Jamaican Police try to arrest drug lord. Locals shoot back

[Hillary]

From BBC

Jamaican security forces are fighting with gunmen as the government attempts to take control of an alleged drug lord's stronghold in the capital.

Gunfire erupted as troops and police stormed the Tivoli Gardens area to search for Christopher "Dudus" Coke, who is wanted in the US.

A soldier was killed. It follows two police deaths on Sunday.

Supporters of Mr Coke are fighting to stop his extradition to the US on drug and gun-running charges.

So far there is no indication that the security forces have been successful in tracking down their target in the warren-like slum.

Gunmen in the area are reported to be heavily armed. There are unconfirmed reports of civilian victims.

Mr Coke, who insists he is a legitimate businessman, enjoys the support of many impoverished Kingston residents who see him as a benefactor and have vowed to protect him at any cost.

There are also reports of violence in other parts of the capital, raising fears that the unrest is spreading.

A state of emergency remains in place in parts of Kingston.

The restrictions were imposed on Friday after several police stations were attacked following an announcement by the prime minister agreeing to the extradition of Mr Coke.

The BBC's Nick Davis in Kingston says the operation started about noon on Monday, when large numbers of soldiers were seen heading to the poor Tivoli Gardens area.

Overnight the central streets of this capital city echoed to the occasional boom of an explosion, or the sharp retorts of a gun battle.

Grey smoke billowed from two areas in the impoverished Tivoli Gardens neighbourhood.

There have been deaths. First-hand reports are hard to come by, but Jamaicans who have spoken to people living in the area say they are confined to their homes, and desperate to find a safe way out.

They are squeezed between the army and police on the one hand, and gunmen trying to protect the local big man - Christopher Coke, known here simply as Dudas.
Plumes of smoke could be seen coming from the area as helicopters buzzed overhead.

Security Minister Dwight Nelson said the soldiers, in a joint operation with police, had broken down the barricades around Tivoli Gardens and were conducting a house-to-house search for Mr Coke.

"The purpose of the operation is to execute the warrant for extradition and to detain [Coke] so he can appear in court," he told the BBC.

He insisted the police were "doing everything in their power to ensure the city remains safe".

But some reports said police had met heavy resistance from gunmen as they tried to enter Tivoli Gardens.

Residents in the area were advised to remain indoors but the streets were already quiet as Jamaica observed its Labor Day holiday.

The US State Department said the fighting had intermittently blocked the road to Kingston's international airport and forced the cancellation of some flights.

Tivoli Gardens, the constituency represented in parliament by Prime Minister Bruce Golding, is the stronghold of Mr Coke, 41, who describes himself as a community leader.

His supporters see him as a man who is fulfilling a role that the government does not, such as giving them money to support their children.

Before the fighting, they staged protests and barricaded streets to stop his arrest and extradition.

One resident of Kingston, Suzanne, rang the BBC to say Mr Coke provided a valuable service to the community - unlike the politicians.

"If your grandmother dies, you go to him and he buries her," she said.

"Okay, that's a fact. If you're a politician you're not going to find him, especially Bruce [Golding], you're not going to find him anywhere in the constituency, so you go to him [Dudus].

"You need your child to go to school - you go to him, and this is how it's been, this kind of patronage."

The US justice department accuses Mr Coke of being one of the world's most dangerous drug barons.

He is said to lead a gang called the Shower Posse - owing to the volume of bullets used in shootings - and operate an international smuggling network.

He faces a life sentence if convicted on charges filed against him in New York.

The gang has also been blamed for numerous murders in Jamaica and the US.

The trouble started last week when Mr Golding said he was prepared to send Mr Coke to the US on drugs and weapons trafficking charges.

The decision reversed nine months of opposition to his extradition.

Mr Golding had argued that the evidence against Mr Coke was obtained illegally by intercepting mobile telephone calls.

But he changed his mind in the face of growing public discontent, and questions about his possible ties to Mr Coke.

He has denounced the unrest as a "calculated assault on the authority of the state that cannot be tolerated".

It's interesting that a sizeable number of the locals effectively see him as the welfare state and are prepared to fight the police to protect him.

[Solauren]

He effectively has his own private army now.

This could be considered a national security threat.

Send in the army. And if Jamaica doesn't have an army, umm... Figure something out.

