Dune verse combat makes no sense

[Terralthra]

No they don't. You might be misremembering how the Baron employs artillery with a specific strategy in mind. He correctly anticipated that the Atreides troops would withdraw into caves in the surrounding mountains around the capital of Arakeen. He used the artillery to trap them in the caves where they had no chance of escape.

Nah I don't mean the artillery, I just could've sworn the fremen had some sort of stun gun thing that fired slow enough to get past shields at least part of the time. Could just be those darts again though. I haven't read it in a while.

The Freman had dartguns that fired relatively fast, since shields couldn't be used in the desert. They attract sandworms.

[Kuroji]

They don't just attract sandworms, they drive them batshit insane.

If you want a weapon that'll penetrate a shield, your best bet is a flamethrower. Sure, the burning napalm will hit the shield faster than it would take for it to penetrate, but that'll stop its motion and enough will get through for the user to die a painful death. Other than that and gas weapons, however, shields are pretty effective, and the Great Convention bans shooting shields with a lasgun on penalty of all the other great houses coming to your planet and nuking it until it cracks.

Of course, the catch here is that your soldiers would have to have their shields off while they used the flamethrowers -- shields tend to encompass the user and anything they're wearing, meaning shooting a firearm from inside a shield would also be quite suicidal.

[Stofsk]

As far as the Great Convention is concerned, lasguns vs shields doesn't seem to apply or is less of an issue. The Harkonnens smuggled lasguns onto Arrakis which Hawat surmised would be used against shields, necessitating Paul and Jessica to be sequestered in an underground bunker that night. Duncan Idaho also left behind a 'surprise' for pursuing forces who were destroyed by using a lasgun on their 'thopter after they landed.

[Ghost Rider]

As far as the Great Convention is concerned, lasguns vs shields doesn't seem to apply or is less of an issue. The Harkonnens smuggled lasguns onto Arrakis which Hawat surmised would be used against shields, necessitating Paul and Jessica to be sequestered in an underground bunker that night. Duncan Idaho also left behind a 'surprise' for pursuing forces who were destroyed by using a lasgun on their 'thopter after they landed.

Hell, the funniest part is that Great Convention is more or less something to get debated and is really a lot of talk.

Take when Paul blows a hole into the Shield Wall, the Emperor going apeshit and Paul basically goes "Fuck off, old man. No one will press a button unless they are absolutely sure that I hit any human with atomics.". With Lasguns vs shields mimics something similar to atomic explosion, the convention is only for atomics and atomics alone.

Strangely, the series Dune never really mentions what atomics are beyond they are bombs, and something other.

[Gaidin]

Other than that and gas weapons, however, shields are pretty effective, and the Great Convention bans shooting shields with a lasgun on penalty of all the other great houses coming to your planet and nuking it until it cracks.

To be more specific on what Stofsk said, they're not banned, though one could make a case that they are by proxy(though not officially). It's generally avoided mostly because people might think it was an atomic, and proving it wasn't would be difficult.

[Bilbo]

No they don't. You might be misremembering how the Baron employs artillery with a specific strategy in mind. He correctly anticipated that the Atreides troops would withdraw into caves in the surrounding mountains around the capital of Arakeen. He used the artillery to trap them in the caves where they had no chance of escape.

Nah I don't mean the artillery, I just could've sworn the fremen had some sort of stun gun thing that fired slow enough to get past shields at least part of the time. Could just be those darts again though. I haven't read it in a while.

In the origional Dune movie there is a scene where Duncan Idaho is killed by a Sardukar who fires some sort of projectile weapon that burrows right through his shield and hits him in the forehead. Maybe that is what you are remembering.

[Imperial Overlord]

No they don't. You might be misremembering how the Baron employs artillery with a specific strategy in mind. He correctly anticipated that the Atreides troops would withdraw into caves in the surrounding mountains around the capital of Arakeen. He used the artillery to trap them in the caves where they had no chance of escape.

Nah I don't mean the artillery, I just could've sworn the fremen had some sort of stun gun thing that fired slow enough to get past shields at least part of the time. Could just be those darts again though. I haven't read it in a while.

In the origional Dune movie there is a scene where Duncan Idaho is killed by a Sardukar who fires some sort of projectile weapon that burrows right through his shield and hits him in the forehead. Maybe that is what you are remembering.

There are several dart weapons (usually poisoned or drugged) that are used in the Dune universe because the darts have a chance of penetrating a shield (because they aren't that fast).

