Democrat Lies about Being in Vietnam, People Care

[Patrick Degan]

Neither can conceivably be classed as "foreign" deployment.

If we go by absence from CONUS for any period of definite time; then you'd have to include a not insignificant fraction of the US Navy -- becuase the USN does a lot of deployments which begin and end in Norfolk/Pearl and cover a lot of foreign territory.

There is that argument. The counterargument, which the VFW might put up as reasoning, is that the crew of an SSBN go out on every patrol under the expectation that they may find themselves in a wartime situation on that patrol and will in that case fulfill their function. Their entire purpose, after all, is to be in position to fire their missiles when that order comes down. The surface navy do not go out on sorties under that automatic assumption in the same way an SSBN crew must do, and they most often do not go in towards conflict zones unless a surface combat group is being specifically deployed for action in one of them.

[MKSheppard]

The counterargument, which the VFW might put up as reasoning, is that the crew of an SSBN go out on every patrol under the expectation that they may find themselves in a wartime situation on that patrol and will in that case fulfill their function.

So do missilemen and bomber crewmen when they enter their silo LCCs or "the hole" next to the flightline.

The surface navy do not go out on sorties under that automatic assumption in the same way an SSBN crew must do, and they most often do not go in towards conflict zones unless a surface combat group is being specifically deployed for action in one of them.

Wrong. SSBN's don't go towards combat zones. Their entire rationale is simply....to disappear in the atlantic or pacific, never surfacing for their entire patrol; only coming to periscope depth to take periodic star checks with the periscope to verify the INS.

I mean, these guys leave port, and then spend three months driving circles in patrol zones in the atlantic or pacific and then going back home.

[Einzige]

It's hilarious that Shep needs to defend the honor of his fellow chickenhawk. I suppose like (incompetent) really does attract to like (incompetent).

[MKSheppard]

I suppose in Einzige world, successfully accomplishing 278.2 hours as a pilot during 176 sorties in a very hot delta wing aircraft is the provenance of the incompetent.

[Flagg]

It's hilarious that Shep needs to defend the honor of his fellow chickenhawk. I suppose like (incompetent) really does attract to like (incompetent).

Last I checked the military didn't take homosexuals. Or deaf guys.

[Patrick Degan]

The counterargument, which the VFW might put up as reasoning, is that the crew of an SSBN go out on every patrol under the expectation that they may find themselves in a wartime situation on that patrol and will in that case fulfill their function.

So do missilemen and bomber crewmen when they enter their silo LCCs or "the hole" next to the flightline.

Again —missileers and bomber crews aren't being deployed off CONUS. Boomer crews are.

The surface navy do not go out on sorties under that automatic assumption in the same way an SSBN crew must do, and they most often do not go in towards conflict zones unless a surface combat group is being specifically deployed for action in one of them.

Wrong. SSBN's don't go towards combat zones. Their entire rationale is simply....to disappear in the atlantic or pacific, never surfacing for their entire patrol; only coming to periscope depth to take periodic star checks with the periscope to verify the INS.

I mean, these guys leave port, and then spend three months driving circles in patrol zones in the atlantic or pacific and then going back home.

By definition, the ocean is their war zone if the order to fire those missiles comes down. This is really not that hard to work out.

[Simon_Jester]

Wrong. SSBN's don't go towards combat zones. Their entire rationale is simply....to disappear in the atlantic or pacific, never surfacing for their entire patrol...

Same goes for special forces behind enemy lines, often enough. Artillery spotters and forward air controllers are meant not to be seen, too. There are a fair number of combat troops who aren't supposed to get shot at, and for whom the mark of a successful mission is that the enemy never figures out where they are. Or, in some cases, whether they were even there.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Same goes for special forces behind enemy lines, often enough. Artillery spotters and forward air controllers are meant not to be seen, too. There are a fair number of combat troops who aren't supposed to get shot at, and for whom the mark of a successful mission is that the enemy never figures out where they are. Or, in some cases, whether they were even there.

Though SSBNs are deployed in peacetime, whereas special forces units aren't deployed to foreign territory (except for exercises) until there is a combat situation. That's a big difference, IMO.

[MKSheppard]

Again —missileers and bomber crews aren't being deployed off CONUS. Boomer crews are.

Actually, no they haven't. Not since we retired the Poisedon/Polaris boats; which required them to be forward based in Scotland and Spain due to the short range of their existing missiles.

Now; they're homeported in Washington State and I believe in South Carolina -- and they begin and end their patrols there -- they sail from South Carolina/Washington, spend 90 days going around a predetermined set of squares in the Atlantic or Pacific; and then come back home without ever surfacing unless it's an emergency.

By this rationale; we need to consider everyone who flew airborne alert in SAC a veteran, since they would take off from bases all over the Continental united states; and then circle points on a map about thirty to sixty minutes away from their targets, waiting for the go order.

By definition, the ocean is their war zone if the order to fire those missiles comes down. This is really not that hard to work out.

