Dune verse combat makes no sense

[Oskuro]

EDIT: I suppose it's irony that your own link oskuro references how ineffective this weapon was even in it's own limited context

My whole post was ironical. Maybe next time I'll drop a few smileys to make it clear.

[Bakustra]

I don't think there's a lack of industrialisation in the duneverse Bakustra. Geidi Prime is described as an industrial wasteland isn't it? Or at least that's always been the impression I've had of it. There are also mechanical and electrical devices in use, and someone has to build the spaceships and ornithopters and other vehicles and devices.

An interesting point of industrialization is where to we put it at. What little is revealed is that Dune has an extreme anathema to robotics and AI technologies. The only problem is we are only given that computers may not mimic man as a guideline, yet we can surmise some level of such given their architecture(The size of Paul's Palace is massive) and as you said their mechanical devices would not be possible without some level of computer power.

But on the flip side, we have a lot of musing about even things as small as artillery being scrapped because of needing the metal.

In the case of the artillery, I got the sense that Baron Harkonnen was blowing Rabban off. I don't know how seriously we can take that (though it's quite possible that spaceships are often bought from the Guild or Ix or Richese, potentially explaining the disparity).

[Shroom Man 777]

It would be awesome if ranged warfare was done with Predator disks. And, like, tiny rotor-propelled drones that can kill people with their rotorblades. Like manhacks from Half Life 2! FREMEN PROTECTION! Sandwormwatch!

[Stofsk]

EDIT: I suppose it's irony that your own link oskuro references how ineffective this weapon was even in it's own limited context

My whole post was ironical. Maybe next time I'll drop a few smileys to make it clear.

I'm sorry I didn't discern that meaning from your post initially. I rushposted in reply to you.

You're partially right- Baron Harkonnen muses that mechanized warfare is impossible because of the paucity of technically-educated workers, not because of the lack of industrialization (but we don't get a good look at Giedi Prime that I remember until Heretics), but the overall balance of society (and CHOAM products) is in favor of agriculture, barring exceptions like Ix and Richese.

I would need to read the book again to see if it refers to Giedi Prime being an industrialised shithole. It's certainly depicted like that in the film.

While you're right that agriculture is a large part of the economy in the Duneverse, I don't know how that agriculture is produced. If you have large scale farming of the sort we employ today, some level of industrialisation would be required. Obviously this varies from planet to planet, though even on Dune they use harvesters and carryalls.

An interesting point of industrialization is where to we put it at. What little is revealed is that Dune has an extreme anathema to robotics and AI technologies. The only problem is we are only given that computers may not mimic man as a guideline, yet we can surmise some level of such given their architecture(The size of Paul's Palace is massive) and as you said their mechanical devices would not be possible without some level of computer power.

But on the flip side, we have a lot of musing about even things as small as artillery being scrapped because of needing the metal.

Could that be the Baron just being a miser? After all he's not going to use that artillery again so if he doesn't scrap them they're going to waste space and money, and I believe he says something about how unbelievably expensive that whole jaunt was. They would be paying off the debt to the Spacing Guild for years given the expense.

[Dark Hellion]

IIRC the artillery is located on Arrakis which presumably has the shortage of metal. With the guild pricing the way it is at that time period it is probably a pretty big bitch to ship any large amount of material outside of specified products.

Really, the whole of the Dune universe as of the first book has been carefully manipulated over thousands of years by groups such as the Bene Gesserit and the Guild into a form of neo-feudalism to maintain their power and continue their projects. The book is about the collapse of this highly artificial structure.

[Stofsk]

IIRC the artillery is located on Arrakis which presumably has the shortage of metal. With the guild pricing the way it is at that time period it is probably a pretty big bitch to ship any large amount of material outside of specified products.

Yeah, the Baron mentions to Rabban how the cost of the strike force would take sixty years to repay assuming standard profits made by a fief on Arrakis.

Really, the whole of the Dune universe as of the first book has been carefully manipulated over thousands of years by groups such as the Bene Gesserit and the Guild into a form of neo-feudalism to maintain their power and continue their projects. The book is about the collapse of this highly artificial structure.

