Another point about the Endor Holocaust.

[Omeganian]

Uh, no. Turbolasers are beam weapons, so you're not going to have 200 gigatons radiating out. All of it is going to be focused into the target, and armor is going to absorb much of the energy. The bleed-off that does get radiated away is nothing to sneeze at, but frankly it still pales in comparison to the Death Star explosion.

What percentage of the energy is absorbed? What happens to the absorbed energy?

[Oni Koneko Damien]

What's the issue with the one shield generator extending around the planet as well as the DS2? Is this beyond the capability of the technology?

Well, let's leave the question about technological capability alone for a second and ask another question: Is it practical? With one shield over the entirety of the planet, that means the entire shield has to be dropped every time something enters or leaves the atmosphere. It makes a lot more sense to have multiple shields so that you can drop the local ones for ships and not leave the entirety of the moon unshielded every single time a ship goes through.

But fair enough. It's funny though. It seems that in defending plot holes in movies and shows like we do here, we employ the same kinds of logic and arguments we debunk and loathe when dealing with pseudoscience and religious folk. It's not hard to see how so many people can do these kinds of mental gymnastics when the deity in their godverse is ascribed the characteristic of can do anything.

The difference is that religion and psuedoscience deal with our reality, and often come up with predictions and claims that directly conflict with what we observe in reality. One of the core assumptions of the whole SW debate, on the other hand, is that what we see on the screen *is* reality (for that universe), and therefore trumps everything else. We see people celebrating on Endor's moon and having a great time hours after the battle, therefore the indisputable reality is that the moon wasn't devastated by DS fallout, and we have to figure out why that is.

[Xess]

I remember reading a theory that the DS2 was supported by a ground based repulsor cradle. Since it supported the mass of the DS2 it could have been used by the Rebels to push the most dangerous debris away from Endor to protect the planet.

[Captain Seafort]

I remember reading a theory that the DS2 was supported by a ground based repulsor cradle. Since it supported the mass of the DS2 it could have been used by the Rebels to push the most dangerous debris away from Endor to protect the planet.

It might even have done so without any intervention. Assuming that a) the cradle was set to exert the right force to balance the acceleration of the DSII's mass due to Endor's gravity and b) a significant fraction of the DSII's mass was converted to energy when the reactor blew, there would be a sudden imbalance, throwing the remaining mass away from the planet, a job made easier by the fact that 50% of said mass would have been flung away by the force of the explosion itself.

[Bakustra]

I remember reading a theory that the DS2 was supported by a ground based repulsor cradle. Since it supported the mass of the DS2 it could have been used by the Rebels to push the most dangerous debris away from Endor to protect the planet.

It might even have done so without any intervention. Assuming that a) the cradle was set to exert the right force to balance the acceleration of the DSII's mass due to Endor's gravity and b) a significant fraction of the DSII's mass was converted to energy when the reactor blew, there would be a sudden imbalance, throwing the remaining mass away from the planet, a job made easier by the fact that 50% of said mass would have been flung away by the force of the explosion itself.

a) is likely, but b) is not so, and we still need a planetary shield to keep Endor from being fried by radiation. Assuming that 1% of the DS2 was converted to energy (assuming an average density equal to iron) gives us 2.705e36 J of energy release. About one-half of this will hit Endor, resulting in 1.35e36 J, still thousands of times greater than the energy necessary to fragment Endor, and about 1% of the Alderaan-killing blast.

[Uraniun235]

Maybe the Endor victory celebration scenes take place in an alternate universe where the Rebels scored a major victory against the Empire that didn't involve blowing up a Death Star above Endor.

[Bakustra]

Maybe the Endor victory celebration scenes take place in an alternate universe where the Rebels scored a major victory against the Empire that didn't involve blowing up a Death Star above Endor.

You're a regular laugh riot, you know. I'm just cracking up over here.

[Darth Nostril]

Luke Force waved all the shit away so it wouldn't ruin his emotionally fraught viking burial scene with his Dads carcass.

[Darth Fanboy]

Maybe the Endor victory celebration scenes take place in an alternate universe where the Rebels scored a major victory against the Empire that didn't involve blowing up a Death Star above Endor.

It's possible really, there's no way that much hypermatter exploding all at once would have a GOOD effect on space/time. It's quite possible that the debris in the immediate vicinty got shifted into another universe all on its own or perhaps into hyperspace.

