The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Edward Yee]

The Demons can use a lot bigger weapons than what humans can use. So some type of rifle firing a 20mm round. The weapon sounds easy to manufacturer. I also remember something about not wanting to give the Demons weapons that where to advanced. Let the humans control the full auto weapons and the Demons will stick with weapons that fire a lot slower.

I recall this discussion; after glancing at the line where Drippy "clipped it to the end of his rifle," I'm guessing that the demon-issue rifles are using bayonet lugs -- which, since they should allow firing (however unwieldy), is another mark in favor of the bayonet against the sword and spear, no?

Regarding the bayonet lug question, I was wondering regarding human weapons; as an example, the general in charge of revising Army training noted that several of the new rifles -- such as the Mk.16/Mk.17 "SCAR" -- no longer even have bayonet lugs, as a rationale for cutting down on bayonet training.

[CaptainChewbacca]

On the other hand, all demons have been using spears and tridents for thousands of years, so I don't think they need much bayonet training either.

[Stuart Mackey]

Nice bit! It looks like Stuart is settling into one chapter a week, to drive us all insane, I'm sure

Driving? Some of us are already there.

Good bayonet drills will beat a sword most of the time.

And a well used Taiaha will beat bayonet

[bogy_shashav]

On the other hand, all demons have been using spears and tridents for thousands of years, so I don't think they need much bayonet training either.

Well its not exactly the same thing. Tridents and spears can be used with one hand, while a rifle takes two. Also you have to learn to use both ends of the rifle to fight properly in melee, while a spear is...ahem pointy and usable only on one side.

[[R_H]]

On the other hand, all demons have been using spears and tridents for thousands of years, so I don't think they need much bayonet training either.

Well its not exactly the same thing. Tridents and spears can be used with one hand, while a rifle takes two. Also you have to learn to use both ends of the rifle to fight properly in melee, while a spear is...ahem pointy and usable only on one side.

On the other hand, like Chewie pointed out, they already are experienced melee fighters.

[Ruadhan2300]

true, but the thing is, its a new variant on the concept of the spear for them. even if they're well practiced with spears and swords, they still need to practice with this new concept...imagine someone trying to throw a bayonetted rifle at an enemy....

[CaptainChewbacca]

true, but the thing is, its a new variant on the concept of the spear for them. even if they're well practiced with spears and swords, they still need to practice with this new concept...imagine someone trying to throw a bayonetted rifle at an enemy....

But far less practice than any human.

[JBG]

true, but the thing is, its a new variant on the concept of the spear for them. even if they're well practiced with spears and swords, they still need to practice with this new concept...imagine someone trying to throw a bayonetted rifle at an enemy....

Not all "spears" are thrown. Think of a kontos or the spear used by the classic Greek hoplites for example. The demonic trident, sans lightning bolt effects, was effectively a stabbing spear. The trick is to use a short stout stabbing spear, at its rear, as a stave.

[EuelB]

Yet another tasty chapter for us story starved readers. Thanks again!

Helicopter Base, Third Legion. Heaven
She led her element of three helicopters down into a valley, the young trees underneath bending and swaying as the MH-6s passed. The map showed it leading to a low ridge with the center of the Angelic column just over the other side. In other words, a perfect set-up for the kind of ambush the MH-6 was designed to execute. Overhead, Kim saw a flash of light, surprisingly yellowish in the brilliant white light of Heaven. Reflection from the cockpit of a fighter, probably a Lawn Dart she thought. The filthy atmosphere in Hell had been rough on single-engined aircraft. After the initial panic had subsided, they'd been pulled out and flying missions in Hell had been assigned to twin-engined birds. Here in Heaven it was different and the single-engined fighters had come back into their own. The yellow reflection was almost certainly from the gold-inlaid cockpit canopy of an F-16.

I've got an idea for some fan art, may I post it in this thread? After running it by you, of course.

Dripankeothorofenex shouldered his Martini-Henry, pushed down the lever underneath and inserted a 20mm round into the chamber. Idly, he wondered what an MG151 was for that was the gun this round had been originally been used in.

As a SF/history/weapons geek, you've made my day. A Daemon from Hell, in the service of Julius Caesar, using a (redesigned) British rifle from the Zulu Wars that fires an autocannon round from WW2, against Angels in Heaven. Then again, this whole series is made of that, and win...

"We fought off the attack. Cost us but we did it. First Daemonic down the line is in trouble, so we're hitting the force attacking them from the side. Like a door swinging open. We'll show them what Romans are made of."

"I'd rather show them what Angels are made of." Dripankeothorofenex thought again of how he had killed the Elohim with his bayonet. Around him the surviving members of the squad laughed and cheered at his joke. Third Legion was advancing into its counter-attack and a legend was being born,

Great line! Hopefully we'll be hearing more about Drippy and his fellow Roman Daemons?

