nBSG Cylons vs 40K Space Marines (Non-Chaos)

[LordOfWolves]

So, the setup is thus:

A Space Marine Chapter Fleet picks up a distress signal from an unexplored sub-sector (which is actually the Cyrannus system, moreover, the Twelve Colonies) and goes to investigate, only to discover that the entire sub-sector has been nuked to hell. None of their preliminary scans turn up any signs of organic life.

They drop a sizable recon force (consisting of about 5-7 Scout Squads, with 2-4 Land Speeder Storms running CAP and transport duties, along with a few jump-pack equipped Assault Squads, say 2 or 3, armed with the standard bolt pistol and chainsword layout) to scout one of the planets, only to encounter a Cylon occupation force (consisting of around 10-20 squads of 5 Centurions each with some toting heavy weapons (by Cylon standards, of course), along with some Humanoid-models acting as combat officers/sergeants (most likely Ones, Twos, Fives, and Sixes, probably some Fours as medical staff), as well as a few squads of Raiders for close air support).

When the two sides converge, who holds the overall advantage? The Space Marines, or the nBSG Cylons?


If my opinion has any weight whatsoever here on this topic, my money's on the Space Marines doing a nasty number on the toasters. Granted, the Cylons may have a numerical advantage here in this scenario, but I think the Space Marines have the disciplinary advantage of having thousands of years to hone their skills in the art of war. Plus, the Marines are basically built for the purposes of war.


You've heard my two cents. Now, I leave this forum open to you guys. Go on, discuss!

[Srelex]

The Space Marines win, and win easy. Unless the Raiders have nukes, I don't think they'll take a single casaulty against the Centurions which have, what, modern-day rifle caliber rounds? And I think in turn Centurions have been downed by small arms fire, so imagine what bolter shells would do.

[remus2]

The numeric advantage of the cylons is nowhere near enough, considering the difference in ordnance and armor.
Bolters can chew a light armored vehicle….
Not to mention that A naked space marine might have a chance against a cylon in hand to hand combat

[Ghost Rider]

white_rabbit's signature:



Replace a good many of the popular shit and there you have it. Same feeling as well.

[remus2]

white_rabbit's signature:



Replace a good many of the popular shit and there you have it. Same feeling as well.

Well, we have ... culture, supreme commander, Honor Harrington, Star wars, ahhh the At 43 setting, but it isn’t so popular yet...
Eve online might have a chance ... there are some.
Of course if you try to find at least some size equivalent between the armed super heavies.
Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica & co are not comparable. The respective ships of the line/wall are insignificant when compared to a Luna class cruiser. And on land they have no equivalent for a baneblade or a titan and nothing to take them out –special circumstances excluded . Except starship support

[LordOfWolves]

The Space Marines win, and win easy. Unless the Raiders have nukes, I don't think they'll take a single casaulty against the Centurions which have, what, modern-day rifle caliber rounds? And I think in turn Centurions have been downed by small arms fire, so imagine what bolter shells would do.

I really must point out that, at least on what was seen in the miniseries, the Raiders have the capacity to arm themselves with nukes for the purposes of bombarding targets from orbit. Also, I think the Thunderhawk pilots may have a bit of trouble dealing with a craft that is sentient.

The humanoid-Cylons could also, potentially, run some infiltration tactics to get a good idea of who they're fighting. But, noting that it would be rather hard to successfully get one of the female versions behind enemy lines (which would also rule out the possibilities of a "honeypot" scenario taking place, much like the one Helo fell for in the majority of season 1, since, given on what information I can gleam from my 5th ed. Space Marine Codex, Space Marines are sterile), in order to have a successful espionage operation, the Cylons would have to forfeit some of their battles to the Space Marines, feint whenever possible, and reverse engineer what they can (such as bolters, lascannons, meltaguns, assault cannons, the like).

Also, on the ground, the Space Marines would, again potentially, wipe the floor with the Cylons. The weaponry advantage belongs clearly to the Space Marines. Yes, there is the possibility of a plasma weapon critically failing, but my guess is that the bolters would do the most damage, followed by flamers, meltas, lascannons, and power weapons/fists (in that order).