[adam_grif]

while the celebration was at night.

Or the debris from the explosion was creating an artificial night

hat actually happens in an EU novel too

I approve of this theory.

Is it practical? With one shield over the entirety of the planet, that means the entire shield has to be dropped every time something enters or leaves the atmosphere. It makes a lot more sense to have multiple shields so that you can drop the local ones for ships and not leave the entirety of the moon unshielded every single time a ship goes through.

Something being impractical isn't itself a persuasive argument here. We already know that this is most likely because endor didn't burn, but something being potentially incompetent isn't convincing enough to prove that it couldn't happen.


Unrelated question guys:

Why did the Rebels "win" the battle of Endor? Weren't there zillions of star destroyers, vastly outnumbering their fleet? Did they all just retreat when the DS2 blew up?

[Uraniun235]

Why did the Rebels "win" the battle of Endor? Weren't there zillions of star destroyers, vastly outnumbering their fleet? Did they all just retreat when the DS2 blew up?

Well, the Rebels managed to take out the fleet flagship Executor, depriving the Imperial fleet of the leadership of Admiral Piett and surely dealing a heavy blow to morale, and it could very well be that none of the remaining Star Destroyer captains were able to assume command or were competent enough to rally the fleet against Admiral Ackbar.


Oh wait sorry I forgot Palpatine actually has magic "make dudes shoot better" powers that allowed the Imperial Navy to even function properly, and when he died that went away and the Imperials were de-balled. My bad, it's been like seven years since I read Heir To The Empire, which is literally the only EU novel I have ever personally read. (It's still cool if I post here, right? )

[Stofsk]

Why did the Rebels "win" the battle of Endor? Weren't there zillions of star destroyers, vastly outnumbering their fleet? Did they all just retreat when the DS2 blew up?

Well, the Rebels managed to take out the fleet flagship Executor, depriving the Imperial fleet of the leadership of Admiral Piett and surely dealing a heavy blow to morale, and it could very well be that none of the remaining Star Destroyer captains were able to assume command or were competent enough to rally the fleet against Admiral Ackbar.


Oh wait sorry I forgot Palpatine actually has magic "make dudes shoot better" powers that allowed the Imperial Navy to even function properly, and when he died that went away and the Imperials were de-balled. My bad, it's been like seven years since I read Heir To The Empire, which is literally the only EU novel I have ever personally read.

It's not that much of a stretch really. When the Emperor dies the battle goes massively in the Rebel's favour. IIRC the Executor isn't destroyed until after the Emperor gets chucked over the railing by Vader.

(It's still cool if I post here, right? )[/quote]
get out

[Darth Yoshi]

What percentage of the energy is absorbed? What happens to the absorbed energy?

Since turbolasers are beam weapons, all we care about are the shots that hit something and get converted into a form that radiations more easily. Initially, all of the energy from a blast will be absorbed by shielding. IIRC, that gets dissipated as neutrinos. After the shields start failing, armor will be stopping blasts and will bleed off some of the energy as light and heat. The rest will be either absorbed as the armor deforms, or converted into kinetic energy as shrapnel and debris. I honestly don't know enough to say anything more, although I assume that there would be more kinetic energy than light and heat after an explosion, and supposedly the Rebel fleet has the debris handled.

It's not that much of a stretch really. When the Emperor dies the battle goes massively in the Rebel's favour. IIRC the Executor isn't destroyed until after the Emperor gets chucked over the railing by Vader.

(It's still cool if I post here, right? )

get out[/quote]IIRC the official explanation is that the Emperor's death magically throws the Imperial fleet into so much confusion that when Pellaeon orders a retreat after the Executor goes down people outside of his chain of command and of superior rank listen.

[Omeganian]

What percentage of the energy is absorbed? What happens to the absorbed energy?

Since turbolasers are beam weapons, all we care about are the shots that hit something and get converted into a form that radiations more easily. Initially, all of the energy from a blast will be absorbed by shielding. IIRC, that gets dissipated as neutrinos.

Well, 10^21 watt is the approximate firepower of the Acclamator (or half the power). So, it's there even if some 99.9% of the beam is absorbed (at least, I never heard of a reason for either side to use reduced firepowerf)

After the shields start failing, armor will be stopping blasts and will bleed off some of the energy as light and heat.

