Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by fgalkin »

Ghost Rider wrote:
Night_stalker wrote:It's one thing to kill a million by either neglect or accident, but to do it delibertly is a whole nother ballgame.
How so? While this is not to say the Nazi's actions are lessened, the British Empire inflicted horrific standards of living and conditions to their colonies. Just because they didn't escort them by train to an area to die, to claim that it's *another ball game* is ignorant on many levels given their responsibilities and sheer neglect both intentional and unintentional to a people they served as the government to.

So care to explain it or is this another one of your +1 posts?
By that reasoning, there should be no distinction between first degree murder and manslaughter, since the overall effects are the same- a dead person.

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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by PeZook »

Iosef Cross wrote: Actually, they (the Nazis) originally envisioned sending the Jews to Madagascar. Later they planned to use the Jews as construction slave workers for infrastructure projects in the conquered Soviet Union. However, after the failure of Barbarossa, they changed their plan again and decided to simply kill them all.
I guess that's why they cut food rations in conquered Eastern territories to starving levels right away in 1939?

There is an exhibit in the Auschwitz Museum about September 1939 ; The walls are plastered with reproductions of Nazi memos and internal documents discussing the ways to best physically destroy the Polish nation. While they may not have had a clearly outlined policy of extermination back then, the attitude was present just fine and was being applied in practice.

As for the death toll: remember the sheer tempo of destruction. They killed circa 10 million people in five years ; That's 2 million per year, 5,5 thousand a day, 225 an hour or about 4 people every minute on average.

Give them a victory in WWII and fifteen more years and see if you can feel evil chill down your spine. For most people before, it took them decades or centuries to reach those awesome bodycounts.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Bilbo »

Samuel wrote:
Aztecs and Mayas - Human sacrifice is not nice.
So did the celts and alot of ancient cultures. They were vile, but I would consider them absolute evil.
The Celts certainly did not have a culture or society as sophisticated as the Mayans or the Aztecs. The Aztecs used human sacrifice on a very regular basis as a foundation of their religion and waged war specifically to gain victims to mutilate and sacrifice.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Stuart »

stormthebeaches wrote: That's what I meant. A series of famines over a period of 150 years (not 200, that was my mistake) which resulted in 24 to 29 million deaths. The blog states that the first famine occurred in 1772 and the last famine was in 1927 so I'm drawing my conclusions from that.
Actually, Indian famines go much further back than that. For example there was a great famine in 1022-1023 that is believed to have killed around three million people; there was another in Deccan and Gujarat in the 1620s that killed another two million. The last major famines in India were in Bihar in 1966 and Maharashtra in 1973. So, famines both preceeded and post-dated the British occupation of India. It is hard, therefore to see the justification for holding the Brits responsible for them.

The real problem has been that there has always been a precarious balance between India's population and its food resources. That balance is easily disturbed and is, anyway, totally dependent on the Monsoon cycle. If the monsoon is late or it falls short in terms of total rainfall, then there is going to be a disaster. No ifs buts or maybes there. The sheer size of India and its population means that any disaster was going to kill a lot of people. Now, on average, the monsoon fails (ie is late and/or short) one year in twenty. One monsoon failure and there was a serious problem, two monsoon failures in quick succession and there is a Great Famine. That's the weather, pure and simple. It doesn't really matter who ruled the country

The other problem with India is its size. The projections used on maps understates this but India is big. It also had virtually no long-haul transport infrastructure. This is as much a problem today as it was a hundred years ago. Give you a simple example; because there is no long-haul freight transport system of any note, it's impossible to move raw materials around the countryside. This means that factories have to be built where the raw materials are. This means they produce their products close to teh sources of raw materials. Now, one of the primary raw materials sources is natural gas and this gets used, inter alia, for fertilizer production. So, we have large quantities of fertilizer being produced close to the natural gas fields which is largely where it isn't needed. So we have a fertilizer glut where we don't need it and we have a fertilizer shortage where it is needed.

This has a catastrophic effect on food production now and was much worse way back when. Food is a time sensitive bulk commodity; it's hard to transport in quantity and if it doesn't reach its destination quickly, it spoils and is wasted. This is particularly so in hot climates where (for example) milk can spoil in a few hours. So, it is extremely hard to counter a famine that takes place in one area by moving supplies in from another. In an era when the only bulk cargo transport medium was ox carts (average distance for an ox cart carrying a ton of cargo on reasonably good roads is 16 miles per day - and that assumes the oxen are grazing between pulls; if they have to be fed using fodder, you can work out how quickly they eat their cargo) mass movement of food supplies was impossible. So, it was quite possible for one region which got lucky in the monsoon lottery to have an excess of food bordering on abundance while another region as little as a hundred miles away which got unlucky has thousands dying of famine. And nobody could do anything about it.