The Bene Gesserit didn't manipulate things to get the specific societal structure in the book, though they do manipulate events to go according to their plans. There's a line in the book IIRC from Reverend Mother Mohiam about how the Imperium is essentially a tripod, which is actually one of the most unstable systems you could have. The balance of power is split between CHOAM, the Guild, and the Landsraad if I'm remembering the quote right.

[Xon]

One thing to keep in mind is that Dune Navigators charged vastly higher rates for weapons and raw materials over civilian bulk goods. It isn't much of a strech to suggest that they would also charge crazy amounts for hardware with complex electronics?

I wouldn't be suprise the reason artillery isn't heavily used is it that is costs significantly more to ship the entire thing and the supply chain to build it than it would to actually build it locally from local materials.

[Sarevok]

How slow is the bolt? Because if it's so slow that it can penetrate the shield, it should be slow enough for the guy to... um... sidestep out of the line of fire.

Exact numbers in m / s for the threshold at which the shield begins blocking would be good. FYI a bolt fired at 30-40 m/s and using gyrojet technology could fly out to a kilmeter.With rapid fire they can turn anything approaching within a hundred meter or so into dead meat chunks. It would preferable to eviscerate a melee enemy at extreme rifle ranges but a dead enemy at mere fifty meters is still acceptable.

EDIT: by the way, idiot, there are dart-throwers in the book too - effectiveness depends on what shield setting is available and on relative velocities of the opponents.

And why is not there a primary handhold ranged weapon based around said darts ? Add a homing head, which should be trivial for space faring society, some self propulsion and you could snipe shield users from across a city.

The guy would need to be shieldless though, wouldn't he? Which would mean he would be vulnerable to a lasgun.

Why would you need to be shield less to use a flamethrower ? If the shields block exhaust gases than shield users would be dead in minutes from all the CO2 they exhale.

Gas and poisons are actually commonly used in Dune you twit.

I have been in riot police attacks dude. Tear gas is nasty and even third world fucks can flood street after street with white clouds of incapacitating. Why is not every military in Dune carrying at least non lethal gas weapons as standard loadout?

What the flying fuck are you on about? Who the fuck would use an exploding spear in melee combat?

Swords suck as a weapon of war. There is a reason why most ancient infantry never used swords as main weapons. If I poked you with a 20 feet stick with a bomb attached there is not a thing you can do before you and your shield generator go bye bye. A greek phalanx style formation of explosive sticks would pwn everything coming at them.

Because it wouldn't penetrate the shield. Only slow-moving objects can penetrate shields. It's actually stated in the book, 'the slow blade penetrates the shield' or something. The quote is like that. You can't even do fast blade movements through a shield.

You fire the wire at 0.001 m / s less than the speed at which shield block effect is initiated. Its not ideal compared to killing with a rifle but more than adequate for slaying retards with sharp metal things.

[Sarevok]

It would be awesome if ranged warfare was done with Predator disks. And, like, tiny rotor-propelled drones that can kill people with their rotorblades. Like manhacks from Half Life 2! FREMEN PROTECTION! Sandwormwatch!

You could crush an entire army of shielded idiots with a vehicle like Ash wtfpwning the skeleton assault force in Army of Darkness.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Does anyone have a clue on the canonity of the weapons and technologies presented in the "Dune 2000" and "Emperor: Battle for Dune" videogames? The plot is noncanon, but that might not mean the technologies presented there are. (Ensue Stark loling at the Emperor Worm).

[Raxmei]

Dune shields have variable settings, there is no exact number. Presumably there is a limit to how low you can go, but that limit is slower than the speed of the average sword strike.

[Terralthra]

The guy would need to be shieldless though, wouldn't he? Which would mean he would be vulnerable to a lasgun.

Why would you need to be shield less to use a flamethrower ? If the shields block exhaust gases than shield users would be dead in minutes from all the CO2 they exhale.

Gas and poisons are actually commonly used in Dune you twit.

