up by useless beggars.