[Siege]

This "Dudus" character seems to be doing what the Italian Mafia did in the USA back in the early 20th century: do the job the government neglects to do, thus rallying the community... And then use that community as a shield (and sword I suppose) when the government comes gunning for you.

Also, it amuses me that the name of a supposed drug lord is "Mr. Coke".

[xerex]

He effectively has his own private army now.

This could be considered a national security threat.

Send in the army. And if Jamaica doesn't have an army, umm... Figure something out.

lol they have small army of 2 regiments. essentially a light infantry force.

dont know if they are up to this task.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Since we're the ones who want him, I don't imagine it would be too hard to, say, offer the services of a couple of front-line combat units rotating back from Iraq. Motivate them by telling them that the speed with which they get back to the CONUS is entirely dependant upon the speed with which they sort out Jamacia's little insurrection problem and bring Mr. Coke to justice.

Of course, you should only do that if you're like Shep and want to see a brown person bloodbath.

[Garibaldi]

Aren't you also the guy who floated the idea of the EU invading Greece and restructuring it through a military occupation? Do you even realize how embarrassingly stupid the shit you write is?

[Korvan]

I'm just thinking that maybe, just maybe you want to get the guy quietly into custody before you make the announcement of his extradition.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm just thinking that maybe, just maybe you want to get the guy quietly into custody before you make the announcement of his extradition.

The problem with that approach is that it might succeed, and the Jamaican government hasn't exactly been tripping over itself to hand this bloke over.

Beeb

The gang is believed to control Tivoli Gardens, an area of the capital, Kingston, which Mr Golding [the Jamaican PM] represents in parliament.

Last week, the prime minister admitted his party had sanctioned the hiring of a Los Angeles-based law firm suspected of lobbying Washington on behalf of Mr Coke.

He had long denied any knowledge of the firm's hiring. But in a TV statement on Monday night, Mr Golding apologised to the nation.

"In hindsight, the party should never have become involved in the way that it did and I should never have allowed it, but I must accept responsibility for it and express my remorse to the nation."

For nine months, Mr Golding had argued that Mr Coke should not be extradited because the evidence against him had been obtained illegally by intercepting mobile phone calls.

Telegraph

Mr Coke allegedly leads the Shower Posse, a violent drug gang also active in the US, Britain and Canada. They have historically been loyal to Jamaica's ruling Labour Party.

Jamaican politicians set up rival gangs – allegedly even arming them - in the 1970s to mobilise local support at election time but the gangs have since largely turned to drug trafficking.

[xerex]

KINGSTON, Jamaica – Thousands of heavily armed police and soldiers barged past barricades into the capital's most violent slums on Tuesday, clashing with die-hard defenders of a gang leader sought by the United States. At least 30 people have died, officals said.

Jamaica's security forces, reeling from bold attacks by masked gangsters loyal to underworld boss Christopher "Dudus" Coke, were in the midst of a nearly daylong assault in the heart of West Kingston's ramshackle slums, long afflicted by gang strife.

On Tuesday, the third consecutive day of unrest, masked gunmen in West Kingston vanished down side streets barricaded with barbed wire and junked cars intended to block outsiders. The sound of gunfire echoed across the neighborhoods in Jamaica's south coast, far from the all-inclusive tourist meccas of the north shore.

Police spokesman Corporal Richard Minott told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the fighting in West Kingston alone has killed 26 civilians and one security official. Police had reported that earlier fighting killed two officers and a soldier.

AP via Yahoo

[Phantasee]

Since we're the ones who want him, I don't imagine it would be too hard to, say, offer the services of a couple of front-line combat units rotating back from Iraq. Motivate them by telling them that the speed with which they get back to the CONUS is entirely dependant upon the speed with which they sort out Jamacia's little insurrection problem and bring Mr. Coke to justice.

Of course, you should only do that if you're like Shep and want to see a brown person bloodbath.

Don't try to attribute your own stupid mumblings to someone else. You came up with that retarded idea, not Shep.

As another user pointed out, the Italian mafia did a similar thing in both the eastern US and in Sicily. For another example, Hezbollah in Lebanon, who even have their own hospitals and security forces operating in parallel to the government health and police system.