I have been in riot police attacks dude. Tear gas is nasty and even third world fucks can flood street after street with white clouds of incapacitating. Why is not every military in Dune carrying at least non lethal gas weapons as standard loadout?

The answer to both of these questions is "shields allow gas diffusion, but they slow it significantly."

The gradual build-up of ozone from the shield itself and CO2 from the wearer is mentioned in Dune as (training) combat goes on in the first scene in which a shield is used.

This slow diffusion would also render gas attacks less effective, obviously.

[Raxmei]

This slow diffusion would also render gas attacks less effective, obviously.

In fact that becomes important not very far into the first book. A major character is exposed to a gas attack and only survives because his shield was on at the time.

[Feil]

You lot do realize that the flamethrowers project jets of liquid, not gas, don't you?

[Terralthra]

You lot do realize that the flamethrowers project jets of liquid, not gas, don't you?

1) We were talking about exhaust gases from the user breathing and tear gas as a weapon of war.

2) So, because it repels solid objects, slows the diffusion of (read: repels) gases, your conclusion about its effects on liquids are...what, exactly?

[Oskuro]

Does anyone have a clue on the canonity of the weapons and technologies presented in the "Dune 2000" and "Emperor: Battle for Dune" videogames? The plot is noncanon, but that might not mean the technologies presented there are. (Ensue Stark loling at the Emperor Worm).

They are based on canon materials, but deviate drastically to allow for an RTS.

I mean, the Atreides in E:BfD have giant mecha, wile the Harkonned cruise around in giant buzzsaws.

[Stofsk]

How slow is the bolt? Because if it's so slow that it can penetrate the shield, it should be slow enough for the guy to... um... sidestep out of the line of fire.

Exact numbers in m / s for the threshold at which the shield begins blocking would be good. FYI a bolt fired at 30-40 m/s and using gyrojet technology could fly out to a kilmeter.With rapid fire they can turn anything approaching within a hundred meter or so into dead meat chunks. It would preferable to eviscerate a melee enemy at extreme rifle ranges but a dead enemy at mere fifty meters is still acceptable.

At the end of the book it has a glossary of terms at the end of it. Under 'Shield, defensive' Herbert writes it as 6-9 centimetres per second. Your bolt would bounce off and be harmless to a shielded opponent. It would be worse than useless if there's any collateral damage. The conventions and laws of the Duneverse prohibit the kind of conflicts that usually result in large civilian casualties. Assassinations and surgical-style operations are the norm; the strike against House Atreides was the largest attack in recent history, at least that is what is implied, and could only occur with cooperation from the Emperor (though his complicity was kept secret). Baron Harkonnen remarks the cost of transport was so exhorbiant that it would take a fief on Arrakis six decades to pay off the debt to the Spacing Guild.

EDIT: by the way, idiot, there are dart-throwers in the book too - effectiveness depends on what shield setting is available and on relative velocities of the opponents.

And why is not there a primary handhold ranged weapon based around said darts ?

There are - the dart-throwers are called 'stunners' and are projectile weapons. Their effectiveness against shielded opponents is difficult to measure, since it depends on the shield settings as well as relative velocities of each opponent. Generally speaking I can't see them being terribly effective unless they're used against unshielded targets - and the two times I recall them being used in the books effectively was exactly that, Thufir Hawat was taken by surprised and captured because he was on the sand and couldn't use his shield, and Duke Leto Atreides was ambushed at the start of the strike against his House. Duncan Idaho's last stand shows him holding back a whole platoon of Sardaukar who were chopping at him futilely with bladed weapons and shooting him at least once with a stunner, and the dart bouncing off his shield, but sheer numbers overwhelmed him.

Add a homing head, which should be trivial for space faring society, some self propulsion and you could snipe shield users from across a city.

They do have homing projectiles - hunter-seekers are tools of assassination and they're used early in the book in an attempt on Paul's life. I doubt they're the only such device in the Duneverse. Have you actually read the book?

The guy would need to be shieldless though, wouldn't he? Which would mean he would be vulnerable to a lasgun.

