nBSG Cylons vs 40K Space Marines (Non-Chaos)

[fgalkin]

Huh? Just how are lasguns "spitballs on the battlefield" in Abnett's work, when they do things like penetrate Chaos marine armor in the Ghosts novels?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Alas it seems I can not belittle the omnipresent lasgun ...
'ts an uphill battle but in this I shall never flinch!
(They are of the same level of a frigging grot handgun. In rogue trader I think there was an option of buying boltguns for guardsmen. Why? Why are the Old Ones so cruel to take my chance away of fielding the largest possible infantry army with the most heavy hitting guns before I even started?)

Are you going to answer the question or not?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Aaron]

Alas it seems I can not belittle the omnipresent lasgun ...
'ts an uphill battle but in this I shall never flinch!
(They are of the same level of a frigging grot handgun. In rogue trader I think there was an option of buying boltguns for guardsmen. Why? Why are the Old Ones so cruel to take my chance away of fielding the largest possible infantry army with the most heavy hitting guns before I even started?)

Look boy, I don't like the lasgun either but it is quite effective in the setting.

[Serafina]

Is it a bad sign if I would not disagree?
Because I sincerely think you may be right.

Actually, that would be a GOOD sign.
Just realize that around here, you will have to put a lot more work in your debating. Don't make claims just because you think they are right - actually check the available evidence. If you lack evidence for something, say so (like: "i think they might be better due to X, but i am not sure - any ideas?".

What range do Warhammer sensors have?

At least across a solar system (they have the ability to detect ships at the other side of a solar system IIRC).
That might however be due to either deceting their warp engine, or based on psykers.
The first would not be applicable, while the second would work just fine.

Onboard ship sensors in EVE have at least a 12 AU range
Observator Deep Space Probe I - 1000 au range, 1 point sensor strength
Ferret Scanner Probe I - 40 au range, 2.5 points sensor strength.
Spook Scanner Probe I - 20 au range, 5 points sensor strength.

You can apply the AU-ranges, since EVE actually has quite a good scale.
The sensor strenght points however are a pure game term and are therefore nearly useless. You can use them to roughly compare the stenght of various EVE-sensors (Sensor X is stronger than sensor Y etc.), but that's about it.

I do not know how to calculate the energy output so ... I am at a loss if it can waste a warhammer ship, but it may help provide some level of comparative firepower

Actually, no. You can't get any good calculation out of it, since it is a game mechanic. It's strenght is purely based on game balance.
If you insist, you could take a ship that would be destroyed by it, take it's lenght (assuming that the ships are to scale) and assume it's made out of iron and either shattered or vaporized by the beam.
That gives you a veery shobby lower limit (read "can't be weaker than") - but that is still purely based on game information and thus useless.

So, except in a setting especially created by the author (Dan Abnett), they remain the spitballs on the battlefield of the 41st millennium

If the enemy uses slug throwers then the Guard is policing for they are usualy the local population, aren't they?
I would consider this more of a insurgency/police action. So … on the battlefield , as on the table top they remain …

Okay, let's get this straight.
Lasguns are at least as strong as modern assault rifles. Generally, you can assume that they are at least as good as one.
They are also about as good as 40K ballisitc weapons - the basic MKIII pattern, that is.
But they are ALSO canonically capable of blowing off limbs with single hits after penetrating a concrete wall. That's pretty impressive, especially for an energy weapon.

DO NOT use tabletop stats. Tabletop stats do not represent the 40K-universe very well - they are highly deformed for game balance. At best, you can determine very rough comparative statements (i.e. "vehicle X has a tougher front armor than Y" or "weapon A has more range than B") - but you won't get any numbers from it.

Overall, the Lasgun is a pretty impressive weapon.
It's very lethal to human beings, has a high ammo capacity, it's ammo is easily replenishable (just plug the energy cell in somewhere), it is easy to manufacture and maintain, is very robust and features good accuracy, range and RoF.

Calling it a "flashlight" or "spitballs" is just ignorant and shows that you have never read any 40K books featuring it.

[Terralthra]

Though at that point they're at least within shouting distance. What's damning is the fact that this kinetic impact capacity is never used, even though a single hit from a kinetic-impact impeller drive missile would gut any Honorverse ship with a fraction of the missile capacity it takes to bring the thing down with laser heads. They don't even try, not even when they don't have to worry about the wedge getting in the way. I don't think this is a coincidence.

This is explained in implications during On Basilisk Station and In Enemy Hands. The impeller wedge has a massive spacial distortion effect on the volume contained within it and near it. If the wedges intersect (or even get really really close to intersecting), the stronger wedge will blow out the weaker (as Honor did with HMS Fearless to the Havenite courier ship at the beginning of the climactic battle in OBS. Most ships (including pinnaces, for example) have safety measures that prevent them from starting their wedge while inside another ship's mass or wedge, as merely turning it on can destroy both vessels (as Horace Harkness does using an assault shuttle aboard PNS Tepes in IEH. It's unclear whether it's wedge interaction that blows up the Tepes or if the wedge of the assault shuttle was big enough to hit enough vital things in it to cause the complete destruction described.

Presumably, missiles don't go for kinetic kills because their wedges would get fried by penetrating a larger wedge, and given the high wedge:mass ratio, would probably be mostly vaporized in the process.