This, by the way, is the explanation why India exported large quantities of food in the middle of famines. It's not perversity or deliberate slaughter, it's a reasonable response to trying to match a problem with a solution. India has no long haul transport medium; one can't, for example bring food from (say) Tamil Nadu to Kashmir. It would take weeks, months even. So, what one does is loads that excess food onto ships and sell it for hard cash. Then, one uses that hard cash to buy food elsewhere and bring it in. Remember, ox-cart 16 miles per day, merchant ship circa 200 miles per day. Maximum radius of transport for an ox-cart is around 160 miles, for a merchant ship it's several thousand miles.

The British initiated a break in this pattern by building railways, canals and other investments in infrastructure. They were weak (primarily due to the sheer amount of work that had to be done) but they did achieve a significant break in the dependence on the Monsoon Cycle. It is perfectly arguable that in other famines of the 19th century, the British did nothing to ameliorate the disaster but then nobody else had either and it's arguable that the British simply didn't know what to do. Famine on this scale was something they had never run into before and they applied measures that had worked in their own much smaller, much less severe and much more localized famines and those measures were found seriously wanting. It is notable that as British experience built up, they got more effective and the famines receded. Instead of killing millions, they killed hundreds of thousands. Then there were the Great Famines of 1917 and 1932 - oh, there weren't (there should have been; the Monsoons failed on schedule both years but famine was prevented in those years). In fact, there was no famine in India between 1896 and 1943 - and that is a major break in Indian history.

The last great famine was in 1943/44 in Bengal. The British can't really be blamed for it; it was a perfect storm of circumstances and everybody had a hand in it. Name a country and it was responsible somewhere. (Let's see; Germany - torpedoed British freighters causing a shipping shortage that prevented food being brought in. United States? Had lots of merchant ships but had a very inefficient way of using those ships that resulted in large numbers being used as little more than floating warehouses. Thus adding to the shipping shortage. Sometimes the links can be a bit strained but they're there).

The point I'm getting at is that famine in India is a very complicated issue and it has a lot of factors in it. It's always very easy to score cheap points by hugely oversimplifying these issues (and there is a distinct strain in academia that loves to do just that) but the reality is that the issues are very complex and require detailed studies of climate and transport infrastructure. Yes, if one takes the virtue that every death from famine in India was due to the British, one can rack up an impressive death toll. However, it is equally justifiable to add up the numbers of people who didn't die either because their (granted, fumbling and often inept but still existant) aid measures saved lives (in the Bihar famine of 1973-74 there was no significant mortality at all due to prompt and effective aid) or because their infrastructure developments prevented famines completely. Just taking the Bihar Famine and the early 20th century famines that never happened, one can argue that 18 million lives were "saved" in those three cases alone. Add in the reduction in death tolls due to other aid efforts and other famines that didn't happen and I bet I can make it look as if more lives were saved than lost.

No matter how one cuts it, a look at the British in India shows that tehy at least tried to do something about famines. None of their other predeccessors did - primarily because they couldn't.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Mayabird »

Bilbo wrote:Aztecs and Mayas - Human sacrifice is not nice.
The Aztecs were total bastards and you'll hardly find someone who'd disagree, but the Mayans didn't practice the same large-scale human sacrifice (in fact, no one did to the levels of the Aztecs). You can't condemn them in the same breath as the Aztecs unless you're going to condemn every other group ever that performed any human sacrifice ever, which would most likely include a few modern groups. And that would be getting away from the whole thing about heights of historical evil since you'd be hard pressed to say that the death of a few individuals outweigh the deaths of millions just because one was a ritual religious thing and the other was for something else.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Simon_Jester »

I can certainly see this being a major problem: as you explain, given 18th century technology (or even 19th), it's not hard to imagine a situation where food is being exported from Kerala while there's a famine in the Punjab, any more than it's hard to imagine food being exported from Spain while there's a famine in Poland.