[Stofsk]

Dune the novel written by Frank Herbet>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>David Lynch's insanity-inspired adaptation.

At least in the movie Duncan Idaho's last stand is closer in spirit to the book than the miniseries. Lynch got that part right. But both the film and the miniseries never got the rest of that scene right.

[Gaidin]

In the origional Dune movie there is a scene where Duncan Idaho is killed by a Sardukar who fires some sort of projectile weapon that burrows right through his shield and hits him in the forehead. Maybe that is what you are remembering.

Believe me, if I'm referencing a movie I haven't seen in 15 years over a book, you'll know.

[Gil Hamilton]

Wow, you must be tremendously clever, pointing out something people have talked about since Frank Herbert penned the book in the sixties. And you are still behind the times!

I never understood the in universe justification for stabbity stabbity warfare given enormous loopholes the shield technology presents. If you make a shield vulnerable to a weapon moved by a muscle powered arm you also make it exposed to wide variety of fucking ridiculously effective ranged attacks.Dune shields are supposed to stop fast moving objects. But they allow objects at speeds like those attained by humans limbs through. They also let air through as shield users are not choking to death. So...

That's a negative, there. Full shields do significantly slow gas exchange and even mute and flatten sound. In fact, its explicitly described that they start filling up with ozone the moment you turn them on and thus normally require internal support. Further, they are also tunable such that they can have extremely low penetration velocities. Most blows made by people are deflected by shields, which is why you've got to slowly insert the knife through the shield. Paul says it himself when he's sparring with Gurney Halleck "Attack has the sole purpose of tricking the opponent into a misstep, setting him up for the attack sinister. The shield turns the fast blow, admits the slow kindjal!"

For homework, do a velocity calculation on a gas molecule and compare it to the figure of 6 to 9 centimeters per second. Note the first time shields are introduced:
"Across the room they fought - thrust and parry, feint and counterfeint. The air within their shield bubbles grew stale from the demands on it that the slow interchange along the barrier edges could not replenish. With each new shield contact, the smell of ozone grew stronger."
Things of interest. There is only gas exchange along the edges of the shield, not through the shield itself. Also remember that these were just personal protection shields for nobles for sparring, not full shields that soldiers wear.

1. Why not make a bolter type weapon ? It can be like a modern automatic weapon but instead of bullets fires slow moving explosive bolts. Upon penetrating the shields the bolt explodes and turns the shield user into delicious chunky meat.

Like the slow pellet weapons or maula pistols described in the books?

2. What about flamethrowers ? Dune shields dont block gases at all so a flamethrower will ignore a shield as if it is not even there. Shield users need to get close to stab attack. They are just begging to get roasted alive by a good flamethrower.

Flamethrowers are shitty weapons and shield absolutely do block gas exchange. They'd be useless against explosives and chemical weapons, both explicitly made useless by shields and brought back by the Harkonnens when they smashed House Atreides due to Arrakis' hostile environment making shields useless.

3. What about chemical gas for that matter ? Even ignoring nasty military stuff just breaking out Riot police tear gas would leave the finest soldiers in Dune verse incapacitated in pain.

Blocked by shields.

4. If you do wanna melee why use a knife ? Why not a long spear with a remotely triggered bomb attached ? You poke a dude with the stick and press the detonate button. No 1337 sword skills needed at all to wtfpwn the finest swordsmen there is.

As though swordsmen can't deflect a spearhead, particularly since you have to slowly ease it into the shield. Besides, if you've stabbed the swordsman with a spear, why are you bothering with the bomb?

5. How about zapping them with a taser weapon ? Its just a wire shot from a pistol. A properly built electrical weapon shooting conducting wires will kill Duneverses best of the best with gruesome effectiveness.

You mean like those slow pellet stunners they mention REPEATEDLY in the books?

[Gil Hamilton]

Incidentally on shields and poison gas:

The Baron Harkonnen escapes death this way.

"He could analyze it now. His shield had been activated, set low but still enough to slow molecular interchange across the field barrier. And he had been pushing himself away from the table... that and Piter's shocked gasp which had brought the guard captain darting forward into his own doom.

Chance and the warning in a dying man's gasp - these had saved him."