[Ghost Rider]

Y'know what would end this? Putting up some sort of calculation figures, meaning numbers in context that can be compared and debated...rather then

"I like that Space Marine, he reminds me of my old boot camp sarge. I say he butt fuck's Six and then kills the rest with his melta gun. I dunno why though"

But continue with the rest. I still stand by rabbit's signature and also I love newbies demonstrating base ignorance of the search function uses.

[LordOfWolves]

Y'know what would end this? Putting up some sort of calculation figures, meaning numbers in context that can be compared and debated...rather then

"I like that Space Marine, he reminds me of my old boot camp sarge. I say he butt fuck's Six and then kills the rest with his melta gun. I dunno why though"

But continue with the rest. I still stand by rabbit's signature and also I love newbies demonstrating base ignorance of the search function uses.

Good sir, you doubt my intellect. I'm not some inane piece of drivel, content to randomly spout nonsense. I'm actually delving into the argument here, conceding points and retorting as I see fit.

Now, if you would like to take this elsewhere, I would be rather amused to hand you your ass, lightly salted with a side of salad, on a silver platter. If not, then please at least attempt to contribute to the argument. I'm actually rather interested in which side you're on, the toasters or the MAHREENS.

I am also completely aware of the search button; it just hadn't occurred to me to use it.


Getting back on to the original topic, I think that the Cylons could win a few battles short term since the Marines wouldn't know exactly what they're fighting. If they play they cards right, they could have the Space Marines on the ropes for quite a while.

However, in the long run, the Marines would win due to their training, their efficiency, and of course, their weaponry. Yes, the Cylons have the ability to resurrect and keep on truckin' and poundin' away, but in order to resurrect, they have to "download" into a new body aboard a Resurrection Ship, and then they have to figure out how to get the newly downloaded (along with themselves) back into the fight without the Thunderhawks intercepting the Heavy Raiders. That alone is a logistical nightmare.

There's also the topic of how the Cylons would deal with Dreadnoughts, which is another nightmare all in itself.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, this battle is really slanted towards the Astartes. Not that I'm complaining about that, but the Cylons will be learning 3 things abouts humans from their mass- I mean battle with the Astartes. 1: Humans outgun Cylons. 2: Cylons really aren't popular due to their genocidal nature towards humanity. 3: Cylons really kicked the damn hornet's nest when they thought that the Astartes can be crushed by their Centurions.

[LordOfWolves]

Yeah, this battle is really slanted towards the Astartes. Not that I'm complaining about that, but the Cylons will be learning 3 things abouts humans from their mass- I mean battle with the Astartes. 1: Humans outgun Cylons. 2: Cylons really aren't popular due to their genocidal nature towards humanity. 3: Cylons really kicked the damn hornet's nest when they thought that the Astartes can be crushed by their Centurions.

I think that, while weapons do play a role in this situation, what you're basically saying is that the toasters are frakked because the fleshbags have bigger guns than they do, when really there's more to it than that. The Cylons are facing thousands of years of genetic engineering, built and bred for war, indoctrinated and trained for battle; not just superior firepower and technologies.

Besides, it's not just the Centurions the Marines are facing, either. You forgot to take into account the humanoid-Cylons, the Raiders, the Hybrids, the Heavy Raiders...basically, a military occupation force.



Of course, a Battle Barge vs Basestar fight would be totally awesome to see...

[Aaron]

You mean the ones that aren't all that more durable then a human, the fighters who in the words of one Cylon "are little more then dogs" and with one or two exceptions just fly in a mob toward the enemy?

The Cylons are a force designed to fight humans, humans with a personal arms level about at our own. Their ships are frail starfish designed to stand off and lob missiles at their targets, most of the time they don't even use nukes.

This against a culture with 10,000 years of unending warfare, who's ships can burn continents and whose Marines can punch through tank armour.

It's not a battle, it's a slaughter.

Edit: The Cylons are badass enough in their own universe, against an enemy of their own level. This is like pitting a Roman Legion against a modern day Mechanized Brigade.

[Night_stalker]

Exactly, the Astartes will bring in their own armor, namely Predators armed with lascannons, and Dreadnoughts which are basically the sort of thing that give Centurions nightmares.