That said, I'm not sure this fully addresses the early days, when British rule over India was largely administrated by the EIC. While the EIC surely couldn't have caused the Bengal Famine of 1770, since it couldn't control the weather, that does not clear it of the charge of having made the famine much, much worse than it had to be. The same charge might reasonably be levied against the British government in the Great Irish Famine of the 1840s, since Ireland is so much smaller than India and a good chunk of the population lives within ox-cart range of the coast.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Bilbo »

Mayabird wrote:
Bilbo wrote:Aztecs and Mayas - Human sacrifice is not nice.
The Aztecs were total bastards and you'll hardly find someone who'd disagree, but the Mayans didn't practice the same large-scale human sacrifice (in fact, no one did to the levels of the Aztecs). You can't condemn them in the same breath as the Aztecs unless you're going to condemn every other group ever that performed any human sacrifice ever, which would most likely include a few modern groups. And that would be getting away from the whole thing about heights of historical evil since you'd be hard pressed to say that the death of a few individuals outweigh the deaths of millions just because one was a ritual religious thing and the other was for something else.
You are right. I retract the Mayans from my list.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Bilbo wrote:The Aztecs used human sacrifice on a very regular basis as a foundation of their religion and waged war specifically to gain victims to mutilate and sacrifice.
The problem is there is incredibly little evidence. All the primary accounts come from the Spaniards, who were desperately trying to justify the fact that they exterminated the Aztecs. Just like how accounts of cannibalism became widespread, despite the fact that it was rarely (if ever) practised. There are few sources that discuss the extent of Aztec sacrifice, and most of them are unreliable, or contradicted by other sources. Honestly, they probably were no worse than any other group with ritualized human sacrifice.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Spoonist »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Bilbo wrote:The Aztecs used human sacrifice on a very regular basis as a foundation of their religion and waged war specifically to gain victims to mutilate and sacrifice.
The problem is there is incredibly little evidence. All the primary accounts come from the Spaniards ... Honestly, they probably were no worse than any other group with ritualized human sacrifice.
While it's true that it was exaggerated by the spaniards, the archeological evidence contradicts your claim. Aztec culture sacrificed a lot more stuff than other mesoamerican cultures, including humans. We see this surrounding their temples and holy sites.
Its also quite clear that the Aztecs where really successful at conquering neighbouring states/tribes, combine that with the local culture of thanking the gods for victory with generic sacrifices, then they where in a position to sacrifice significantly more people than any before them in south america.
Even when compared to other cultures that implemented human sacrifce they are in a league of their own, simply because they had more subjugated people to do it to and an effective religious incentive to do it to POWs as well. Vikings for instance thought that POWs where worth less than your slaves, or even better yet a volunteering chief.

But in the context of the OP, is it more evil to take POWs and sacrifice them to the gods (something that might have been honorable for the loser) or to crucify them on the spot without any religious context, or to have POWs in camps without food, or simply razing whole cities and killing all citizens, or using them for sport in victory games?

That is where the propaganda that you mention sets in. Most people consider it worse to be sacrificed for religious reasons, than to be simply killed outright, or by being forced to work until you die, or thrown to animals for sport. Which is an emotional response and not necessarily a logical one.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Bilbo »

Spoonist wrote: That is where the propaganda that you mention sets in. Most people consider it worse to be sacrificed for religious reasons, than to be simply killed outright, or by being forced to work until you die, or thrown to animals for sport. Which is an emotional response and not necessarily a logical one.
The difference is hard to explain and I will probably say it wrong. Sport, worked to death, simple execution, these are all means to deal with captured prisoners taken in battle. It was a solution to the problem of what to do with all these prisoners that if you kept them as slaves could be dangerous as former warriors and if you released them will probably just end up fighting you again. The execution of the prisoners was not the reason one went to war.

That is where it appears the Aztecs were different. The Aztecs went to war to conquer you so that they could then sacrifice you to their gods in some gruesome manner. That is a difference that sets the Aztecs apart in their brutality. A soldier kills because its necessary to carry out the mission, defeat the enemy, win the war. The murderer kills you because he wants to see you die.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Samuel »

Didn't the Aztecs sacrifice people because they believed the gods needed blood in order to provide rain? I don't think it would have been viewed any differently than other methods of dealing with prisoners.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Elfdart »

The Spanish, like other Europeans, were also fond of human sacrifice on a massive scale. They burned multitudes of witches, Jews and heretics to please their god.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

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Bilbo wrote:That is where it appears the Aztecs were different. The Aztecs went to war to conquer you so that they could then sacrifice you to their gods in some gruesome manner.
False. There is no archeological evidence for this so this is part of the spanish propaganda. They did not make sacrifices on such a scale that they needed to take "extra" prisoners.

Also the "gruesome manner" comment betrays another prejudice. It was simple slaughter, nothing gruesome about it and a relative minimum of pain.
European torture practices or punishments, that is gruesome. We actually invented new unique devices to inflict maximum amount of pain, to the level of making a trade and industry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:M ... of_torture
The mesoamericas had almost no such devices until introduced to them by europeans.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Thanas »

Stuart wrote: It is perfectly arguable that in other famines of the 19th century, the British did nothing to ameliorate the disaster but then nobody else had either and it's arguable that the British simply didn't know what to do.