[Batman]

It's a pity then that they NEVER use it on WEDGELESS targets. Whenever they go up against space stations, forts, or even warships 'at anchor', they use...laser heads. When the KE of the missile ALONE (nevermind the wedge) should give them MASSIVELY more damage potential than the actual warhead does. Even in situations where they DON'T have to worry about the thing being blown to bits by point defense before it hits. Mistletoe? If the wedges are oh so deadly why did they even BOTHER with the warheads?

As for the actual vs, this has got to be a joke. 40K can give Wars a run for their money. nBSG Cylons can be killed by HANDGUNS. Their capital ships are seriously threatened by KT-range nukes. BABYLON 5 could eat them alive.

[starfury]

As for the actual vs, this has got to be a joke. 40K can give Wars a run for their money. nBSG Cylons can be killed by HANDGUNS. Their capital ships are seriously threatened by KT-range nukes. BABYLON 5 could eat them alive.

Agreed I found the Honoreverse vs 40k Tangent debate far more interesting and then the actual vs, since We neve really debated 40k vs Honor harrington, since 40k was so close to Star wars and it was nice to have this actual debate for Honorverse for a change to clarify things.

[Night_stalker]

The list of races who couldn't chew up the Toasters in most universes is short. I mean the fraking Federation could handle the Cylon armada with a fleet of 40 ships!

[starfury]

The list of races who couldn't chew up the Toasters in most universes is short. I mean the fraking Federation could handle the Cylon armada with a fleet of 40 ships!

The Federation of ST is actually a fairly impressive power and can easily defeat a number of low-tech Powers, Like the Bab5 YR, Battletech, the new BS, the old Space above and Beyond humans and Chigs, most of the rest have Kiloton level energy weapons in most case, while the Feds can dish megaton level firepower just from phasers, and Photon Torpedos can threaten Shadow and vorlon Cruisers.

[Batman]

Starfury the german Wehrmacht from WW2 can probably take BattleTech on the ground. And I'd like to see where you get MT level phasers from.

[starfury]

Starfury the german Wehrmacht from WW2 can probably take BattleTech on the ground. And I'd like to see where you get MT level phasers from.

I am thinking of vaguely that Borg Cube vs Babylon 5 Youngers debate a while ago and I was more thinking of Battletech Warships in babylon 5 and BSG, like the old Mckenna vs a Mercury battlestar or a omega-class destoryer.

[Batman]

B5 has undeniably KT/s firepower for the YR for beam weapons. If memory serves BT, just like nBSG, has capital ships seriously threatened by omnidirectional KT range warheads.

[starfury]

On the Megaton level for Federation Phasers, I retract that since, I just looked at Wongs site and I thought fits nicely for lower Kiloton estimates for Phasers, which actually makes them nicely comparable to the beams weapons of the Various bab5 Races. That being said How does Battletech space forces compare to both BSG and Bab5, since we had only a few debates comparing them to other equally low-end sci-fi powers, like their main warships like the Mckenna battleship and Sovetskii Soyuz Cruiser compare a colonial Battlestar or a Omega-class destroyer.

[remus2]

I do not know how to calculate the energy output so ... I am at a loss if it can waste a warhammer ship, but it may help provide some level of comparative firepower

Actually, no. You can't get any good calculation out of it, since it is a game mechanic. It's strenght is purely based on game balance.

That is not a game mechanic. It is a fluff news reel about the old style Judgment titan weapon, designed to swat supporting fleets through sheer EM damage. In game you can’t do jack to planets, at least until tyranis comes out
A area of effect weapon that fires in all directions.
The doctrine was that the titan would cyno in smack in the middle of the enemy fleet, shoot it, and then, after enemy support fleet is out of commission the allied support fleet cyno’s in with the other cap ships to waste the remaining heavy hitters.

At any rate, about 30% or 40% of it, while deployed in orbit I think that much would affect the atmosphere and down to the landmass, was enough to fuck up a planet through raw electromagnetic force.
The newer judgments have the same power systems but fire at a single target. So that I think should put eve at a firepower level to seriously damage imperial ships.


Also at the sensors department , are they ftl or not? Because if they are light speed then the Warhamer fleets will seem like half blinded brutes to EVE pilots. A system can be scanned with a rudimentary frigate in minutes.
They do seem to be fooled by elder holograms, so I don’t know if Cov-Ops will have much of a challenge, as I never heard of cloaked ships in warhammer. But as I do not know how said warhamer sensors work so I cannot be sure about this.

But they are ALSO canonically capable of blowing off limbs with single hits after penetrating a concrete wall. That's pretty impressive, especially for an energy weapon.

DO NOT use tabletop stats. Tabletop stats do not represent the 40K-universe very well - they are highly deformed for game balance. At best, you can determine very rough comparative statements (i.e. "vehicle X has a tougher front armor than Y" or "weapon A has more range than B") - but you won't get any numbers from it.

Yes the lasgun is a impressive weapon I admit it , but:
As tt will determine rough comparative stats i.e.

. At best, you can determine very rough comparative statements (i.e. "vehicle X has a tougher front armor than Y" or "weapon A has more range than B") - but you won't get any numbers from it.