Strictly speaking, at the stage we're talking about (after the bunker is destroyed), failing shields are a considerable factor.

[Darth Yoshi]

Strictly speaking, at the stage we're talking about (after the bunker is destroyed), failing shields are a considerable factor.

Well, yeah. But simply eyeballing the explosions during the battle, they don't seem to be bright enough to be readily visible from the ground, so the sum radiated light and heat probably isn't even as much as what gets reflected by the Endor gas giant.

[Omeganian]

Strictly speaking, at the stage we're talking about (after the bunker is destroyed), failing shields are a considerable factor.

Well, yeah. But simply eyeballing the explosions during the battle, they don't seem to be bright enough to be readily visible from the ground, so the sum radiated light and heat probably isn't even as much as what gets reflected by the Endor gas giant.

We usually see the explosions through shields.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Isn't there a theory tying into the 'no fuel pods' thing with the Death Star(s)? That the DS(s) reactors were actually hyperspace taps (explaining the lack of fuel pods) and when they go all 'splody most of the matter is sucked into a hyperspace vortex and scattered across the galaxy, leaving a plume of photogenic expanding gas and a planar shockwave behind as the outermost parts of the DS(s) are vaporized or scattered but not pulled into hyperspace?

I also think there was a comic explicitly stating that most of the DS was pulled into hyperspace called Apocalypse Endor, but I'm not too sure about its canonical value...

[Bakustra]

Isn't there a theory tying into the 'no fuel pods' thing with the Death Star(s)? That the DS(s) reactors were actually hyperspace taps (explaining the lack of fuel pods) and when they go all 'splody most of the matter is sucked into a hyperspace vortex and scattered across the galaxy, leaving a plume of photogenic expanding gas and a planar shockwave behind as the outermost parts of the DS(s) are vaporized or scattered but not pulled into hyperspace?

I also think there was a comic explicitly stating that most of the DS was pulled into hyperspace called Apocalypse Endor, but I'm not too sure about its canonical value...

Apocalypse Endor is Star Wars Tales and specifically non-canonical.

The other theory rests on the problem that we have explicit mention of the DS using hypermatter reactors, and every other portrayal of hypermatter reactors indicates that they use fuel. We also have the little problem that "hyperspace taps" run against the portrayal of hyperspace so far, for both Dr. Saxton's approach and the WEG-inspired approach. Sarli's theory, like most such theories that attempt to deny the Holocaust outright, create more contradictions and problems than they resolve.

[recon20011]

The exposure of Endor to radiation I cannot explain, but as several others have pointed out, the debris from the battle would most likely have been taken care of. Remember, when space battles have been going on for thousands of years, you learn how to protect planets from space debris (not just from battles). I can't imagine that the point defense weapons on warships can't blast debris big enough to pose a threat into debris that will disintegrate entering the atmosphere. We've seen an asteroid get vaporized, its plausible that a laser would do the same to a much smaller piece of debris?

[Stofsk]

Even if that were true, the relative mass disparity between the rebel fleet and the DS2 would make such a solution unworkable. You could say a large percentage of the DS2 was disintegrated in the explosion anyway, but what's left is travelling in all directions and a small fraction of that is heading for Endor; even that small fraction likely outmasses the rebel fleet significantly enough that shooting the debris is problematic. There's also the other problem of fighting the Imperial fleet already there, although after the Executor went down what was left of the Imperial fleet may have withdrawn.

The radiation alone should have cooked the exposed surface of Endor (which Han and Leia and all the rest were sitting on) within seconds/minutes of the explosion, assuming the radiation would be a lot. The debris would impact within the hour or so. If there's no shield, there's no explanation for why anyone is still dancing on the planet or why Luke gives his father a funeral pyre on Endor (which would have probably taken awhile to set up given he was the only one who was doing it).

[Omeganian]

I can't imagine that the point defense weapons on warships can't blast debris big enough to pose a threat into debris that will disintegrate entering the atmosphere.

And such a disintegration doesn't change much. You still have the kinetic energy heating the atmosphere, you have a lot of dust (and the skies were clear); even the particles which were dust to begin with (not to mention the new dust created) are enough to cause some problem by the time of the celebration. I don't see a solution except a shield which vaporizes the metal by either heating it enough to accelerate the resulting gas away from the planet, or creating some analogue to the ST NDF reaction.