Doing nothing to ameliorate the disaster is one thing, withholding food from starving people so you can have the greatest orgy in the century is another, as well as hiking up tax rates during a famine. This can also not be excused by simple incompetence or cluelessness - it does not take a genius to know that if you raise taxes during a famine, it will not help the problem.

Also, it does in no way address the real problem of British rule - arbitrarily throwing in ethnicities when it suited them etc.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Bilbo »

Spoonist wrote: Also the "gruesome manner" comment betrays another prejudice. It was simple slaughter, nothing gruesome about it and a relative minimum of pain.
When the Aztecs sacrificed people to Huitzilopochtli (the god with war like aspects) the victim would be placed on a sacrificial stone. Then the priest would cut through the abdomen with an obsidian or flint blade. The heart would be torn out still beating and held towards the sky in honor to the Sun-God; the body would be carried away and either cremated or given to the warrior responsible for the capture of the victim.

Yep your right, sounds almost completely painless. :roll:
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

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Bilbo wrote:Yep your right, sounds almost completely painless.
:wtf:
I will let you read through my post again and think about it. If you after that still think that this comment of yours is worthy of a reply I will do so in full.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

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Thanas wrote: Also, it does in no way address the real problem of British rule - arbitrarily throwing in ethnicities when it suited them etc.
That's a troubling topic that Gary Brecher goes over in some detail with his actually pretty decent article on the bad long-term effects Britain's divide and rule policies had over just one part of India alone, Sri-Lanka, directly leading to the present day problem with the Tamil Tigers:

When Pigs Fly–and Scold: Brits Lecturing Sri Lanka!
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Bilbo wrote:When the Aztecs sacrificed people to Huitzilopochtli (the god with war like aspects) the victim would be placed on a sacrificial stone. Then the priest would cut through the abdomen with an obsidian or flint blade. The heart would be torn out still beating and held towards the sky in honor to the Sun-God; the body would be carried away and either cremated or given to the warrior responsible for the capture of the victim.

Yep your right, sounds almost completely painless. :roll:
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(But seriously, that movie would be more accurate. Your quote is taken from a Wikipedia article, whose source is ... Bernardino de Sahagun, a Franciscan missionary. Who, despite his admirable efforts at preserving the Florentine Codex, still had the primary goal of converting the Mesoamerican people, and thus demonizing the Aztec religion. Yup, that's a really reliable source ...)
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Spoonist wrote:While it's true that it was exaggerated by the spaniards, the archeological evidence contradicts your claim. Aztec culture sacrificed a lot more stuff than other mesoamerican cultures, including humans. We see this surrounding their temples and holy sites.
Just out of curiosity, what archeological evidence are you referring to specifically? This topic isn't my strong point, I am mostly just remembering stuff I learned from my travels through Mexico a couple of years ago. IIRC, as rulers of a large empire with lots of vassals and subjects, the Aztecs took intimidation into account, and would exaggerate accounts of their own brutality as a means of "keeping the local systems in line."
Spoonist wrote:Its also quite clear that the Aztecs where really successful at conquering neighbouring states/tribes, combine that with the local culture of thanking the gods for victory with generic sacrifices, then they where in a position to sacrifice significantly more people than any before them in south america.
That's certainly true, I wasn't trying to say that they didn't perform human sacrifice at all.
Spoonist wrote:Even when compared to other cultures that implemented human sacrifce they are in a league of their own, simply because they had more subjugated people to do it to and an effective religious incentive to do it to POWs as well. Vikings for instance thought that POWs where worth less than your slaves, or even better yet a volunteering chief.
No argument here.
Spoonist wrote:But in the context of the OP, is it more evil to take POWs and sacrifice them to the gods (something that might have been honorable for the loser) or to crucify them on the spot without any religious context, or to have POWs in camps without food, or simply razing whole cities and killing all citizens, or using them for sport in victory games?

That is where the propaganda that you mention sets in. Most people consider it worse to be sacrificed for religious reasons, than to be simply killed outright, or by being forced to work until you die, or thrown to animals for sport. Which is an emotional response and not necessarily a logical one.
The religious aspect of this kind of thing is certainly interesting. From a utilitarian standpoint, the intent is irrelevant, just the net effect. So is it worse if the murderer thinks he is doing it for a good cause or if he accepts he is truely evil?
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Samuel »

The religious aspect of this kind of thing is certainly interesting. From a utilitarian standpoint, the intent is irrelevant, just the net effect. So is it worse if the murderer thinks he is doing it for a good cause or if he accepts he is truely evil?
The first. He will fight alot harder if he thinks the killings are needed to prevent the Sun from dying. By contrast you can deter homicidal sociopaths by watching them so they know they can't get away with their actions.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Simon_Jester »

From a utilitarian standpoint, yes; but from a strict utilitarian standpoint there's not much reason to distinguish between first degree murder and manslaughter. Nor is there any reason to have an insanity defense. And yet (at least in my culture) we do...