That lumps it in whit grot handguns for damage.
So in the grand scheme of things to the forces of Warhammer the difference between a shabby goblin handgun and a friggin Lazor rifle are not worth mentioning in a generals war simulation.
That is my problem.
So that is why they will remain spitballs until one of this things or something similar happens:
a) Grot blasta gets str 2( the goboz are living shields for god’s sake why do they need a weapon that is in the same class with one that can punch trough power armor)
b) Lasguns get some minimal AP
c) Or even a type of AP only against invulnerability saves let’s say AP 6 … (haven’t seen lower AP)
This is for me a real nuisance.
I know that the lasgun is impressive by our standards, but if it gets lumped in with such a thing,
The thousands of references to it as flashlight and spitball should be noted as an informal protest.
So whatever you may say or not , only the almighty GW(in matters of Warhamer) will make me stop calling it spitball, lightstick, flashlight or pocketlamp.
At any rate there is no need to point out any other facts because I am steadfast in this matter. Period
I can do reasonable, but not in this one

[Serafina]

That is not a game mechanic. It is a fluff news reel about the old style Judgment titan weapon, designed to swat supporting fleets through sheer EM damage. In game you can’t do jack to planets, at least until tyranis comes out
A area of effect weapon that fires in all directions.
The doctrine was that the titan would cyno in smack in the middle of the enemy fleet, shoot it, and then, after enemy support fleet is out of commission the allied support fleet cyno’s in with the other cap ships to waste the remaining heavy hitters.

Well, if it's a story description, you do the calcs.
Or at least extrapolate something to do calculations with.

At any rate, about 30% or 40% of it, while deployed in orbit I think that much would affect the atmosphere and down to the landmass, was enough to fuck up a planet through raw electromagnetic force.
The newer judgments have the same power systems but fire at a single target. So that I think should put eve at a firepower level to seriously damage imperial ships.

That...says pretty much nothing. It's a good start, but what does "fuck up 40% of a planetary surface" mean?
Affect?
Creating a fireball that seems that big?
Inceriate the atmosphere? Vaporize topsoil? Melt the crust?
Creating an EMP affecting 40% of the planetary surface?

You see, there are vastly different possiblities. Star Trek had one example of a planetary bombardement that seemed very big and destructive - but further analysis showed that it was not that impressive.

Also at the sensors department , are they ftl or not? Because if they are light speed then the Warhamer fleets will seem like half blinded brutes to EVE pilots. A system can be scanned with a rudimentary frigate in minutes.quote]
If it involves psykers, it's FTL.

Besides, wether you believe it or not, senors are one of those things that only matter if both sides are roughly equal in the firepower department.
If they aren't, one side can simply fly to the enemies planet, destroy any ships around it and killfuck the planet.
Or leave a couple of ships over each of their own planets, destroying any invading force.

They do seem to be fooled by elder holograms, so I don’t know if Cov-Ops will have much of a challenge, as I never heard of cloaked ships in warhammer. But as I do not know how said warhamer sensors work so I cannot be sure about this.

Eldar holofields are GOOD. Like, really, really good. They are able to fool even Necron sensors.
And while 40K doesn't have cloaked ships, that doesn't mean they can't pick them up.
First, it will most likely not block psykers - not the most reliable method, but it would work.
Second, do they block gravimetrics? EM-radiation? Heat? Etc. pp.

Besides, as i mentioned above - it only matters if both sides are roughly equal. What use is a cloaking device if you can not damage your opponent? He can still bombard your planets and you can't touch his.

That lumps it in whit grot handguns for damage.
So in the grand scheme of things to the forces of Warhammer the difference between a shabby goblin handgun and a friggin Lazor rifle are not worth mentioning in a generals war simulation.

You don't get it, do you?
Just because TT-stats are equal doesn't mean the guns are equal.
Or would you also determine that an Ork is a strong as a human just because they have the same strenght?

Furthermore, do you know how damaging the grot handgun is? Unless you do, your statement has zero value even if we accept it.

"Rough comparisions" can pretty much only be used to make very general statements.
Yes, that means that the grot handgun and lasgun are comparable - just like a WWI-rifle and a modern assault rifle are "comparable".


Learn how to intepretate evidence and how to differiantate between weak and strong evidence.
Or in other words:
Go back to school, kiddie.

[remus2]

That...says pretty much nothing. It's a good start, but what does "fuck up 40% of a planetary surface" mean?
Affect?
Creating a fireball that seems that big?
Inceriate the atmosphere? Vaporize topsoil? Melt the crust?
Creating an EMP affecting 40% of the planetary surface?

You see, there are vastly different possiblities. Star Trek had one example of a planetary bombardement that seemed very big and destructive - but further analysis showed that it was not that impressive.

Go back to school, kiddie.

The 30/40 of the weapons fire was directed at the planet.
Damned thing was unaimable. Shot in all direction through the hull damaging anything it hit, friend or foe

Found this with some help, from the murky depths of early news reels:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=sin ... 1258&tid=5
That is from when the Judgment was a spherical area of effect weapon

Is :