[Ruadhan2300]

of course, of course, just saying, its not wildly outside what they're used to, but its sufficently different that they need to train with it. already knowing how to handle various melee weapons doesn't automatically make them good with a bayonet, that's sorta what I meant. I think I got a little misinterpreted.
and yah, I'm well aware that most spears are intended as stabbing weapons with reach. rather than for throwing. but the image of a demon hurling a bayonetted rifle as an impromtu throwing spear makes me laugh.

[Stuart]

I've got an idea for some fan art, may I post it in this thread? After running it by you, of course.

Go ahead, fan art is no problem. It's only stories I need to look at first 9and then only to make sure they're compatible with canon.

As a SF/history/weapons geek, you've made my day. A Daemon from Hell, in the service of Julius Caesar, using a (redesigned) British rifle from the Zulu Wars that fires an autocannon round from WW2, against Angels in Heaven. Then again, this whole series is made of that, and win.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll redouble my efforts to get the next part out.

Great line! Hopefully we'll be hearing more about Drippy and his fellow Roman Daemons?

You will. Drippy and the Third legion will return. All together now. Tertius! Tertius! Tertius!

[Scorpion]

but the image of a demon hurling a bayonetted rifle as an impromtu throwing spear makes me laugh.

An angel pinned to a wall by a daemon's rifle, like William Tell's apple. I like it.

I don't know why, but I can't imagine the Daemon's wearing nothing but WWI French trench coats... Is it just me?

[Sea Skimmer]

As for digging their tanks in, it makes some sense. It definitely lowers one's silhouette and puts additional mass between your hull and any incoming fire. Sadly for them, it did little to mitigate damage from the air (nevermind the accuracy of modern western MBTs).

I heard that the sabots zipped right through the berms the Iraqis were hiding behind. Staying stationary brings the huge disadvantage of losing mobility, and getting out flanked.

It might have worked better against HEAT rounds, maybe. A kinetic penetrator that is designed to crack several inches (or more) of hardened steel will laugh at loose rock dust, which is effectively all steel is. A HEAT round might have detonated in the sand dune, in which case it would have been utterly useless.

The main reason to dig in a tank is to protect the suspension from artillery fire and cluster bombs. For this the Iraqi berms worked very well, and meant that the only effective air attacks on tanks were those using precision guided weapons. The typical Coalition jet did not have a LGB capability, and other precision guided weapons (mainly missiles) were limited in supply because they cost so much.

Digging in also does a very good job of protecting the lower frontal hull armor, which is weak on any tank. The berm thickness itself offers little protection from direct fire... but the part of the tank that is actually below ground level is becomes nearly immune to being hit. The act of passing through soil or sand bends the trajectory of a bomb or shell upward. Well constructed tank positions don't have a berm because of that, they are completely dug into the ground and the spoil is hauled away and dumped in a concealed location. The Iraqis couldn't do that because the sand was too weak to let them dig deep pits, and the desert offered no place to hide dirt. Its much easier to do so in Europe, when the soil is moist and firm and you have a lot of tree cover.

Edit here, this says everything, the Iraqis didn't or couldn't do most of it and faced unopposed aerial reconnaissance, so digging in failed for them.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... p4_007.gif

[EuelB]

but the image of a demon hurling a bayonetted rifle as an impromtu throwing spear makes me laugh.

An angel pinned to a wall by a daemon's rifle, like William Tell's apple. I like it.

Who wouldn't? Of course, the Daemon would get chewed out by his human superior, even if it was an act of desperation. Then another character walks up and says something like, "If its stupid and it works, it ain't stupid."

I don't know why, but I can't imagine the Daemon's wearing nothing but WWI French trench coats... Is it just me?

Trench coats would be dandy for camouflage, but I'm thinking lots of web gear for all those lovely 20 mm rounds and grenades. Speaking of grenades, the Daemons should be able to throw a 5 Kg bomb with the same ease as a human soldier can toss a 1 kilo grenade, if not more. I suppose someone's gotten the idea in story, but what with the logjam of logistics, we might not see anything like this until Lords Of War... (Hint, hint, Stuart.)

[CaptainChewbacca]

To be fair, I think the demons also wear loincloths.

[bogy_shashav]

To be fair, I think the demons also wear loincloths.

You think the humans would be able to put up with seeing their(supposedly barbed) private parts juggling all around? I can already think of one particular helicopter pilot that might just snap and go crackin'.

[JBG]

Nice bit! It looks like Stuart is settling into one chapter a week, to drive us all insane, I'm sure

Driving? Some of us are already there.