[Serafina]

Well, we have ... culture, supreme commander, Honor Harrington, Star wars, ahhh the At 43 setting, but it isn’t so popular yet...
Eve online might have a chance ... there are some.
Of course if you try to find at least some size equivalent between the armed super heavies.
Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica & co are not comparable. The respective ships of the line/wall are insignificant when compared to a Luna class cruiser. And on land they have no equivalent for a baneblade or a titan and nothing to take them out –special circumstances excluded . Except starship support

Well:
-The culture would killfuck Space Marines and the whole 40K galaxy, with the possible exception of Necrons. At least if they want to.
-Supreme Commander: It's a game, so you can't really establish any good numbers for it. There are claims for everything between "KT-range for basic tanks" to "about as good as a MBT". Plus, they simply have nearly no space fleet.
-The same goes for EvE, except that they have a space fleet and we know nothing about their ground capacities. Again, not measurable.
-Honor Harrington: Well, HH-Marines in full armor might stand a chance against 40K on the ground, but their ships would get raped in space. Plus, they simply lack the numbers to compete with 40K.
-Star Wars: Yes, the two are remarkably close in capabilities. Most estaminates point to SW winning, mostly due to their insanely fast FTL and large, united industrial base - but not due to individual superiority. No definate answer has yet been established.

In most cases, it's very easy to determine who would win.
Many Sci-Fi universes differ in power by orders of magniture - if one side has 1000 times as many ships with 30 times the firepower each, there really isn't a lot of room.
These differences tend to be smaller in ground combat (you simply can't trow around gigatons of firepower on planets - at least not if you want your infantry to survive). But they are still there.

While i do not know much about nBSG, you would have to show that they are in the same league as the Space Marines.
So far, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Imperial Overlord]

Also, I think the Thunderhawk pilots may have a bit of trouble dealing with a craft that is sentient.

Why would they? The merely human Colonials are able to kill them in droves with small craft armed with autocannons and missiles. 40K craft are capable of accelerations measured in tens or hundreds of Gs, use megaton level explosions as antifighter flak, and use super tough materials as armour. They're prepared to fly against Eldar with superior technology and reflexes. Why would raiders be particularly difficult for Astartes?

[LordOfWolves]

Also, I think the Thunderhawk pilots may have a bit of trouble dealing with a craft that is sentient.

Why would they? The merely human Colonials are able to kill them in droves with small craft armed with autocannons and missiles. 40K craft are capable of accelerations measured in tens or hundreds of Gs, use megaton level explosions as antifighter flak, and use super tough materials as armour. They're prepared to fly against Eldar with superior technology and reflexes. Why would raiders be particularly difficult for Astartes?

Because this foe has the capacity to learn. In the series, it was noted that the Cylons had a few "fighter aces" (more infamously, Scar) since they could learn and use counter-tactics against the Colonials. So, since the Raider could learn and get a good idea of what it's up against while trying to figure out a way to counter it, the Thunderhawk pilots will have to become...unpredictable, shall we say (that is, go against the teachings they've received regarding dogfighting) in order to outwit the Raiders.


Again, as I noted before, the Raiders also have the capacity to arm themselves with nukes for orbital strikes, which could level the playing field, if only by a wee bit.

[Aaron]

You realize that the IoM's forces regularly fight in an NBC environment right? And that the aircraft of the IoM have to fight and survive in their own universe against weapons of a similar scale? I'm not disputing that the Cylons will score some kills but that their so out of their league that the outcome is inevitable; defeat.

They couldn't even defeat a foe of their own level without resorting to a backdoor in the Colonials own network!

[Serafina]

Also, I think the Thunderhawk pilots may have a bit of trouble dealing with a craft that is sentient.

Why would they? The merely human Colonials are able to kill them in droves with small craft armed with autocannons and missiles. 40K craft are capable of accelerations measured in tens or hundreds of Gs, use megaton level explosions as antifighter flak, and use super tough materials as armour. They're prepared to fly against Eldar with superior technology and reflexes. Why would raiders be particularly difficult for Astartes?

Typical no-numbers mentality in action - comparing traits instead of numbers.
The raiders are "intelligent" and thus superior.
Just like phasers are superior because they are "phasing", or numerous other examples out there.

Such simple traits are much easier to graps than actual performance - it involves no math.
Children can do it "i use my unstoppable power-beam!" "nu-uh, i counter with my teleporation" "then i use my supernova-power!" "i use my shield!!" - and so on.