rescue ships finally reach disaster planet surface
reported by Mahk Roredin | 2006.09.18 19:41:15
Last Wednesday a convoy of rescue ships finally landed on the surface of the planet Reschard V, seven months after the planet was reduced to an uninhabitable wreck by an as yet unexplained disaster.
The convoy of rescue ships, under the aegis of The Servant Sisters, were finally able to land on the surface of the planet during the first lull in the planet-wide megastorms since the incident occurred. Despite the scale of the destruction - and the significant period of time which the entire surface of the planet has been incapable of supporting life and almost completely devoid of infrastructure - the search and rescue parties received quite a shock.
Amongst the ruins and caves dotting the landscape, the teams found and rescued well over 2000 survivors from the disaster. Suffering from malnutrition and disease, and with rumours of cannibalism filtering through the fleet, they were quickly evacuated to medical vessels in orbit, before being moved to an undisclosed location where their physical and mental states can be assessed and treated. Representatives from the Sisters quickly announced to the media that there was no evidence of cannibalism at any of the survivor sites, and that search and survey missions of the planet will continue until it is no longer safe to remain on the surface.
In related news, investigators from Mordu's Legion and CONCORD have confirmed that the disaster was not of natural origin. Releasing small sections of the compiled data to the public, the investigation team announced that scans of the system shortly before the event occurred indicated the presence of an Avatar-class vessel; an Amarr Empire designed Titan, in low orbit over the planet. This was further confirmed by scans conducted in the days after the event, which detected an energy signature on and around the planet consistent with the doomsday device known as 'Judgement'. According to experts this weapon, normally used to annihilate entire fleets, is quite capable of causing the level of destruction seen across the entire planet of Reschard V.
This was where the good news from the investigators ended, as according to all available data, the Avatar immediately jumped out of the system after the weapon had been fired. However, due to the simultaneous activation of over two dozen cynosural fields across the galaxy, they were unable to track the vessels course, and beyond that all contact with the vessel was lost.

This is the Type of Judgement referred by the news reel:

And this is the new type Judgment whit the same power systems

"Rough comparisions" can pretty much only be used to make very general statements.
Yes, that means that the grot handgun and lasgun are comparable - just like a WWI-rifle and a modern assault rifle are "comparable".

Learn how to intepretate evidence and how to differiantate between weak and strong evidence.

I have a few Guardsmen squads an none to play with. Pleas bear with me. Let me went my frustration.
And if the analogue of modern rifle/WW2 holds true, I am even more infuriated and must find a worse derogatory than flashlight. That said, Spitball it is.

Go back to school, kiddie.

No need, you are already a harsh Teacher.
Ich nehme an das ich ein Kleinkind wegen meiner posten anzahl bin, sonst wahre dies fur uns beide peinlich.

[Serafina]

The 30/40 of the weapons fire was directed at the planet.
Damned thing was unaimable. Shot in all direction through the hull damaging anything it hit, friend or foe

*snip videos*

Soo - the weapon fired at the planet, and about 2000 humans out of an unknown amount of inhabitants survived?
That's all you've got?

Reducing a planet to an "uninhabitable wreck" is not very usefull, either, unless we know more about the planet.

But alas, we can determine that a single shot from their largest warship (who features a main battery which basically is the whole purpose of the ship) is NOT capable of wiping out all human life on a planet.

We can set our figures anywhere between
"planet with billions of inhabitants with a few surviors who were in a lucky spot" and
"small colonie where a significant percentage of people survived".

The "violent storms" could be more usefull to determine the destruction, but i am not knowledgable enough to derive numbers from it.

I have a few Guardsmen squads an none to play with. Pleas bear with me. Let me went my frustration.
And if the analogue of modern rifle/WW2 holds true, I am even more infuriated and must find a worse derogatory than flashlight. That said, Spitball it is.

Oh, sod off. You can't deny proven capabilities, such as blowing holes in concrete walls or blowing off whole limbs.
That clearly indicates that it is quite powerfull - it can easily kill a human being.

No need, you are already a harsh Teacher.

My pleasure, as long as you are willing to learn.

Ich nehme an das ich ein Kleinkind wegen meiner posten anzahl bin, sonst wahre dies fur uns beide peinlich.

No, i called you kid because so far, your debating has been a style-over substance fallacy, which is often used by kids.

[Simon_Jester]

You're an idiot.

Is it a bad sign if I would not disagree?
Because I sincerely think you may be right.

...Wow. That almost never happens.

[falls off balance]

So, except in a setting especially created by the author (Dan Abnett), they remain the spitballs on the battlefield of the 41st millennium

Except... you didn't change your position on lasguns.

The Guard spends a great deal of its time fighting merely-human rebels, traitor Guard units, or aliens whose armor and weapons are not greatly superior to Guard standard issue. Compared to Space Marines, lasgun shots are spitballs, but that's because Marines are wearing massive powered armor that's designed to resist chaingun fire. Compared to Necrons, lasgun shots are spitballs, but that's because Necrons are Terminator robots created by a hellishly advanced civilization- again, they're designed to shrug off chaingun fire. Compared to tanks and monstrous creatures, lasguns are spitballs. Again, that's against an opponent designed to shrug off chaingun fire.

See a pattern here? Lasguns are antipersonnel weapons. They are designed to kill things that, like human beings, are made out of meat, not things that are made out of steel. They are designed to kill things that are the size of a man, roughly, not things that are the size of a house. That does not make them a feeble weapon any more than a real life assault rifle is. Assault rifles cannot be used to knock down a house, or destroy a tank, or sink a battleship. They are not spitballs.

For targeting heavily armored opponents that only show up in small numbers (like Space Marines, or tanks), the Guard has a completely different kind of weapon- support weapons, such as missile launchers, lascannon, and the guns of their armored vehicles.

This is explained in implications during On Basilisk Station and In Enemy Hands. The impeller wedge has a massive spacial distortion effect on the volume contained within it and near it. If the wedges intersect (or even get really really close to intersecting), the stronger wedge will blow out the weaker...

That's easy to solve, on a throat or kilt shot. Get your missile within a few thousand kilometers or so of the target, then kill the wedge. It's moving at relativistic speeds; it's going to hit the target within a few milliseconds at that point. Point defense will nail a lot of missiles on an approach that close, but if anything gets through it's going to blow the target to shreds. If you could score anything like a hit with a contact nuke you can connect with this, and you'll hit the target one hell of a lot harder than the nuke would have.