Here's what happened. Yueh had put a false tooth in Leto Atreides mouth after drugging him, because he knew that Leto would be brought to the Baron. This false tooth contained a capsule the size and shape of a tooth's nerve which was full of poison gas. This poison gas when Leto breathed out instantly killed the mentat Piter and the guard captain, but the shield slowed molecular interchange by such a degree that the Baron was completely unharmed by it, despite its clear lethality.

[Thanas]

You're partially right- Baron Harkonnen muses that mechanized warfare is impossible because of the paucity of technically-educated workers, not because of the lack of industrialization (but we don't get a good look at Giedi Prime that I remember until Heretics), but the overall balance of society (and CHOAM products) is in favor of agriculture, barring exceptions like Ix and Richese.

I would need to read the book again to see if it refers to Giedi Prime being an industrialised shithole. It's certainly depicted like that in the film.

Giedi Prime is referenced as having worker's quarters and chemical and toxic waste dumps, so it seems to reference to a highly industrialized world.

While you're right that agriculture is a large part of the economy in the Duneverse, I don't know how that agriculture is produced. If you have large scale farming of the sort we employ today, some level of industrialisation would be required. Obviously this varies from planet to planet, though even on Dune they use harvesters and carryalls.

Yes. However note that one of the primary exports of Caladan is described as being horses. They might be status symbols, but still.

Could that be the Baron just being a miser? After all he's not going to use that artillery again so if he doesn't scrap them they're going to waste space and money, and I believe he says something about how unbelievably expensive that whole jaunt was. They would be paying off the debt to the Spacing Guild for years given the expense.

Yes. However, artillery could just easily be stored somewhere, so I doubt they would be that costly.

And we also have the spaceships for high technology.

That said, given how Herbert wanted to portray the fall of the Sassanid Empire (they even use the same titles) to the Arab hordes, that is both the explanation and the major failing of Dune. It is not a science-fiction story per se, it is a retelling of the legend of Mohammed and the Caliphs dressed up in science-fiction setting. Everything is taken from that period in time.

[Chris OFarrell]

Of course, if Shields were as Uber as they are supposed to be, then the Freemen should have been utterly rapped when they launched their Jhiad against the rest of the Empire, because while shields can't be used on Dune, offworld there is no problem, and the Freemen simply wouldn't know how to deal with them.

But of course that says nothing of all the OTHER weapons that could be brought against the Freeman from offworld, or the fact that they would be outnumbered horribly. Honestly, the Jhaid would have made a LOT more sense if it was said that 95% of the Empire fell into line because the Guild threatened to cut off ALL access to their worlds, and only a small number of completly self suffecient worlds held by Minor houses or something, actually said 'screw you' and required Freeman 'convincing'.

Also, I would like to think that at some point in the future, IX actually developed something like that shield penetrating gun we see in the Lynch movie, hence shield technology vanishing in the post Leto-II novels.

Franky, on Dune, I never understood why the hell the Freeman didn't get AK47's or something equally low tech but utterly deadly issued as a standard issue weapon, given the lack of shields on planet. Instead they got stupid spring loaded dart guns of all things to use! And of course their uber Crysknives...

They at least -eventually- started using RPGs at least to a limited extent, but even just some bloody basic automatic weapons would have made them far more deadly.

Hell, if the Harkonnens had those types of weapons, they would have been far better able to deal with Freeman attacks!

Of course, there are a LOT of things the Harkonnens could have done differently, so that hardly counts.

[Thanas]

Of course, if Shields were as Uber as they are supposed to be, then the Freemen should have been utterly rapped when they launched their Jhiad against the rest of the Empire, because while shields can't be used on Dune, offworld there is no problem, and the Freemen simply wouldn't know how to deal with them.

But of course that says nothing of all the OTHER weapons that could be brought against the Freeman from offworld, or the fact that they would be outnumbered horribly. Honestly, the Jhaid would have made a LOT more sense if it was said that 95% of the Empire fell into line because the Guild threatened to cut off ALL access to their worlds, and only a small number of completly self suffecient worlds held by Minor houses or something, actually said 'screw you' and required Freeman 'convincing'.

The stupid in-universe explanation I can think of is: It is mentioned that the Sardaukar roughly match the forces of every other house due to their great skill. It is said the Fremen have even better skills at fighting than the Sardaukar (asinine, but let's roll with it). Thus, with the Sardaukars being disbanded, there is nothing to stop the Fremen. Also, with the help of the spacing guild, the Fremen can use local superiority to their hearts content while the other noble houses cannot concentrate.