There is of course nothing inherently wrong with that - having capabilities that the other side hasn't can be decisive - but you have to apply actual numbers if you want to get real results. In the example above, you would have to show that:
-the reaction speed is fast enough to evade a lightspeed attack with the teleportation
-the damage-dealing capabilities of the area attack on a human-sized target
-the damage-absorbing capabilities of the forcefield

Likewise, you would have to demonstrate how being an "intelligent craft" improves the actual performance and gives the raiders an edge compared to Thunderhawks.
So far, this ability seems to be quite underwhelming - after all, Thunderhawks are piloted by an intelligent pilot assisted by a semi-intelligent machine spirit to boot.
Really, nearly EVERY sci-fi aicraft, including real life is intelligent - or rather, the pilot is.

[Aaron]

Thunderhawks are also a transport/dropship, though they can engage in air-to-air combat that is not there primary function. Really he ought to be talking about Lightings, Thunderbolts and the various space fighters. But I get the feeling he's just regurgitating stuff.

[LordOfWolves]

You realize that the IoM's forces regularly fight in an NBC environment right? And that the aircraft of the IoM have to fight and survive in their own universe against weapons of a similar scale? I'm not disputing that the Cylons will score some kills but that their so out of their league that the outcome is inevitable; defeat.

They couldn't even defeat a foe of their own level without resorting to a backdoor in the Colonials own network!

That was because the toasters learned of the vulnerabilities of the Colonial networking system--not because the Cylons were losing. They simply exploited a loophole (or at least, tried to), nothing more.

Also, an Astral Choir is not the same as a Colonial network. As far as I'm aware, the Colonials weren't dealing with powers that were trying to corrupt them at every corner, nor were they traveling, on a regular basis, through a portal that was basically a shortcut through hell.

Thunderhawks are also a transport/dropship, though they can engage in air-to-air combat that is not there primary function. Really he ought to be talking about Lightings, Thunderbolts and the various space fighters. But I get the feeling he's just regurgitating stuff.

I was actually going to get to that, and it's space combat we're talking about here.

[Serafina]

Thunderhawks are also a transport/dropship, though they can engage in air-to-air combat that is not there primary function. Really he ought to be talking about Lightings, Thunderbolts and the various space fighters. But I get the feeling he's just regurgitating stuff.

Well, to be fair, Space Marines rarely use these.
Mostly because the Thunderhawk can take insane amounts of punishment and has very decent AA-turrets on his own.

And small, surgical strikeforces are not that vulnerable to airpower once they are on the ground - and Thunderhawks get that job done just fine. If there is truly overwhelming AA-fire, there is still the good old airburst orbital bombardemnt followed by droppods seconds later.

But to get up on Lightnings (Thunderbolts are really more multipurpose aircraft) - they regulary dogfight at hypersonic speed. They have enough armor to take autocannon hits and still fight on. AA-missiles carry warheads that can take out 40K-tanks.
Compared to what i know about nBSG-fighters, that's like a F22 fighting against the WWI-fightercraft.
Your "intelligent fighter-craft" can be as intelligent as it wants - no tactic is going to win that battle.
Or do you think the Red Baron could shoot down an F22?

[Aaron]

That was because the toasters learned of the vulnerabilities of the Colonial networking system--not because the Cylons were losing. They simply exploited a loophole (or at least, tried to), nothing more.

Really? Is there any evidence that the Cylons could have won without it? The show I saw had one old Battlestar regularly hold off state of the art Cylon ships, occasionally kill one and the Pegasus killed several on it's own with a skeleton crew.

Also, an Astral Choir is not the same as a Colonial network. As far as I'm aware, the Colonials weren't dealing with powers that were trying to corrupt them at every corner, nor were they traveling, on a regular basis, through a portal that was basically a shortcut through hell.

Really? I never would have guessed, nor did I state such a thing.

I was actually going to get to that, and it's space combat we're talking about here.

That being the case, the Toasters are even more fucked then they are on the ground. The only advantage the Cylons have is that their FTL doesn't rely on the Warp.

Edit: Fixed some dumb spelling.