Why would you need to be shield less to use a flamethrower ? If the shields block exhaust gases than shield users would be dead in minutes from all the CO2 they exhale.

Gas and poisons are actually commonly used in Dune you twit.

I have been in riot police attacks dude. Tear gas is nasty and even third world fucks can flood street after street with white clouds of incapacitating. Why is not every military in Dune carrying at least non lethal gas weapons as standard loadout?

Terraltha and Raxmei have provided answers to both these questions. But again, your whole objection is totally baseless regardless, since gas attacks, poisons, and even flamers are all used throughout the book in different circumstances: the first two in assassination attempts, the last as an act of desperation by the Sardaukar against a Fremen counter-attack. Once again, I have to ask if you even read the book.

What the flying fuck are you on about? Who the fuck would use an exploding spear in melee combat?

Swords suck as a weapon of war.

Oh really. You know what weapons would suck even worse? Exploding spears.

There is a reason why most ancient infantry never used swords as main weapons. If I poked you with a 20 feet stick with a bomb attached there is not a thing you can do before you and your shield generator go bye bye. A greek phalanx style formation of explosive sticks would pwn everything coming at them.

Yeah, including themselves. If they're shielded, their exploding sticks wouldn't work.

Because it wouldn't penetrate the shield. Only slow-moving objects can penetrate shields. It's actually stated in the book, 'the slow blade penetrates the shield' or something. The quote is like that. You can't even do fast blade movements through a shield.

You fire the wire at 0.001 m / s less than the speed at which shield block effect is initiated. Its not ideal compared to killing with a rifle but more than adequate for slaying retards with sharp metal things.

Right because if you have shield technology that specifically repels fast moving objects like bullets, the effects of explosives and cause a catastrophic MAD effect when hit by a lasgun, you'd be retarded to resort to melee weapons. I already pointed out the stunner which is a projectile weapon that has so-so effectiveness in Duneverse fights; even a specifically designed slow-moving dart fired from a gun hasn't got a perfect ability to penetrate a shield.

[Stofsk]

Does anyone have a clue on the canonity of the weapons and technologies presented in the "Dune 2000" and "Emperor: Battle for Dune" videogames? The plot is noncanon, but that might not mean the technologies presented there are. (Ensue Stark loling at the Emperor Worm).

The short answer is that any relationship Dune has with the video games you refer to is similar to the relationship chalk has with cheese.

[Gaidin]

1. Why not make a bolter type weapon ? It can be like a modern automatic weapon but instead of bullets fires slow moving explosive bolts. Upon penetrating the shields the bolt explodes and turns the shield user into delicious chunky meat.

They have weapons that do this. The only ones I remember are stun weapons, but they do have firearms that go through the shields.

2. What about flamethrowers ? Dune shields dont block gases at all so a flamethrower will ignore a shield as if it is not even there. Shield users need to get close to stab attack. They are just begging to get roasted alive by a good flamethrower.

They've got these two. At least I think the Sardaukar do. Or was that sheer luck of using the blast of an engine to kill Fremen a one time thing? I'm not sure they ever use them on shielded enemies if they ever issued them though.

3. What about chemical gas for that matter ? Even ignoring nasty military stuff just breaking out Riot police tear gas would leave the finest soldiers in Dune verse incapacitated in pain.

Used by the doctor and Leto to try to kill the baron Harkonnen. His personal shield slows it just enough that he can get out of the room before the gas kills him.

4. If you do wanna melee why use a knife ? Why not a long spear with a remotely triggered bomb attached ? You poke a dude with the stick and press the detonate button. No 1337 sword skills needed at all to wtfpwn the finest swordsmen there is.

From what I remember the in universe reasoning is the knife allows for finer control of the speed of the weapon. Whether that's legitimate or not, I'm not sure.

5. How about zapping them with a taser weapon ? Its just a wire shot from a pistol. A properly built electrical weapon shooting conducting wires will kill Duneverses best of the best with gruesome effectiveness.

See answer to 1.