It's a pretty good technique, apparently.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Since we're the ones who want him, I don't imagine it would be too hard to, say, offer the services of a couple of front-line combat units rotating back from Iraq. Motivate them by telling them that the speed with which they get back to the CONUS is entirely dependant upon the speed with which they sort out Jamacia's little insurrection problem and bring Mr. Coke to justice.

Of course, you should only do that if you're like Shep and want to see a brown person bloodbath.

Don't try to attribute your own stupid mumblings to someone else. You came up with that retarded idea, not Shep.

Tell me, are you an idiot, or do you just want a chance to rip off a newbie's cock?

Look at the words I used again, and read them. I'll quote them for you.

Of course, you should only do that if you're like Shep and want to see a brown person bloodbath.

As with the whole military repossession of Greece, I made it clear that it was the most horrendously bad idea soloution to the problem that has any chance of actually working - but also that I did not endorse the option.

English, motherfucker: try reading it sometime!

[Phantasee]

Stop acting a victim. I couldn't care less about when you joined.

Your point was retarded and you tried to pawn it off on Shep as soon as you realized everyone would jump down your throat for it. Here's a hint: don't post stupid shit. Then you don't have to cover up the fact you don't have brilliant ideas every moment of the day.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Stop acting a victim. I couldn't care less about when you joined.

Your point was retarded and you tried to pawn it off on Shep as soon as you realized everyone would jump down your throat for it. Here's a hint: don't post stupid shit. Then you don't have to cover up the fact you don't have brilliant ideas every moment of the day.

At what point did I try to pawn it off on Shep, huh? I never said he had personally made the idea.

you, read motherfucker!

The words I used were "Should only do that if you're like Shep," calling out Shep as an example of an amoral, unempathic warmongering excuse for a human being who gets a hard-on for the idea of hundreds of brown people being slaughtered by big, tough Americans.

I never said it was a good idea, and in fact I repudated it as being a singularly bloodthirsty and bad idea. Moron.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I never said it was a good idea, and in fact I repudated it as being a singularly bloodthirsty and bad idea. Moron.

Then why the fuck did you post it? Why not just add something constructive to the damned thread, instead of a post so moronic that even you admit that it is bad?

------------------

Anyway, enough of that retarded little distraction, and back to the OP. The Jamaican government has been dragging its feet over the extradition process for a while. What are the odds they are going to go through with it now? I can see them using the casualties they have suffered as an excuse to leave Dudus and his gangs alone. Tell the U.S. that they aren't going to lose any more lives on their behalf.

[Phantasee]

I can't access the figures right now (lol accounting class) but I understand that marijuana is a large part of Jamaica's economy (major export? I don't recall). Perhaps they are paying lip service and intended for that lip to be bit. Then they don't have to make an effort again for a good long while. Meanwhile, there is money to be made.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I never said it was a good idea, and in fact I repudated it as being a singularly bloodthirsty and bad idea. Moron.

Then why the fuck did you post it? Why not just add something constructive to the damned thread, instead of a post so moronic that even you admit that it is bad?

Because it is a plausable soloution, taking U.S. combat troops and loaning them to the Jamaican government for the operation.

Anyway, enough of that retarded little distraction, and back to the OP. The Jamaican government has been dragging its feet over the extradition process for a while. What are the odds they are going to go through with it now? I can see them using the casualties they have suffered as an excuse to leave Dudus and his gangs alone. Tell the U.S. that they aren't going to lose any more lives on their behalf.

That would be an even worse idea than mine; it would be sending a clarion-clear signal to all and wide that if you have the armaments, the stomach and fortitude to shed enough Jamaican government blood they'll back off and let you carve a criminal empire out of their territory.

[Phantasee]

No, it's not plausible. What makes you think Jamaica would be eager to accept foreign troops on it's territory? Why the fuck should they bend over to accomodate the US in the extradition of their own citizen? And if you're so set against it, why do you keep advocating it?

Let the big boys talk, Chuckles.

[ShadowDragon8685]

No, it's not plausible. What makes you think Jamaica would be eager to accept foreign troops on it's territory?

What part of "Loaning the Jamaicans our troops" didn't you understand?

Why the fuck should they bend over to accomodate the US in the extradition of their own citizen?