[remus2]

Well:
-The culture would killfuck Space Marines and the whole 40K galaxy, with the possible exception of Necrons. At least if they want to.
-Supreme Commander: It's a game, so you can't really establish any good numbers for it. There are claims for everything between "KT-range for basic tanks" to "about as good as a MBT". Plus, they simply have nearly no space fleet.
-The same goes for EvE, except that they have a space fleet and we know nothing about their ground capacities. Again, not measurable.
-Honor Harrington: Well, HH-Marines in full armor might stand a chance against 40K on the ground, but their ships would get raped in space. Plus, they simply lack the numbers to compete with 40K.
-Star Wars: Yes, the two are remarkably close in capabilities. Most estaminates point to SW winning, mostly due to their insanely fast FTL and large, united industrial base - but not due to individual superiority. No definate answer has yet been established.

In most cases, it's very easy to determine who would win.
Many Sci-Fi universes differ in power by orders of magniture - if one side has 1000 times as many ships with 30 times the firepower each, there really isn't a lot of room.
These differences tend to be smaller in ground combat (you simply can't trow around gigatons of firepower on planets - at least not if you want your infantry to survive). But they are still there.

While i do not know much about nBSG, you would have to show that they are in the same league as the Space Marines.
So far, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Honor Harrington has quite the feats to fight the Wh40k in space. The wedge could be well used as a point blank weapon to mission kill various vessels, and the missiles are a godsend.
But the Halo and Mass Effect are not games ? Is warhammer 40000 not a game?
No comment on Supreme Commander , as I only rushed through the campaign without even listening to what the briefing said.
Eve dose lack a depiction of total ground warfare - maybe dust will do, but those are more like a police force, and if they fail, well to bad- the planet gets nuked by capsuleers. But any large land battle may be won by a gigantic fleet asset blasting the enemy into smitherines with targeting from spotters, satellites and ship sensors, so it gets more a question of personal fighting. Boarding parties aforementioned marine/police force objective captuer and the like.
What always counts in a Sf setting with ships (should defenses not be vastly overpowered) is the space assets. The eve setting has the numbers and the power to fight of an wh40k invasion( maybe even repulse, conquer and hold a quadrant after bloody conflict – for witch sadly most power blocks lack a stomach in eve, and are to busy whit domestic problems. Not that the Imperium or the eldars are not).
But this then would degenerate in a economical war of corruption, consumerism and marketing
Level of technology is depicted by various ship modules and cargo manifests and literature.
If you have a problem with eve lacking the comprehensive literature of warhammer, well they have the chronicles and the short stories and two novels out.
– I have not read the novels as undead and the crazy Russian teams do not have them. ( Shipping fees are astronomical, so no thanks... I’ll buy the books for my collections when I am, fortune willing, filthy rich)

[LordOfWolves]

Thunderhawks are also a transport/dropship, though they can engage in air-to-air combat that is not there primary function. Really he ought to be talking about Lightings, Thunderbolts and the various space fighters. But I get the feeling he's just regurgitating stuff.

Well, to be fair, Space Marines rarely use these.
Mostly because the Thunderhawk can take insane amounts of punishment and has very decent AA-turrets on his own.

And small, surgical strikeforces are not that vulnerable to airpower once they are on the ground - and Thunderhawks get that job done just fine. If there is truly overwhelming AA-fire, there is still the good old airburst orbital bombardemnt followed by droppods seconds later.

But to get up on Lightnings (Thunderbolts are really more multipurpose aircraft) - they regulary dogfight at hypersonic speed. They have enough armor to take autocannon hits and still fight on. AA-missiles carry warheads that can take out 40K-tanks.
Compared to what i know about nBSG-fighters, that's like a F22 fighting against the WWI-fightercraft.
Your "intelligent fighter-craft" can be as intelligent as it wants - no tactic is going to win that battle.
Or do you think the Red Baron could shoot down an F22?

You fail to recognize that it isn't just tech that wins wars. It's the soldiers using the tech they way they've been taught. The Space Marines have all of the above, of course. That much is given.

All things considered, I was hoping some people would look past the tech and start discussing the tactics...numbers alone don't win wars, after all...

The only advantage the Cylons have is that their FTL doesn't rely on the Warp.

The Cylons could use their FTL to their advantage, yes. Probably jump some reinforcements in before the Space Marines can call for help. Then again, it would all come down to logistics.


Of course, no one's brought up the damage a Dreadnought could do to a squad of Centurions...I'd imagine that those caught under the righteous fury would have a nasty image imprinted on them when they download into a new body. Nightmarish, to say the least.