In a system where intents matter, killing someone because you're batshit insane (or your whole culture is) and you (or your whole culture) think the sun needs more blood to keep shining at least offers a motive for violence other than "die motherfucker die!" It's possible to have a civilization that sacrifices people to the sun god on a regular basis, because it isn't an absolute negation of the norms that a human society needs to work.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Iosef Cross »

stormthebeaches wrote:
It is estimated that between 20 to 50 million people died under Stalin's rule:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin
50 million? That can't be right, the USSR only had a population of about 160 million. Last time I checked the Stalin death toll is placed at 20 million. 50 million is just absurd.
The population of the USSR in 1940 was 198 million. In 1916, the population of the Russian empire was 181.6 million, on about the same borders (not exactly the same, but near enought to have a less than 10% error in magnitude). However, with the natural growth tendency of the population of about 1.5% per year, the population of the Russian empire should have been 259.6 million in 1940. Hence, we have a 60 million excess deaths between 1916 and 1940.

Most of these deaths were caused by war, revolution and hunger. The total number of people killed by Stalin consciously, like the Nazis did, was certainly less than 10 million.
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Iosef Cross »

PeZook wrote:
Iosef Cross wrote: Actually, they (the Nazis) originally envisioned sending the Jews to Madagascar. Later they planned to use the Jews as construction slave workers for infrastructure projects in the conquered Soviet Union. However, after the failure of Barbarossa, they changed their plan again and decided to simply kill them all.
I guess that's why they cut food rations in conquered Eastern territories to starving levels right away in 1939?

There is an exhibit in the Auschwitz Museum about September 1939 ; The walls are plastered with reproductions of Nazi memos and internal documents discussing the ways to best physically destroy the Polish nation. While they may not have had a clearly outlined policy of extermination back then, the attitude was present just fine and was being applied in practice.

As for the death toll: remember the sheer tempo of destruction. They killed circa 10 million people in five years ; That's 2 million per year, 5,5 thousand a day, 225 an hour or about 4 people every minute on average.

Give them a victory in WWII and fifteen more years and see if you can feel evil chill down your spine. For most people before, it took them decades or centuries to reach those awesome bodycounts.
Yep. If they won the war they would have killed tens of millions of civilians after it. The Nazis simply didn't care about the lives of the peoples of Eastern Europe. They though of them like us think of plagues that infest the land, and we use pesticides. They used gas chambers to exterminate these plagues, so to clear the lebensraum for the German people.

The objective was the extermination or dislocation of the native population of the Eastern Europe, they would do what was cheaper.

Here we have a body count per year of the 20th century democides:
Image
Source: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-1900.htm
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

"Democides"? Rummell is a far right lunatic who blamed Obama for having an insufficiently democratic evangelistic (at the point of a sword) foreign policy thereby delaying the Marxist utopia end of history universal peace of democratic nations. He's also a propagandist who doesn't count war crimes by "good guy" (read: American-aligned) regimes, and systemically under-represents and underestimates the death tolls of authoritarian states (Indonesia in East Timor, etc.), because that does not fit with his totalitarianism-as-the-font-of-all-evil thesis.

And on Stalin and the famines, if one credits the British with industrializing and modernizing such that eventually they came to an end, so did the Bolshevik rule finally the termination of the Russian famines going back throughout the Czarist and medieval era.
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Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
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Re: Were the Nazis the absolute height of historical evil?

Post by Elfdart »

Iosef Cross wrote:The population of the USSR in 1940 was 198 million. In 1916, the population of the Russian empire was 181.6 million, on about the same borders (not exactly the same, but near enought to have a less than 10% error in magnitude). However, with the natural growth tendency of the population of about 1.5% per year, the population of the Russian empire should have been 259.6 million in 1940. Hence, we have a 60 million excess deaths between 1916 and 1940.

Most of these deaths were caused by war, revolution and hunger. The total number of people killed by Stalin consciously, like the Nazis did, was certainly less than 10 million.
Jerry Hough and Merle Fainsod did an extensive study of the demographics of the Soviet Union and found evidence for 4-5 million excess deaths. Robert Conquest and other practitioners of Farrakhan Math came up with their absurd numbers by assuming almost zero infant mortality AND by assuming that the typical family in the Soviet Union had seven kids -both assumptions being ridiculous.
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