Treaties, the punitive measures we could enact against them if they refuse to give us a wanted criminal, the fact that could shut down their American tourist industry like we did Cuba, the fact that, in the long run, one crook, no matter how much he brings in, is worth a hell of a lot less than the U.S. of A's favor?

And if you're so set against it, why do you keep advocating it?

Fuck yourself and read, motherfucker. I didn't advocate it! I said it's a goddamned bad idea; which should tell you something when I say that just letting him go is a worse idea. As in, as bad an idea as it would be to loose a group of U.S. soldiers in Jamaica with the sole purpose of killing or capturing this assclown as fast as possible in order to get home as fast as possible, it would be a worse idea for the fucking government of the country to concede defeat to the criminal elements!

Let the big boys talk, Chuckles.

You're sooooo clever.

[Alyeska]

I'm not buying it ShadowDragon. Take your lumps and move on.

[Korto]

Because it is a plausable soloution, taking U.S. combat troops and loaning them to the Jamaican government for the operation.

It's a fucking stupid idea, for both governments. From the US point of view, they'll be sending US troops into a complex environment where there's way too high a chance of taking casualties, to invade a bunch of poor and starving blacks, with a good chance of killing innocent civilians, an absolute certainty of killing someone who will be called an innocent civilian by the media later, to catch an accused drug baron who'll be replaced in days anyway. From the Jamaican point of view, they'll have to explain allowing a foreign power to send in troops to attack and kill their own civilians in their own city, and of course attacking your own loyalists with foreign troops isn't highly recommended as the best way to inspire loyalty.

[Phantasee]

For someone who claims it's a terrible idea that only Shep would suggest, he's been a pretty big cheerleader for it. He hasn't even offered any other ideas, just the one terrible one.

[Resinence]

He effectively has his own private army now.

This could be considered a national security threat.

Send in the army. And if Jamaica doesn't have an army, umm... Figure something out.

Indeed, it's not that hes "doing the governments job" he has essential become the government for the area he presides over. It will be difficult to apprehend such a powerful person, even if they did get a case of stupid and sent in US soldiers, it would not result in an easy apprehension but rather a bloodbath and descend into urban warfare.

I like how someone related it to a welfare state, by sending their kids to school and providing services etc he is essentially buying peoples loyalty and establishing his power base. This is exactly what real welfare is for, to ensure that the impoverished do not become discontent enough to spread discontent amongst the useful populace.

[JointStrikeFighter]

He effectively has his own private army now.

This could be considered a national security threat.

Send in the army. And if Jamaica doesn't have an army, umm... Figure something out.

Indeed, it's not that hes "doing the governments job" he has essential become the government for the area he presides over. It will be difficult to apprehend such a powerful person, even if they did get a case of stupid and sent in US soldiers, it would not result in an easy apprehension but rather a bloodbath and descend into urban warfare.

I like how someone related it to a welfare state, by sending their kids to school and providing services etc he is essentially buying peoples loyalty and establishing his power base. This is exactly what real welfare is for, to ensure that the impoverished do not become discontent enough to spread discontent amongst the useful populace.

Actually welfare has a real economic purpose in that all the money gets put back into the economy ANYWAY by spending and you don't have people earning no income. A welfare bum is paradoxically less of a drain to the economy than someone with no income what so ever

[Resinence]

Thats interesting and all but I was talking about the social impact of him providing services like a welfare state rather than the economic purpose of welfare. Though your point does make it interesting that many free market ideologists hate "welfare bums", guess they can't even apply that simple ideology uniformly

[xerex]

Because it is a plausable soloution, taking U.S. combat troops and loaning them to the Jamaican government for the operation.

It's a fucking stupid idea, for both governments. From the US point of view, they'll be sending US troops into a complex environment where there's way too high a chance of taking casualties, to invade a bunch of poor and starving blacks, with a good chance of killing innocent civilians, an absolute certainty of killing someone who will be called an innocent civilian by the media later, to catch an accused drug baron who'll be replaced in days anyway. From the Jamaican point of view, they'll have to explain allowing a foreign power to send in troops to attack and kill their own civilians in their own city, and of course attacking your own loyalists with foreign troops isn't highly recommended as the best way to inspire loyalty.

Jamaica would be more likely (if at all) to request UK or Canadian troops in any case. the Queen still is the Head of State of Jamaica as I recall.