[Aaron]

It's fairly simple: the Cylons have neither the numbers, nor the firepower, nor the logistics to take this. They face a galaxy spanning Empire of a million worlds. All the fancy tactics won't matter (incidentally, tactics are what amateurs aka Internet wankers talk about, logistics win wars).

The Cylons could use their FTL to their advantage, yes. Probably jump some reinforcements in before the Space Marines can call for help. Then again, it would all come down to logistics.

It will allow them to hide, maybe raid an undefended planet or settlement. The firepower disparity is too great for them to overcome. Space Marines are also capable of operating for extended periods without resupply, so it's not like your going to starve them to death.

Of course, no one's brought up the damage a Dreadnought could do to a squad of Centurions...I'd imagine that those caught under the righteous fury would have a nasty image imprinted on them when they download into a new body. Nightmarish, to say the least.

Why would we? Do you need to discuss in detail the result of a dog getting hit by a car to know whether it's dead?

[Serafina]

Honor Harrington has quite the feats to fight the Wh40k in space. The wedge could be well used as a point blank weapon to mission kill various vessels, and the missiles are a godsend.

"Feats" are exactly the no-number mentality i mentioned above.
If the enemy has giga- or even teratons of firepower, a HH-ship WON'T get into range to have any effect.
At best, they can use it to block shots - but it has been shown that energy can bleed over the wedge and hot the sidewalls anyway, and with such levels of firepower that is going to crack the open very fast.
And the missiles - just lack the firepower to scratch 40K-vessels. They could most likely throw thousands of them at an escort without brining down the shields. I would have to do the numbers on that one, but you can generally expect that their missile-pods will run out of missiles before damaging a cruiser (or larger target).

But the Halo and Mass Effect are not games ? Is warhammer 40000 not a game?.
No comment on Supreme Commander , as I only rushed through the campaign without even listening to what the briefing said.

Of course it is.
40K-numbers are not based on the tabletop or video games. That's because they are games, and thus all numbers are subject to game balance and visual effects are rarely if ever established against baseline materials.
We do have, however, significant numbers of fiction about the 40K universe. Those can be used to establish rough amounts of firepower, endurance, speeds and other capabilities and performance limits.

Bottom line:
Games are not a good way to establish numbers.

Supreme Commander and Eve Online lack other sources to establish such numbers. Therefore, they are simply a large unknown - they might be strong, they might be weak, we just don't know.

Eve dose lack a depiction of total ground warfare - maybe dust will do, but those are more like a police force, and if they fail, well to bad- the planet gets nuked by capsuleers. But any large land battle may be won by a gigantic fleet asset blasting the enemy into smitherines with targeting from spotters, satellites and ship sensors, so it gets more a question of personal fighting. Boarding parties aforementioned marine/police force objective captuer and the like.

Sooo...we know nothing about their ground forces. We don't know how much damage they can take or dish out, we know nothing about their tactics and stragies, their numbers, support forces and so on...
Thanks for proving my point.

What always counts in a Sf setting with ships (should defenses not be vastly overpowered) is the space assets. The eve setting has the numbers and the power to fight of an wh40k invasion( maybe even repulse, conquer and hold a quadrant after bloody conflict – for witch sadly most power blocks lack a stomach in eve, and are to busy whit domestic problems. Not that the Imperium or the eldars are not).

Proove it. Do some calculations.

To beat 40K-vessels, they have to dish out AT LEAST low gigaton levels of firepower.
You can establish those by calculating the effect of their weapons against something like an asteroid, or a planetary bombardment.
Ships don't count, because those might be shielded, have superconcucting armor or insanely tough alloys. Therefore, they can have virtually ever resistance to damage - which means that you can't get good numbers out of it.

But this then would degenerate in a economical war of corruption, consumerism and marketing
Level of technology is depicted by various ship modules and cargo manifests and literature.
If you have a problem with eve lacking the comprehensive literature of warhammer, well they have the chronicles and the short stories and two novels out.
– I have not read the novels as undead and the crazy Russian teams do not have them. ( Shipping fees are astronomical, so no thanks... I’ll buy the books for my collections when I am, fortune willing, filthy rich)

Well, see above - games are simply not reliable enough to establish numbers.
Otherwise, i could pull out StarCraft and "proove" that a Terran Marine can take down Battleships with his Assault Rifle!