However, this scenario is still stupid for a number of reasons:
a) it is extremely unlikely that uber fremen will be able to replace the losses of a galactic campaign (Herbert pays lip service to that by mentioning numerous casualties, but still, the arab conquest did not happen instantaneously but in waves)
b) Why is the spacing guild willing to go by that?
c) Desert dwellers being more powerful than painstakingly trained soldiers is also stupid. I can buy a local advantage due to numbers, but the rest is pretty idiotic. Herbert seems to have forgotten that the arabs were the best-equipped and best-trained forces of their day.

Hell, if the Harkonnens had those types of weapons, they would have been far better able to deal with Freeman attacks!

Of course, there are a LOT of things the Harkonnens could have done differently, so that hardly counts.

There are also a lot of things the Sardaukars could have used to greatly delay the Fremen attack. Heck, a secondary line of defence or air power is apparently unknown to them. Yeah, I know, low-tech and all that, but even copters dropping bombs would easily be doable and potentially have devestated the stupid mass charge at the end of the book.

[Korto]

(a) No idea. Related to (c)

(b) is the only one with a decent explanation. With their capture of Arakis, Paul and the Fremen owned the spice (and forced the Guild to admit that it was within Paul's power to destroy the spice. Forever). You own the spice, you own the Spacer's Guild.

(c) was explained as being because of their harsh environment and constantly being hunted by Harkonens; it had a 'survival of the fittest' effect, thereby making the Fremen elite troops. Make of that what you will, but I would think for "destructive testing" to have a real uplift effect, losses would be quite large, and you certainly wouldn't have enough people left to over-run a galaxy.

[Marcus Aurelius]

c) Desert dwellers being more powerful than painstakingly trained soldiers is also stupid. I can buy a local advantage due to numbers, but the rest is pretty idiotic. Herbert seems to have forgotten that the arabs were the best-equipped and best-trained forces of their day.

The military side of the Dune novels is, let's face it, nothing more than über-warrior wankery. You basically have the Sardaukar, who live their whole lives off the sweat on horses' ass and train rigorously, against the Fremen, who live their whole lives off the sweat on their own ass and achieve military proficiency "naturally" through clan wars and such. It is also hinted that the Sardaukar have gone soft of lately, because they have attained so vital position in the empire that they no longer have to fight for survival all the time on their very character forming home world; yet another sign of tougher than nails super soldier syndrome. It's just like Conan who became the greatest warrior ever since his childhood and youth was so fucking tough.

[Serafina]

c) Desert dwellers being more powerful than painstakingly trained soldiers is also stupid. I can buy a local advantage due to numbers, but the rest is pretty idiotic. Herbert seems to have forgotten that the arabs were the best-equipped and best-trained forces of their day.

The military side of the Dune novels is, let's face it, nothing more than über-warrior wankery. You basically have the Sardaukar, who live their whole lives off the sweat on horses' ass and train rigorously, against the Fremen, who live their whole lives off the sweat on their own ass and achieve military proficiency "naturally" through clan wars and such. It is also hinted that the Sardaukar have gone soft of lately, because they have attained so vital position in the empire that they no longer have to fight for survival all the time on their very character forming home world; yet another sign of tougher than nails super soldier syndrome. It's just like Conan who became the greatest warrior ever since his childhood and youth was so fucking tough.

And it also totally ignores that being a good warrior doesn't make you a good soldier.
There's simply more to it than being a good individual fighter, and modern infantry tactics do not "come naturally" just because you fought a couple of tribal skirmishes.

[Gaidin]

Franky, on Dune, I never understood why the hell the Freeman didn't get AK47's or something equally low tech but utterly deadly issued as a standard issue weapon, given the lack of shields on planet. Instead they got stupid spring loaded dart guns of all things to use! And of course their uber Crysknives...

Because they were still dealing with the shields, and when they weren't they were good enough anyway that it was a moot point. In the major cities shields were still commonplace, as the worms were out in the desert where the harvesting was done.

[Thanas]

(c) was explained as being because of their harsh environment and constantly being hunted by Harkonens; it had a 'survival of the fittest' effect, thereby making the Fremen elite troops. Make of that what you will, but I would think for "destructive testing" to have a real uplift effect, losses would be quite large, and you certainly wouldn't have enough people left to over-run a galaxy.

c) Desert dwellers being more powerful than painstakingly trained soldiers is also stupid. I can buy a local advantage due to numbers, but the rest is pretty idiotic. Herbert seems to have forgotten that the arabs were the best-equipped and best-trained forces of their day.