Now, point defense being what it is, of course, but you're about as likely to score a hit this way as you would be with X-ray lasers... and this causes far, far more damage than an X-ray laser hit ever could. It would be almost the ideal technique for chase armament combat, and one that should have been used in On Basilisk Station if it were practical to do so.

And yet, once again, the Honorverse does not do this. They could, according to you, but they don't. I can only assume there's a reason for this, and that they would not immediately pull a God Weapon out of their pants the moment they had to fight anyone new.

[Terralthra]

It's a pity then that they NEVER use it on WEDGELESS targets. Whenever they go up against space stations, forts, or even warships 'at anchor', they use...laser heads. When the KE of the missile ALONE (nevermind the wedge) should give them MASSIVELY more damage potential than the actual warhead does. Even in situations where they DON'T have to worry about the thing being blown to bits by point defense before it hits. Mistletoe? If the wedges are oh so deadly why did they even BOTHER with the warheads?

Their space station forts actually have either 360 degree spherical sidewalls or low-grade wedges. The only time we see ships attacking non-military space stations is The Honor of the Queen, and it's the Masadans doing it to Grayson asteroid mining facilities using their shit space navy which still uses chemical reaction drive missiles. As for attacking warships at anchor, either the construction facilities have some sidewalls or they are using stand-off weaponry out of fear that the ships might be able to get their wedge up by impact.

The only time I can remember a shipyard really getting blown the hell up, it was scuttled by the RMN, not destroyed by enemy fire, in War of Honor. Is there another shipyard I'm forgetting?

[Simon_Jester]

Ah, but they also never use it on the bow or stern of targets that are protected by wedges but more or less stationary; that is far more significant.

[Terralthra]

The wedge's distortion is a volumetric effect: the area contained within the wedges is affected, not just areas directly covered, and wedges extend for kilometers past covering the volume of the ship in question.

[remus2]

Smal remark. Nothing to do with the debate.

your debating has been a style-over substance fallacy

I love this one .
Style-over substance fallacy … so… presumtios – it does indicate style, the expression, doesn’t it? Makes me almost wish I could take half the style you are endowing me with and call it quits. I would be on the winning side of the deal.
Where were we? Style-over substance fallacy.
Damn. Those calcs surely are very solid.
Aren’t they based of special effects? <Please take a minute and consider the hilarity of this before continuing>
And various scenes depicted in books of authors who barely have a grasp of the things they are describing, doing it so that the plot and the book be most pleasing so it has a better marketvalue?
I do not believe the damning gigantic majority of those authors have physics, biology or chemistry degrees now do they?
Any calcs made by us the fanbase are a mere leaf in the wind. The creators of the universes are literally tornados, hurricanes.
Now if you want to take various internet calcs as stats pleas take them as pseudo-substance, something of an agreement to get a crossover somewhere the illusion of near remotely objective( and unfortunately it wil always remains subjective)

Now as of me debating being a style-over substance fallacy:
If the authors/ creators of said univerce do not provide hard, cold, nailed down power levels, then I will not hazard to say this has petatons and this just kilotons. It has no reason to, because it will be bug ridden to hell and back, because we will never know more than said author provides. So I stick do presenting clear features and leave the murk numbers to those who the community has agreed to use.( is ths not ironic –feats are clear and numbers murky – I have trouble writing this one )
Let both of us leave mathematical philosophy of powerlevels to those experienced to do so, because neither of us is so good at maths, and as I said, I hate to try deducing power levels. “The Thing did this. And that thing did that” Is imo a better and more adequate depiction, as each will interpret it different, depending on their respective knowledge base
___________________________________________________________________________



Now the debate:

*snip videos*

Ok. These are not snip videos. You can call them in universe

Well I conceded tactical reaction, but this is a good strategic reaction speed, what do you say?

• Also note the economic activity of just the Gallente federation

And this one is a capsuleer batlle –The capsuleers as you well know gather in alliances, are technicaly immortal, do not have access to the most high end mill tech, and can be all swatted by one of the empires.

• Please note this time the deployment time, and how a battle between capsuleers works as depicted by the devs. These should happen daily. Between some alliance or the other
• In game this is quite accurate. These actually happen daily. -Except they do not use nifty formations but ship gang blobs, the lack of cuss words and Leeroy Jenkins analogues, and wonder of wonders unburdened com channels!!!
• The fluff-vise number of capsuleers is the actual number of players. One plateyr joins, One medium rich fellow from EVE has the harebrained Idea of becoming a capsuleer, getting expensive tailored jump/medical clones, and necessary modifications and implants.

Soo - the weapon fired at the planet, and about 2000 humans out of an unknown amount of inhabitants survived?
That's all you've got?

Reducing a planet to an "uninhabitable wreck" is not very usefull, either, unless we know more about the planet.

But alas, we can determine that a single shot from their largest warship (who features a main battery which basically is the whole purpose of the ship) is NOT capable of wiping out all human life on a planet.

We can set our figures anywhere between
"planet with billions of inhabitants with a few surviors who were in a lucky spot" and
"small colonie where a significant percentage of people survived".

The "violent storms" could be more usefull to determine the destruction, but i am not knowledgable enough to derive numbers from it.