So is every Strategic Air Command airbase if the order to execute their warplans is given. There's a reason MITO was practiced. You can see the people running from plane to plane, and the cartridge starters for the engines firing -- and they all know they got to get this stuff right -- because in about 20-30 minutes; the temperature's going to go up by a few...million degrees if it was for real.

[Patrick Degan]

Again —missileers and bomber crews aren't being deployed off CONUS. Boomer crews are.

Actually, no they haven't. Not since we retired the Poisedon/Polaris boats; which required them to be forward based in Scotland and Spain due to the short range of their existing missiles.

Now; they're homeported in Washington State and I believe in South Carolina -- and they begin and end their patrols there -- they sail from South Carolina/Washington, spend 90 days going around a predetermined set of squares in the Atlantic or Pacific; and then come back home without ever surfacing unless it's an emergency.

Which is a nice bit of trivia but doesn't even address the argument about deployment outside of CONUS while on deterrent patrol.

By this rationale; we need to consider everyone who flew airborne alert in SAC a veteran, since they would take off from bases all over the Continental united states; and then circle points on a map about thirty to sixty minutes away from their targets, waiting for the go order.

The issue is whether or not they would qualify as veterans in a conflict zone outside CONUS as per the VFW's rationale, not whether or not they would qualify as military veterans period. Furthermore, SAC crews orbiting on airborne alert did not spend the same amount of operational time in their patrol zones as that of SSBN crews.

By definition, the ocean is their war zone if the order to fire those missiles comes down. This is really not that hard to work out.

So is every Strategic Air Command airbase if the order to execute their warplans is given. There's a reason MITO was practiced. You can see the people running from plane to plane, and the cartridge starters for the engines firing -- and they all know they got to get this stuff right -- because in about 20-30 minutes; the temperature's going to go up by a few...million degrees if it was for real.

And again, a nice bit of trivia but one which does not address the issue under discussion. Please stop dragging red herrings into this topic.

[Flagg]

What the hell? How did this thread devolve into shit flinging over whose deployment dick is bigger?

[That NOS Guy]

What the hell? How did this thread devolve into shit flinging over whose deployment dick is bigger?

Is "Shep" a valid answer?

I think Shep has let SAC worship really go to his head on this one. We get it, Shep furiously masturbates to an oversized picture of Curtiss Lemay at 6 hour intervals throughout the day, that is not surprising. What is surprising however is that this seems like a very straight-forward issue with military logic and Shep can't deal with it. The idea that flight crews deployed on orbit missions which were largely over friendly airspace anyway qualify in time spent out of country with SSBN crews is ludicrous in its entirety.

[Elfdart]

What's funnier still is watching Yellow Rain Man trying to make stateside pilots (who not only never heard a shot fired in anger, but probably never so much as interacted with someone who heard a shot fired in anger) into Audie Murphy or John Basilone.

[hunter5]

Again —missileers and bomber crews aren't being deployed off CONUS. Boomer crews are.

Actually, no they haven't. Not since we retired the Poisedon/Polaris boats; which required them to be forward based in Scotland and Spain due to the short range of their existing missiles.

Now; they're homeported in Washington State and I believe in South Carolina -- and they begin and end their patrols there -- they sail from South Carolina/Washington, spend 90 days going around a predetermined set of squares in the Atlantic or Pacific; and then come back home without ever surfacing unless it's an emergency.

By this rationale; we need to consider everyone who flew airborne alert in SAC a veteran, since they would take off from bases all over the Continental united states; and then circle points on a map about thirty to sixty minutes away from their targets, waiting for the go order.

By definition, the ocean is their war zone if the order to fire those missiles comes down. This is really not that hard to work out.

So is every Strategic Air Command airbase if the order to execute their warplans is given. There's a reason MITO was practiced. You can see the people running from plane to plane, and the cartridge starters for the engines firing -- and they all know they got to get this stuff right -- because in about 20-30 minutes; the temperature's going to go up by a few...million degrees if it was for real.

Just a little nitpick the sub base here in South Carolina shut down years ago. Now all the boomers on the East Coast are split between Kings Bay, Norfolk, and Grotten (probably not spelled right but somewhere in Connecticut).

[Ziggy Stardust]

Now all the boomers on the East Coast are split between Kings Bay, Norfolk, and Grotten (probably not spelled right but somewhere in Connecticut).

Groton, CT is where the General Dynamics facilities are that construct submarines for the Navy. The actual sub base is across the river in New London (where there is also a very nice museum dedicated to the USN submarine force). The Pentagon tried to close it in 2005, actually, but at the last minute decided to leave it open.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hey now, everyone knows that the VFW is filled with liberal pansies and not career military professionals and war-ravaged survivors, nope, nosiree.

[Lord Pounder]

A question about the matter at hand. I know leaks and shit stirring are common in any countries political elections, but how often does a campaign manager admit that they are responsible? Linda McMahon has a lot of class and it's all low.