The military side of the Dune novels is, let's face it, nothing more than über-warrior wankery. You basically have the Sardaukar, who live their whole lives off the sweat on horses' ass and train rigorously, against the Fremen, who live their whole lives off the sweat on their own ass and achieve military proficiency "naturally" through clan wars and such. It is also hinted that the Sardaukar have gone soft of lately, because they have attained so vital position in the empire that they no longer have to fight for survival all the time on their very character forming home world; yet another sign of tougher than nails super soldier syndrome. It's just like Conan who became the greatest warrior ever since his childhood and youth was so fucking tough.

In reply to both - I get that being hunted consistently makes one better at guerilla tactics etc. But they were fighting a large-scale battle against various legions. Basically, I very much doubt that guerilla fighting allows one to plan the logistics and amass a force equal to several tens of thousands of people (iirc a sardaukar legion is 30.000 men and the Emperor brought six with them). To do that and not to be noticed when your enemy has control of space and air is pretty much impossible, especially not when your primary mode of transportation is a gigantic worm that leaves quite a trail.

[Crom]

c) Desert dwellers being more powerful than painstakingly trained soldiers is also stupid. I can buy a local advantage due to numbers, but the rest is pretty idiotic. Herbert seems to have forgotten that the arabs were the best-equipped and best-trained forces of their day.

A minor nitpick, but weren't the Fremen trained by Paul & Jessica in Bene Gesserit super powers and the training Paul must certainly have observed from watching his father train his own soldiers? So isn't it possible that they were the best trained force of their day?

[Ghost Rider]

c) Desert dwellers being more powerful than painstakingly trained soldiers is also stupid. I can buy a local advantage due to numbers, but the rest is pretty idiotic. Herbert seems to have forgotten that the arabs were the best-equipped and best-trained forces of their day.

A minor nitpick, but weren't the Fremen trained by Paul & Jessica in Bene Gesserit super powers and the training Paul must certainly have observed from watching his father train his own soldiers? So isn't it possible that they were the best trained force of their day?

A bit, but not much in what they called the weirding way. But they were considered a threat to the Sardukar before, and in fact even the Harkonnens silenced any rumors that the Fremen were killing the Sardukar in any number.

[Ghost Rider]

The Sardukar were said to be feared based only on reputation, not an skill. They were good in the past, and people started fearing them. Then, they weren't so good any more, but people still feared them from the past, so no one messed with them. Thus, the extent of their suck never really got out.

In short, the Fedayken beating them isn't necessarily saying "zomfg fremen are badass", but more like "the Emperor is overrated".

IIRC, this was explored in one of the appendixes in the book.

Though in universe they were noted to be good enough by a variety of reasonable sources to kick the shit out of regular armies. In fact it's the primary reason Shaddam wanted Leto dead. He had an army that was small but as good if not a little better then the Sardukar. Even Paul notes, even in the company of Kynes that it is the combined forces of the Landsraad against the Emperor that holds the balance.

So their reputation was inflated, it wasn't as if any singular lord could take on the Emperor.

[Terralthra]

There are also a lot of things the Sardaukars could have used to greatly delay the Fremen attack. Heck, a secondary line of defence or air power is apparently unknown to them. Yeah, I know, low-tech and all that, but even copters dropping bombs would easily be doable and potentially have devestated the stupid mass charge at the end of the book.

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

[Serafina]

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

I would have been usefull for attacking them while they gathered, which is virtually inevitable for a army of that size.

[Stofsk]

The Fremen nuked the Shield Wall and attacked under the cover of the biggest sandstorm in living memory. Air power was not exactly on the menu.

I would have been usefull for attacking them while they gathered, which is virtually inevitable for a army of that size.

The Fremen are quite able to take out aircraft with rockets. Paul and Stilgar and a troop of Fremen do exactly that to a smuggler operation which happened to have been lead by Gurney Halleck. Also, the Fremen massing their forces likely would have occurred without anyone noticing, simply because there aren't air patrols or spotters and the Guild gets bribed with massive spice payments by the Fremen to not put satellites in orbit.

Also Stilgar comments on how Fremen must work together when he chews out Paul on his sandrider initiation. They're not warrior-wanked, but rather commando or guerrilla wanked. It just so happens that Fremen are tough fighters and well adept at personal, one-on-one combat, but on the battlefield they work as a team.