The fitting of a Avatar titan:
What this fitting is meant for is a mobile mini tradestation analogue. The high/med/low slots are of roughly same size/volume category

HIGH-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Dual Giga Beam Laser I
- Dual Giga Beam Laser I
- Dual Giga Beam Laser I
- Dual Giga Beam Laser I
- Judgement (optional)
- Small Tractor Beam I (soon the capital version <3)
- Clone Vat Bay I
- Jump Portal Generator I

MED-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~~
- Cargo Scanner I
- Practical Type-E Ship Probe
- Rock-Scanning Sensor Array I
- Cap Recharger II
- Cap Recharger II

LOW-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~~
- 'Boreas' Coolant System
- C4S Coiled Circuit Thermal Radiator
- Capital Armor Repairer I
- Voltaic Nanite Thermic Hardener I
- Armor EM Hardener II
- F85 Peripheral Damage System I
- Expanded Cargohold II
- Expanded Cargohold II

That is whitouth the ship maintanace bay and various subsistems.
While searching for maintenancebay capacity found this here:

Ship Maintenance Bay Capacity 5000000 m3

Maximum Jump Clones 75

Jump portal activation cost
25000 GJ

And about the world. It is a nice, avarage Gallente Federation world. You can put those in the billions scale.

The 30/40 of the weapons fire was directed at the planet.
Damned thing was unaimable. Shot in all direction through the hull damaging anything it hit, friend or foe

Soo - the weapon fired at the planet, and about 2000 humans out of an unknown amount of inhabitants survived?

.[/quote]

Dear Lord no! It fired near the planet not at the planet. What do you think they are barbarians?
Anything that is on a planet’s surface can be destroyed without destroying said planet, for they are a important resource of the empires. So what that it was rendered inhabitable? The new owner (In this case no one was mad enough to start a war with the Gallenteans over it) will use closed habitats similar to space stations.
And after this incident no private owned Capital ships are allowed in High-sec space and anyone spotted opening fire in high-sec has automatically put a bounty on his head and system patrols and defense systems begin active targeting and return fire .( actually this was the excuse to create High-sec space for the “carebears”-read non-combatant players)

Their mind-boggling mass can cause small ships to become trapped in the gravity bow-wave before them. A few of these vessels are massive enough that their presence affects planetary tidal patterns. One notable incident occurred on the small agricultural world of Goral, where a Gallente Titan moving into orbit caused an abrupt shift in tides, which flooded crop fields and farmland. The decrease in food production meant that the entire system, which depended on Goral for food stock, had to be supplied by merchants or face starvation. Since then, Titan navigation systems have been programmed with fail-safes to prevent them from approaching a planet so closely.

If the said avatar wanted to take a small colony out, with some work of disabling said systems it could have pulled the same stunt, with the benefit that any survivors wont ever go back, no small world will ever feel safe and the world would not have been rendered uninhabitable.

My pleasure, as long as you are willing to learn.

Yay ! Squeee! It shall be like highschool all over again. Beware I am starting to like you.

You're an idiot.

Is it a bad sign if I would not disagree?
Because I sincerely think you may be right.

...Wow. That almost never happens.

[falls off balance]
.

.I can call you a moron, or activate internet troll mode, if it would make you more comfortable...
But I fail to see any other use for it. Curses and cuss word are for the audio medium. Written they just lose the certain something.

Now , have you found your Schwerpunckt back?

So, except in a setting especially created by the author (Dan Abnett), they remain the spitballs on the battlefield of the 41st millennium

Except... you didn't change your position on lasguns.

This one has degenerate from my comparison oh HH verse manticore missile massacre with the IG army against Wh40k fleets.
Also Wh40k is not IG fighting aliens with crappy armor and slug-thrower armed revolutionaries…
Not in the large proportion of the fluff.
At any rate I admitted the lasgun is good
(Big parantesiz.) {would the guard fight guardsmen analogs- to bad it usually does not in the fulff. They are only off stage, not worth mentioning
– which would be my personal reason for calling them so. Can you argue on a personal basis on this one?-
Yup on this one I am really biased and related to the many books -guard excluded- and TT that actually make the las in *take a guess* A Spitball} (big parantesis closed)


Atachment to the EVE debate with Serafina:

The in house economist (yes ccp uses an actually economist to help with game play balance) has stated in his blog that eve operates on a 4x clock. So 1 year of eve time represents 4 years of real time. A titan takes 3 months of in game build (including components, mineral compression, etc) and would represent one year of actual work.

So battleships aren't build in a matter of 3-4 hours. More like 12-16 hours. Still, that's a phenomenal rate of industrial production likely to be completely unmatchable by the imperium.

[Serafina]

The fitting of a Avatar titan:
What this fitting is meant for is a mobile mini tradestation analogue. The high/med/low slots are of roughly same size/volume category

Look, those are just fancy words. As i said, style-over substance.

That is whitouth the ship maintanace bay and various subsistems.
While searching for maintenancebay capacity found this here:
Quote:
Ship Maintenance Bay Capacity 5000000 m3

Now THIS is more interesting - of course, it's still in-game information, but at least it's something.

Five million cubic meters cargo space - now we just have to know how many percent volume of the ship are cargo space.

And about the world. It is a nice, avarage Gallente Federation world. You can put those in the billions scale.

Evidence?



Okay, let's get this straigthened out:
I am NOT going to perform calculations for you.
In other words:
Do your own bloody homework.