[Stark]

I just can't understand how he keeps saying spears with bombs on would 'pwn' shield wearers. If they don't penetrate the shield they'll do nothing, and to penetrate the shield they need to be moving really slow... so you don't need a bomb. You just need specialised slow combat arts, just like the Dune guys already have.

What is his point with the damn spears? Is he really saying a sword person is 100% useless against a spear person?

[Gaidin]

Right because if you have shield technology that specifically repels fast moving objects like bullets, the effects of explosives and cause a catastrophic MAD effect when hit by a lasgun, you'd be retarded to resort to melee weapons. I already pointed out the stunner which is a projectile weapon that has so-so effectiveness in Duneverse fights; even a specifically designed slow-moving dart fired from a gun hasn't got a perfect ability to penetrate a shield.

Now that I think about it, bombs(not lasguns or nukes) might actually be useful for assassination against shielded targets. A sandstorm will overload the shield and basically shut it down, couldn't a bomb do the same? The only downside, as far as the society goes, is the collateral damage.

[Terralthra]

Add a homing head, which should be trivial for space faring society, some self propulsion and you could snipe shield users from across a city.

They do have homing projectiles - hunter-seekers are tools of assassination and they're used early in the book in an attempt on Paul's life. I doubt they're the only such device in the Duneverse. Have you actually read the book?

Technically, the Hunter-Seeker wasn't homing, it was remote-piloted. Self-guided projectiles would probably violate the O.C. Bible.

[Stofsk]

1. Why not make a bolter type weapon ? It can be like a modern automatic weapon but instead of bullets fires slow moving explosive bolts. Upon penetrating the shields the bolt explodes and turns the shield user into delicious chunky meat.

They have weapons that do this. The only ones I remember are stun weapons, but they do have firearms that go through the shields.

No they don't. You might be misremembering how the Baron employs artillery with a specific strategy in mind. He correctly anticipated that the Atreides troops would withdraw into caves in the surrounding mountains around the capital of Arakeen. He used the artillery to trap them in the caves where they had no chance of escape.

They've got these two. At least I think the Sardaukar do. Or was that sheer luck of using the blast of an engine to kill Fremen a one time thing? I'm not sure they ever use them on shielded enemies if they ever issued them though.

A desperation tactic used by Sardaukar who were repelling a Fremen counter-attack after they raided Sietch Tabr. They weren't expecting a ferocious level of resistance and much of their raiding force was wiped out, only one carrier managed to take off and only because they turned on attitudinal jets as improvised flame-throwers.

From what I remember the in universe reasoning is the knife allows for finer control of the speed of the weapon. Whether that's legitimate or not, I'm not sure.

That sounds reasonable, though it should be noted that swords and polearms are used as well.

Now that I think about it, bombs(not lasguns or nukes) might actually be useful for assassination against shielded targets. A sandstorm will overload the shield and basically shut it down, couldn't a bomb do the same? The only downside, as far as the society goes, is the collateral damage.

The glossary says that only a 'shire-sized electrical field' can short it out; I'm not sure but would a sandstorm generate a lot of static electricity? I don't think a bomb would be that effective, although you could for instance use a bomb on the surrounding environment which can be an indirect way of dealing with someone that's shielded. Like burying the Atreides troopers alive through cave-ins brought about by artillery fire. Also, like you said, the collateral damage is probably the overriding concern. It's one of the reasons why large-scale warfare is virtually unheard of, and the strike against House Atreides was essentially unprecedented.

[Stofsk]

Technically, the Hunter-Seeker wasn't homing, it was remote-piloted. Self-guided projectiles would probably violate the O.C. Bible.

I stand corrected.

[Gaidin]

No they don't. You might be misremembering how the Baron employs artillery with a specific strategy in mind. He correctly anticipated that the Atreides troops would withdraw into caves in the surrounding mountains around the capital of Arakeen. He used the artillery to trap them in the caves where they had no chance of escape.

Nah I don't mean the artillery, I just could've sworn the fremen had some sort of stun gun thing that fired slow enough to get past shields at least part of the time. Could just be those darts again though. I haven't read it in a while.