Good bayonet drills will beat a sword most of the time.

And a well used Taiaha will beat bayonet

Hehe.

Kiwis have proved to be formidable enough with the bayonet in the past as it is! With Taiaha .... or anyone sufficiently well versed in the Maori martial arts...

[Ilya Muromets]

Who wouldn't? Of course, the Daemon would get chewed out by his human superior, even if it was an act of desperation. Then another character walks up and says something like, "If its stupid and it works, it ain't stupid."

I think military men would subscribe more to the "If it's stupid and it works, you were damn lucky. Don't push it." school of thought.

[Stuart]

Trench coats would be dandy for camouflage, but I'm thinking lots of web gear for all those lovely 20 mm rounds and grenades. Speaking of grenades, the Daemons should be able to throw a 5 Kg bomb with the same ease as a human soldier can toss a 1 kilo grenade, if not more. I suppose someone's gotten the idea in story, but what with the logjam of logistics, we might not see anything like this until Lords Of War... (Hint, hint, Stuart.)

Daemonic troops wear oversized versions of human BDUs and suitably modified body armor (for example the standard helmet modified to allow for horns). Webbing is MOLLE strengthened and enlarged to allow for the extra size of daemons and their heavier loads. Daemonic troops are really useful in artillery batteries as loaders since they can do things like carry 155mm rounds single-handed.

Daemonic dress codes have changed a lot; Lugasharmanaska is a good example. originally, her 'standard' dress was a robe with her naken underneath it. Now, she tends to wear a dress under that robe.

[Ronsu]

New guy here! Lurked the board for a number of years and like many others I was compelled to finally register thanks to this story.

TSW must have really catched my fancy since I´ve absent mindedly started doodling demons and guns recently

Here´s Dripankeothorofenex regaling his Harrowing Encounter With The Sparkliest Horror Of The Angelic Host to his new comrades-in-arms at the post-battle celebration.

[Ruadhan2300]

hey Stuart, as a bit of a budding writer myself (for which read, I have a few chapters of a novel sitting on the backburner while I work through university) I have to ask..do you have an coherent image in your mind of what every moment of the story is like?
I mean, as you say, Luga is now wearing a dress under her robes, the daemonic troops wear enlarged and reinforced webbing and so on. these are things which aren't necessarily made totally clear in the story, but you're able to say them as facts, sounds like theirs a fair bit which is either on the backburner waiting for its turn to be said, or you have a wider frame of mental view than we get to see

man, that was a bit incoherent.
one of the things I've been doing as I read the story is wikipedia-ing the various specific pieces of military hardware and the named RL characters. for example, I had no idea what General Petraeus looked like until I wiki'd him. in fact, I'd never heard of him until this story. my university is kinda insulating me from world news...honestly I imagined the good general a fair bit younger. not sure why.

Edit: oh hey and Ronsu, welcome to the boards, and fantastic debut artwork there
I want to see more where that came from.

[Narkis]

Why the sudden change from Latin to Greek

Probably reference to Catholic Church tradition. "Kyrie Eleison!! " is from the Mass. It means "Lord have mercy." In the Latin Tridentine Mass, the Kyrie was still in Greek. Now it's in the vernacular.

Thanks, didn't know the Catholics used to use Greek, and the Greeks definitely don't use latin. Hence the confusion at the language change. And I know what it means. The location on the left isn't a lie.

[Stuart]

hey Stuart, as a bit of a budding writer myself (for which read, I have a few chapters of a novel sitting on the backburner while I work through university) I have to ask..do you have an coherent image in your mind of what every moment of the story is like? I mean, as you say, Luga is now wearing a dress under her robes, the daemonic troops wear enlarged and reinforced webbing and so on. these are things which aren't necessarily made totally clear in the story, but you're able to say them as facts, sounds like theirs a fair bit which is either on the backburner waiting for its turn to be said, or you have a wider frame of mental view than we get to see

Usually before I write a story, I have the plot line sorted out in fine detail and pictures of all the main characters (real ones if they are real people, nearest-I-can-find if they aren't). For example, in the TBOverse stories, Igrat looks like Vanessa Ferlito (with normal lips). I have a backstory worked out so that everything fits together. I didn't do that with Armageddon and it shows - which is why the book is taking so long to get ready for press.

[Stuart]

New guy here! Lurked the board for a number of years and like many others I was compelled to finally register thanks to this story.

TSW must have really catched my fancy since I´ve absent mindedly started doodling demons and guns recently

Here´s Dripankeothorofenex regaling his Harrowing Encounter With The Sparkliest Horror Of The Angelic Host to his new comrades-in-arms at the post-battle celebration.

Oh, that is really good. I love it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think the best part is the matching tattoos.