For starters, you could calculate how large a cargo ship is (since it's safe to assume that a cargo ships devotes most it's interior space to, well, cargo space). Just take the stated amount of cubic meters, the dimensions of the ship (i.e. "four times as long as high/broad"). From there, you can scale other ships.

You could also calculate the output of individual weapons, since EVE states those figures in GJ etc.
BEWARE:
This won't give you hard numbers - since it is game information, you will have to compare them to neutral figures, such as the damage to the planet. If it turns out that the two roughly match, you have an usable figure for weapon output. If they don't match - well, good luck finding another solution.

You can also state intra-system FTL-speeds, and possibly inter-system FTL-speeds.
It's also possible that you can find numbers their population and perhaps industrial output.


All those won't match the wealth of evidence for 40K - but at least it will be a start, and with luck enough to see wether the two play in the same league or not.



Now, ladies and gentlemen, the sad part.

I love this one .
Style-over substance fallacy … so… presumtios – it does indicate style, the expression, doesn’t it? Makes me almost wish I could take half the style you are endowing me with and call it quits. I would be on the winning side of the deal.
Where were we? Style-over substance fallacy.
Damn. Those calcs surely are very solid.
Aren’t they based of special effects? <Please take a minute and consider the hilarity of this before continuing>
And various scenes depicted in books of authors who barely have a grasp of the things they are describing, doing it so that the plot and the book be most pleasing so it has a better marketvalue?
I do not believe the damning gigantic majority of those authors have physics, biology or chemistry degrees now do they?
Any calcs made by us the fanbase are a mere leaf in the wind. The creators of the universes are literally tornados, hurricanes.
Now if you want to take various internet calcs as stats pleas take them as pseudo-substance, something of an agreement to get a crossover somewhere the illusion of near remotely objective( and unfortunately it wil always remains subjective)

Now as of me debating being a style-over substance fallacy:
If the authors/ creators of said univerce do not provide hard, cold, nailed down power levels, then I will not hazard to say this has petatons and this just kilotons. It has no reason to, because it will be bug ridden to hell and back, because we will never know more than said author provides. So I stick do presenting clear features and leave the murk numbers to those who the community has agreed to use.( is ths not ironic –feats are clear and numbers murky – I have trouble writing this one )
Let both of us leave mathematical philosophy of powerlevels to those experienced to do so, because neither of us is so good at maths, and as I said, I hate to try deducing power levels. “The Thing did this. And that thing did that” Is imo a better and more adequate depiction, as each will interpret it different, depending on their respective knowledge base

Stop digging. Right now!
The pit is still shallow enough to climb out.

Take a good look at this essay from the main site.
When we discuss Sci-fi, we do NOT use authors intent. It doesn't matter wether the author knows squat about science - all that matters are the consistent figures we can derive from his/her stories.
Video games are typically not usefull for debating because they do NOT have consistent figures. That's just the way game balance works.

What you are doing here is essentially destroying any rational, conclusive debate. If we follow your method, we can essentially derive whatever we want, since we can just stick to invisible authors intent.

Final note:
We have explanations of logical fallacies on this site. Look them up. Learning formal logic is fun and usefull.

[Simon_Jester]

The wedge's distortion is a volumetric effect: the area contained within the wedges is affected, not just areas directly covered, and wedges extend for kilometers past covering the volume of the ship in question.

Then how come pod combatants can toss missile pods out the stern of their own wedge without having them ripped to shreds by the wedge?

If missile pods can drift out through the back of the wedge, relativistic kill vehicles can come in through the back of the wedge.

Smal remark. Nothing to do with the debate.

your debating has been a style-over substance fallacy

I love this one .
Style-over substance fallacy … so… presumtios – it does indicate style, the expression, doesn’t it? Makes me almost wish I could take half the style you are endowing me with and call it quits. I would be on the winning side of the deal.

Once upon a time, I called you an idiot. I was wrong. You do not sound like an idiot. You sound like a pompous, self-loathing idiot.

Any calcs made by us the fanbase are a mere leaf in the wind. The creators of the universes are literally tornados, hurricanes.

And yet there's still a difference between a setting where the Starfleet can crack open a planet before breakfast and a setting where the Starfleet's deadliest weapons are nuclear warheads. Most good SF is at least broadly consistent in this respect.

40k is a setting that routinely blows up planets. Battlestar Galactica, not so much. I can tell the difference; can't you?

At any rate I admitted the lasgun is good
(Big parantesiz.) {would the guard fight guardsmen analogs- to bad it usually does not in the fulff. They are only off stage, not worth mentioning
– which would be my personal reason for calling them so. Can you argue on a personal basis on this one?-

Nonsense. We see Guard fighting human traitors in the codexes. We see Guard fighting Eldar and Tau (whose basic infantry are within shouting distance of humans, and can definitely be affected by lasgun fire). We see Guard fighting massive waves of Tyranids (where, again, the basic level 'gaunts are affected by lasgun fire). We see Guard fighting orks (where, yet again, the basic level 'boyz are affected by lasgun fire).

Now, some of those foes are more than a little resistant to lasgun fire, but all can be killed by it quite easily. Orks are the most resistant... and they are so tough that they can survive being decapitated and having their head sewed back on with a rusty needle. Take an ork 'boy who's survived something like that, shoot him with a lasgun, and even in tabletop there's better than a one in four chance of a single lasgun shot incapacitating him (inflicting a wound, since he's a one-wound model).

And you're talking about incapacitating a creature whose response to having one of his own limbs chopped off is to grab it and try to beat you to death with it. One chance in four of taking him down is not bad, for one shot. By comparison, a bolter round (which is a rocket propelled grenade) has one chance in two of taking down that ork with a single hit.

[remus2]

Found full stats of the avatar. Some are clearly Gameplay issues, like HP and max velocity in space, and other such things, but some might prove useful for comparisons:

Avatar
Casting his sight on his realm, the Lord witnessed
The cascade of evil, the torrents of war.
Burning with wrath, He stepped
down from the Heavens
To judge the unworthy,
To redeem the pure.

-The Scriptures, Revelation Verses 2:12



Amarr Titan Skill Bonuses:
100% bonus to Capital Energy Turret damage per level
7.5% bonus to gang members' capacitor recharge rate per level
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit Judgement Super Weapon
Can fit Jump Portal Generator
Can fit Clone Vat Bay
Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level
Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare
Structure
Structure Hitpoints
750000 HP
Max Velocity
60 m/sec
Inertia Modifier
0.037
Corporate Hangar Capacity
100000 m3
Fuel Bay Capacity
60000 m3
Mass
2,278,125,000 kg
Volume
155000000 m3
Capacity
11250 m3
Fitting
powergrid Output
1,250,000 MW
Low Slots
8
Med Slots
5
High Slots
8
CPU Output
815 tf
Launcher hardpoints
0
Turret hardpoints
6
Calibration
400 points
Upgrade Hardpoints
3
Capacitor
Recharge time
6750000 s
Capacitor Capacity
112500 GJ
Targeting
Maximum Targeting Range
250 km
Max Locked Targets
8
RADAR Sensor Strength
200 points
Signature Radius
15.76 km
Scan Resolution
45 mm
Shield
Shield Capacity
580000 HP
Shield Em Damage Resistance
0 %
Shield Explosive Damage Resistance
50 %
Shield Kinetic Damage Resistance
40 %
Shield Thermal Damage Resistance
20 %
Shield recharge time
37000000 s
Armor
Armor Hitpoints
1.4E+6 HP
Armor Em Damage Resistance
50 %
Armor Explosive Damage Resistance
20 %
Armor Kinetic Damage Resistance
25 %
Armor Thermal Damage Resistance
35 %
Drones
Drone Capacity
325 m3
Drone Bandwidth
125 Mbit/sec
Miscellaneous
CPU Need Bonus
-99 %
Maximum Operational Distance
5 km
Maximum Concurrent Operational Users
2
Jump Drive Fuel Need
Helium Isotopes
Maximum Jump Range
3.5 ly
Jump Drive Consumption Amount
1000
Jump Drive Capacitor Need
0.95 %
Ship Maintenance Bay Capacity
5000000 m3
Maximum Jump Clones
75
Jump portal activation cost
25000 GJ
Rig Size
Large

Stop digging. Right now!
The pit is still shallow enough to climb out.

Take a good look at this essay from the main site.

Aha.. so THOSE are the rules. Well at any rate you have been nice to disagree with.
If he community in which I debate states it is true, so shall it be. No need to stir up de locals.
But they are fictional, ergo, for me at least, if author does not present his work to be at least comprehensible from a precise point of view, then they are fantasy. No need to mix exact science with fantasy
Suspension of Disbelief is something in poetry or something.
I’ll stop right now with the assumptions.

Ah... found it on wiki.
I have certain skepticism towards reality and how I perceive it. Why on the twelve gates of hell would I believe a fictional work to be accurate?

Funny thing is, Serafina if you enact the suspension of disbelief, faulty logic also for you becomes true… Nice endless circle, Eh?

Smal remark. Nothing to do with the debate.

your debating has been a style-over substance fallacy

I love this one .
Style-over substance fallacy … so… presumtios – it does indicate style, the expression, doesn’t it? Makes me almost wish I could take half the style you are endowing me with and call it quits. I would be on the winning side of the deal.

Once upon a time, I called you an idiot. I was wrong. You do not sound like an idiot. You sound like a pompous, self-loathing idiot.

That was me, trying style. Obviosly it did not work.
As to the idiot part, as previous i do agree with it...
Now the self-loathing one that bugs me ... do i need more megalomania in my stylish talk?

[Serafina]

Nice stats.
Now do some calculations.

Come on, whats's the matter? Afraid of numbers?
You have the volume and the mass of the damn thing - a high-school kid can do it.
If you don't remeber the formulas, look them up.

But they are fictional, ergo, for me at least, if author does not present his work to be at least comprehensible from a precise point of view, then they are fantasy. No need to mix exact science with fantasy

Sigh...

You did not read the linked page.

We KNOW that those universes are not real. That doesn't prevent us from using the scientific method on them.
This is the best way to derive numbers. The only other way is taking numbers given in the respecive medium, and those are often highly nonsensical.

Ah... found it on wiki.
I have certain skepticism towards reality and how I perceive it. Why on the twelve gates of hell would I believe a fictional work to be accurate?

Oookay.

I take back everything i have said before.
You ARE an idiot.

Sure, our limited human senses can be incorrect from time to time. But overall, there is only one way to perceive reality.
Logic and the scientific method enable us to determine what's correct and what's not. Discarding them means that you have no way to do so.
In other words: Welcome to imagination land, kid.

Funny thing is, Serafina if you enact the suspension of disbelief, faulty logic also for you becomes true… Nice endless circle, Eh?

Nonsensical statement is nonsensical,
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